| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Horner (Cmhorner17)
Junior Member Username: Cmhorner17 Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2002 |
I watched the "Ferrari: Victory by Design" special that came on Speedchannel the other night, and it covered many of the early V12 race cars. Most of my knowledge of Ferraris is from the 308 to the present. I never really looked at the older V12 cars before, other than being passingly familier with the names of them. After seeing that show, and hearing those cars race down the road, I have a new respect for the early V12 models. Even from the TV you can tell those cars had soul in them. And the sound of a carb'd V12...well, nothing can touch that. No wonder these cars were what established Ferraris reputation. Now I know why someone would sell their soul to own one. What amazing machines those cars were and are! If you want to see the attraction of the V12 cars, by all means check this show out. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2002 |
Willis, Could not agree more, regarding:
A Ferrari engine no matter how many cylinders is exciting. In the end the techo in me leans towards the over complicated-ness of the v12  , but they are all good. I love the v16 BRM engine (for example) from that point of view. Mitch, A v8 or v12 is not restricted to 90 and 60 degree cylinder angles repectively. Witness what they are doing to the v10 now to lower the centre of gravity, ie. very wide angles. Renault even are out to 110 degrees. Thus there is no necessary inlet track restrictions with either design ... I also would be surprised that they have that much clearance between valves and pistons ... 3mm is huge. I've had a Alfa Sud race engine (12.5:1 comp ratio) that when only one tooth out in valve timing would cause valves to hit pistons ... oops. In the end it is all fascinating stuff , and they sound fantastic ... Pete | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 338 Registered: 4-2002 |
F1 engine technology is about little advantages: in consideration of the number of cylinders; there are three choices; 8 cylinders, 10 cylinders, 12 cylinders. Modern combustion chamber and head design (especially at F1 levels) can support straight intake tracts angled about the same as the valve angle inclination. Modern valve inclination angles for racing motors (and motorcycles) are hovering in the 20-30 degree range. A V8 with such a head design (90 degrees + 20 degrees) would have to have the inlet tracks angled outward--which makes it hard to build an efficient airbox. A V12 with such a design (60 degrees + 20 degrees) would have the intake tracts angled inward--which may cause various clearancing issues in the compact airbox. A V10 with such a design (72 degrees + 20 degrees)has straight inlet tracts perfectly arranged for a conventional airbox. When engine displacement is limited by rules, the way to obtain horse power is to raise the rev limits. More cylinders can have shorter strokes (assuming the bore/stroke ratio remains unchanged) and rev higher. Unfortunately more cylinders weigh more, and end up having more friction. More cylinder engines make more power at peak RPMs but have to carry more fuel to last the race. This added weight mostly cancels out the power advantage. Shorter stroke engines can rev higher as the load on the connection rod is reduced from the lower acceleration of the piston at TDC and BDC. One can shorten the stroke to such an extent that valve actuation limits the rev ceiling. Pneumatic valve actuation broke through the 15K RPM limit and can now support more than 20K RPM. However, it is very difficult to get gasoline to burn fast enough to use the rev range above 20K RPMs. Thereby, F1 engines are sitting in the high 18K and low 19K RPMs at max power. When a very short stroke is used, building a compact and efficient combustion chamber with high compression is very difficult. Compactness is desired because of the finite speed of flame propogation, efficiency is required because inefficiency unloads heat into the engine materials rather than into the driveline. A modern F1 engine with (say 13:1 compression and a 39mm stroke and 100mm bore) ends up having only 3 mm of clearance between the valves and the cylinder at TDC with idilic valve seats. Since these engines run at such a high PRM, they utilize a large amount of valve overlap. This means that the valves are only capable of being opened 3 mm when the piston crossed TDC without interfereing! not much air flows at 3mm. So as the bore/stroke ratio goes up, it becomes harder to extract energy from the headers and tuned intakes. Friction goes up with at least the square of the RPMs, so adding RPM end up adding heat to the disipation equation. Current motorcycle engines (600 cc 105 HP 15K RPMs) are, in fact, limited by a careful ballance between breaking and cooking. None of this analysis is important for ROAD based automobiles. The RPM range is too low, compression is limited by available gasoline, bore/stroke ratio is limited by emissions, and smoothness is limited by customer perception. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1115 Registered: 8-2001 |
