| Author | Message | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2002 |
So what are you saying by this little switch the subject routine, that your Evercar that runs forever and costs virtualy nothing isn't even on the drawing board yet? Why not? ;-) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1333 Registered: 8-2002 |
i'm definitely not taking siDES in this argument, as i wouldn't have a leg to stand on, BUT... if either one of you Do DESign something, can you please include cup holders...? Thanks  | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 638 Registered: 5-2002 |
JRV said: Check my Profile...they build-em and I fix-em". In other words, somebody else does the engineering, designing, manufacturing, assembling, testing, marketing, and selling. You just fix them for the rich owners. JRV, since your're such a big dog go-getter, (even though you haven't posted the address and phone number of your sportscar manufacturing facility), maybe you could get together with Hubert and start manufacturing his upgraded Enzo. By all means, show all of us stupid people how a real HOT DOG gets things done. And when you've made a million dollars, maybe you can afford to buy yourself a real personality. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 601 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>if your attitude wasn't so full of venom, maybe you wouldn't have misunderstood my statement.<< you a therapist/physcologist/internet mind reader/Ms. Cleo now along with your other talents? >>>Didn't Enzo himself say the same things that I have said? Didn't Enzo himself say that the sale of street cars is what financed his racing efforts? << The MAN said that 40 years ago ! So what relivance does it have now? >>Everybody else understood what I was saying. How come JRV always thinks everybody else is full of hogwash? << I know hogwash & talking heads when I run across them sport...I'm in the game, a Player, A Participant, with Skin on the line....not simply a dreamer talking about coulda, shoulda, woulda! >I didn't say that a Ferrari COULDN'T be a race car, I was just saying that in the REAL world, most Ferraris are bought by the wealthy public and are driven on the street, << Uhhh...you left out your own words "should go 100K miles without a tune-up" Hello ...wake UPPPPP...the Million Mile EverCar hasn't been built yet...BY ANYBODY!! You think a Manufacturer should Allow People To "ENDANGER Their LIVES" by telling them don't worry you don't ever need to come back for a look see???? Well there's your Big Chance to build the better mousetrap sport....forget about the liabilty of endagering peoples lives by neglecting to have inspections done! >>Can you please give us the TELEPHONE NUMBER and ADDRESS of YOUR sportscar automobile manufacturing plant? And how many sportscars does YOUR plant produce each year? << Check my Profile...they build-em and I fix-em, and while I may see better ways to do things being on the firing line I don't live in a dream world that it should be different to placate my fantasies, dreams, whims or wishes! >>>Hey JRV, news flash for you. I HAVE a job and THIS is my work computer. You don't think that I would waste my off time replying to your rude comments, do you? <<< Well sport I don't mind taking a few minutes of my own time, no pay, to respond to your constant bellyaching about things not being the way "you" think they should be! Now...why don't you spend 1/2 the time you spend complaining building this fantasy machine 'you think' others should build or spend some time making enough money to afford to pay what things cost instead of fantasizing & bellyaching about why they should be cheaper? Get Real, Get Some Skin in Da Game! Hokey Dokey! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 637 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey JRV, if your attitude wasn't so full of venom, maybe you wouldn't have misunderstood my statement. I said "in the real world, they are STREET cars, NOT race cars." I didn't say that a Ferrari COULDN'T be a race car, I was just saying that in the REAL world, most Ferraris are bought by the wealthy public and are driven on the street, not raced on the track. Otherwise, how could the Ferrari company stay in business? Didn't Enzo himself say the same things that I have said? Didn't Enzo himself say that the sale of street cars is what financed his racing efforts? Therefore that means that many more Ferraris are purchased for street driving than for track racing. Everybody else understood what I was saying. How come JRV always thinks everybody else is full of hogwash? JRV said: "Show the world how it should be done...I hear your kinda BS far to often....Do Something About It If You Think You Can...Which We Know BS Artists Never Do...because they don't have what it takes (It takes Real Men bubba)..." Hey JRV, as I recall from your earlier postings, you were demanding to know the telephone number and address of some California repair shop. Can you please give us the TELEPHONE NUMBER and ADDRESS of YOUR sportscar automobile manufacturing plant? And how many sportscars does YOUR plant produce each year? JRV also said: "And damn, get a real job so you can afford some of the finers things in life instead of bitching about how much they cost!" Hey JRV, news flash for you. I HAVE a job and THIS is my work computer. You don't think that I would waste my off time replying to your rude comments, do you? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 346 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie I must agree that your last post made some good points. Being lucky enough to own the cars I do I realize that using them on a regular basis isn't always practical but the enjoyment I get makes it worth it to me. These cars can be used. I put 50,000 miles on my 275GTB, 85,000 on my 308GTBi, and 115,000 on my TR. I've driven them in the rain, sleet, and snow: I drove my Maserati coupe today in light snow. They do cost a lot. Over 14 years I spent about $1 per mile on my TR for service but late at night those are the miles I remember, and they were good ones... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 600 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>There will always be someone that will suck it up because they have two years to save up for the major or it is under warranty or it has low miles or whatever. Plus have them call an independent shop for the lowball price versus FNA if they have heard the horror stories. << FK, That's real slick sport. Smarter than the rest ahy buddy. I warn others about types of your ilk weekly if not daily. You don't sell used cars, you sell used up cars right sport. Maybe a little faking of the truth to help "seal the deal". Phony WO or two if the need arises. You're why I tell people often, It's a Jungle Out There, watch your step. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1110 Registered: 2-2001 |
I've never heard of $1,000 annual fluids on Ferraris (at least 360's)... Unless you are doing three or four oil changes per year, of course. Hey FerrariKing, you haven't answered... when are where are we meeting in Cavallino next week? Are you going to Martin's/Paul's lunch? If not, I would like to meet your elsewhere... Ernesto | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 599 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arlie, I'm gonna throw some more 'reality' at you. If you think everyone is doing it wrong or too expensive then build your own creation and show the world how it should be done Arlies way. Until you open up your own company and compete your just another arm chair quarter back that's full of SH*T ! Put your Money & Lifes Dedication to Arlies way, instead of just your mouth sport!!!! Show the world how it should be done...I hear your kinda BS far to often....Do Something About It If You Think You Can...Which We Know BS Artists Never Do...because they don't have what it takes (It takes Real Men bubba)...hot air can't get it done pal...it takes money, dedication, vision, goals, skill, time and effort!!! And damn, get a real job so you can afford some of the finers things in life instead of bitching about how much they cost! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2002 Registered: 6-2001 |
Finally...something other than utter bullshit out of the mouth of ferrari king. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 598 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>If it costs $200,000, then it should run as long as a Chevy or Ford because, in the real world, they are STREET cars, NOT race cars.<<< Arlie, I thought you were holding your own fairly well and had a small chance for a Tie..even though you were outnumbered (I lean towards favoring the underdogs). But now you're really starting to talk out your ass. The above statement is SOOOOOOOO FREAKIN STUPID !!! If it's your fantasy to get 400 HP out of 3.5 liters that revs to 9000rpms...fine...everyone can dream...but to make absurd outrageous claims that it should just happen is just plain wacko! | ||
| The Ferrari King (Theferrariking)
Junior Member Username: Theferrariking Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2003 |
Great analysis Arlie. The key to maintenance is this - at least it works for me - or has until now. Buy a car that is new, under warranty or on older models that has just been serviced. Then dump the thing about 2.5 years into it to a private buyer. Do the one grand annual fluids but always avoid the engine pull and belts. There will always be someone that will suck it up because they have two years to save up for the major or it is under warranty or it has low miles or whatever. Plus have them call an independent shop for the lowball price versus FNA if they have heard the horror stories. We'll see how Ferrari does with reliability on race engines with the FIA's new two race per engine rule. I'd like to see the factory back at LeMans to truly test the balance of performance and durability. King | ||
| Patrick (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2002 |
A little uncouth but it certainly applies to the atmosphere on Ferrarichat.com lately...  | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 633 Registered: 5-2002 |
Robert, I don't think that I would admit to having friends with life-size blow up dolls! Birds of a feather...etc. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
New member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2002 |
Arlie, I have a "friend" that has a blow up doll that looks just like Pamela Anderson. I'm sure he would be willing to lend her to you the, you too could have "Pam" with very little cost involved. Just trying to help. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 631 Registered: 5-2002 |
Andrew, just for you, here's my no BS opinion on Ferraris. Undoubtedly the most beautiful cars throughout automotive history. However, Ferraris seem to be caught in a paradox created by the desires of Enzo himself. From what I've heard, Enzo loved the racing Ferraris above the street Ferraris. The sales of street cars helped finance his main interest of racing. But the street cars were cousins of the racing cars. Any race car with an engine designed for maximum performance requires a pit crew, constant maintenance, and continuous care to keep it running in top form. Very expensive, but no problem if you own the company. Unfortunately for street Ferraris, their engines are so closely related to the race cars that they also require EXPENSIVE maintenance to keep them running properly. That expensive maintenance may add to the Ferrari "mystique" but in reality, it becomes a pain to anybody except the very wealthy. From what other car would anyone tolerate such expensive repair bills? Pulling an engine out after only thirty thousand miles? Come on. That's absurd. For $200,000 (or whatever), ANY car should be able to run for 100,000 miles with no problems. Of course people are saying, "But a Ferrari is a high performance car that requires SPECIAL care, just like a race car." True, but when are 95% of the Ferrari owners ever going to race their car? How much racing is anybody going to really do in their $200,000 car that most people would never even want to get scratched? If it costs $200,000, then it should run as long as a Chevy or Ford because, in the real world, they are STREET cars, NOT race cars. A local guy that has owned several 308s described them as "finicky". He sold one to another guy with the full knowledge that it needed new timing belts. The new owner proceded to do the job himself, got the belts off by a few teeth, and shredded the engine. A good motor and a good car turned into a project car needing expensive repairs, if it ever gets repaired. Also, (since you WANTED my opinion), I think the Ferrari world is full of dreamers. Many Ferrari "worshipers" would rather have a 512BB or a 288GTO or nothing at all. If that's the case, then chances are that they will end up with nothing at all. That's like saying that a guy would rather sit at home and stare at a poster of Pamela Anderson instead of going out on a date with the REAL girl that lives down the street. I prefer reality myself. I'm sure that I will never catch Pamela Anderson (or Carmen Electra) or anyone like them, and I'm also sure that I will never own a $200,000 Ferrari. But some day I might find a 308 that isn't in too bad a condition to enjoying playing with. Same thing goes for a Pamela or Carmen look-alike! | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2001 |
