| Author | Message | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 981 Registered: 10-2001 |
Matt, I couldn't agree more! | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1402 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob, I got the boxer in really bad shape and in the end it is going to cost to fix more then it is worth on the retail side. For me at least, fixing it is worth more to me then to let is disappear. It's more emotion to see an old car drive again then to let it waste away. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 973 Registered: 10-2001 |
The only thing that makes sense about these cars is that they don't make sense! Confused? Then don't buy one! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 632 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ken, there is a local 328 in very nice condition that has been put on E-Bay three times. Of course as always, the reserve is never met. Now in my world, something is only worth what somebody is willing to give. And after three strikes, I would say that somebody is NOT willing to give what they think it is worth. So they should just learn to live with their car. But in the real world, sellers just keep on trolling for suckers with more money than brains. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 902 Registered: 5-2002 |
looking at mcdonalds stock (mcd) there may not be anymore burger flippers in 20 years. Times are tough money is tight. | ||
| Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
Junior Member Username: Gerritv Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2001 |
I learned from my years of owning a sailboat: Hobbies donot need to make financial sense. Their sole purpose is emotional satisfaction. So, spend what you want to spend and just enjiy the heck out of the car. If, like me, you get pleasure out of doing the work yourself, then you can save labour costs and spend it on parts :-) | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 664 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ha! Maybe Pessamistic! In 20 years a burger flipper may make $75k a year due to inflation! | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 341 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ken....being a little optomistic, aren't we? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 663 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie, you seem to imply prices of older Ferraris (et. al.) are artificially fixed which of course is not the case. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If prices are high then that car is in demand, if low then it's not. Arlie, you CAN own a Ferrari. You can buy one for less than 20k, and take your time fixing it. Learn how it works and do it yourself and you'll have a fine car in time. I chose the Lotus Europa route because I can do most of my own restoration and it's such a cool, classic car. I get more looks than anyone except Lamborghini owners. I think the collector market today is very attractive. In real dollars, older Ferraris are cheaper than they've ever been. Yes they're expensive to fix but you can save a ton just by being smart about it. As a kid I never thought I'd be able to afford a Ferrari but even though I'm not an owner (yet) I could easliy be one. I enjoy my Lotus though and 2 toys for me would be a bit much. So I'm quite happy with the state of the used Ferrari market. I bet in 20 years a 308 will cost $100k because they'll be really scarce. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave At a certin point I think you'll find you can have a machine shop make parts like the one's you described for much less money. Best | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 481 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ferrari don't help the situation. I luckily bought a well together car, but nonetheless I still had to buy a very few cosmetic items to get it from very good to superb. Just bought two external mirror mounting plates for the 348, they cost me a whopping �300 ($450) and the dealer (main UK importer) even had a 0.72 pence (1 dollar) line item on the bill for the goddam Jiffy bag they were posted in.....unreal! BTW off topic but the external mirror triangular mounting plates are the subject of a modification from plastic to aluminium (aluminum). The old plastic ones were a joke and they crack, at that price I hope the revised ally ones hold out better to the job. Manufacturer of old and new is Gilardini. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Junior Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 200 Registered: 9-2002 |
Wow this thread is depressing.... almost makes me not want another f-car...almost. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 796 Registered: 4-2002 |
1. Even something serious like an engine can still be economically feasible if you DIY. Yeah, you have to factor in your time as $0.00, but generally you can still be dollars ahead if only parts are considered. 2. Often an engine refresh/overhaul is an opportunity to 'soup 'r up'. If you wanted to hot-rod your Ferrari, you'd still be out the big bucks anyway. Does it somehow make more economic sense to pour $10K++ into a high performance engine, as compared to just a simple rebuild? No. Not at all. But many of us do it anyway.  3. Expensive repair bills are precisely what keeps Ferrari prices up. Yes, you read that right. If you know that a ratty example could cost some really big bucks to repair, wouldn't you rather pay up for a car in excellent shape? If we were talking about an old VW bug, it's irrelevant whether or not you get a good car. Motor blows, so what? $50 in parts and the use of the kitchen table for a few nights gets the car back on the road. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2002 |
