| Author | Message | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 431 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie, Yes, the Trompeter collection was a great one. Ken, I have viewed and bought a lot of collections over the last 30 years, large and small. It is amazing how much you can tell about the person who formed them, like patience, enthusiasm, risk taking, lead following, creativity, whether or not someone was hopelessly cheap or thought he(she) could outsmart the market and dealers plus more, not to mention financial means. The really nice collections were (are) not necessarily the most valuable. The truly great collections reflect both patience, study and means plus take decades to build. Dave | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 727 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have a wonderful collection of about 70 Morgan Dollars. Most are DMPL and it's taken a LOT of hard work to amass it. I've rarely paid more than $200 for any coin and most I've paid under $100. If I had real money it would be an even better collection but I stay within my budget. I resent the notion that all it takes is money to have any fine collection. It takes money to have a really POOR collection, because people of limited means can't afford to buy overpriced merchandise. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2002 |
The same thing can be said about people that made their fortunes and people that inherit. How impressed are you when someone inherits all their money? Unless you are the Hilton sisters I guess! | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2001 |
It's about the work. The more hard honest work, sweat, dedication, desire, hopes, dreams, and sacrifice you put into something the more it will mean. Plain and simple. Cars or coins. Rich or poor. "Outside" people will be more impressed with a greater collection "usually" but no matter how rich or poor you are when you REALLY struggle to have something and get it no matter how big or small you will get intense satisfaction from it. To hell with what impresses others. Many people out there think Ferrari are overpiced metal boxes for insecure people. There a lots of things that are admiral. How about the lady who drives a busted GEO but has spend the last 20 yrs of her life caring for and supporting a child with MS. See her in her cheap ass car and she is a loser?? She works just as hard or harder than anyone else and NO ONE even knows it!! I think a Ferrari is one of a few beautiful cars in looks, sounds, history and performance. They are not the end all and be all of life though. It matters what makes you feel good about your self that matters. A Mondial or all the F40's in the world Whatever it is and whyever if you work hard you will get it and the satifcation that comes with it. I know a very rich orinetal man who had such emptiness in his life he cant handle it. Can BUY anything he wants and multiples of it. Wierd subject. But hell, what do I know? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave328GTB, If you're into rare coins, you probably remember a guy named Trumpeter or Trumpter or something like that. Back about 40 or more years ago, he bought up every prototype "pattern" coin from the U.S. Mint that he could find. As I'm sure you know, those were the prototype coins that were minted to test out a new design, most of which were never actually produced. The prototype pattern coins were sold over the counter at the Mint back in the 1800s. So this Trumpeter (sp) guy bought up all that he could find when nobody else was interested in them. I believe that his collection was sold for about $4 million when he died. Now THAT guy WAS a collector because he bought those coins cheap when nobody else cared about them. I admire that. But when some billionaire guy pops up with his ultra-expensive car collection, I'm not impressed because what else would one expect from a billionaire? A half baked collection of ho-hum cars? It's all about money 99.5% of the time. The other .5% can be attributed to true-blue enthusiasts. As for the GTO owners turning down hugh profit potential if they sold their cars: Go back in time and see what they paid for their cars, and I believe you will find that they paid big money for those cars back in the day when they bought them. Even if they only paid $10,000 for their 250GTO back in 1965, that same $10,000 would have bought them 3 or 4 brand new Chevrolets. So they were actually still paying BIG BUCKS. Show me the 250GTO owner that paid $1200 for his car, and I will be impressed. (Not that winning my approval is anyone's goal, it's just a figure of speech.) | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1949 Registered: 2-2001 |
with the economy in the dump & great cars like the 512TR, Daytona, & 512BB for such cheap prices i dont see how you can go wrong if you hold the car for 10 years minimum | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 953 Registered: 5-2002 |
If your buying an Fcar today dont be doing it as an investment. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1947 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have slippers from the Ritz, Beverly Hills hotel, & Grand Maison CourMayeur  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1946 Registered: 2-2001 |
I suppose you have to define $, cus what is $ to 1 man is change to another guy. I have a nice collection but I am sure that neither STroll nor Sachs would be terribly impressed or intimidated Whereas a kid in college with a Miata would be blown over. Now is s great time to pour some $ in & buy a nice 512TR or Daytona or Boxer that is sure to appreciate slowly, meanwhile you have a hell of a car & the potential to have a lot of fun with it | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 481 Registered: 7-2001 |
I have a towel collection from various hotels.....is that somethin? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1944 Registered: 2-2001 |
I understand what Arlie is saying. There are a few exceptional collectors with Lots of $ and great taste in cars AND have an appreciation of the cars, history, art etc who do have great collections, like Tony Wang, Lawrence Stroll, Peter Sachs, Benny Caiola, and Art Zafiropoulous. Of course then you have Donald Trump who had a Lambo Diablo that he used to collect dust but on the + side he does help out at Cavallino | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 874 Registered: 8-2002 |