and my pilgrim shot  | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2001 |
 Cadillac 16 cyl 1000hp | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 479 Registered: 3-2002 |
Arlie it is obvious that you are probably FChat's most interesting member and one of the more knowledgable ones. But what I want to know is what is your honest bullshit-free opinion of ferrari's and the ferrari experience? Although I like reading about all you tell us about engines in different era's, can you indulge me and answer this? many thanks in advance andrew | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1273 Registered: 8-2002 |
Crap, James, that sounds like a space shuttle procedure... i bet when you're driving it, it feels like it, too... | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 372 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ahhh, the good old days, before EFI. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1990 Registered: 6-2001 |
Damn james, by the time you get that thing started, its time to pack up and go home. That sounds more like an airplane starting procedure. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes that is my P4 motor. 36 valves. 24 spark plugs. Lucas Mechanical fuel injection. 240ci. 450hp@ 8000 rpm. The part I like best is the starting procedure. Retard mechaincal cam on injector metering unit. With ignition off crank until oil PSI comes up. Turn on low PSI pumps. After a beat turn on high PSI pump. Squirt raw fuel down trumpets. Turn on ignition. Keep fire extinguisher handy. Keep face away from trumpets. Keep ears away from exhaust. Brace yourself. Crank. After a few moments advance mechanical cam on metering unit one notch. As water temp reaches 190 advance one more notch. Close rear deck. Strap in... | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1056 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey Fiero Queen, 308 blocks can take 1000hp so 500hp reliably isnt a problem. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2002 |
James - I'll never forget the time during the track day of the 1997 FCA National at Summit Point when I was standing (apparently) too close to the rear of a 512S (I think) when it started. It took a few days for my organs to return to their previous locations. I've gotta believe that you'll be in for the same experience the first time you start that beast!! It's just beautiful | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 170 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, is that the P4's motor? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1105 Registered: 2-2001 |
FerrariKing, where are we meeting at Cavallino? Please set a time and place... I can't wait to meet you. Ernesto | ||
| The Ferrari King (Theferrariking)
New member Username: Theferrariking Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2003 |
Come on, did you REALLY expect an intelligent conversation without namecalling? You know that is not the culture here at FerrariChildrenChat. You can find some good discussion on the 911 turbo board btw and not have to withstand childish remarks. A much higher percentage of serious car people there than here. Very little of "What is your favorite color"? The 911 engine can withstand one helluva of beating and so much power can be extracted it is amazing. Similar to both small and big block AMERICAN engines (you know, the garbage. Never hear much about anyone increasing their 308's or whatever's power by 50% and having it survive do you now? In fact, does anyone do anything except install Tubi pipes and change belts on Ferraris? I know I never have as I prefer to keep them in warranty. Have a great day. King | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 656 Registered: 10-2001 |
Cool engine!! Think it would fit in my Europa? *choke* What are those whitish hoses in the front? They look like plastic fuel lines. If they are, how come they don't degrade from the modern fuel additives like the ones that burned up so many Europas in the past? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 594 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hi James, Yes I've had sets coated. You're right it's incredible. I love that stuff. Seems to stop all rust/deterioration of the metal also. Is that your P4 engine? SWEEEEEETTTTTT!!!! Regards, JRV | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Have you tried ceramic coating? I had the Exhaust system in my Lola coated by HPC and it seems to work very well. You can almost touch them even after the engine is fully warmed up. Keeps the paint from blistering too. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 593 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Actually cooling the exhaust and thus gases slows the gas down and is a bad thing.<< Who said anything about cooling exhaust? But anyway, Allowing heat to rise out the top cools it, so that is why top exit exhausts went the way of dinosaurs? And yea I know about wrapping headers, I do all my race cars that way. ;-) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2002 |
IMHO another F engine that's not too hard to look at...  | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 655 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie contends: Ken, regarding steel 2x4s; how come the new church that was built up the street from me was built entirely out of steel 2x4s and then covered with a brick exterior? They built it that way because that's what they wanted. Arlie, just because a commercial building is built one way doesn't mean it's also best for the unwashed masses. Skyscrapers aren't made of wood either. Churches tend to NOT be built like houses in case you didn't notice, they have steeples, arches and other expensive acoutriments. If you ever build a house yourself, go over your options with your builder and see what makes more sense. I was saying wood is state of the art for homes like internal combustion engines are state of the art for personal transportation and I stand by that. | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
New member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2002 |
I always try to come up with something interesting to share with everyone | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 777 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wow. This HAS to be the fastest growing FChat thread ever. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2002 |
Refering to: Cool pic of the 312F1...I was going to throw it in this thread earlier actually asking what happened to "top side exhaust exits", as the theory was, since heat rises it would exit faster & more efficiently thru the top. Any of you rocket scientists know why it went by the wayside? Actually cooling the exhaust and thus gases slows the gas down and is a bad thing. Witness the great lengths they go to now-adays with wrapping exhausts and other things to keep the heat in (around the collectors, etc.) Pete | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1980 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arlie, you are saying it as if CO2 is PRODUCED from the combusion of hydrogen. IT isnt, it simply passes through the engine. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1227 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV, i know VW came out with the W12 (and correct me if i'm wrong, but also with the W16), i was just trying to make a point, referring to whatever run of the mill VW Arlie was referring to- i know he wasn't referring to one of their supercars... i should specified though, sorry... "Everyone knows it's part of a government program to keep the oil flowing from Iraq..." Tim, they keep the oil flowing from Iraq 'cause it puts a tremendous amount of money (and control) in their hands... Fecundity...? i had to look that one up... | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1054 Registered: 12-2001 |
Pedantic oratories, vilify, and my all time favourite, fecundity. LOL, Keep em coming hubert. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 256 Registered: 9-2002 |
Oh ya by the way "Ferrari's are great!!" | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2002 |
Arlie You are an interesting dude, Stick around here, Ferrari chat need the diversion. We need views other than "ferrari,s are the greatest ever" | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 429 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- Per your comments: >>Hubert, are you proposing to redesign the Enzo into a 4 door configuration so that it will allow for car pooling and thus do a better job of being a "non-resource depleting car chassis and componentes"??? I'm sure you will also delete the gas guzzling V12 and substitute a more eco-friendly 4 cylinder. Please advise the list members, (and the Ferrari factory), when you have completed your Enzo "upgrade<< No. Im afraid not, since my resources will be devoted specificlly to imporving the functionality and ergonomic nature of the lazy boy recliner and arm chair; from which you seem to relay all your pedantic oratories. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 428 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- Again, you're dodging my comments, why? My post was meant to point out the pace of discovery, which as of this writing is too slow to be injected into everyday utility; intellectual advancament maybe blindingly fast; practical application is not! No where did I speculate that technology cannot progrees. Whatever man, you come on here, stir up the pot, call everyone a lemming b/c part of their lifestyle includes enjoying Ferrari's (among 1000's of other things), insult our sense of moral and social perspctive b/c, by your intimation, we refuse to promote alternative fuel sources, then refute back to citations of 19th century 'scholars', talk about WW2 plane egnines, etc. No one ever disagreed w/ you that: cars pollute, alternate fuel sources are a good endevour, science is good, and that, as a whole most people dont take the time to think '..gee, what will tommorrow be like if I keep driving this tank (read: 12 mpg SUV), murdering baby seals, wearing mink, and eating cattle?..' but this a car site, you want a confessional; go to a church. Personally, I like Ferrari's among hunderds of other cars; they break down, can run you dry in the pocket book, have internal combustion engines, and not the best paint, but I never said they were the best thing since bubble gum. However, they are the best at what they do, and I can enjoy every one of them w/out pissing on it's crendentials, and whining about it's alleged 'inadequacies'. BTW- you driving a Honda Insight/Toyota Prius et al, yet? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1053 Registered: 12-2001 |
I remember seeing a 4 door camaro as well as a corvette arlie. GM didnt think it was a practical design so they didnt bother. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2002 |