If the parts and labour add up to more than the car is worth ... never mind you had fun restoring it, and now you can enjoy driving it. It is not just about making money, some car enthusiasts actually like the car, and thus the money spent is for the hobby not for the car. That is how I look at it ... it has not been possible to make money out of restorations for many many years ... unless you do a questionable job. Thus enjoy the hobby and if you bought your car to make a profit ... oops!, I am not going to be the first to laugh at you Pete | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 939 Registered: 3-2001 |
As the economy continues to slowly slide downwards, people who once had money have lost much of it. I'm talking about self-made money, not family money. That's why many higher end F-car prices are spiraling downward. Take a look at the recent posts regarding 355 and 360 prices. As more of these cars hit the market due to desperate sellers, the glut will increase and prices will continue heading down. Times are tough right now. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 900 Registered: 5-2002 |
10k gt4's can only be parted out.or u can die with it. It is an awful shame but a lot more fcars are becoming more $ to fix and even make driveable (not show condition) then they are worth or will be worth for a long time. Arlie is right on.I dont know anyone dropping the money being asked for muscle cars from the 60's. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 366 Registered: 5-2002 |
As far as repairing vs. selling. For me I think it's about what I want out of the car. When I bought mine, it wasn't a perfect car, but it was sound and didn't need anything I couldn't fix myself. I enjoy doing the work, so I bought it. I�m just not careful enough to keep it perfect and honestly, I couldn�t afford a perfect one anyway. I got, drove it and loved it. After about 6 weeks, it caught fire. The estimate was 18k, I settled with the insurance company for 16.5k. I had a decision to make. The smart thing to do was to sell the car, it still ran and the market was good, I think it would have sold for about 15-18, put that with the insurance money and I could replace my worn QV with a really nice one. But the truth was that there still wasn�t anything broken I couldn�t fix myself, I still enjoy doing the work, and I�m not a big fan of stock anyway. I decided to fix it the way I wanted it and enjoy it. I like it much better now than when I first got it. IMO, it is the best car I have ever driven. But if I was thinking concourse, I hope I would have had the sense to sell it. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 626 Registered: 5-2002 |
DES, the bitterness was brought about when I looked at one of the most recent issues of Old Car Trader magazine. Hundreds and hundreds of nice cars for sale, but everybody thinks they're worth thirty, fourty, fifty thousand dollars and more. The AVERAGE guy is the backbone of the car hobby. And no AVERAGE guy that I know of is paying those astronomical prices for a HOBBY car. It's as if the car "hobby" is being held hostage by high prices, and nobody is really paying the big bucks, except the rich elite. So the hobby stagnates and nobody has any fun. Back to our regular program. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tillman, I love your idea to specifiy rulls for a race series utilizing some otherwise unloved chassis. If there was an organized forum, with a credible sanctioning body (FCA, FNA??, Beuler...) guys will do it. It may even revive the 360 Challenge with more overall competitors. Plus, racing expenditures are rarely rational, so the older high milage cars are a natural fit. Mr. Lay, rhetorical question: how much have you spent on your Spec Rx7? Way more than it's worth on the street or even to another racer I'm sure. But you've had great fun, I'm sure of that, too. What will this take to push the concept forward? Have you guys discussed this before? (I searched...(rule # ... )) | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2001 |
I ran into a guy in a Cafe not long ago who was into planes, not cars. We shared our mutual 'hobbys', compairing costs, reliability etc. When compairing costs and reliability my 308 was considerably more $ in purchase price and parts, and quite a bit less reliable. He had a MiG-21 bought just after the break-up of the Soviet Union (some could be had for as little as $15k!). A 40 year old Soviet fighter jet more reliable and less costly to maintain than a 3xx series Ferrari (maintain, NOT rebuild - then it would be a whole different story). I do believe there is a point at which one needs to decide just how much money is this 'hobby' worth before even the most dedicated have to say 'enough is enough'. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3225 Registered: 12-2000 |
Arlie is right, too many collector cars in huge collections that are never seen. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1258 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie, you seem really bitter this week... i mean- even more bitter than me, and i didn't think that was possible... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2002 |
Personally, I wish the bottom would fall out of the collector car market (Ferrari included) so that people who want to enjoy the HOBBY can easily buy their desired car and the profit mongers would have to get a job to earn their big money. From what I have seen, most dealers are simply middlemen who delight in "intercepting" a car before the end user can get ahold of it. Definition of "intercepting": the act of buying a collector car dirt cheap from long term owner and quickly trying to gouge a gigantic fat profit from potential buyers without doing any work. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 391 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob, Although many Ferraris can now be bought for fairly everyday prices, they are not cheap to own, never will be. There is a risk in owning any Ferrari. As you said, something can easily break and cost 10K+ to fix. I know the risk and I'm willing to take it. I think this is one reason a very high percentage of Ferraris are owned by entrepeneurs and not professionals, even with incomes being equal. They appeal more to people used to taking risks. Dave | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 660 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jay, I did the same with my Europa. I bought a car in rather good condition but not restored. I've spent a fortune on it; much more than I spent for the car itself in fact because I want a great, reliable, beautiful car. I'll never see that money back but that's not the point. It's a driver, not a show car. More of a race car actually. When the 308's get scarce enough, they will become more valuable but until then it's people like us who restore these cars for the love of the car and not the money. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 971 Registered: 10-2001 |
