| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 388 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ross It sounds like you found the right person to do the job. Post some pics! Best Jim | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 616 Registered: 3-2002 |
wow, i go away for a few days and you guys go nuts about cambelts ! ok i picked up the car from hrowen on saturday. they only changed the oil and did a few minor things. i managed to speak with the head mechanic there (nice guy, italian heritage, trained at factory), i told him the story (he had worked on the car once previously). he checked the cam gaskets and said they were fine (contrary to the front office report), he said that he thinks all these belts are fine for at least 5 years. he has removed many without any sign of wear at all. but he also has removed some that were on their last legs etc, so basically he thought as preventive maintenance it should be done, and i tend to agree with him now (and after reading all of your comments). i told him that one of my main concerns was that the belt job might be done fine but that all sorts of other things would start going wrong after they put everything back together again. he went throught the whole procedure with me and explained how things were actually built for a relatively easy engine removal and replacement. he also said that if i brought it in, he would do the job personally - which i did not take for granted since he seemed very genuinely concerned. anyway, at the end of all that i think i will get it done by them and have him do it - i wonder if they give any kind of guarantee....? its the right thing to do, and ever since this topic was raised i can't drive the car without thinking the whole thing is gonna blow up if i step on the gas too hard, and thats no way to live. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2002 |
On my '92 I had a 30k right after I purchased the car from Miller Motors. The price was $8,493 of which $4,752 was labor. This included a clutch which I had them put in since the engine was out. I know I paid a premium to have Miller Motors do it but I wanted it to qualify for the 1-year power train used car warranty. Which BTW, I did not need during the first yeear. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting real life cost, from Lee Pieces 308 GTS experience (refer http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/196380.html?1043622597):
Thus a 308 is a lot simplier than a 512TR and a belt replacement should not cost the earth ... hardly worth not doing it then. Need to find mechanics that have their feet on the ground, and do not think they are some sort of god  , it is only a motor, just happens to have Ferrari stamped on it. Pete | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
New member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2002 |
Just to throw some more high octane on the fire...a buddy of mine at an authorized F store told me they received a service bulletin from FNA that now recommends belt replacement on 360's every 3 years regardless of mileage. Ka Ching! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting ... why own a parade Ferrari worrying all the time about failure? I do not own a Ferrari, but I have raced cars, and like Napolis stated you have to really maintain cars that you are constantly risking your life in. Thus I replace for 2 reasons: 1 safety, the other 2 win races ... to finish first, first you must finish. Thus if I was to buy a Ferrari, I want the whole experience not just the looks. Thus major service would be required to evaluate and then replace ... things like belts. In this case I have an advantage to some, as I would be perfectly capable of doing the work myself ... and if specialist knowledge was required I have contacts Ferraris are fast cars, and expensive when broken. Thus yes you maybe able to buy a second hand 308 motor for less than the replacement of the belts, but then what about: * Cost of removing and installing new motor. * Cost of NEW belts for this second hand motor , or are you just going to continue using up all the second hand stock of motors * Risk that the second hand motor has actually been driven by somebody really HARD, and thus was not in as good condition as your old motor ... Thus in my conclusion, replacement and maintenance of the existing lump has to be cheaper, and keeps the car original, maintaining resale value. I also cannot see a 308 Ferrari costing anywhere near as much as a 512TR for the belt job as a 308 Ferrari is a simple beast ... Anyway each to their own. Pete | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2003 |
PSk- I did not say that my engine is "a supermarket replaceable item". For some of us that don't make that much a year, cost is a major factor. And when I see rebuild costs that are higher than replacement costs, I have to choose the less expensive option. I do believe in doing preventive maintenance, but if a bill ever reaches $5k for my 308's engine, I'll replace it before work on it. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1688 Registered: 9-2001 |