Pete, I didn't say you, specifically, were hostile. Sorry if you read it that way. There are people who think anything less than a V12 does not deserve the Ferrari badge. I just wanted to show that Ferrari's mystique (and it's all important racing history) isn't built by V12s alone. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2002 |
Willis, None of the cars you mentioned were road cars, they were RACE cars!, I am only talking about road cars. As pointed out by many others, Ferrari has been equally successful with non-v12 engines. I am not hostile to non-v12 Ferraris just discussing the reason behind the v12 mysteque. In the end it is just my opinion, but I believe that I am not alone ... and this is also one of the reasons that the Daytona is so sort after, ie. the last Enzo Ferrari. BTW: The Brock Yates book is confrontational to the rose tinted glasses view that many have of Enzo and Ferrari. Pete | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1113 Registered: 8-2001 |
What about the 500 Mondial, 750 Monza, 500 Testa Rossa, and 500 TRC? Those were 4-bangers and they (the company and probably Enzo himself) didn't have a problem badging them as Ferraris back in the 50's. Also, check Prancing Horse magazine #143, page 34. For his first car, Enzo produced the AAC 815 (in-line 8) back in 1940. Article also mentioned 248 SP, 268 SP, and V8 158 F1 racer. I don't understand the hostility toward non-V12 Ferraris. The historical evidence sure doesn't suggest that the company has a V12 fixation. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting, I believe that when he sold the car division he sold it completely. One of the big deals about the F40 was that he was involved, thus indicating that he was not involved with the other models around that time. Anyway this quote from the biography 'Enzo Ferrari - The man and the machine' by Brock Yates show how his interest was the racing and the road cars were only there to make money for the racing: Regarding the possible sale to Ford in 1963:
Regarding the sale of the Ferrari to Fiat:
Now this is just one reference, and I like the 308s, Boxer and all, but I still say that the mysteque around the v12s is buying an Enzo Ferrari Ferrari. As for the Dino thing, I did not know that but agree that the Dino was never intended to be badged a Ferrari, why I don't know ... does anybody? Pete | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1757 Registered: 9-2001 |
PSK, I also recall reading that Enzo was involved with the design of all of his road cars through the F40. It was the production that FIAT took over, not the design. And, I disagree, the Dino was not badged as a Ferrari because it was never intended to be one. It was only after FNA complained that the 308GT4 was rebadged as a Ferrari. In fact, if not for FNA I suspect that all V6 and V8 cars would have been badged as Dinos. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank,
The 250GTO and LM is not considered a road car by many (including Stirling Moss, who was racing at the time they were new) ... just because you can road register it does not make it a road car. Look at Jame's P4 for example. But I guess I am wrong as the 250GT SWB is considered a road car ... and it is not a tourer, so you are right , my wrong. BTW: I was talking about Enzo Ferrari's road cars, not all Ferrari road cars with that comment, ie. the 2+2s and like. Also I am trying to make the point that the lust for the v12 Ferrari is as much an attempt for many to own a Enzo Ferrari Ferrari, not just because it has a v12 engine. No Ferrari as badged road car had anything other than a v12 engine until AFTER Enzo sold the road car devision. Remember the Dino was never badged as a Ferrari ... but ofcouse we all know it is a Ferrari ... Pete | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1756 Registered: 9-2001 |
PSK, I disagree that all V12s are tourers. The F50 is certainly not a tourer nor is the new Enzo Ferrari. Nor the 250GTO or any of the many V12 F1 and LM cars made over the years of which most were street legal in their day. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2002 |
Guys we have to remember what the design philosophy of the modern v12s versus v8s are. The v8s are the sportscars and the v12s are the tourers. Infact ALL Ferraris v12 ROAD cars are tourers. A v12 tuned and developed to the same specifications as a v8 of same size, etc. WILL make more power than the v8 due to volumetric efficiency, simply as that, the more cylinders the lighter the individual components and the more revs, etc. The reason they went to the v10 in F1 was NOT power related but packaging and radiator size, ie. a v12 requires more cooling than a v10 and thus larger HEAVIER radiators. Also the v10 is shorter and thus can be packaged better, but the v12 made more hp ... but it is not just about hp. I am sure that if they made a v16 (if allowed to) they would make more hp ... but what a packaging nightmare ... Think of the 4 cylinder versus 2 or 3 cylinder bike engines ... the 4 cylinders smoke the 2 and 3s for POWER, but maybe not in torque. Also that is why Honda built a 5 cylinder for the MotoGP as the weight requirements for a 4 cylinder and 5 are the same ... thus the 5 will be a more powerful engine than the 4. Also yes the v6 engine did pay a huge part in the F1 