Also Hubert, regarding your comment; "I'll be doing my post doc on improving catalytic mechanisms and composite materials for lighter, safer, and non-resource depleting car chassis and componentes, you? " Hubert, are you proposing to redesign the Enzo into a 4 door configuration so that it will allow for car pooling and thus do a better job of being a "non-resource depleting car chassis and componentes"??? I'm sure you will also delete the gas guzzling V12 and substitute a more eco-friendly 4 cylinder. Please advise the list members, (and the Ferrari factory), when you have completed your Enzo "upgrade". | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1052 Registered: 12-2001 |
How old are you arlie, reminds you of what was said in the 1800's? Im sure Iraq would love to stop selling oil so it can sit on it instead and watch their country go broke. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 621 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric, when your Enzo has its oil and gas supply cut off, it will coast to the side of the road like any other car. And when some hungry squirrel gnaws his way through your 25 year old antiquated telephone line up on the telephone pole, your fancy Pentium processor won't be able to communicate with anybody any more than a gassless Enzo Ferrari will be able to drive to the dealership for a complete engine overhaul. Ken, regarding steel 2x4s; how come the new church that was built up the street from me was built entirely out of steel 2x4s and then covered with a brick exterior? I watched them build it, and it's no high rise office building. It's built like a bank vault, and that's the way I would want a house built. Regarding high definition TV; the whole HDTV debacle reminds me of the California law that was supposed to mandate that two percent of all new vehicles sold in California by the year 2000 HAD to be electric vehicles. Boy that was a real flop. And don't hold your breath concerning HDTV. Most stations outside the major metropolitan areas are doing the BARE MINIMUM required by the FCC to comply with HDTV regulations. The compliance isn't by choice; the FCC says you MUST install a digitial transmitter and be ON THE AIR within your allowed time frame or FORFIT your frequency allocation. The station owners aren't so sure that Granny Smith down the street will run out and buy a $2000 HDTV set or even a $300 digital to analog converter box. But I guess Granny could drive her Enzo down to the TV store when she decides to upgrade. As for upgrading to non-fossil fuels in the distant future; the future may only be months ahead. Add the Venezuelan oil strike to a Middle Eastern conflict that cuts off the supply of oil, and the gasoline for your new Enzo may be $10 a gallon, if you can get it at all. And Hubert, you are correct. There is no point in attempting any further improvement in technology. It can't possibly be perfected according to your posting. That reminds me what the head of the U.S. Patent office said back in the 1800s. Everything that could be invented had already be invented so they should just closed down the patent office. And Hubert, regarding my polluting Corvette engines, as I said in a previous post, just because I debate an intelligent issue, it doesn't mean that I constrain my thinking with tunnel vision. I can still drive a gas burning automobile and have the intelligence to acknowledge that all internal combustion engines are fairly inefficient and that someday, we will have to upgrade to a new technology. Hopefully at our own pace and not at a pace dictated by the shortage of oil created by others. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie plods on atop his soapbox: And let's all ignore the fact that Ferrari makes wonderful automobiles but 99.999% of the worlds population could never afford them because they are absurdly expensive. State of the art is expensive. We shouldn't build better cars because the newest examples are too expensive for most people? Developing micochips was expensive too and there are an awful lot of people who can't afford a TV either. Yet we developed High Definition TV for those who can. That's how we live in America. Go to a communist country for a while and then tell me about it. Everyone is equal. You'd love it. Arlie becomes an Enviromental Socialist: And let's extole the virtues of a $600,000 car with an engine that still burns gasoline just like a Volkswagen. Gas is cheap and works. Can we burn gas forever? No. But we have a couple hundred years. We're not stupid even though you seem to debase society. We are developing alternatives and in 100 years when we see the more immediate need, new technologies will arrive. In the mean time, we have many new ideas being developed. Don't be such a pessamist! But it's good to keep asking for more. And be happy you live in a country where with intelligence and hard work, you too can own an Enzo. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 426 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- You seem fixated on the hydrogen engine being the solution to the problem, or dreaded mole that you precieve the internal combustion engine to be; while you're right in saying that the internal combustion engine is terribly inefficent (~ 70% of power generated escapes as thermal 'waste'), your conceptions, at least of the techonolgy now, of hydrogen being the failsafe solution to the global pandemic of pollution via internal combustion is a misnomer. First the extraction of hydrogen, in the majority, still depends on the use of fossil fuels, or combustion equivelents; where does that benefit us? So, lets take a look at the current avenues of making hydrogen; 1. electrolysis, you coined this as a viable major sourcs many posts ago, it, still depends heavily of fossil fuels, and does our current greenhouse gas situation none better (BTW- green house gases are those that are active in both the IR and the Raman spectra; by this definition H20 is also a greenhouse gas) 2. Steam Methane Reformation, by it's name is a telltale let down, but again is dependant on natural gas prices; not a very viable solution. 3. Biomass gasification (biomass sources like wood chips and agricultural waste, when heated in convert to synthesis gas, which primarily consists of carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO2), and hydrogen (H2).), but the capital expense and the low value products makes this a not yet refined avenue of research. 4. Photoelectrolysis, is the use of sunlight, in a semi-conductor, medirum to split H20 into H2 and O; however, this hasn't evolved past the lab. Another mental jack-off, for the time being, and last time I checked semi-conductors are quite costly, no? 5. Hydrogen from coal, well that involves mining of coal, burning, and the inclement byproducts therof. 6. Biohydorogen, this is the process extracting H2 from certain species of green algae, and also by genetically re-engineering (oh, gasp, are you going to go into the evils of genetic engineering too?) the photosynthetic pathway of spinach some researchers have extracted H2 from this source; although both are in the laboratory stages, only. Now, regarding the advances that BMW has made w/ the Hydrogen powered 7 series, the H2 tanks are CRYOGENICALLY kept (vey cold), and require freezeing of their own, as well as creating the possible explosion hazard of keeping a pressurized clylinder in the trunk of your car. Also, Arlie, the prinicple of using hydrgoen as a fuel source is entirely different than petrol; namely, hydrogen is an engergy carrier, not an energy source, and the combustion therof provides a reconstitution of H2 and 0, the product? Water Vapor! It is the reforming of bonds that exergonically gives off the engery to drive the mechanical process, not the breaking of bonds; this also reduces the entropy of the system, so what gives? You tell me? Further, you still abhore, openly, the venue that is the internal combustion motor, but I've seen you, in previous threads, go on and on, and on about the fecundity and glory that is to be found in the fleets of Corvette motors running around spewing out the same pollutants that you abhore coming from the tail pipe of anything unapproved by the Edicts of Arlie, whatever those may be; a case of the pot and kettle? I think so! Considering the specific output of the much revered Corvette is lacking when compared to the Ferrari of equal vintage, and is made ABSRUDLY incompetent and inefficent next to my Honda. Lastly, Arlie, why don't you post the number I request at the outset of this little soapbox, school girl pigtail pulling match? You'll find them cited below, put up the numbers of the engines that you used to vilify the Enzo engine, and we'll see if the lack of progression in the methods of internal combustion demands your sort of disdain and dismisal, ok? Also, what are you personally doing to better the situtaion at hand? I'll be doing my post doc on improving catalytic mechanisms and composite materials for lighter, safer, and non-resource depleting car chassis and componentes, you? Tim, et al.- What Arlie is infering, although not succently describing, is the formation of radicals, a quite facile endevour, under high temp, and high pressure; which is what you see often druing compression; the formation of radicals is what leads to the breakdown of oil and it's additives, and is what is responsible for detonation; radical formation creation of an atom with one unpaired electron v. the more stable lone pair configuration. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 652 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie wanders into dangerous and unknown territory: "That's like saying that a modernistic house design built out of wood is a "state of the art" design. Hardly. Truely "state of the art" designs would utilize steel 2 by 4s at the very least and more exotic materials." Steel 2x4's are for commercial only, in high rise offices to re-arrange floor space (non-structural). They don't insulate worth a damn and are awful in fires. You don't build a load bearing wall with a steel stud. Wood is a renewable resource. It chars in a fire and gives many more minutes before failure. It insulates much, much better than steel. Being in the wholesale building materials business, I can state with authority that wood framed houses are to this day, the state of the art product. There is no other product that does the job so well, is renewable and costs so little. Lumber prices are near 10 year lows and you may notice Jan Lumber futures, which expired on the 15th, crapped out. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 620 Registered: 5-2002 |
Combining hydrogen and oxygen will not get a carbon by product. But as I said, AIR is NOT pure oxygen. See this breakdown: http://www.physlink.com/Reference/AirComposition.cfm Air is composed of many gasses including CO2. Burn hydrogen in a cylinder with AIR, and you will get all kinds of different by-products. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 400 Registered: 2-2002 |
Let's spend our money traveling to a carshow like pilgrims to Mecca so that we can bow down in homage to the almight Enzo, even though we could never realistically afford one. And of course, at all times, continue to put down all other automobiles that one could possibly purchase and have fun restoring and driving, because it's much more fun to sit home and stare at a picture book filled with million dollar unobtainable Ferraris. How sad for you, again. I never set upper limits on what I intend on achieving financially. I already have 3 Ferraris, the disposition of which would make a good down payment on an Enzo. In 3 to 5 years, I probably will be able to afford one outright. No point in predisposing myself to a life of mediocre means. However, I don't want an Enzo. But it doesn't stop me from appreciating the elegance and style of not just the body, but the internals as well. Hey Rick, ever heard of the B-2 bomber or the F-117 Stealth fighter plane? You never heard about it UNTIL the government LET you hear about it. Oh, now that's a stretch. Comparing a skunkworks top-secret development to some clandestine corporate/government conspiracy to hide some engine technology from the masses. Oh, please. (and, by the way, yes, I did know about the F117 before it was "announced"). Outside of the military, our government can�t keep a secret from anybody (and even in the military, not so good). And let's extole the virtues of a $600,000 car with an engine that still burns gasoline just like a Volkswagen. That reminds me of your cute little computer analogy. The basic switching technology used in my 3 GHz Pentium is the same as it was when it was invented in the 60's (Mosfets). Just more refined, faster, smaller and more efficient... just like an Enzo engine. As for throwing insults, remind me again who it was that felt they had to come into a thread, and just had to go poo-poo on the original thread's spirit. Twasn't me, junior. It was YOU. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1979 Registered: 6-2001 |