Coachi, the 288GTO does have an access panel that allows you to change the cam belts with the engine in the car. When I got my Boxer I had the car inspected including cam belt condition. They look "as new" , have the proper tension and are nice an dry. I do not plan to change them any time soon, even though the horror stories I have heard do concern me. I do know that mine have been changed at some point in the car's life as the belts have "Ferrari" stamped in white rather than in green as came from the factory in 1982. I am willing to take the risk at this point as I don't feel that it is high enough to justify the $7k to $10k I have been quoted it would cost for a full 30k service. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 321 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dr. Ibrahim - you are echoing my concern exactly. I had not changed my TR belts since ownership (1989). The only reason I did so was that a lot of little things had to be done (fuel lines, etc.). The Boxer needed fuel pumps, regulators, injectors, fuel lines, etc. etc. Thus, the service was done only because I had a number of other issues. If everything else were fine, I do not believe I would have pulled the engines for the service. But that would have been my decision - balancing risk and benefits. My risk, my benefit. I can tell you that barring other issues, the next belt service will be done sometime during the 2nd or 3rd decade of this century. Jim S. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think JRV is right, it has a lot to do with how you use them. In my day I've had wheels break off at speed, belts break, hoses blow, con rods break in two and ventilate blocks, turbos let go and set engines on fire, chassis crack, and this was in cars that were maintained. Indeed every time I drive my MK-IV, after making sure the oil is nice and warm I rev it to 7,000 which is pretty high for a 427. James is also right it's something everyone has to answer for himself. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 692 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>When you ask a professional ferrari mechanic how much will the replacement of the belts cost, he humms, huhs, mumbles and then he says he will get back to you with some figures and he never does.<< It All Depends on Condition & Intended Use! Sign a waiver promising to never rev the engine over 3000rpm and the cheaper it can be done (more corners can be cut & short cuts taken). The Absolutely Positively Truthful Answer: "Depends on Condition & Intended Use, Cost = Time & Materials. I rarely (never) know exactly what doing an excellent job will cost till I'm done and I add it all up. But if someone 'demands' an answer I ask for one piece of information from them first to calculate from,..."To calculate the cost Sir, first tell me, "How Long is a Piece of String?" | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2435 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dr Some posters have said they had them changed and then they broke - prob do to being done incorrectly by the mechanic or on rare occasion - a faulty rubber belt. Remeber with belt changes valve adjustments and tensioners are also done | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2002 |
by the way folks, has anyone had the experience of changing their belts, THEN having them break? Can anyone fill me in on that? | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2002 |
You guys are scaring me to death with these belts. I have three belted F cars... never have changed the belts. They stay in a comfortable garage and are hardly ever driven. They are heated, airconditioned and hardly have any miles on them. I am ashamed to say that I have never changed the betls on these cars...no one in this area wants to do a reasonable job for a reasonable amount and in a specified amount of time. When you ask a professional ferrari mechanic how much will the replacement of the belts cost, he humms, huhs, mumbles and then he says he will get back to you with some figures and he never does. If anyone will do mine for $ 3200 apiece, I would be very grateful. These guys scare you, mentioning loads of time (how else can they bluff the massive bill they will give you) and loads of money. Owning a Ferrari is not cheap, but, neither are belt changes. I hardly drive the cars.... one day, when someone offers me a decent price for them, I will sell them all and keep my older cars with the chains. I think this belt thing is too wacky and I am ashamed to admit, I have a 83 Boxer (less than 5000 miles) and an 86 TR (less than 10,000 miles) and I have never changed their belts. If you can find someone to come to my place and pull the engines (what a waste of time...why couldn't they design them where the belt changes would be less labor intensive)and replace the belts, tensioners, whatever, let me know. Thanks. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 320 Registered: 6-2002 |
JRV and James G. - Nice to know that others, besides physicians, struggle over cost versus risks. However, they represent two ends of the spectrum. In health care and aircraft design, cost becomes a secondary factor. The consequences of failure are simply unacceptable. In automobile repair, the issue is cost (yes, we all can envision an engine failure leading to road accident, but bear with me on this one). If we agree that cost is the issue, then it is a risk/benefit analysis - unemotional. It cost me this much to service twice in 10 years: It cost me this much to rebuild an engine. Where to the curves cross. Gray hair has an interesting impact on behavior - it tends to filter emotional reaction, and passes (like a high or low pass filter) experiential observations (wisdom). I prefer that my doctors and pilots have gray hair. The advent of managed care was a backlash reaction to physicians not balancing cost with what they do. I practiced 20 years prior to and during the managed care umbrella, and believe it was necessary. Society does not pay physicians well because they have an M.D. degree, nor because they spent 12 years in school, or because of their loans. I had engineering colleagues far brighter, with more years of school (PhD) and equal loans that were driving Taxi cabs. No, society is willing to pay those who assume responsibility. A doctor who orders every test in the book and refers to multiple specialists, in my opinion, should earn less than one who carefully evaluates the patient and establishes a diagnosis and treatment plan. That is what managed care strives to do. That is what JRV is being paid for - to assume responsibility. Tell me what you think I should do, balancing costs and risks. If every customer experiences excessive costs so that JRV "sleeps better at night", then word will get around that he is too expensive, and business will suffer. If he is cavalier with his assessment, never servicing anyone, then these mechanical failures will pile up and word will get around (all this, of course, in theory). It is the responsible balance that differentiates good and bad doctors and mechanics. To me, the belt change is a dollar / risk issue. My dollar, my risk. Not driving the cars hard, I choose to wait and watch. Jim S. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 689 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mr. G, Sure I have guys I've taken care of for years also that just drive and monitor general condition and leave all the diagnois's and service needs to me. But this reminds me of a story, years back while restoring an old 212 vintage racer (posted pic of engine on the Dyno in Showroom I believe) the cost of engine rebuilding became a question, trying to address the different needs of the engine, balanced against what the owner wanted to spend, in the end I just asked him, Do You Want a Parade Motor or a Race Motor. BTW: All you Belt Guys...I just finished a 1980 308 a month ago with original belts! Yep 22 years and didn't break. Car had 9K miles. I'm doing a 328 right now 1986 original belts...yep..16 yrs..didn't break (loose as hell)..26K miles. Conclusion...no telling how much lack of service you can get away with on Parade Motors. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 379 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Hey at least you give them the choice. When Salvatore deceided that my TR, after 14 years and 115,000 of rain, sleet, and snow had had enough he told the sales department to sell it. If I had bitched he would have simply called my wife and then I really would have been in trouble. He did wait until I was away on vacation though. When I got back the car was gone. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 686 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>JRV - I agree. However, I am the one driving the cars, and know how hard I push them. In this case, acceptable risk is measured by this observer. << Understood, hence my comment about 'outside pressures/influences. Most of us try and asses in hopes of striking a balance between cost and risk. One of the hardest jobs I deal with is the internal struggle of trying to keep costs down while at the same time assesing risk using my experience to understand the consequences of mis-judgeing. Risk assesment and risk management is a very difficult part of this game. Save a buck and win, I'm a Hero, save a buck and lose I'm a zero. Walking that kind of a tightrope is never easy for guys in the position of making the decisions and willing to be personally responsible for the outcome. But in the end it's only my job to advise when asked and the ultimate decision to service or not to service lies with the owner if they reserve that decision for themselves, as you state. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 377 Registered: 10-2002 |
James The 737 rudder valve was a little more complex. For a long time the engineers at Boeing maintained that the valve could not reverse even with old seals and dirty hydro fluid. I bet that the people, traces of who's DNA can still be found in that hill in Pittsburgh, whould have preferred that they hadn't been so sure and had built in a redundant fail safe... Best Jim | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 319 Registered: 6-2002 |
James G. - good points. The fallacy in your presentation is that you cite the failures in judgement. This is most easily referenced by the famous phrase, "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead." Whoever said this, it would not have been known to anyone if he had been hit by a torpedo. That we know of it implies that he was not. All in all, your input is logical and appreciated. JRV - I agree. However, I am the one driving the cars, and know how hard I push them. In this case, acceptable risk is measured by this observer. Thanks for your comments. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 685 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>How far do I take my cars apart before I feel they're safe to drive?<< Great points !!! These types of threads truly show the divergence of perspective. I too James think about the "potential" for failure when analyzing the age old problem, should we or shouldn't we, is it really good enough, or is it not quite good enough. Is there anyway to know certian answers and if not what to do in that case. Is possibly facing the consequences within the bounds of acceptible risk. Not always easy to call when outside influences bring pressure to bear, but most concientious mechanics try to err on the side of caution rather than face the potential consequences of misjudging. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 375 Registered: 10-2002 |
