| Author | Message | ||
| s.c.davis (360c)
New member Username: 360c Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2003 |
I only tracked my 360 3 times last year and I have yet to bleed the brakes. I will probably end up doing much the same amount of track work in 2003. The fluid will be changed later this year as part of routine servicing. The ducting from the 360GT picks up air from behind the radiators and is prewarmed. If you use the Challenge brake ducts, the air is drawn from under the car and is cold. The challenge ducts tend to get damaged if you leave the track and end up in the gravel traps. One of the local race teams runs a 360GT and has moulded the ducts, so the cost is about $1300 US plus fitting. I am told the Michellotto genuine parts are closer to $10k US FWIW. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 246 Registered: 11-2002 |
Regarding mandatory SD2 usage for 360 brake bleeding: while running three Challenge cars in 2000, my team only did this once with SD2, PITA. IMO, only mandatory if you must break an ABS connection, I don't mean just a caliper or master, just the ABS manifold and solenoids. We bled brakes on each car 2 to 8 times a day depending on track time, times two or three cars, and with one exception, never did it with SD2. The gearbox is a different story, must use SD2 with F1 'box. IME, AP550 or AP600 does not store long term in the hydraulic system well, call AP yourself. They suggest draining for storage and flush regularly with usage. This is why I posted previously that bang for the buck, one of the best fluids out there is manufactured by Dow Corning primarily under the Ford Heavy Duty label. It's also marketed by Wilwood, Performance Friction and others as ___570. This relates to the dry boil of 568oF. This is a DOT 3 fluid, don't be scared, this is only a FMVSS/DOT standard, it's the fluid specs you want to see, which I have and will post when I have more time. End of ramble....  | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
New member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2002 |
Sometimes at events there are dealers who sponsor the local event or are just there to help. I suggest contacting those dealers prior to the event to see if they will be there and if they can assist you with the bleeding. I know its a pain, but the 360 is a very complicated piece of equipment and your safety must be Number 1 priority. Also, take that bleeding time to also check the condition of the brake system (pads, rotors, hoses, ducting, etc...). best regards, Jim | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
New member Username: Agracer Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jon, Yes, you're probably right about the comparison, but I wasn't so much trying to compare them as point out that the fluids being used may not be up to snuff, or that there is not enough ducting on may poeples cars to cope with repeaded threshold breaking. I think the new SCCA Formula car sucks, quite frankly. SCCA and SCCA Enterprises are supposed to be separate entities, but they are not. They are making rules to suit Enterprise and Enterprise is making money at SCCA members expense (just ask a FF1600 driver about the crankshaft thing and you'll know what I mean). The SCCA is trying to kill FF2000. Now, they'd never admit it of course, but it's rather obvious to the FF2000 and FF1600 crowd. There are already too many Formula cars and adding another merely dilutes the classes and the quality of racing. The SPEC Class implies that it's supposed to be a drivers series, but we already have that with FF2000 and FF1600. The cars are already very close and besides, who wants a car that you can't change anything on? Non-adj. shocks, and springs, hard as a rock tires...blahhh, good drivers know how to set up there cars to work good under certain conditions. And it's not going to save anyone any money. Racing is expensive. Period. To get to track, buy tires, gas, food, lodging, etc... It all cost the same money. What happens to all the FF2000 drivers when the SCCA finally gets there wish and kills the class? Oh, they are supposed to just eat the car and buy a new one from Enterprise? Sorry for the rant. The SCCA could be so much more, but the poeple running the show are just so short sighted sometimes it kills me. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2001 |
Sean, First off, nice to have a fellow SCCA racer on the board. I race Spec Wreckers (SRF's) in SCCA. Curious to know your opinion on the new SCCA Formula cars. As for brakes, I have plenty of ducting, run Motul 600 or ATE Super Blue, and can guarantee you that my brakes were made for track driving and racing and I still frequently flush them. Yeah it's probably overkill but quite easy to do and beats standing around between sessions with nothing to do. An FC (FF2000) weighs 1000 pounds vs. a 3200-3400 pound F car and probably can cope much better under repeated threshold braking, but I am not sure a street car is a good comparison to a Formula car.  Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 1988 BMW M5 Club Racer 1998 Spec Racer Ford #6 | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 595 Registered: 10-2002 |
One cool point about brake ducts. At LeMans you'd come off the Mulsanne at 223 and have to brake for the Mulsanne cornor down to 25. ( This was before the 2 chicanes were added and the cornor was opened up) Two of the MK-IV's were prepared by Shelby 2 by Holman and Moody. The thermal shock from cool rotors to hot rotors was enormous. At night you could actually see the rotors glow bright red. The H&M brake rotors cracked and the pads failed. Indeed Andretti crashed out after the pads which were put in backwards in the pits grabed. The other H&M car went into the sand after it's brakes faded away. The Shelby cars won and finished 4th. H&M ducted cool air from the nose to the front brakes. Shelby ran the ducts from behind the rad so the air would be slightly heated and would warm the rotors as the cars raced down the Mulsanne. Best Jim | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