How can you get carbon (which is an atom) out of a reaction ONLY involving oxygen and hydrogen? thats basic chemistry. i'm done with this argument. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Junior Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 191 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think i stand for most here when I say, "If the enzo's engine was a chick, I'd hit it." | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 160 Registered: 9-2002 |
Fusion engines? Didn't Doc put one of those in a Delorean and go back in time with it? what's youz guyz take on cold fusion? Is it possiable? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 362 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, It's not worth your time. Everyone knows it's part of a government program to keep the oil flowing from Iraq.....I'm not sure of the purpose, but they're doing it just the same. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 619 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, you're not changing the nuclei of individuals atoms, you're changing COMPOUNDS composed of different chemicals. Big difference. Basic chemistry. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 592 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm really saddened you guys have totally neglected "Fusion Engines". ;-( | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1978 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arlie, we are talking about combustion of hydrogen. the reason there are alot of chemicals in cig smoke is because of the materials being oxidized. I know that c02 is in the atmosphere, but you were saying it was a product. you cant change nuclei around unless you have temperatures like those on the sun. the heat of combustion in an engine isnt going to change atoms. exist if it werent for N, CO2, etc in the air. if you think it gets hot inside of engines with air, it would get many many many times hotter in them if nitrogen wasnt in the air, but the same amount of energy would be released from the reaction. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 360 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, OYu're right, an engine running on hydrogen will not produce any CO2. It will make water and probably some N2O. The CO2 will be produced at the plant that makes the hydrogen. The best way to make hydrogen is called steam reforming. Fuel (oil/coal) is burned and water is injected. The water breaks down, the oxygen is consumed an the hydrogen is released. It's about 70% efficient, so you put in 100 BTUs of oil and get out 70 BTUs of H2. That�s way the preferred method is just to put the oil in the engine and save the 30%. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 618 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, anytime you have combustion, you have incredible temperatures. With those incredible temperatures, the various gases can combine and produce numerous complicated by-products. That's why cigarette smoke is so bad. The heat of combustion causes all sorts of weird reactions and multiple by-products. If AIR were just OXYGEN, and it was combusted with HYDROGEN, there would be no by-products. But AIR contains numerous gases. Add the heat of combustion from burning hydrogen, and it would take a scientist to keep track of all the noxious oxides and other by-products that are produced. That's why scientists have identified hundreds of different chemicals in cigarette smoke. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 359 Registered: 5-2002 |
JVR, Exhaust out the top is good, but it means intake in the bottom - which is very bad. Getting air in is #1 and you get more in if you let it fall in instead of pulling it up and in. Also, the intake track has to be as straight as possible, you force a bend if you go in the bottom. The exhaust side only needs to flow about 92% of the intake, so you can live with a couple restrictions there. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1975 Registered: 6-2001 |
But its not a result of combustion of hydrogen. I know it is in the air, along with nitrogen. If N2 and CO2 werent in the atmosphere, we wouldnt have engines. unless youe hydrogen engine takes 2 protons, 2 neutrons and 2 electrons off of oxygen atoms to make carbon, then what i said was right. maybe you have a way of overcoming the strong force with your engine? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 617 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, AIR, like your engine breathes, is not pure OXYGEN. AIR, is composed mainly of NITROGEN and numerous other gases. Any combustion process utilizing AIR is not perfect. Therefore, the exhaust will not be composed of ONE or TWO components, but many components. Analyze cigarette smoke and you will find dozens of combustion components. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1974 Registered: 6-2001 |
"Tim, I was partially in error. There is no CO2 output. See http://www.iahe.org/h2convrt.htm for a full in depth study of the hydrogen combustion process. Just one of many such sites on the web." I was gonna say if you can get CO2 out of hydrogen and oxygen then some pretty crazy things are going on in your engine. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 591 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>but a Volkswagon will never be able to perform like an Enzo,<< Des, VW already has a W12 that performs every bit like the Enzo. It help the closed course speed record for quite some time. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1223 Registered: 8-2002 |
i stand corrected. My apologies, Arlie. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jesus! Doesn't that just dump a huge amount of heat into the cylinder heads? Those look ceramic coated, but still! What a beautiful block of metal! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 616 Registered: 5-2002 |
DES, a pilgrim is also defined as "one who travels to a shrine or a holy place as a devotee". It doesn't always mean "somebody who eats turkey on Thanksgiving day". | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 590 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cool pic of the 312F1...I was going to throw it in this thread earlier actually asking what happened to "top side exhaust exits", as the theory was, since heat rises it would exit faster & more efficiently thru the top. Any of you rocket scientists know why it went by the wayside? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is a 312F1 engine:  This picture is from www.tomyang.net, but I do not think Tom will mind All Ferrari, actually almost all Italian engines look great Pete | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1219 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie, of course this engine is a wonderment... Comparing it to a Volkswagon doesn't make sense... they both run on gas, yeah, but a Volkswagon will never be able to perform like an Enzo, which is exactly why it's so amazing- so different yet powered by the same thing...! As far as sitting at home, staring at pictures of million dollar, unobtainable automobiles, well... that takes me out of reality for a few minutes and sometimes, i actually smile, even though i can't afford them... You ever check out a married woman when you're out at the store or the mall...? Of course- but why are you looking at something you'll never obtain...? Admiration, my friend, admiration. & not everyone puts down all other automobiles, just some people... & i used to think it was just me, but i quickly learned when i came here, that Ferrari really IS a way of life... (Oh, and i don't think any pilgrims went to Mecca- i don't even think they knew what Mecca was; the word you're looking for is pilgrimage... ) $0.02 | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dude....why the f*ck are you here? Put your d*ck back in your pants when you're done pissin' in my Cherrios. Thanks. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 614 Registered: 5-2002 |
And let's all ignore the fact that Ferrari makes wonderful automobiles but 99.999% of the worlds population could never afford them because they are absurdly expensive. And let's extole the virtues of a $600,000 car with an engine that still burns gasoline just like a Volkswagen. Let's spend our money traveling to a carshow like pilgrims to Mecca so that we can bow down in homage to the almight Enzo, even though we could never realistically afford one. And of course, at all times, continue to put down all other automobiles that one could possibly purchase and have fun restoring and driving, because it's much more fun to sit home and stare at a picture book filled with million dollar unobtainable Ferraris. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2002 |
People, people, people! Why are you arguing with Arlie??? Just because Ferrari spends $60 million/year on a driver's salary ALONE in the search for F1 victories, that does not mean that Ferrari puts any money into superior engine design. Now come on....Ferrari has won three F1 championships in a row based on LUCK. It is OBVIOUS that they have no idea how to design a competitive and state-of-the-art engine. Arlie, on the other hand, chose to stay out of the engine development business because his Ultra-Efficient-Neat-As-Crap super modern engine design was found by the Arabs and his life was threatened. So let's all forget the notion that Ferrari knows what it is doing, and accept the fact that Arlie is the supreme God of engine design. OK? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 613 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, I was partially in error. There is no CO2 output. See http://www.iahe.org/h2convrt.htm for a full in depth study of the hydrogen combustion process. Just one of many such sites on the web. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1971 Registered: 6-2001 |
"As for hydrogen, don't use it in a fuel cell, burn it directly. The exhaust is much more eco-friendly; just carbon dioxide and water." What do you think comes out when its catalyzed to create the power for the motor? i dont think the carbon dioxide that would come out wouldnt be a product of the combustion. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 612 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Maybe we should create an exciting race series that some how advances society and then we would really get somewhere ... " Not a bad idea Pete. I think that's what the solar powered car guys have tried to do with their races across America and Australia. They have helped with regenerative braking technology, solar cell, and battery developement. I think that makes more sense than NASCAR with their rolling billboards promoting cancer causing tobacco products and booze. (Both of which cause untold numbers of deaths each year in this country.) But hey, it's a free country. If one wishes to smoke and drink booze, it's your right. Just don't blow smoke in my face or drive drunk and run into me. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2002 |
[Quote]As for hydrogen, don't use it in a fuel cell, burn it directly. [End Quote] BMW already have a test vehicle doing just this ... but the refueling dangers require a completely automatic and robotic process that just is not practical for the average dumbo. This danger of transporting Hydrogen is why the fuel cell is the better bet for the REAL world. BTW Ferrari a performance car manufacturers, not looking for future techologies. When you build a race car it pays to be a tiny bit cautious with new technology otherwise you might stuff up a season of racing with problems, etc. Thus any Ferrari is never going to the most cutting edge car out there ... wrong company. Even their F1 racing cars are not cutting edge ... after all it is about winning races not advancing society Maybe we should create an exciting race series that some how advances society and then we would really get somewhere ... Pete ps: I think that modern engines (like the Enzos) loose something to the older engines in looks, like the 250F Maserati, or 312F1 with all those trumpets and extras sticking out for all to see. Modern engines are so clean and well packaged ... for example the cover on the Enzo engine over the spark plugs and I assume the coils per cylinder. The 312F1 would have simply had plug leads snaking all over the place to plugs buried deep between the cams, plus the throttle linkage would have been visible ... | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1048 Registered: 12-2001 |