James The following isn't directed at anyone personally. BTW your cars are very nice. I've spent many a moonlit mile in Micro Busses. Someone, when Arton Senna said his steering wheel was too close, as there wasn't time to machine a shorter shaft deceided welding it would do. Mark Donohue deceided running over debris would not damage his tires at the Austrian GP. Bruce McLaren felt the attaching hardware on the rear deck was robust enough when he tested his can am car at Goodwood. Someone deceided the space Shuttle was good to go with rubber O rings that were temp rated out of the range on that day. The boys at Boeing thought the reccomended seal life on the 737 rudder valve was ok. After they flagged us all to a stop I ran back to see if I could help. The 30 year old Lotus 4 wheeel drive FI car that they had taken out of the museam, inspite of someone's assurance that it was safe had failed. I remember the face of the Marshall who earlier that morning had cleared the crowd for me so I could drive to the grid looking at the stump of his sheared off leg. I remember the other Marshall who was dead. I remember the helmut of the driver. His head was still in it. His body was not. How far do I take my cars apart before I feel they're safe to drive? Water, oil, and 120PSI of gasoline flow through the chassis tubes of my P4. This is how far I go...  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1684 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferraris first used Pirelli cam belts on the Boxer which had "Ferrari" stamped in green on the belt. Later Pirelli belts had the "Ferrari" stamp in yellow and then white I believe. In 1997 or so Ferrari changed to Dayco belts which have "Ferrari" stamped in white. So, if you have a Dayco belt on your car then the belt is probably OK because it is only 6 years old max. The belts will last 10 years or more as long as thet don't get oil on them or a tensioner bearing fails and causes the belt to fail. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well said but:
This statement does not relate to wearing parts that were designed for a limited life in the first place. Yes, I agree that newer designed belts are probably better, and could last longer but how much longer ... risky business ... but I would not risk it myself. Maybe the belt manufacturer should be consulted. Pete ps: I can see that you appreciate the engineering and do not think of your Ferrari engine as a supermarket replaceable item like a toothbrush, which gets thrown out when worn, as Randall does. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 313 Registered: 6-2002 |
PSK - emotion is fine. No offense taken. Yes, I do have an engineering degrees (Carnegie Tech and MIT). Yes, I own 4 Ferraris, yes I have done engine rebuilds on some of them, yes, I have recently spent north of $22,000 on two of them with engine-out belt service. No, I will not do service in 2008 (I will not drive 50,000 miles on each between now and then). Yes, I plan on keeping the cars, and take great pride in ownership. I simply believe that the issue is overstated. Yes, belts do have memory. However, the newer belts manufactured by TRW (I believe this is correct) are likely better than the ones installed in 1983. Furthermore, and I may experience a rude awakening on this issue, I do not believe that catastrophic failure is as likely as an inadvertent assembly mistake, or as likely as a newly installed seal failure. (I use these two as examples only.) There are risks and benefits to everything we do - be it medicine or Ferrari repair. I suspect, and this is only a sense - that there are more catastrophic failures of engines following rebuilds then after 5 years or 50,000 miles on correctly installed belts. This is a simple statement, but profound in its implication vis-a-vis Ferrari service. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." Both of my engines were removed for reasons other than belts, and, oh by the way, let's do the belts and tensioner while we are at it. The Testarossa had fuel line issues, and it was simply easier, and consistent with belt replacement. The Boxer needed injection system overhaul, shift-linkage adjustment, and numerous other minor issues, all of which were easier with the engine out. Furthermore, I wanted the Boxer engine bay brought back to factory condition/specification. I would like to believe that the bean counters had something to do with the decision (5 year/50,000 miles). Stated in the alternative, this was a business decision, weighing the risks and benefits of episodic failure versus heartburn of service. If 5% of owners experience failure at or before 5/50,000, then why have 95% suffer the expense and time of service? This issue is resolved when the consequences are placed in equipoise. These are not the comments of an uneducated nor inexperienced owner. My first Dino was acquired in 1976. The second in 1980. The Testarossa in 1989. The Boxer and C4 last year. Looking back over the years, I can categorically stated that every dime that I put into my cars, and there were many, were due to pride of ownership, and not out of necessity. In many cases, if I had left things alone, I would have been better off. Sorry for the diatribe. The wine is good for my heart. Jim S. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2002 |
I just do not get some of you guys arguing over this cam belt replacement. Would you replace tyres that have many miles on them or are old but still look okay?. Yes or No. Rubber ages and can become dangerous!. Plus the engineer that designed the engine has a whole lot more experience on that engine than all of this sites posters put together * ten, tells you to replace them at X miles or so many years ... and you ignore his advice, and start quoting that one car out of 100 will go 5000 miles further!!! All this to save a small percentage of the purchase price and running cost of an expensive car. Then you say:
Many cars have this requirement, like a V6 Toyota Camry that has to have the engine removed to replace the rear spark plugs. What you guys are not thinking about is that in many cases it is easier to do a job like this with the engine out anyway, and taking an engine out of a car (some anyway) is no big deal ... would guess that a 512 might take a while, but then again nothing here will be cheap anyway. Do the guys that are questioning Ferraris service intervals have any engineering or car repairing experience ... some obviously do, but those are the ones that say replace the f*gging belts. The other thing to consider is that these belts get noicy with age and in my experience (I have never worked on a Ferrari, but my father has been a service manager at a dealership that did) they sound much more refined with new belts. In the end, I would not like to buy a car, let alone a Ferrari, off someone with this anti-maintenance attitude, as God only knows what shortcuts have been taken elsewhere ... buy a Chev if you want to abuse machinery, not a Ferrari. This attitude also goes along way to making the marque appears so unreliable ... just makes no sense. My experience you say ... My family ran a car repair business for many years (plus my father was a service manager for Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. dealerships) and I also have worked as a mechanic and can tell you that cars that are correctly maintained as per the manufacturers specs are FAR better cars. I also will have no sympathy with you if you post in a month or years time and a belt has broken, a valve is dropped, the engine seizes, you loose control of the car and write it off against the armco ... I just hope you do not hurt yourself or somebody else in the process. Sorry to be so emotional about it but I just cannot understand the mentality of running machines until they break (i.e. the comment about just replacing the engine once broken, rediculous, my suggestion: why not just park the car and take to it with a sledge hammer and then buy another ... have you no appreciation for engineering at all!) ... just stupid. Pete | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1506 Registered: 8-2002 |
Neb, Post on the ortega thread in the So cal Section for a shotgun seat. The drive is Feb 23rd. I'd offer it to you but I am taking Jordan | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2002 |
Assuming you got the car for a good price before the resto, you've got a great car for a good price. Can you post a pic, or have you already and I missed it? I'd love to come on a drive.....but my little Fiat will be intimidated..... | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 312 Registered: 6-2002 |
This is definitely a case of equinonecrobeastiality (beating a dead horse). The more I study this and the multitude of similar discussions in the past, the more ludicrous it seems. Here is my take on the "real skinny." I simply cannot believe that any car manufacturer, even as late as 1994, would produce a car that required an engine removal service every 5 years or 50,000 miles. That said, I suspect that Ferrari's engineers that designed the flat 12 with belts studied this issue extensively, and found that the belts (and cogs, and tensioners, with oil dripping and washing the car in icy climates) would perform for many miles and months beyond those stated. However, there is an expected statistical variation, and likely a normal (Gaussian) distribution of catastrophic failures. Consequently, to cover their rectums, they publish a "recommended" interval that protects them from occasional litigation. As I suggested earlier, my two recent services revealed virtually like-new belts and bearings. Perhaps others could chime in on the condition of their belts and bearings (at the time of service) to get a sense of the wear and tear factor. My thoughts. Jim S. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1505 Registered: 8-2002 |
Neb, I got it back in Early Dec. I drove it for about 3000k miles. All in all the restoration was $39,000. It's going back in the shop for some more work. I was told I have burned valves now. It is going to Enzo Motors and Monaco Motors for a second and third opinion.  sad day. BTW you are welcome on all of our drives. Visit the So cal Section Matt | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 654 Registered: 5-2002 |
Aren't Ferrari engines stamped with the serial number of the car/chassis? If you swap in a different engine, years from now your car will be worth much less than the next car that is ALL original. At least that's the way it works with most collector cars. You could swap in a different engine if you wish, but for retention of future value, I would maintain possession of the original engine block. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1504 Registered: 8-2002 |
. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2002 |
I forgot about your 512, Matt. Sorry if I over reacted. My bust.....I've relaxed and my blood pressure has returned to normal. BTW - How is the 512? Didn't it just get finished at the shop? Is it on the road yet? What are your impressions of the car? | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
I just recently (last month) bought a 308gtsi and have been wonderng about the timing belt issue. People say if it breaks, it will cost $10k to repair. I've seen many 308 2v injected engines complete rebuilt for $7.5k. It seems to me that it's cheaper to just replace the engine than repair, or am I off track? And if the dealership wants $5k to do the work, why not just replace the engine, and havea spare to rebuild to your desires? As far as a $40k repair bill, I'm positive I've seen these engines for sale for less also, so wouldn't it make sense again just to replace instead of repair? Oh well, just my thoughts. But I would love to hear input since I'm pretty new to this whole Ferrari ownership thing. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1503 Registered: 8-2002 |
