| Author | Message | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2001 |
Martin, The next time the New New Auto Toy Store is for sale, perhaps you and I should take over.  Who knows, maybe the Feds will order a liquidation of the dealership. The new owners would be better off changing the name of the business | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3756 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks Mike. BTW the ownership on the Toy Store had just recently changed (again), I guess it is called now: The New "New Toy Store". | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3755 Registered: 5-2001 |
Doody, as much as I agree with you I do not think that other than writting to my congress man I would be able to change the laws on that. Since I have no plans on moving out of state I am kind of stuck between all of that. Howie and I both face the same thing. The good get a bad name from a few, and I would not generally say it is most exotic car dealers. Also going a different route is not as easy. Give you an example: A guy here in Miami imports 40+BMW and has them converted for DOT and EPA. They were not all done right but he got the DOT and EPA paperwork to get titles for these cars. So he gets the titles and sells them. The customers are happy, he is happy. Then he gets a letter the cars were not converted right and they may be confiscated. He uses his own money to buy each one of the 40+ BMW back from his customers, sometimes at a premium. Sends them back for conversion and gets them re-tested and okayed. Sells the cars again but now the Feds are after him for DOT/EPA fraud. He sits currently in jail ona one year sentence. Fair? He has done everyting in his power and actually lost a lot of money in this deal and on top does time for it now. Remember he had all the necessary paperwork in the first place to get the titles. This is the other side of the coin. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
New member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2002 |
I sold my 360 spyder to the Toy Store. What a complete fiasco that was. At one point I called pretending to be an interested buyer and I got the story about how they had a "great yellow/black 360 spyder - JUST what I wanted but it wouldn't be cheap because it was SOOOO rare". At the same time, they were telling me that nobody wants a yellow 360 and they weren't sure they could move it and MAYBE they could give me MSRP - $20k for it. If they weren't so f-ing greedy they would be much better off. I ended up getting a super price for the car and they acted as a broker, and I learned the buyer backed out and they owned that car for more than they could sell it for. I don't feel bad at all. But I digress. The problem with FL, as Doody said, is the laws are just so consumer un-friendly. You're basically screwed if a FL dealer is dishonest with you... that goes doubly so if you're an out-of-state buyer. With the power of the Internet, people are starting to learn REAL QUICK what most FL dealers are all about. The high number of high-end dealers in FL is not due to anything except the consumer un-friendly laws that they have there. As for your business Martin, I don't think joining the BBB would help too much. I'm not a BBB member but they call trying to solicit us all the time. It seems to me that an independent unbiased agency that solicits people to be in their good book isn't much of an independent unbiased service after all. I don't know you Martin but from what others on this site say about you, I'd definitely call you on a car I was looking for. That says it all right there - your biggest asset is your customer base. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 711 Registered: 11-2001 |
martin, while the BBB absolutely positively won't hurt, the problem isn't you in particular - it's the general laws of the state that allow dishonest folks to flourish there, to your detriment and to the detriment of the other good dealers. i would be curious to know how many states have the FL civil rules -vs- the criminal rules like MA et. al. have. working to change the laws is the best solution IMO. doody. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3754 Registered: 5-2001 |
Doody, would you suggest in the meantime that I, as one of the good ones, should join the BBB? Would that give you as a customer confidence and work with me as a Florida dealer? I am open to suggestions. I have to admid, I never looked at business for the legal side. Legal is to be avoided at all cost because it gives you a bad name and that hurts in the long run. That is how I have been in business for 14 years now and pretty successful at that. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 224 Registered: 7-2001 |
As far as another alternative to the Fcar dealer in Orlando, any of you local folks down there could also use European Sports Car Service in Longwood about 10 min from Ultimate Motor Works. They are fair honest, very low labor rates and have been servicing only Italian cars for over 30 yrs. I have used them extensively since my college days and another Fchatter here used them for his first major on his 308Qvalve with very happy results. Carlo and John and Johns wife Ray are hands on good Italian folks. They close shop each day and go upstairs for a nice traditional pasta lunch!! Lunch is superb! I have seen Ron Rice's Countach there to many 308/328 and Testarossa's there as well. Check em out as an alternative to the other exotic maint folks in Orlando | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 705 Registered: 11-2001 |