Rob I bought a 308 GT4 that needed alot of work. Suspension, brakes, interior and more. The engine was rebuilt but still needed finishing. Including the purchase of the car I'll probably be into it for about $25K (Canadian). When it's finished everything will have been done. I bought the car not to resell but to drive. By doing it this way I know exactly what has been done and I don't inherit anyones problems, basically I can get in a drive without worrying about a coolant hose blowing on me. Bottom line, if you are buying one of these cars you can't pay too much for them. If it is already paid for and yours, I still think it is worth fixing. You'll quickly forget the price tag when your driving down the street. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2392 Registered: 12-2000 |
You could say the same thing for old Jags, Benz's, Porsches, etc... Most of these cars will end up being so neglected, they'll only be worth scrap-value (take a look in your local classifieds and see what I mean), but there'll always be a core-group of folks who'll put in the blood, sweat and tears to save a few. If I had the time and space, I'd be saving these $10K GT4's... | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Junior Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 77 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am learning this the hard way. I am going through some expensive repairs right now. The problem is I dont think I am doing it for resale value. I am doing it because I like the car and like to drive it. Also, repairs can be done over time unless it is major, as opposed to buying a more expensive car in better shape(that you dont know what you might run into). Tillman makes a great point. My car may never be a concourse car and that is OK. I just sold my Corvette. Kind of took a beating on it compared to what I bought it for 17 years ago and what I put into it. It is hard to justify the repair costs but it is also not much different then any other previously owned car. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2001 |
This is the the reason the $10K GT4s never sell either. It hurts to not be able to save them all. However, they only make any sort of sense to those who are actively looking for a car to rip apart and rebuild. Of course, car enthusiasts are not known for making logical decisions. You know how much work was put into my car before I got it; while I'm thankful, does it make any real sense for the previous owner? Then again, not everyone is dead set on a concourse car. I have several friends who love the Fcars, and wouldn't mind driving something that maybe burns too much oil, or is a bit too rusty, etc. The problem is those kind of cars don't sell, because the owners cannot get past the "it's a Ferrari, it's worth $xxxx no matter the condition." Maybe we need a spec 3x8 racing series, to encourage these cars to be rebuilt for at least tracking purposes Or maybe buy them all cheap, do minimal rebuilds on them and rent them out on track days | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 659 Registered: 10-2001 |
I made this point in another thread. You can buy older Ferraris 'cheap' because of the expense of fixing/maintaining them. I think you'll see enough older Ferraris (esp. the "3" series) disappear over the next 20 years that they will eventually become quite valuable and thus worth the expense to own. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 363 Registered: 4-2002 |
True, but a lot of cars have emotional value to the owner as well. Also, if you rebuild the engine, you are driving around with a 0 miles engine. If you plan on keeping the car (don't we all, but it never happens) then it might be worth it. (to you) | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3223 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hanging around the local Ferrari shop I've seen several cars the past year that when you add up parts and labor for what needs to be fixed, on paper it appears best to run from the car and just get what you can for it. Most were good 308 and 328 cars that needed major engine work. For example, a higher mileage 328 that before the problems was only worth about $35k. One leaky head gasket with the car loosing water. Just to fix that little problem would still be thousands of dollars, but since it's a higher mileage car to begin with, if you have to remove the engine, you might as well rebuild the entire thing. However, we all know that would cost a good $15-20k to do right. So with the leaky gasket you might be able to sell the car for $25k at most, but then you would have that $25k plus the $15-20k you would spend. That would get you into a very nice low mile 328 for $45k. Otherwise you would put $15-20k in and the car would only be worth $35k. Your net would be minus $10k. So on paper it looks like the best thing to do is sell without repair. What will the next owner do? Will the car ever get fixed properly? Is it unethical to sell a car like this? Is it against the F.P.S. rules to not restore a car like this? On a tangent note, this is a huge risk all of us Ferrari owners have. Sure our car is worth about what we paid if still in good condition, but there are several minor things that can happen to these engines that could easily make for a $10k plus repair bill. |