Ferrari history, as did the 4 (1952, 53) and the 1.5 v8 for Surtes (as mentioned in my previous post) but the v12 250TDF, 250GT SWB, 250GTO and Tesstarossa, 250LM + the Pan America Ferraris, P3/P4 and so on, sure did help the image. In the end emotion has a lot to do with it, but Enzos road cars were ALWAYS v12. Ferrari (road car devision, remember the company split into two) under FIATS guidance designed the 308, Boxer and 512TR, not sure what happens nowadays, but Enzo sold the road car business after the Daytona to FIAT, thus he was no longer involved ... supposeably except for the F40 (which was probably little more than it has to reinstate Ferrari has the top of the tree). Thus emotively do you want to own one of Enzos cars or a Ferrari by badge. Thus I think the v12 popularity has nothing or little to do with the moderns but more about buying an old Enzo Ferrari. That is why I want to own an old v12 Ferrari, because Enzo was involved, no matter how minor, but he was running the company then ... not FIAT. Pete | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 313 Registered: 4-2001 |
When they were running 3.5-litre engines in F1 they said that the optimal number of cylinders was 12 (power, weight, losses etc). When the formula changed to 3-litre they developed V10 since that was the optimal configuration since 8 and 12 were more or lesss equal in performance. It seams that 0.3 litre per cylinder works best. I do also seams that Ferraris V8 have always produced more hp per litre than the 12. Anyhow, I would prefer a 12 and it's 100% emotion in that descision. Ciao Peter | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2003 |
Nebula Class (Nebulaclass), Well said. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 708 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's a personal thing. I love the idea of a small engine with high revs to make power. Look at the displacement of some of those old Ferrari 12's and you'll be shocked how low they are. Thus you have low mass which means they spool up fast. The sound is naturally amazing. As far as actual power and torque, a modern 8 will naturally smoke it. Plus they cost a fortune to rebuild and maintain. But, it's all about romance with these old things. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 196 Registered: 11-2002 |
Basic engine info: 1. the more cylinders you have, the smoother the engine will be. 2. the more displacement you have, the more power you will produce. 3. Short stroke engines are usually short on torque. 4. short stroke engines can gain torque by adding more cylinders. 5. ferrari uses short stroke engines in order to keep the engine as short as possible, allowing for a low-slung hood, and a lower c/d. Add that all together: Enzo wanted power. He also wanted a smooth engine. He wanted good torque, but because he needed a short-deck engine, he could not produce a long-stroke, torquey machine. As a result, he opted to go with 12 cyl, and 60 deg. At 60 deg, a v-engine is balanced best. This provided for a short deck engine, with a short stroke, capable of producing high hp and torque, because it utilized 12 cylinders, giving it more displacement. When the 308 series was introduced, it was meant to be the "poor-man's" ferrari, using a fairly basic V8 that didn't require the engineering and development money that the Columbo V12 needed. As a result, the 12cyls were the engines to have. It's like driving a mustang: would you rather drive the V8 GT, or the 4 cyl dog? While the 3X8 series are BY NO MEANS dogs, when compared to their contemporary V12 counterparts, there is no comparison. Of course, these days, the 8 cyls have taken up he reigns as the sports cars, and the V12's have picked up the GT duty. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2001 |
Agreed it is mostly tradition. But also remember that displacement being equal, a 12 cylinder car will have better performance than a 10, 8, 6, etc. Having said that, remember that many of Ferrari's most successful F1 cars were not 12 cyliner - they were Dinos! Mike Hawthorn's 1958 F1 Championship was in the Jano designed 65 degree 2.4 Dino (290hp) and Phil Hill's 1961 F1 championship car the 120 degree 1.5 litre Dino modified by Chiti making something like 190-210hp and mounted as mid-engine.'61 was the year von Trips was 2nd though he was killed at Monza. The sportscars that Ferrari had success with in that era (with Hill, Rodrigues brothers, von Trips, Gunther, etc.) were also Dinos. The basic design of the Jano engine lived on in the 206GT, 246Gt, and the Dino Fiat road cars from '66 onwards. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2003 |
I dont think he meant old in a physical sense. And the 12 cyl. motors have more toruqe in general because they displace more. Not because of the number of cylinders | ||
| bob snow (Resnow)
New member Username: Resnow Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have a son and a daughter as well as a front engine V-12 and a mid engine 8. I love em all equally but differently. Can't say one is better than the other. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 159 Registered: 4-2002 |
Here in America where we definitely believe MORE is better, It kinda makes you think. A Ferrari 16, Holy Horse Crap! | ||