New member Username: Agracer Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2003 |
Use AP550 racing brake fluid and rid yourself of all this excessive flushing nonsense (I think it's now AP600). 600=600�F boiling point I used it in my FF2000 car and would bleed out fluid before the season started (purposely bleeding out excess to replace old with new). I would then bleed the brakes before each event weekend, and again a quick check on Saturday night. In 4-years of Formula car racing, I only had ONE problem with a soft pedal and that was because I did not bleed them thoroughly enough after an engine out service. Never had green fade, or other soft pedal problems other than that one. In that 4 year span I did about 20 weekend events ( 2-races and 2-quals per event). That's 80-sessions with one brake problem (don't ask about the time my steering rack came disconnected as my brakes didn't do much for me then!!!) I used BlackHawk pads and I think they have some for certain model Ferrari's. I recall looking at them the other night in a race catalog and I think for the 308/328 they were ~$120 per axle. Just know that you cannot mix AP550 (or AP600) with your existing fluid. You'll have to do a complete flush and refill with the AP fluid and use it forever after that (make sure you tell the next owner if you sell your car). As I recall, it was about $10 per pint, but that was 5-years ago and I'm sure it's gone up from there. You should be able to find it at your local race shops or online. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/bkfld.htm Also, many who have these fade problems in there Ferrari's probably don't have adequate ducting to keep the brakes cool as has been noted. Most Ferrari customers do not track their cars and Ferrari probably does not design the brakes on a "stock" vehicle to be used excessively like you would on a track weekend. I'm sure FNA could sell you an official Ferrari, plastic, 5-cent duct for $300 if you think you need it. ;) | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2002 |
So, with Castrol SRF in there, and the knowledge that the dealer has to help to bleed the brakes, how often do you (s.c.davis) bleed your brakes? How often do you change the brake fluid? Thanks! | ||
| s.c.davis (360c)
New member Username: 360c Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2003 |
When I sold my 355 Challenge and bought a 360 6speed, I expected brake problems on the track. I changed the fluid for Castrol SRF and changed to Pagid race pads before my first track day. I am reasonably happy with the 360's braking performance after these changes. Brake fade isn't a serious issue providing I don't forget that it's a street car and start driving it like my old Challenge, which was overbraked if anything. Incidentally, you HAVE to have an SD2 to bleed the brakes on a 360. I know this because my mechanic (not dealer authorised) tried to do so and he had to go through the humiliation of getting the local authorised dealer to come over with the SD2 and fix it! I am now contemplating fitting the brake ducting from the 360GT which would make brake fade a thing of the past.Big $$ to fix something that isn't a major drama. On a slightly different note, I was amazed to find my standard road 360 laps within a few tenths of my old full race 98 spec 355 Challenge (on same tyres). On some circuits, it's a tenth slower, on others its a tenth faster. The 360 Challenge is miles faster again; but the examples I have driven are quite a handful on the limit. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2002 |
> Another Note: In regard to the 360, You should be bleeding the system > using the SD2 diagnostic computer for the ABS. I don`t think you can > perform a proper bleeding without the computer and you may end up with > a mushy pedal if not done properly. Hmmm... well, given nobody but a dealer has an SD2 right now... I guess this means you need to stop by the dealer on the way to the track each day?? That would basically make my 360 un-trackable. Can anybody who bleeds their 360 brakes regularly give details on how they do it? (On my M3, I have a special adapter for the master cylinder that allows me to pressurize it... then I just open each caliper bleeder in turn. Is there a similar setup for the 360?) Thanks. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2001 |
SRF changed every event. Might want to consider some ducting/deflectors to get some air to your brakes, also. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 440 Registered: 8-2001 |
I know it may seem like overkill to constantly keep bleeding your brakes but at a minimum the fluid should be bled before every event. I am sure there is a huge variety of cars and driving styles but the bottom line is that you want your brakes performing at their best. In most cases you probably don't need to bleed them as frequently as I do but what's cheaper, a few quarts of brake fluid or a new 360 aluminum nose clip? Going between events is really not a good idea in my opinion. I am not as familiar with the older braking systems found on 328's/308's/Mondials/TR's but I would think that they would need frequent brake flushes. On the 348/355/360 Challenge cars Ferrari recommends bleeding the brakes after every session though most of us do it once per day. I have on occasion bleed them at the beginning of the day and at lunch to see if I noticed anything different at the end of the day in terms of a spongy pedal or cleaner fluid. Didn't seem to have much effect. Maybe once per day is overkill but not bleeding the brakes before a new event is not really a good idea in my opinion. Rob: How often did your Challenge teams bleed the brakes? Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