PS. I own a 12 cyl too. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have no experience with Ferraris and their belts, but many cars use them and breakages do happen (on one of my cars) and on performance orientated cars that usually means valve to piston contact and thus new valves, cam work, new pistons and thus a HUGE chunk of money. These belts are considered replaceable, wearing items and should IMO be replaced more often than not. If I buy a car with belts, I always replace regardless of previous owners stories or mileage ... not worth the breakdown IMO. Relatively the belts are cheap compared to a full engine rebuild ... even for a Ferrari. I am a big believer in preventative maintenance, it really is cheaper in the long run. If you do not change now ... when are you going to ... how do you work out when, atleast if you do change you can then know roughly when they should next be changed, as you use the car, etc. Pete | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1501 Registered: 8-2002 |
Neb, My problem was that he was telling someone to not get the belts done. That is a $40,000 piece of advice from someone that does not own a 12 cyl. Also he questioned James's issues. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 311 Registered: 6-2002 |
James G. - You are correct. I shortened Matthews name to Matt. I did so knowingly, but after the fact realized that it might be confusing. I respect all of your input on FerrariChat, and do not differ with your thoughts in this thread, although I did not read personal hostility in Matthew's comments. Sorry for the confusion. Jim S. | ||
| Brian Keegan (4redude)
New member Username: 4redude Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ross, I would recommend getting the belts done if you know they haven't ever been changed. The oil leak is probably cam seal(s) which won't do the belts any good. It is the age and exposure to the elements that deteriorates the rubber belt more than actual mileage. As JRV said "Service is cheaper than repair" by a whole bunch! The last dealer I worked for, we did a major service on a '92 512TR with 7700 miles on it. We did all the cooling hoses, fuel hoses, cam belts, tensioners, water pump overhaul, valve adjust, brake system flush, etc. The bill was about $8k total parts and labor. BTW, the labor rate was $135/hr, FYI. Brian | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1620 Registered: 4-2002 |
YES NEB, I CAN SEE A NEGATIVE RESPONSE FROM HIM, BUT SAVE YOUR "AINT" WORDS MORE FOR THE A-WIPES AND MORE IGNORANT ONES HERE WHO POP UP FROM TIME TO TIME...AGREE?? GOOD EVENING BROTHER, BRUCE | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2002 |
No...he ain't bashing me personally, but he essentially told the guy to shut up because he's not an owner. From what I read (and I read it two or three times to be sure) he said he's got no valid opinion because he's never owned an F-car. Sounds rotten to me, I tell ya. Matthew was ignorant, yes, but to put him in his place while alienating other members unable to buy ain't the way to do it. Sorry if I over reacted, but it stinks of the arrogant Ferrari stereotype. You ain't invited unless you can afford one..... | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1619 Registered: 4-2002 |
HEY NEBULA RELAX BRO...DONT GET YOUR PANTIES IN AN UPROAR...AS TOM SAYS. YOU ARE READING INTO THIS TOO MUCH.....TAKE A PROZAC AND CHILL, MAN, HE ISNT BASHING AT YOU PERSONAALY , IS HE??? REGARDS, BRUCE | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2404 Registered: 9-2001 |
nebula Matt also owns a BB which is a 12 cylinder. I think everyone is reading too much into these posts | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Matt, My level of experience consists of driving a few cars and being a passenger. And my wallet has been closed. Does this mean my opinion isn't valid? Jesus Christ dude...Matthew may have been a little ignorant in his post, but your retort was nothing less than F*CKIN' SNOTTY. Not that you care, but my opnion of you just dropped BIG TIME. Not everyone has the means to own an F-car. Sorry. But hey...you own a 308? Perhaps you should keep your mouth shut regarding the "real" F-cars...the 12 poppers, right? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 368 Registered: 10-2002 |
James Matthew's statement about HR Owen is IMHO defamatory and probably actionable. His statement"I'd also like to hear concrete "horror stories," as in: "who did this happen to, and what serial number?" is, regarding the concrete example I had just posted and the absurd notion my serial # would shed any light on this debate speaks for itself. Finally I've read Matt's posts and Matthew's no Matt. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 843 Registered: 12-2001 |
It is better to get them done than to have one fail. Find the best shop that you are the most comfortable with. Is that price in US $$$$? If so it sounds reasonable. Brian Stewart can tell you what the ind. going rate in the US is. If I recall it is higher than that. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 310 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ross - We all know the answer to this question. We simply can't agree on what it is. I recently paid for two major services (Testarossa and BBi), and think that, perhaps, they were not necessary (strictly from the belt perspective). In both cases, I had other reasons to have the engine pulled. Everyone jumped on Matt for questioning whether this Emperor had clothes on. James has had a bad experience. Bad things happen in life. But the economic question is where the lines cross vis-a-vis a belt service every 5 years versus a catastrophic engine failure. It is not at all clear to me. In both my cases, in 20-year old cars without previous belt maintenance, the belts looked like new, and the tensioner bearings were like new. Yes, the belts were "slightly" loose, which is not unexpected. I do not drive the cars hard. Belt "teeth" were like new. In summary, the question, and Matts skepticism, I believe are justified. In the future, my engines will come out only when there are compelling reasons, other than the belts, to do so. My thoughts. Jim S. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ross, I would get it done. Price sounds pretty good compared to US prices. I look at belt changes as insurance. | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