| Tom Yang (Tyang)
New member Username: Tyang Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2002 |
When did 35 count me as an "old dude!?!" ;-) Tom | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 796 Registered: 8-2002 |
I guess I'm just an "old dude" like your dad then! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 416 Registered: 10-2001 |
If your an old dude like me dad, and likes to talk about the good old days, race history and stuff like that, you LOVE the 12's If your a techy, boy racer that wants engineers to do more whith less weight, you love the 8's. You'll hear more about 12's on car chat pages because "car guys" love to talk about them. I think the 12 was just old engineering before technology learned how to get more HP out of 10 or 8 cylinders. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1902 Registered: 8-2002 |
I love the power and the sound the most. Different then the 8. Both great, but different. | ||
| Tom Yang (Tyang)
New member Username: Tyang Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2002 |
O.K. I'm going to throw my two cents in because I'm crazy about Vintage V-12s. It's not about numbers (0-60, 1/4 mile, etc.). It's about history, emotion, and smoothness. I don't know much about the modern 12s, but there a whole world of old-school charm to the old stuff. My car can be easily beat by a Mustang 5.0, but she pulls like a freight train. Having those classic gauges and a big old mahagony steering wheel looking back at me is a whole different expereince! The newest V-8 I've driven is a 355 F-1, and they're great cars, but my heart is in the old V-12s. Tom http://www.tomyang.net | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2001 |
I have also heard that a few times." A 12cyl is the only REAL Ferari". Not sure if I agree or not...Wasnt there a older 8cyl Ferrari that is commanding high dollar now? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2002 |
The mystique around the 12 cylinder Ferraris, has very little to do with the modern Ferraris. The v12 Ferrari built MOST of the heritege of Ferrari with the Le Mans, sportscar and F1 wins (first F1 win + Lauda, er, okay it was a flat 12, but still a 12, etc.) The 8 cylinder 360 started with the 308 which was largely designed and built by Fiat, after they took over Ferrari's roadcars. Even the use of a flat 12 was after the Fiat takeover ... Thus many believe to really own a Ferrari it has to be a v12. Before the 308 there were only a smattering of ROAD cars that were not v12s, infact possible only the Dino (v6) which was never badged as a Ferrari. Ferrari did make 4 cylinders (Monza sportscar, and 50's F1) and a v8 F1 car that powered Surtes (spelling ?) to his F1 championship + the F40 (which Enzo apparently had a lot to do with ... but Fiat was involved there to), but Enzo's road cars were v12s. That is all there is to it, to own an old v12 you are owning a car that had a engine very close to the GTO's, Testarossa's, as most are based on the Columbo block, even the Daytona. It has nothing to do with on road performance ... after all Enzo was not passionate about his roadcars, just sold them to make money for his racing ... it is about getting close to his glorious race cars, that made Ferrari what it is today. I do not think that you can talk about the 456/550 and 575 like that, but it is an attempt for the company to continue the v12 linage. Pete | ||
| Norman Yung (Storminnormin)
New member Username: Storminnormin Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2002 |
The 12's have a lot of history and tradition behind them. The current 550/575 is the modern continuation of the classic front engine v12 ferrari that ended with the Daytona in the 70's, the Daytona being the last vintage supercar in a long evolution of front engined v12s. Today, I think the v8 and v12 lines are quite distinct in their mission, with neither being "better" than the other. What may be better for one person may not be so for another. The 550/575 does seem to be better suited as a Grand Touring machine while the 355/360 are more tossable. 550/575 are more comfortable on longer drives and more luxurious yet they have awesome performance, whereas the 355/360 is more raw, closer to being a race car. Nothing beats the sound of a v12 at high revs. Low end torque is phenomenal. V8's sound great too, but different. So, I think part of the answer to your question is that the Ferrari 12's have a mistique that is due to both their long and illustrious history as well as their overall driving experience. | ||
| les brun (Labcars)
New member Username: Labcars Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2003 |
This is alot like the 550 vs 360 thread. IMHO, both today's 8's and 12's have their respective virtues. The 8's are tossable, sound incredibly sweet at full song, and are more pure "sports car". while the 12's are incredibly powerfull, smooth, and also sweet sounding in a more (to me) seemingly mature rumbling kind of way. I agree with everyone who's suggested that cars of the same era should be compared in order to get a more valid comparison. I own a '65 275GTS which is nothing like my '01 550, yet I would never get rid of either! | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 135 Registered: 2-2002 |