New member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2002 |
Brian, I suggest complete flush before each track event and bleed the calipers after each event day. I`ve had the best luck with the Castrol SRF, I know its expensive but worth not ruining a great track event. Also, to save on the fluid, when bleeding at the end of the day, don`t go crazy. Just bleed out enough for the calipers to freshin it up. the idea is to remove the fluid that was exposed to the high temps of the caliper. Another Note: In regard to the 360, You should be bleeding the system using the SD2 diagnostic computer for the ABS. I don`t think you can perform a proper bleeding without the computer and you may end up with a mushy pedal if not done properly. Best regards, Jim | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 533 Registered: 5-2001 |
I wouldn't track my car without a fresh fluid flush. I have new fluid installed before every track event, not every other. Therefore, it gets flushed several times a year. I just feel like this works best for me and my car. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 241 Registered: 11-2002 |
Brian, search for this subject, I posted a lot of information regarding procedures, schedules, recommendations for fluid, pads, etc. I also outlined how you can easily obtain data on how the system is performing, operating temperatures, etc. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 523 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brian- How often are you tracking the car? My track car (non ferrari though) is 3000lbs (driver & full tank of fuel), and I flush my fluid every 3 months or so, and do about 7 to 9 track events per year. Pads, however, are another story ( I also run the panther plus pads). ATE seems to work well for everyone I know. Maybe it's not the fluids fault, maybe you need more ducting? Castrol SRF is very good, but also VERY expensive. If I were you, I would speak w/ Andie Lin about your particual application and needs, he can be contacted (toll free) at: 877 562 9237. | ||
| Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member Username: Jcaspar1 Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have found great success using the Motive Brake bleeder for bleeding my brakes. Here is their site: http://www.motiveproducts.com/ I'm not sure if they make an adapter for the Ferrari master cylinder. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1971 Registered: 2-2001 |
Your'e lucky you can just get some 360 challenge or 360 GT brakes, I had to search the face of the Earth for big brakes for my 512TR until brembo made me a set. My car was their prototype | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2002 |
BTW, I do have racing pads... Carbotech Panther Plus... they seem to be performing great. I have the spec Ferrari fluid, Shell Helix (or whatever)... its specs are comparable to ATE Super Blue. But I will be replacing it now with Castrol SRF (which has about the best specs you can find). Of course, if I change that fluid after every two track events (which could be every other week at times), that's going to get damned expensive. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 388 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dont go to the track without installing racing brake fluid and pads. I use Pagid Orange pads and ATE Super blue fluid. I change the fluid before each event. I also use slotted rotors. I have used drilled rotors in the past but have found the slotted rotors give just as good gas disipation and are much more resistant to cracking. The drilled rotors will crack between the holes. Ducting your front brakes is also a good idea. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2002 |
Pedal became mushy... total mush. Fortunately, I had just decided to go into cool-down mode, so the first corner without brakes was not too problematic. P.S. I didn't "boil the brake"... I boiled the brake fluid. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1970 Registered: 2-2001 |
i usually change all the cars fluids after eveyr 2 or 3 events. The 512TR weighs 4300# and braking hard from 160mph + puts a serious strain on the brakes. You could ask your mechanic for a fluid with a higher boiling point. I also suggest some porterfield race pads, you can use them on the road as well though they are dustier than road pads, they are cheaper & MUCH better than ferrari pads | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 241 Registered: 8-2002 |
What I do once every couple of months is "refresh" the brake fluid by using a turkey baster and sucking out almost all of the fluid that's in the reservior, and refilling with fresh fluid. It's not really "raw air" you probably have in your lines, it's probably just that the fluid you have has gradually gotten moisture into it. The "turkey baster" approach takes care of that problem. I also make a point of doing that again before a track event. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3555 Registered: 12-2000 |
How did you know they were boiling? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3554 Registered: 12-2000 |
I bleed the race car brakes every day when I'm racing. For the Ferrari I would bleed the brakes before every track weekend and do a good inspection afterwards. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2002 |
Had a nice day at the track today in my 360... but I boiled the brake! For you who take your Ferraris to the track, how often do you need to bleed your brake fluid? How often do you need to change your brake fluid? (These Ferrari brakes seem far more sensitive than my M3 brakes; of course, I am going a lot faster.) |