not sure that's an entirely realistic general perspective, martin. first off, though i can't prove it, my anecdotal data (searching the country for porsches, ferraris, etc. over the past few years) says that there are way more high-end independent car dealers in FL than in other states by any general relative measure (population, total # of cars, etc. etc.). maybe there aren't, but it sure does seem that way. in fact, it seems like there're way more than in CA, and that wouldn't make any mathematical sense. why would there be more? 'cuz the laws are clearly dealer-supportive rather than consumer-supportive. second, the laws are not consumer friendly. you can't ignore that fact. yes, of course every deal should be done carefully with research and verification. however, most of these people won't let you do a PPI without a deposit. while that is entirely not an unreasonable position to take, they don't disclose to the buyer over the phone that they might not get that deposit back (in fact they usually disclose that it is of course 100% refundable and don't mention the laws). it is indeed an "unfair generalization" to say that it's an "ass-rape" state when it comes to car dealings. that'd be unfair to say about any state. the authorized dealers in FL appear to be well-respected. there are plenty of good independents - for sure. but the rules are such that consumers will get screwed more often and more frequently in FL than in states that protect the consumers more. i don't see how one can argue that given the laws and, by my estimation, very high concentation of exotic dealers. my suggestion is for the good FL dealers to band together and support whatever consumer group out there (and you know they're out there) wants to change the laws to be consumer-friendly. if the state changes the laws the whole issue goes away (as will, IMO, many of the crappy dealers). doody. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3730 Registered: 5-2001 |
Doody, I did not take that as a slam against me. It is however a generalization that is unfair. Especially since most of the dealers deal honest and there are as many bad aples in the rest of the country. with this generalization you say that Shelton is and "ass-rape" dealer. I think most will disagree. Expensive yes, but dealing more than fair. I have heard horror stories from the old Foreign Cars Italia, bad news about the sales center at Algar and Frank's story may have only been resolved since his problem has become news here on F-Chat and one of their employees saw the thing onfold here and brought it to management. Otherwise Frank would be in the same position: sue me! It is with everything in life. When you make a purchase this big, see it for yourself and get a referral. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 704 Registered: 11-2001 |
martin - it's not a slam against you. the state of florida's laws on this subject are exceptionally non-consumer friendly. most states have infinitely more reasonable rules and regulations about this sort of thing. and people on this board have had negative experiences with dealers all over the state. not all drug dealers are bad guys, but why hang out with any of them just to find the few good apples? it sucks for the honest players, for sure, but it's certainly not irrational behavior. doody. ps: i believe frank's FNE problem was eventually resolved to his satisfaction, was it not? albeit the process was sub-optimal at best. the same can't be said for a lot of people here still awaiting return monies from many FL auto establishments. pps: i think this board goes a LONG way towards helping out the good guys in FL - as we see all sorts of folks (myself included, back when) posting about "hey - who knows about shop X". | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 393 Registered: 4-2002 |
Same laws. The main problem is everything in florida is considered a civil matter. If you send a deposit on a car that doesn't exist and they refuse to give you your money back. You could call the police in most states, fraud. In Florida? "Sue me" | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3724 Registered: 5-2001 |
Omar, you may want to take a trip down here for next weekend. Monty from Ultimate will be here in Plam Beach at Italia fest. It would give you an opportunity to meet him in person. he is a nice guy. I kind of resent the statement as well of the only state being an "ass-rape" state. Frank Parker's Ferrari of NE-experience comes to mind and many others. Besides most all of the "ass-raping" is down here in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. Ultimate is in Orlando, 200 Miles north! | ||
| Bart McMurry (Mcmurb)
New member Username: Mcmurb Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2002 |
omar, both the red and black one seem excellent to me. this is from walkaround inspection only. the owner lives in my subdivision. he has always had his cars serviced at both ultimate and f-central fla. he had both cars over at the fcar dealership first, before moving them to ultimate some time ago. let me know if you need any more specific info, i would be happy to go over and talk with them for you. i don't know what it is like where the rest of the chatters are, but in cen fla, the f dealership is full of cars. they park more in the parking lot each morning. definately a buyers market. 512 guy, i don't doubt your comments about the guy on the phone, all i can guess is that they may be reluctant to want to take in another 512 at this time (nothing personal about your car). as i said, there are tons of cars for sale here with no takers. (what is your experience where you are?) What gets me is that many of the cars on the showroom floor, including the 512m's you guys are talking about have been for sale since last summer. tells me there is a huge difference in asking price and bids. my suggestion to both is to have patience and maybe surprised that prices may come your way. | ||
| 512Guy (512tr1994)
New member Username: 512tr1994 Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bart, Maybe I was over the top, but you should of dealt with the jerk I had and you will understand my bitterness. He definitely didn't put a good light on what you call a great reputation facility. It was like pulling teeth with them. Oh well, just one man's opinion. Omar go out there yourself and maybe you will have a better outcome. All the best. | ||
| 512Guy (512tr1994)
New member Username: 512tr1994 Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bart, Maybe I was over the top, but you should of dealt with the jerk I had and you will understand my bitterness. He definitely didn't put a good light on what you call a great reputation facility. It was like pulling teeth with them. Oh well, just on man's opionion. Omar go their out yourself and maybe you will have a better outcome. All the best. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