New member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2002 |
The timing belt question is one that will never have a concrete black and white answer. So much depends on the type of usage, climate, frequency of use, etc. There are 512 boxers out there still running on original timing belts after 20 years. While this is obviously extreme and I'm in no way recommending that kind of non-maintenance, it proves that under ideal conditions a belt can last a long time. Another issue not mentioned is that often when a belt fails it is due to faulty tensioner bearings, not specifically a bad belt. And remember...it's all relative...you have a valuable car that has specific service neeeds that most buyers understand prior to purchase. You can do whatever your personal "risk tolerance" tells you but pesonally I'd error on the side of caution. My two shekels... | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2389 Registered: 9-2001 |
you may not be able to tell the condition just by looking at them As you know most car manufactures specify a time/milage limit to replace the belts so visual inspection is not always conclusive - all though most manufactures belts can go longer than ferrari specifies that is a whole another story - also many times it is the bearings/tensioners etc that need to be addressed more so then the belts. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 615 Registered: 3-2002 |
what i will insist on is to get the old belts back. and i will report what they look like so that we can all get an idea of what wear and tear there might be. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 614 Registered: 3-2002 |
ok, you have all more/less convinced me that its money well spent. so i checked around with some of the other uk garages and they are all at about the same rate. so now it will come down to confidence and the best recs so far are for qv. manu, a few people have told me bad stories about verdi. | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2002 |
I would do it. That price is a fair one. 10 year old belt ? I wouldn't feel safe. (I had one break on me years ago ) IMHO | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 655 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Time, ozone, UV, acid rain, air pollution, thermal shock, wear and tear. Many things attack these belts. Some would rely on 11 year old rubber products I wouldn't.<< Absolutely..., type of use, contamination, fiber degredation. The entire belt doesn't usually break, the teeth shear off. One look at how small the teeth are and what a large job they do will quickly allow one to see the potential for failure. But the Old Saying still holds true, "Service is Much Cheaper than Repair". | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2002 |
Matt (L) Intersting you say 5 years is that specifically for the 512 or all models? In the UK and Europe on the 355 it was originally 4 years but reduced to 3 by the factory after a number of failures. Ross The other hing is if the cam seals are leaking this will not do the belts any favours, annoying thing is the parts are probably around �100 the rest is labour! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 367 Registered: 10-2002 |
Time, ozone, UV, acid rain, air pollution, thermal shock, wear and tear. Many things attack these belts. Some would rely on 11 year old rubber products I wouldn't. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1494 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ross, The general rule is 5 year (regardless of milage) or 30,000 miles. They wear due to age, oil contamination, environment. etc. 48 valves hitting 12 pistions at 6,000's is pricy. Get a second opinion from another shop, Not from a kid who lives through his dad. | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ross i believe the material breaks down over time, realistically it's not worth risking however I've also heard some horror stories about that dealer, perhaps take it to a specialist? QV in Ascot, Talacrest in Egham or KHPC in Maidstone get my vote | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1493 Registered: 8-2002 |
Matt, I agree with James, You level of ownership consists of being a passenger and keeping your wallet closed. If you don't have any experience with Ferrari's other then looking at them then keep your unqualified opinion to yourself. Asking for "proof" of a belt break is ridiculous and moronic. James has raced, driven and owned more cars then you have seen. Keep your .02 cents and in a few 100 years you can by a car and have valid opinions. And another thing...you live in the US and HR Owen is in the UK. What could you possibly know about them? | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 613 Registered: 3-2002 |