Arlie, we know ferraris have internal combustion engines and its how they make it sound, look and perform that makes us all (except you) love them. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 610 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric, apparently you can't grasp the concept of an intelligent debate without: A. starting with the insults B. assuming that just because I (or others) discuss alternate energy power plants means we are out hugging trees somewhere. Ric's words: "Bwahahhahaha. The dark conspiracy, oh yea." Hey Rick, ever heard of the B-2 bomber or the F-117 Stealth fighter plane? You never heard about it UNTIL the government LET you hear about it. I know you find it extremely frustrating that the mighty Enzo's engine is JUST an internal combustion engine, but it's true. But take heart, Cadillac unveiled a V16 in its showcar at the recent auto shows. It's just an internal combustion engine also. Nothing discriminatory against Ferrari. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1045 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey arlie, all those corvettes you have in baskets are running out of time before that big pipeline is broken stopping the flow of oil. You should spend your time assembling them and getting some use out of them before its too late. Get those HC belching SBC's running to polute the earth while you preach about ancient antiquated piston powered cars vs ice cube powered golf carts. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ric My son who is a junior at Dartmouth wears tofo shoes and laments anything that isn't GREEN. What car does he drive? A Dodge Durango. It's the only thing big enough to get him and his friends to the mountians he loves to climb. This weekend he's going to DC to protest the war. In 1972 I went to DC to protest the war. Plus ca change... | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2002 |
Arlie, No more free lessons, answers are $100 each. You may find it cheaper to just take a class or 2. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 399 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey Ric, are you saying that people are going to buy an Enzo Ferrari for its wonderful fuel economy? No. God, you really can't conceptualize more than one sentance at a time, can you? I was merely responding to your apparent lamenting of how wonderful WW2 technology is (was). I made absolutely no effort to imply that Ferraris are economincal. I will point out that for their specific outputs and gearing, they're as fuel efficient as anything else on the road. Practical engineering??? And how many people are going to afford a "practical" Enzo Ferrari that costs only $600,000??? I will anxiously be awaiting the "practical" applications of Enzo technology down at my local car dealership. Absolutely, practical in the sense that it has made it into a production car. Practical in the sense that it's not just a bunch of nerds jacking off in a labratory somewhere. Practical in the sense that it's a huge marketing success. Yes. Some of that technology that Ferrari uses will end up on production cars at some point, if and when the market ever dictates that it should, so some of it will end up in mass production. But I'm sure there is already such an engine running behind closed doors in some government/industry lab; forever under wraps until THEY decide it's time to unveil it. Bwahahhahaha. The dark conspiracy, oh yea. By "state of the art", I assume you mean "state of the art engines that STILL burn fossil fuels like dinosaur bones" So tell us, master of mental masterbation, what fuel source is as cheap to produce, carries more energy per pound, has as good an energy use profile and is as safe? Hmm? You seem to have a real negative fixation on gasoline powered engines. So tell us, what do you drive? What have you personally done to promote the use of "alternate" technologies? Or are you just the typical liberal arm chair whiner? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 609 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, thanks for the comment on the NITINOL engine. At least somebody else has heard of it and can make a decent comment about it. Mark said: "BTW, there in no alternate fuel technology, except nuclear." Can we quote you on that in a few years Mark? Years ago, everybody said that the bumblebee can't fly, but the bumblebee never read the science books so he keeps on flying. And back in the early days when locomotives were being designed, the scholors of the day said that human beings could never stand the acceleration and speeds that trains would travel at without being crushed by dynamic forces. So excuse me if I don't believe that there is no alternate fuel technology. "Where would the on demand heat for your Nitinol engine come from?" Any vehicle has temperature differentials available. A vehicle sitting in the sun has many points that are 50 degrees apart from other points. Perhaps a solar panel to circulate differential fluid for the nitinol engine? And a back up system for cloudy days? All just conjecture. But to say that there is "NO ALTERNATE FUEL TECHNOLOGY" is just not the scientific method. As for your alcohol fuel analysis, I don't need any schooling for that. Anybody who has read any of Smokey Yunicks engine technology and analysis knows that alcohol is not the way to go. But Smokey's Heat Engine might have possibilities? I assume that you've read about it, haven't you Mark? Once again, you might actually have to read something other than Forza and Cavallino to keep up on such things. As for hydrogen, don't use it in a fuel cell, burn it directly. The exhaust is much more eco-friendly; just carbon dioxide and water. You get the hydrogen from electrolysis of water and you get the power to do so from solar cells in vast arrays at hydrogen processing centers. Sounds like an oil refinery doesn't it? An oil refinery of the future, minus the oil. And the energy to produce the cells is returned many times over in the long run. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2002 |
Arlie, I didn't say the tesla turbine only has a 2:1 CR, I said it is only capable of a 2:1 CR. Isaac Newton was kind enough to explain viscosity to us in the 1700s. It still works and it tells us in no uncertain terms that a tesla turbine has no future. BTW, there in no alternate fuel technology, except nuclear. Where would the on demand heat for your Nitinol engine come from? Where do you thing the hydrogen they put in full cells comes from? Do you think they pump it out of the ground, or water magically breaks down because you want it to? Did you know that nothing comes close to a diesel for conserving fuel when you look at it �womb to tomb�, which includes manufacturing? Did you know that alcohol (renewable right?) costs about $1.20/ gallon to make and $.50 of that is the non-taxed gallon of diesel/gas that goes into the tractor and refinery to grow/make it. Again, I suggest that you go back to school. If you truly believe technology is being suppressed by god knows who, doing something about it, develop it yourself. Just please do it some place else, these people would be happy to steal�I mean take your money. http://my.execpc.com/~teba/ | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2002 |
Arlie - what you refer to is known as a "Johnson" engine (after David Johnson of TINI Alloy Company - I think). The limitation would likely be the fatigue and metallurgy of NITINOL. I have seen the Johnson heat engine work, and it is very interesting as a demonstration project. I entertained developing small electric generators using this device and readily available heat differentials (as auxillary power using internal combustion water coolant flow, underground thermal sources, etc.). The practical and engineering issues were considerable, and NITINOL is an unlikely replacement for the internal combustion engine. My thoughts. Jim S. | ||
| tony liokossis (Tonybaloney)
New member Username: Tonybaloney Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2002 |
I know, I know, I haven't posted a lot so I don't have much "street cred". I do, however, know that if I had to choose between an engine built by Ferrari and one built by Arlie, it wouldn't take me long to decide. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 607 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ken said: "No, but how can the state of the art evolve without cutting edge projects like the Enzo?" By "state of the art", I assume you mean "state of the art engines that STILL burn fossil fuels like dinosaur bones". That doesn't exactly sound like a state of the art engine to me. More like "state of the same old fossil fuel art" to me. I'm sure many others would also agree. That's like saying that a modernistic house design built out of wood is a "state of the art" design. Hardly. Truely "state of the art" designs would utilize steel 2 by 4s at the very least and more exotic materials. If Ferrari built a buggy whip out of piezo-electric fibers that supply digital pulses to a computer in the handle, would that make it a "state of the art" buggy whip? Hardly. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1042 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thats interesting arlie but I like the look of a beautifully designed engine under the see through engine cover on a ferrari rather than a big ice cube. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 606 Registered: 5-2002 |
NITINOL, is an acronym for Nickel Titanium Naval Ordnance Laboratory. As the name suggests, it was developed by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory. As for its use in a valve train, the potential applications seem pretty evident since the alloy operates off a temperature diferential. The temperature differential between a burning combustion chamber and the water cooling jackets of an engine block would seem to be a potential application. But that's still antiquated thinking. Forget about valves and pistons. Utilize the NITINOL for the engine power itself. I saw a film one time of a small NITINOL engine that operated in a small tank of water. One side of the tank was room temperature water. The other side was ice water. The instant the NITINOL motor was lowered into the water, the thing started running with no end in sight! As long as a temperature differential existed, the motor would continue to run, essentially indefinately because the NITINOL alloy has an extremely long life of many millions of cycles. And there are even DUAL memory NITINOL alloys that will oscillate back and forth between two memorized shapes. Can you imagine the potential for an engine that is engineered with giant springs of NITINOL? Wouldn't the oil companies love that,...an engine that runs off the temperature difference between ambient air and ice water. Basically, anything that could be burned would satisfy the temperature differential and allow the engine to run. That WOULD be revolutionary. But I'm sure there is already such an engine running behind closed doors in some government/industry lab; forever under wraps until THEY decide it's time to unveil it. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2002 |