He carefully attaches the lure to his line, lifts the rod back over his shoulder and, with a single, fluid motion, he casts.... splunk! Now Arlie can just sit back and slowly reel them all in... again. | ||
| les brun (Labcars)
New member Username: Labcars Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2003 |
Seems to me that we're spending a whole lot of time making assumptions and imputing intent to people whose circumstance maybe different than our own. Who really cares who does what and how? What's more important is why we each do what we do and how we feel about it. If you live your life in relative terms, you'll never be happy or satisfied. There will always be someone with more or better than you. If you live your life in more absolute terms, IMHO you find greater satisfaction. I recall when it was all the money in the world to scrape up enough to buy a used '80 Scirocco. Bought the car and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Years later I got the same feeling when I was able to purchase my first F-car, after lusting after it for many, many years. Was it the car that everyone else wanted, or that had appreciated the most and would evidence to the world that I somehow belonged or had arrived? No, but WHO CARED. It made me happy. Time to quit looking externally. Enjoy what you've got, and live with the choices you've made in life and the fact that its (life) not always fair. There'll always be ssomeone with more, but importantly, there are also those with much less. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 952 Registered: 5-2002 |
Without a doubt money makes all the diference in the World. I know people that buy,lease,drive,sell 100k+ cars like they are of no consequence.They get tired of it or it acts up they get a new one. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 681 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thirty years ago a college friend asked me to help wash and wax a couple of old cars he was going to use in his wedding. He knew I was a car buff and thought I'd enjoy his Grandfather's collection. His Grandfather was B. J. Pollard, and I was about to witness the second largest--and most private--car collection on earth (at that time). B.J. Pollard was a Canadian orphan who was taken in by Robert Oakman, a wealthy Detroit real estate developer, in his early teens. For those of you living in the Detroit area, Oakman Blvd. is named for Robert Oakman. Pollard went on to be an entrepreneur who made his own fortune (with Oakman's help, I'm sure). When WWII broke out old cars were being scrapped for the war effort. Pollard couldn't stand to see that happen, so he started buying up old cars and warehousing them. When I visited his industrial park on Fenkell Ave. it contained several buildings filled with old cars and artifacts. One building was filled with various brass headlights, horns and other brass fittings from early cars. Another building was filled with cars that were stacked VERTICALLY end-to-end and packed so tightly that you couldn't enter the building. The bodies were oiled to prevent rust. The old wooden structure was literally held up by the vehicles it contained. Unfortunately, this building later caught fire and all the cars in it were destroyed. Most of the rest of the buildings were unscathed. Another building contained momorabilia--including the first gas station in the city of Detroit, yes an entire gas station--and who knows what else. Pollard hired people who had originally built the cars in the Teens and Twenties to restore his cars at their own pace. The cars my friend used in his wedding were a Stutz Blackhawk rumble seat roadster and a 1929 Packard. Both were in great, but not overrestored, condition. Another significant car I saw was The Grey Wolf, a very famous Packard race car that was featured in Road & Track several years later. I remember them pointing out that the camshaft was on the outside of the block. I'm not technical and have no idea how that worked, but that's what I recall. I remember steering a 1935 Rolls Royce as my friend and his Grandfather pushed it out of the way so we could work on the other cars. B. J. had literally hundreds, maybe thousands of cars. My friend told me that, if you went to Reno and dropped the word that you had actually been in to see Pollard's cars, William Harrah would hunt you down and grill you about what you had seen because no one really knew what Pollard owned except for B. J. himself. Harrah had a few more cars than Pollard, but B. J. had many vehicles Harrah wanted, and all his money and influence couldn't pry them away. Was B. J. Pollard an eccentric old coot or a hero? Both sides have strong arguments in their favor. I go with the hero theory because, without B. J. Pollard, hundreds of valuable cars that are now dispersed in numerous collections through out the world would not be with us if he hadn't saved them from the crusher. Sure, he lost several dozen cars when that oddly packed building ignited, but he saved hundred more, and for that we should be grateful. | ||
| Adam R (Arymarcz)
New member Username: Arymarcz Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't know if I should post this or not, but here it goes... Rich guy, poor guy we're both comparing collectors. I may be getting off the point here, but, to me, the real affincianatos are those who do the creating. Who knows the pain (and thus can appreciate) of creation more than another creator? In particular, I'm thinking of oil paintings and music, but automobiles aren't much further away. As collectors, we're merely holders of these works for a period of time, as creators, well, that's an entirely 'nother level. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 566 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wm Bob. True. Best Jim | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 738 Registered: 12-2001 |
I disagree. While it is easy for someone with money to acquire valuable things that enthusiasts without money could simply not afford, the greater challenge, and perhaps the true hallmark of the collector, is someone with the foresight to acquire before their value is recognized. I don't think Dean Batchelor had a huge amount of money but he managed to own some important ferraris; likewise, Ed Niles. Also (and Jim G. may know this), Mr. Dusek (forgot his first name) has a formidable collection of old F cars, and it was my impression that he bought them long before they were so valuable. Arlie, i think you have just pointed to the difference between the wealthy acquirer, and someone with the taste and foresight to make these acquisitions long in advance of their recognized value. Nothing against rich people, of course,... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 565 Registered: 10-2002 |