I drove a 550 for a while. Yes it has more torque, however, it feels a lot heavier than a 360. To me the 550 is more a high end luxury car, like an Aston Martin. Not really a sports/GT car like the modena. ACW | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1902 Registered: 2-2001 |
Back in the days of the dino & Boxer, 308 & Testarossa , and 348/355 & 512TR you could compare the cars more evenly as they were more similair. These days the 575 and 360 are 2 alltogether different animals and are therefor more difficult to compare. Now you have to compare the 360 vs the Enzo to see why a 12 is better and thats a pretty uneven comparison | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 480 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks for the info. I wrote my reply while the other two responses were being written. I will try to drive a 575 and a 360 close together under the same conditions to understand. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 479 Registered: 8-2001 |
Wellllllllllll, I lost my virginity and had a son (was there, cut the cord). I fly planes, climbed mountains, explored caves, am a certified deep diver (even though I cannot swim), jumped out of planes, etc. Almost been killed twice However, I thought the 360 was more of a rush than the Testarossa. One day I am going to have to drive a 456, a 575, a 400 and a 360 close together so I can understand the difference. But until then, why are the 12s better? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 718 Registered: 12-2001 |
Alot has been written about the mystique of the 12 cyl. car ala Enzo and i won't try to pretend i'm covering that history here, but in a few words: there is much history and tradition to the front engined 12, and it still remains relatively unique among sportscars, much as it was then (confined, for the most part, to what, behemoth cadillacs and what else?) Much of the evolution of ferraris engine design, the columbo and lampredi, took place with the v-12. Yes, the 12s currently made are more GT than hard-edged sportscar, but have impressive performance. Drive a 550 that is in good fettle and see what i mean. Its not as wide, low or outrageous as the TR, but easy to drive, comfortable and extremely fast. The level of interior finish is also better. As to which is preferable, the 550/456 or 360, i won't venture an opinion because they have respective strengths and weaknesses. There is also no doubt that the 8 cyl. ferraris have come along way since the 308 series, and now, rather than being considered the "smaller" ferrari, stand in their own right as supercars. There are, however, throwbacks who insist that the only real ferrari is a 12, but this is not a valid criticism of the 8 cyl. cars. (I have owned 3 8's and 3 12's and have enjoyed them all). | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1901 Registered: 2-2001 |
12 have always been special engines since way before Ferrari, back in the 30s Delages, Delahayes, Hispano Suizas, & Lincolns had 12 cylinder engines. They used 12 in all their top line cars. A 12 cylinder makes the engine very powerful yet smooth at the same time & of course its exotic. Ferrari has Almost always used 12s in their top line cars except the F40 & 288GTO. look at all the Ferrari 12s, 250TR, 250GTO, 250LM, 330P4, 312P, 312PB, 512S, 512M and many more. You really cant compare an older TR against a modern 360, its just not a fair comparison. you need to compare a TR against a 308 or 512TR against a 348 or a 355 to get a good comparison or a 575 or an Enzo against 360 | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 230 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dave: It is said that there are three great joys in a man's life: lossing his virginity, the birth of his first child, and driving a 12 cylinder ferrari. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 861 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Is there something I am overlooking? << Have you considered>> They're Very Cool. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 478 Registered: 8-2001 |
I only became interested in Ferraris about a year and a half ago, so I do not have the long history that many of you have. Like many people, I am interested in fine automobiles. I am also a curious person - keeps one young and adds zest to life. One thing I do not understand is why people love the 12s. Can someone explain it to me? The 12s have more torque - this should show up in the 0 to 60 times. Yet the current models are very similar. The only 12 I have driven is the Testarossa. A week later I drove the 360 F1. What stood out in memory is how much more tossable and fun the 360 was. It was not a valid test for acceltration, but the 360 seemed better. The 355 did also. Smart people like the 12s for some reason. On another thread I got the impression that the 360 required more power management to achieve the same results as a 12. Is this true? If so, in what way? Do people like the 12s due to the uniqueness and/or tradition? Are the 12s more confortable and hence a better touring car rather than an all out performance car? Is there something I am overlooking? Thanks for any insight. |