fellas as much as this has been amusing if Arlie cannot see our appreciation for such an engine design then it is his lost... twisting words and taking comments out of context will not help either... Arlie - I compliment you for bringing up good topics of discussion (different engine designs)- but I more so admonish you for your lack of tact in expressing your views nough said | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 650 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ric states: [Arlie needs to] learn to appreciate the art that such a company brings to practical engineering." Arlie misses the point and counters: Practical engineering??? And how many people are going to afford a "practical" Enzo Ferrari that costs only $600,000??? Arlie, most of the 'practical' innovations came from racing technology. Fuel injection mapping systems, multi-port fuel injection itself, active suspensions...a long list I'm sure you yourself can fill out. Much of this stuff was expensive at first and is now commonplace in even cheap cars. It starts with companies like Ferrari and engines like what's in the Enzo. Then I said: "You seem to have a lack of understanding of how internal combustion engines have evolved in say, the last 30 years." Arlie then recites a nice list of technical terms. Okay Arlie, since you know about engine evolution, then how can you say "All things considered, the Enzo motor is just another internal combustion engine." Well, so was the first VTEC engine; so was the first DOHC engine; all just variations on the theme but each step a better engine than the one preceeding. Is the Enzo engine the final word? No, but how can the state of the art evolve without cutting edge projects like the Enzo? As far as Tesla goes, he was a brilliant but deeply disturbed man who seems to have attracted a following of loonies down through the years. Perhaps you can shed some light on that? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1041 Registered: 12-2001 |
They used them in the old hit and miss engines James. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1040 Registered: 12-2001 |
Im sure even at $600k they sold every one, practicality isnt the issue regarding any ferrari. A lumpy old mechanically injected vette isnt practical either and you own a dozen of them.(in pieces). An electric car pollutes more than a ULEV if its straight electric because of the pollution produced to create electricity. You are just changing the location of the pollution source. Why not use this resource of dead rotting life forms as a fuel? Why let it waste away to find a more expensive way to power our automobiles? I dont think you are a true car enthusiast or a ferrari fan. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 304 Registered: 6-2002 |
Horsefly - You mention Nickle Titanium Alloy (NITINOL) shape memory alloy. Perhaps you could expand a bit further on its use in valve train design. Thanks. Jim S. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 605 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric said, in reference to WWII aircraft engines:"In fact their VE and BMEP (and therefore power-to-weight and fuel economy) were pathetic by today's standards" Hey Ric, are you saying that people are going to buy an Enzo Ferrari for its wonderful fuel economy? Ric also said: What you need to do is to step back a little from your eglatarian intellectual high-horse and learn to appreciate the art that such a company brings to practical engineering." Practical engineering??? And how many people are going to afford a "practical" Enzo Ferrari that costs only $600,000??? I will anxiously be awaiting the "practical" applications of Enzo technology down at my local car dealership. Ken said: "You seem to have a lack of understanding of how internal combustion engines have evolved in say, the last 30 years." Oh really? Seems to me that I am well aware of the evolution of internal combustion engines. Hit and miss single cylinders engines, (I have two of those),Carburetion, electric pulsed carburetors, throttle body injection, direct high pressure injection, simultaneous double fire injection, syncronous injection, etc. I've done plenty of research on all of them. And Mark, you site all the bad points of the Tesla turbine engine. That's like going back and citing all the bad points of a single cylinder hit and miss engine, and then saying that the principle has no future. Any guess where a Tesla Turbine engine design would be today if it had been funded and researched WITHOUT being repressed? Have you ever actually done any research on Tesla's inventions and the continuous cloud of mystery that surrounded his death and the quick appropriation of all his designs by the government??? They were wisked away and most of his designs haven't seen the light of day in decades. Notice that nobody has much of a comback when I suggest that a TRUELY revolutionary powerplant will utilize something other that dead dinosaurs for power. The Enzo engine burns gasoline just any other internal combustion engine and it will be sitting idle by the side of the road like any other car if the oil pipelines get cut during some future world conflict (Iraq?). And of course, nobody on this board has probably even heard of the Doble steam car and its revolutionary power plant. Do some research on it and get back to me. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1037 Registered: 12-2001 |
Well, when I said ford was messing around with flat heads I wasnt refering to an F1 car. I was comparing apples to apples seeing as how the enzo is a production road car with an advanced design engine that is far above any domestic. It was that way then and still is today. That is the point of the debate which arlie started. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2002 |
You just asked what was comparable, I didn't take your statement as limiting parameters to mass produced (at what volume is "mass production"?), I thought we were just talking technology. I'll just leave you guys to sort this among yourselves, bu - bye. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 334 Registered: 10-2002 |
Duesenberg had overhead Alum 4 valve engines in 1931. There's one in mine. Enzo often said he admired Duesys and the Packard 12's. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1032 Registered: 12-2001 |
And what production road cars were they in Rob? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2002 |
Novi and Offy Champ-car (Indy) engines. Novi came out in 1941. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1030 Registered: 12-2001 |
Something that always amazes me is when ford was making their flat head V8's in the 40's, colombo made an overhead cam 12 in aluminum. Talk about light years apart. We are talking 1945. WTF did north america have that could compare to that technology? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 643 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie, I think you need to do some homework. You seem to have a lack of understanding of how internal combustion engines have evolved in say, the last 30 years. Companies like Ferrari, Honda and a few others are at the cutting edge of innovation, and engines today are evolving at a faster rate than say 1945-1970. There is no argument that the older technology is better, except from a DIY standpoint. It just isn't that good. I love my duel carb, high revving DOHC Twin Cam engine but I also like how my Honda starts in 5 degree weather without a problem, and gets almost double the gas mileage, is as quick off the line in a car that weighs twice as much, has a higher top speed and needs 1/10th the maintainence. My Lotus is a toy; I'd hate to rely on that technology in a daily driver. And it all derived from companies like Ferrari who need to continue to innovate to stay competitive in both racing and their world class sports cars. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2001 |
I love the ENZO MOTOR>>>>>>I WANT ONE ,JUST ON A frame n tranny to enjoy with friends at Waterford Sunday after Church Track....... | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ferrari builds beautiful things Arlie, I'll though this in, the reason you don't see a tesla turbine anywhere is because it is only capable a about a 2:1 CR. I runs and it's simple, but the extra low CR means it eats massive amounts of fuel. Modern turbine are also 10HP/lb, but have about 13:1 CR. The reason you don't see turbines in cars is because of turn-down ratio. A modern cogen electric generation plant, using both gas and steam turbines run at about 60% efficiency, the theoretical max is 66%, not too bad. A turbine can only operate efficiently from about 70% power too 100% and the response time is relatively slow. A piston engine can covers about 90% of the rpm band with almost instant response and is much much cheaper to make. Now if you what to invest, I�m designing a machine that uses magnets to give free energy, it�s better than a perpetual motion machine. You can just make the check out to me and I�ll give you a % of the profits it makes........ | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 393 Registered: 2-2002 |
Horsefly has a nerd bug so far up his ass that he can't see the tree for the forest. How sad for you that you can't appreciate the beauty of the design. How sad. Most of the crap you're citing is from failed technology. Not failed due to technical reasons, but due to market reasons. The market makes the decisions, by and large, with a little (OK, too much) help from FedGovCo. Replace everything you say about VACUUM TUBES with PUSH RODS and let's see just how far Ford & Chebby have really come (not much). "Every Chevrolet V8 engine since 1955 has a balanced crank" Perhaps, but not billet forged and balanced to less than a gram... all since the early days of Ferrari. An how many Chevy, Ford or Dodge motors even come close to the specific output of even my 24 year old 308 GTB? Not too many, huh? Never mind the 100+ HP/L capacities of the modern Ferrari engines. The only close contenders on that metric are Hondas. "Chevrolet had an aluminum 427 engine block available in 1969" And Ferrari since the early 50's, and Alfa long before that.. on just about EVERY SINGLE motor that Ferrari's ever made. "Titanium valves? These have been available for what, 30 years?" So name one production car from the USA that's ever employed them. (?) How about tuned length exhaust headers. Yes, old stuff, and not revolutionary, but what other production cars have them? Not many. The same can be said for variable exhaust cam timing, variable intake cam timing, variable intake geometry, dry sump oil system, rear engine, etc. If it was such a great thing, where's the Marmon engine these days? If it had such a great future in the marketplace, where is it now? Oh, let me guess... an oil company conspiracy supressed the design. As for Tesla�s turbine designs (and many other such designs). Gee, nice on paper, but ILLEGAL for use in passenger cars in the USA, so go b!tch at FedGovCo for that one. "Amazing how that friction filled, horsepower eating, heavyweight, unreliable design powered virtually every American fighter plane in World War II!!! I'm glad they used such a bad design back then, otherwise, I might be speaking German or Japanese now!!!" Just because they got the job done, doesn't mean they were elegant designs. In fact their VE and BMEP (and therefore power-to-weight and fuel economy) were pathetic by today's standards, even for a Ford. Where are all the diesel subs? They helped win the war, too! You seem to like to take stabs at Ferrari's latest designs by comparing it to the failed or shelved efforts of companies that had and continue to have budgets anywhere from 10x to even 100x that of Ferrari. The Enzo, 360 and the forthcoming "420" engines represent state-of-the-art production engine designs, which very few designs even come close to. Sure this company has this, and that company has (or had) that, but not now, and not all on the same engine. All this from a company that probably has a total annual engineering budget smaller than any one of the "big three's" lobbying budgets. What you need to do is to step back a little from your eglatarian intellectual high-horse and learn to appreciate the art that such a company brings to practical engineering. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1029 Registered: 12-2001 |
yeah bruce but you need to know the definition first. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1555 Registered: 4-2002 |