The greatest collection of American art in the world, which now resides in a museam that bears his name was assembled by a friend of my Dad's who loved art, studied art, knew the painters, and assembled these painting long before they became the icons they are today. He never spent more than $5,000 for a painting. There is a fish store in the south of france that is run by the Grandaughter of the man who, as he was a nice guy, allowed poor artists to pay with paintings. Even though he was a nice guy, a collector he was not. One day he had his grandaughter make room in the basement for a new shipment of fish. She carried 14 Van Gogh's to the curb and threw them away... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 949 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arlie: You're wrong. It is the guy with the most money. Every time. They just don't tell you they have the money money. | ||
| Ron Shirley (Easy_rider)
Junior Member Username: Easy_rider Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2002 |
Actually, Arlie I don't know what you mean. You cannot even make a really great stamp collection without money. What caused this rant? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
New member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2003 |
What is a "great collection". To me a great collection would be a 308. Its great because I make it great. Its probibly not your "great collection". Its what makes me happy. Now a rich person could buy a Daytona and a f-40 and a enzo but since he is not like me (totally in love with cars) he can't get as much enjoyment out of cars as I can. We should fell sorry for this rich man. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1102 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie, you always seem to come off very bitter | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member Username: Davem Post Number: 188 Registered: 1-2002 |
Joe Millionaire.... now thats entertainment... | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 428 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arlie, I have been a rare coin dealer for 30 years and here is my take on this subject. It is true that great collections require more financial resources than most people have, but money alone does not make a great collection. Sometimes people come in who spend a lot quickly but their collections are never special. In any collectible, it takes enthusiasm as well as money to build a collection over the long term. People who do not have a passion for it are invariably short term paticipants. The great collections are formed over a long period of time with patience, knowlege and, of course, money. When I read about the GTO owners, I am struck by how many owners have had their cars for many years and keep them even though they could make huge profits. Rich people can have as much passion for a hobby as people of average means. Dave | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2002 |
"but even if i'm the grand exhalted wizard of geniuses, wouldn't i still somehow have to come up with that same amount of money to acquire that Ferrari...?" Well DES, if you were, and had been, a TRUE enthusiast for years, you probably would already own that rare Ferrari because you bought it YEARS ago for $5000 back when nobody except a TRUE enthusiast cared for such things. All the rich guys jump on the bandwagon when things like Ferraris and classic cars are cool and trendy. Anybody can buy a sack of tomatos, but it takes Farmer Brown to know how to grow them, protect them from weeds and cutworms, and harvest them without damage and get them to market. If Joe Millionaire buys a sack of tomatos, does that make him as knowledgeable about tomato farming as Farmer Brown? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 2116 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie... what you're saying makes sense- i agree that, stereotypically, Joe Smith down the block has more of an appreciation for the things he collects and the collection, itself, than Uncle Money Bags, spending his weekend in the south of France while his "collection brokers" are making countless phone calls to dealerships, other collectors, etc... But that applies only to the majority (maybe) as there are some collectors out there who do all their own leg work, even if they have all the money in the world... i, myself, have the largest collection of high bounce balls (that i know of) and it required very little expense- it was done with intelligence... But just how smart must someone be to acquire, let's say, a really rare Ferrari without spending the same amount of money as Uncle Money Bags...? Uncle Money Bags may be a dim wit, but even if i'm the grand exhalted wizard of geniuses, wouldn't i still somehow have to come up with that same amount of money to acquire that Ferrari...? Surely, the seller won't put it up as stakes in a game of Trivial Pursuit... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 751 Registered: 5-2002 |
After all is said and done, isn't it always the guy with the most money who ends up with the best collection of Ferraris or other classic cars, or paintings, or speedboats, or horses, or sculptures, or coins, or stamps, or whatever? When was the last time that any individual ended up with the greatest, finest, collection of ANYTHING by using his intelligence and by NOT having the largest amount of money invested? Sure it's great to see fine collections of automobiles or paintings or horses or whatever, but it's always a given fact that all it really takes is MONEY, not knowledge, to accumulate such a collection. With enough money, you can hire your own experts and have them assemble a collection of anything for you. Call me crazy, but sometimes it is not so impressive to see some giant collection of valuable items, because many times, the collection wasn't built with years of enthusiasm or knowledge, it was built with a fat wallet. I would feel more admiration for Joe Smiths meager car collection down the block, than I would for the Sultan of Kabulistan's collection of Ferraris because Joe ACTUALLY put more effort and enthusiasm into what he has. It's really no BIG DEAL that another multi-millionaire has the best car, painting, horse, or whatever,...know what I mean? |