you guys all make valid points. what i am confused about, even though i have searched through old threads, is what actually makes the belts wear out? if its actual mileage, then they have not seen a lot of that. if its lack of useage, well the car is run on average once every few weeks to keep everything moving - and so far i have not had any other issues. so what makes these belts wear out? just time? do they deteriorate over time even though they are regularly used, albeit not excessively? don't get me wrong, i do not want to risk a major engine problem, but at the same time i am well aware why the dealer gives out 'free' inspections, so am just looking for a way to figure this thing out. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 365 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matthew I'm confused. Are you suggesting I made this up? Unlike you I owned a TR, drove it 115,000 miles and had a cam belt brake resulting in a $40,000 warentee claim. Where does your experience other than your dad owning a 308 come from to make you feel you are qualified to advise someone not to servive cambelts as reccomened by Ferrari? | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2002 |
Here's my two cents: There's a very good reason that HR Owen offers a "free" winter check and oil change. It's an excellent opportunity for them to prey upon people who haven't had any real need to change their cam belts. I wouldn't do it. I'd also like to hear concrete "horror stories," as in: who did this happen to, and what serial number? Even: did the amount of money saved by avoiding unecessary maintanence sufficiently cover all repair costs? | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 502 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ross, The issue rests on evidence of when the belts were last swapped out I guess. If they are genuinely original I would feel very cautious about starting her up again until they were swapped out (makes me feel uneasy just thinking about it and it isn't my car!). My belt (348) has documentedly (as opposed to me actually witnessing it being done!) already been swapped out twice since its original factory fitted one in 91, and even then it is already factoring in my mind as to when I should next get it swapped out. Assuming your belts do need changing (likely from what you say) that quote from a F main agent seems VERY fair indeed and yes there are other items that should be addressed whilst belts were being changed (applicable seal replacement if leaks are present), be interesting to hear what others in the UK may have paid for similar work at a main agent. It would also be interesting to hear the figure for same work quote by a UK F specialist like Talacrest (Manu is this to whom you refer?). Generally, does anyone know if Ferrari operate a reduced rate charge system for parts and or labour to soften the maintenance costs of ownership of their earlier models, like Porsche do? | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 629 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ross!!!! I don't want to be sued for defamation...BUT three words: HR OWEN ...? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Email me offline if you like.. I can speak to my contacts and can have your car checked over by some PROPER mechanics... (these guys occasionally do work for my business) | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1783 Registered: 2-2001 |
You could get a second opnion if you dont trust that shop but dont mess with cam belts, if they have to be replaced do it cus its a lot cheaper than the alternative | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 364 Registered: 10-2002 |
Do it. If they break it could cost $30,000+ Mine broke under warrentee and the bill to FNA was $40,000. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2385 Registered: 9-2001 |
the price seems very good but the UK maybe diff - I think a cambelt change and associated major items are over 5k here in the us at a dealer. You don't mention how long it has been since it had them changed which implies to me they may never have changed them - it that is the case - 10 years on a set of belts should be considered great and you should sign your self up for new ones. One thing I would point out is a leak in that area prob has more to do with assoicated seals.bearings and not the belt but you would need to change them all while your at it. My non-tech 2 cents | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 612 Registered: 3-2002 |
ok i know this is a topic that has been threaded to death, but every car is different and every story is too. so here it is: i bought my 92 512tr with about 16k km on it in june 2000 from the main dealer in rome. the car had a pampered life and had always been maintained by the dealer. when asked, they said that the belts did not need replaced since they were fine and they certainly looked it. and i wasn't gonna argue since the price was an absolute steal. i bought it and drove it to the uk and had the car checked by a local guy that i trusted and he gave it the full thumbs up. so 2.5 years later, and the odometer is up to 22k km. i dropped it off at hr owen for their free winter check and an oil change. the car is working perfectly so i didn't expect anything else. they have come back and said the car checks out except for a bit of a leak around the cam covers, which i frankly have not witnessed at all so..... but they are also of course wanting to do the cambelt change since they know from me that its never been done. telling me all the usual horror stories. but they have come back and given me a quote for doing it at around �2000 including vat ($3200). they are adamant that this is an aggressive price blah blah blah. so my quandary is that a. i don't really want to do it since i don't think it needs it; but then again i am not a mechanic and don't know how to judge the necessity. (any tips on this are appreciated) b. if it has to be done, i would prefer to take it back to italy where i somehow trust them more and am sure it will be cheaper. any thoughts from the crowd? |