"didactic" i love it hubert, that will be my word of the day for my employees tomorrow... bruce,,,,,hi paul,,, | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 423 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- Dismissal without refutation. Nice, but, your original intimation was that (yawn) the enzo engine is 'just' another internal combustion engine, just another reinvention of the wheel; however, that may be true, but its a much better wheel. You revere the engines of old, and slight the new motors as rehashed heaps of old idea, but you wont post the facts, by which to compare the two 'reinventions', side by side. Alternative fuels are a good idea, but not practical, and no one is arguing with you that they shouldn't be explore; however, wide spread use of these fuel sources are not yet viable, plain and simple; there is still, and will continue to be, a dependance, however marginal, of dino juice; that is just the way it is. If you want to argue for the preservation of fuel, the environment, etc petition against the increase in size and weight of modern cars (suv's, trucks, and have you seen the size of a modern coupe?), they're lack of efficency (internal combustion is a terribly ineffiecnt way of making power, and gasoline an even worse source, but optimizing what petty resources we can, helps), petition against nuclear power (oh, but wait, how do dams effect the eco systems?),etc. But, just for once, why dont you just sit back, crack or sip or puff on whatever you enjoy, and say..'..now THAT is a gorgeous motor..' if you can't, for a minute, distract your didactic tendecies to do just that, then maybe you're not really an enthusiast, nor even a 'carguy', but maybe just a bent cynic, who fails to see the emotive power in something so simple as an engine. Cheers. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1027 Registered: 12-2001 |
Mark, perhaps the 48V system might not happen. Im getting my info from ford because I work for them. The biggest problem I heard of was the lights which would remain on 12V stepped down from 48. The light technology just inst up to speed yet but I dont think that will stop them. Who knows but it makes my point about the size of solenoids on a 48v system. Now if you want to talk about windings lining the bellhousing and the converter becomes the armature for the charging system.....just imagine the cost for an alternator then. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 602 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nikoli Tesla was producing turbine engines that put out 10 horsepower per pound of engine weight back in 1911. http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm Imagine what kind of horsepower could be developed today if his designs had been openly researched instead of being conveniently "forgotten". Just think, a 500 pound Ferrari motor with 5000 horsepower! My point? The Enzo motor is a very nice work of art that showcases current state of the art engine developement utilizing STANDARD internal combustion engine thinking. BUT, there are many other avenues of engine developement that could be pursued, both OLD and NEW. And some of those avenues have probably been deliberately ignored because they "rock the boat" and have the potential to "rob the profit" of long established organizations. All things considered, the Enzo motor is just another internal combustion engine. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 574 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ok ..this cinches it... if there's ever an FChat Dinner several of you guys have to use plastic ware. ;-) | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 352 Registered: 5-2002 |
paul, The last I heard the 48V systems that were coming may not be, evr though I saw an article about it in Popular science. They've added a ton of electric goodies to the cars and they don't have a good way to get from 48VDC to 3.3 of 5 VDC like the toys need...if I remember right, that's the same problem Edison couldn't solve 100 years ago. Arlie, I'm sorry, but cost and reliability are functions of part count and tolerance. The even teach a class on it at engineering school. It also turns out that just because Popular science printed it or there is a web site, doesn't make it so. Hybrid cars consume about 4 times more extra energy (oil) to produce than they save in there life time in gas. For fuel cell cars, it's closer to 100 times. The oil companies like all the low emission stuff. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 601 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's another website with info on that old worthless "fork and blade" piston rod technology. http://www.unlimitedexcitement.com/Miss%20US/Allison%20V1710%20Engine.htm Mark said the following concerning the "fork and blade" piston rod design: "They also add extra bearings, rod bolts and friction points which eats HP, adds weight and decreases reliability. " Amazing how that friction filled, horsepower eating, heavyweight, unreliable design powered virtually every American fighter plane in World War II!!! I'm glad they used such a bad design back then, otherwise, I might be speaking German or Japanese now!!! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 422 Registered: 1-2002 |
Paul- Plastigauge anyone? Sounds like fun, rebuilding is always good work. Arlie- Nice site, but where are the numbers for your engines? The validity of your comments will not become relavent, until you present the numbers. Until then, it is still your opinion that the enzo engine (or any other modern engine which you find to be redundant) is undeveloped. Where are the numbers, man? Facts. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1026 Registered: 12-2001 |
Arlie, They might be wasting money but they wont know until they explore the possibilities which isnt free. Someone has to follow this stuff up and until you see it in production cars revolutionizing the automobile, its just research. Its not proven. Remember the Japanese messing around with ceramic blocks not requiring a cooling system? What happened to them? That would have a bigger impact than spherical valves. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 159 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie, The ferrari engine to me is a piece of art with very particular intricate details. To you it is a piece of chunks of metal. To elaborate more, to me, the Enzo, the P4, 333sp, Lambo Miura, Porsche 959 are all automotive high performance engineering arts. I wonder what you see on these types of cars? For me or others to explain what we see on these types of engineering feats would require chapters of writing. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 600 Registered: 5-2002 |
I guess this is one of those crazy websites run by people with money to burn. http://www.coatesengine.com/technology.html | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1025 Registered: 12-2001 |
Good point on the clearances Hubert. The old school was loose rods and mains, thick oil and an oil pump that was over kill. The last 427 I built for a friend I ran tight bearing clearances, ran a stock pump and 5w30 oil to reduce HP loss through the oil pump drag. That was 5 years ago and its WOT whenever he drives it. I did however knife edge the crank and polish the rods while I was at it. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1963 Registered: 6-2001 |
If you think todays economy cars suck, wait 20 years and see how much you hate the fuel cell cars we will all be driving. how does 80kW in the more powerful economy car/compacts sound to you? hopefully they will be able to get more out of these. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1024 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes you are right, they should send the globe into a financial crisis and cause wars, mayhem and so on by cutting out oil consumption all together rather than keep the economy going by developing ULEV's. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 421 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- My 'babbling' about the knife edging was just to point out how people like to hark back to what they know, and are comfortable with, and use that as the fundamnetal knowledge by which they judge everything around them, even if, contextually, and historically, they are in error. In short, people don't change, and like to critize, before addressing, or even bothering to look at, the changes. List the facts, man. List the numbers I requested. Those are facts. And they will show, without doubt, that the lack of progress you speak of is actually a fact, and not, your opinion. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 599 Registered: 5-2002 |
If Ford, or any of the big 3 were REALLY looking at the future and not trying to remain buddies with the oil companies, they would be designing cars that utilize electric and magnetic power sources to their full capabilities. Of course they could also utilize some sort of NITINOL memory metal in their valve and/or power train designs. But they have to wean the auto industry away from the dependence on oil and gas slowly so that all their corporate buddies will have time to divest their stock portfolio of oil and gas companies before they start dropping in value permanently. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1023 Registered: 12-2001 |
Arlie, Ill let you in on a little secret about automotive advances. Ford is working on going to a 48V system to reduce the size of its actuators like the door locks, window motors etc. The increase in volatge allows for components to be a fraction of the size currently needed. This would address your "concern" about the solenoid sizes. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 598 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mark, just as Rexrcr said to me, your statements are opinions. Concerning fork and blade piston rods, you said that they also add extra bearings, rod bolts and friction points which eats HP, adds weight and decreases reliability. Isn't it really about cost and manufacturing complexity? The fork and blade design are more involved and complex to manufacture requiring 6 rod bolts and 6 half bearings per cylinder pair. But as for decreased reliability, what could possibly be more unreliable than timing belts that snap or wear out requiring service every 30,000 miles as in most Ferraris? If spherical valves are so bad as you say, how come a recent Popular Science/Mechanics article showcased the massive ongoing research into the spherical valve design? I guess those guys like to throw money away. As for solenoid valves consuming massive power, just add more battery reserve to allow for the extra current draw; if that's even really necessary. The TRUELY advanced engine of the future will no doubt utilize some form of regenerative braking like solar powered cars utilize in order to add power back to the battery during coasting times. Hubert, spherical valve engines and solenoid operated valve trains are not "antique" technology. They're current technology being actively explored. Where have you been? And what are you babbling about with your "knife-edging cranks"??? I never mentioned anything about knife-edge cranks in any of my posts. Do a page search to verify. I mentioned "fork and blade" piston rods whereby the crankshaft end of each piston rod interlaces with the opposite rod and the pistons and bores are directly across from each other for a more balanced engine. Why are you worried about oil flow in an old hot rod engine? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 420 Registered: 1-2002 |
JRV- Granted, but the arguments still stem from the concept of increasing sheering potential of the crank. Point is, that kinfe edging a modern crank, just give you an 'aerodynamic' advantage,and not much else. If you wnated to reduce driveline strees, there are other places where it would have a rational purpose; e.g. flywheel, etc. I was just trying to point out, that some people insit on comparisons without ever looking at the changes, nor the historical context. Same goes for those that think running looser crank bearing tolerances will yield more power, as will tighter valve clearances, and balancer shafts on the crank aren't really neccessary. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 572 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>PS- I love how all the old time hot-rodders still expouse to everyone about the neccessity of knife-edging cranks, but have forgotten to look into the fact that most modern engines dont pass through the oil anymore, but are rather cooled by oil jets in the block. << Well...let's not forget the parasitic drag of Crankcase Turbulance oil or no oil. ;-) | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 351 Registered: 5-2002 |