New member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2002 |
ultimate had always had a great reputation and in no way resembled the auto toy store. not even in the same business. gene, who passed away a couple of years ago was a very, very well respected ferrari and lambo guy and always represented cars accurately. can't blame a business for trying to get tthe top dollar for a car, especially knowing the ferrari formula...buy the best car you can afford...you will pay less later!! trust me...i have been f**ked before!!! | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 305 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bart, just wondering, what is your opinion on the red F512M they have from when you last saw it? | ||
| Bart McMurry (Mcmurb)
New member Username: Mcmurb Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2002 |
i happen to live a short distance from ultimate motor works. i have spent time in their shop over the years. they have extensive experience working on exotics and serve as the only counter to the local f franchise. i have seen jag 220's, antique rolls' and several f cars over the years. they won best of show at pebble a few years back with a daytona they restored (have to check forza for the exact year). Nonetheless, they are not the empty headed fools 512 guy would let you believe. they are the nations oldest lambo dealer, so have been in business for decades. like 512 guy i also live in fla, but unlike him i have bought f cars from fla dealers here with no problems. his bitterness seems over the top to me. i know of both of the 512m's they have there. i could care less whether anyone buys them. but when i bought my last f car long distance, i thought it was nice that a chatter took time out of his weekend to go over and look at the car on my behalf before i got on an airplane to do it myself and am offering to do the same for anyone else that is looking for an f car near me. the particular chatter was unbiased and knowledgeable and certainly not emotional about the car or the dealer. i came to beleive that this type of assistance to others was part of owning an f car. i am certainly aware of the image problem fla dealers seem to face, but don't get the idea that we somehow have a monopoly on fraud here in fla. i have lived in many of the other 49 and they didn't appear to be that much more virtuous to me when buying and selling cars. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 384 Registered: 4-2002 |
Howie, it has nothing to do with the dealers themselves, but with the limited consumer protection in the state if / when something goes wrong. As a broker, you know that. I am sure there are many many good, or even great dealers in Florida, it's a large state. However, I would never buy a car from any of them. Why risk it? | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 65 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think what it comes down to is take the risk out of the transaction WHEREVER you buy the car and it shouldn't matter where you get it. Do not send any money before closing a deal (except maybe a 500 deposit to hold the car) and spend the money to fly to the car and have the PPI done with you there. If you don't want to take the time to do this and get burned, well who's at fault? Its not like everyone here has never read a story about a car deal gone bad. I don't understand the trust people have when there emotions get flowing,that just leads to disaster. | ||
| 512Guy (512tr1994)
New member Username: 512tr1994 Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2002 |
Stay away....very shady establishment. No one there knows anything about their cars...just like "Auto Toy Store" in Ft. Lauderdale. I contacted them about trading in my 512tr for their F512m and they were "shady" a**holes. They don't even give you an upfront price...no set price = conartists ripping you another hole. They size you up and try to get everything out of you..They will pick you up by your ankles and shake the last penny out of you. OH, by the way, they don't even own the 2 F512M's or the 512TR...it's on consignment from a local collector in Orlando who has over a dozen F-cars. Looking for a F512M???, look elsewhere, especially NOT in Florida...I live in Florida and I bought my 512TR from another state, that should tell you something about Florida's Exotic Car Dealers. Look at Algar in Philly or Miller Motorcars for the F512M...Save one for me though, looking to upgrade in the future. All the best | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 304 Registered: 9-2002 |
KCCK, its that I dont drive her that much anyway...so It might as well be a Ferrari since the NSX is more a daily type than a f-car. I could use another nice 12 in the garage BTW I se you have a 635CSi...I love 6s! | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2002 |
Omar, Trading in your NSX for a Ferrari? Welcome to the club, and what a good choice! | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 302 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mitch, because they just happen to have 2 F512Ms, and a reasonalbly priced 512TR... Unless you know of another place I can look for F512Ms? One that is a dealer so that I can simply trade in my NSX instead of having to find a buyer etc. | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 354 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mitchell, Perhaps you should note which dealers in Florida "ass rape" instead of blanketing the entire state. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 383 Registered: 4-2002 |
I hear they are alright. However.... ask yourself this. There are 49 other states in the union. florida is the only ass rape state. Why MUST you buy from them? | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 300 Registered: 9-2002 |
What are your thoughts about ultimate motor cars? They are a florida dealer, and a factory lambo I think. Are they bad like the other Fl dealers? Just wondering...they got 2 F512Ms and a nice 512TR.... |