Arlie, Almost everything you said is in error. Fork and blade connecting rods do put the pistons opposite each other, but really do nothing to improve balance. A straight 6 balances to the 3rd harmonic. The 12 is just 2 of the 6es, so shares it�s natural balance as long as the v angle is a multiple of 60 degrees. They also add extra bearings, rod bolts and friction points which eats HP, adds weight and decreases reliability. Spherical or cylindrical valve are neat, but have far too much rotating contact area and therefore are high friction. They also must be built to tolerance that are difficult to achieve and impossible to maintain in a running engine. Again, less HP, more weight, less reliability. Solenoids operated valves do allow any valve timing, but they consume massive amounts of electricity to operate. The alternator turns mechanical energy into AC electricity at about 90% efficiency. It is converted to DC at about 90%, then back to mechanical at 90%. So .9x.9x.9 = .73%. So that eats HP, adds a lot of part weight and decreases reliability too. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 326 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie I'm not sure all engines sold for a fraction of the cost many years ago. My Duesenberg cost $40,000 in 1931. (Including the coachwork) The engine, for its day was pretty advanced. Dual overhead cam shafts, 4 valve heads. In 1931 a living wage in the US was $20 a week. In relative dollars my Dusenberg cost Queen Marie more than the Enzo. I think it's a bargin. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 418 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie- Do use all a favor, and list: the weights the engines mass (kg prefered) dry, compression ratios, piston type (pent roof, etc.) rod/stroke ratios (undersquare, etc), crank-type and materials used, hp figures, and max rpm of the engine(s) you have listed; if, indeed, the enzo's engine is so tragically under-developed, then it's 'stats' should pale in comparison to the antiques you've listed, and you will have won the cookie (drop me a P.O. Box, and I'll send you one.) Let's leave the conjecture, and name dropping of a few obscure and unique features, behind and allow the numbers to speak for themselves. No fudging, please. PS- I love how all the old time hot-rodders still expouse to everyone about the neccessity of knife-edging cranks, but have forgotten to look into the fact that most modern engines dont pass through the oil anymore, but are rather cooled by oil jets in the block. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 597 Registered: 5-2002 |
"but I suggest you go to engineering school" And might I suggest that some Ferrari buffs read something besides Forza and Cavallino once in a while? If I've said something in engineering error, please point me to my error, not just tell me to go to school. Otherwise you will offend Rexrcr because he likes facts, not opinions. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2002 |
Arlie, The only thing I see clearly missing from the Enzo engine in a blower. Everything else looks about right. I'm sorry, but I suggest you go to engineering school. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll understand why most of the things you're praising are really bad ideas. That's why you don't find them in any Ferrari, especially the enzo. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1552 Registered: 4-2002 |
HOLY SHI#$$T I AM STAYING OUT OF THIS ONE..... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 596 Registered: 5-2002 |
And Paul, perhaps you should buy an Enzo so that Ferrari will not go bankrupt and have to sell stock on the open market. Even a solenoid valve will have some limiting inertia which can be overcome somewhat by the strength of the solenoid coils. But the solenoid coils are also bulky, which would add heighth to the overall valvetrain in a conventional engine design. The stronger the desired solenoid, the more windings it must have, which will increase its weight and size. Unless you can manage to harness some superconductivity into a VERY small solenoid package, the added bulk will probably limit the underhood clearance. Of course a capacitive discharge system could provide tremendous energy instantaneously to a valve solenoid coil, but the longevity of the coil would be limited by the wire size of the coil winding. Even spherical valves will have some rotating inertia. But the real prize with solenoid operated valves is INSTANT engine start up. You merely press the accelerator and everything starts running. The injectors inject, the valves open, the plugs fire, and the engine is running instantly. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 595 Registered: 5-2002 |
Uh oh, I guess that I struck a nerve when I started mentioning TRUELY advanced internal combustion technology. The truth hurts sometimes. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1022 Registered: 12-2001 |
What are the drawbacks to the spherical valve design mr. engine designer? Ive heard of them as well but for what ever reason the trend is leaning towards solenoids rather than the rotating spheres. I would say the solenoids are better because of independant valve control to drop cylinders for fuel economy which cant be done with the sperical design. Perhaps the ferrari engine designers havent heard of these amazing suggestions you have and you should enlighten them. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1021 Registered: 12-2001 |
Who cares? This isnt marmonchat.com and its not a thread about a boat anchor of an engine. Its about someone posting pics of a work of art that Im sure is well built, technologically advanced and powerful. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 594 Registered: 5-2002 |
And I forgot to mention the latest spherical valve technology with practically zero inertial valve weight. If the Enzo design was REALLY high tech, it would utilize a spherical valve design. Or if it was REALLY REALLY high tech, it would use a solenoid controlled valve that was computer controlled to provide totally independent valve timing utilizing pulse width and position modulation. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 593 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Rexrcr, does that Enzo engine utilize a "fork and blade" piston rod design like the Marmon engine? So that the piston bores are directly across from each other for a totally balanced engine? Can you share with us some of your knowledge of the Enzo engines internal design??? Of course the Marmon was not truely revolutionary either. For a true revolutionary design, try looking up the specs on the Doble Steam Car, circa 1932. Howard Hughes, noted billionaire, pilot, and engineer, made the statement that, "Cadillac, Marmon, I've known them all, but as for me, the Doble is the best". If you want full engine rebuild specs for the Marmon engine, I suggest you dig into your back issues of Cars and Parts magazine from the 80s or early 90s. They did a complete series on the rebuilding of a Marmon V16 engine. Hey Rexrcr, is that enough "opinion" for you??? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1020 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes Arlie, printed circuts but with more than 1 resistor and a condensor on them. Meeting todays emissions standards and making that much power from a small displacement engine is the difference. The balancing you refer to allows around 5 grams variation between SBC or BBC pistons, the ferrari engine is most likely 0 variation. I would take that v12 over any ZL1 engine. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anyone can make generalities as you have about use of aluminum, etc., the difference is in the details. Sure, many "modern" engine technologies were indeed invented/discovered 60 years ago. It's the modern iteration of the design that makes it stand out. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 336 Registered: 3-2001 |
Arlie...all due respect to you, but I think there is a large point you are missing on this issue. This motor will go full out for hours and hours on end, cool off overnight and then do it again...day in and day out. True that this is not a 'new' technology motor (ie: pistons, rings, valves, crankshaft etc.) but the tolerances are to the 'nth degree. There are obvious differences from this motor compared to the 60 year old one which you mentioned. I believe you intentionally exaggerated your comment to make a point, but again...this is not the discovery of 'new type of power generating device', simply the most (or among the most) advanced application of engineering technology that has ever been 'put into' an 'old style motor'. What do you think? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Arlie, why trash this beautiful design? The details of engine design, specific capabilities, use of materials, efficiency, cost to manufacture adjusted for inflation has all improved over 60 years. How about you dig up some FACTS about the Marmon engine such as weight, cost, performance, maintenance requirements, materials, manufacturing process, and we can all compare notes. Be careful, you're showing us the depth of your knowledge. "Without the data, it's just an opinion." | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 592 Registered: 5-2002 |
its got the "solid state / circuit boards" Chevrolet had printed circuit boards in the dash wiring of 1966 Chevrolets. 37 year old technology balanced crank, Every Chevrolet V8 engine since 1955 has a balanced crank. light weight materials,. Aluminum block? Titanium valves? These have been available for what, 30 years? Chevrolet had an aluminum 427 engine block available in 1969; that's 34 years ago. hydraulic valves..... etc. Hydraulic valves have been around for 40 years. What's revolutionary about that? | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 158 Registered: 8-2002 |
horsefly.... this engine does not have "the 60 year old vaccuum tubes" its got the "solid state / circuit boards" balanced crank, light weight materials, hydraulic valves..... etc. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 589 Registered: 5-2002 |
Reminds me of the aluminum block V16 engine built by the Marmon car company here in the U.S. over 60 years ago. (of course Cadillac also built a V16 back in the 1930s) What's the big deal? One would think that after 60 years of automotive evolution, the thing should be half the size, put out twice the horsepower, run on something other than dead dinosaur bones, and sell for a fraction of the cost as engines did 60 years ago. Look at computers. Would somebody make a big deal out of a computer that still used VACUUM TUBES in its memory bank after 60 years of development? | ||
| izel k. (Ferrarist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2001 |
so extreme! Shaking the world it when starts to roarrr very nice pictures thanks for posting them. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2002 |
simple.... lethal... gotta love it.... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 759 Registered: 4-2002 |
You know, for better or worse, Ferrari really does impressive looking engines!!! Sombitch just looks fast. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 361 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dan, My message was shorter, maybe that is why I got it 1st. Great PICS! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1128 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, do you think it'll fit in my Sentra...? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 190 Registered: 9-2002 |
You got in there quick! ;) --Dan | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 360 Registered: 3-2002 |
damn, we responded quickly! Now if only I had the f-car that correlates to my post count.... :D | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 189 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hmm, now if only I could get it to fit in a formula ford.... :D --Dan | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 359 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'll take 3 !!! | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
New member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2002 |
Need power and speed anyone??    |