| Author | Message | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2003 |
I get what you're trying to say Kevin. I read a UK mag called Cars and Car Conversions, and the Dec '02 issue featured the ProDrive 550 GTS racers. George Howard-Chappell said that the first thing they did was go to a London Ferrari dealership and purchased two used 550s and proceeded from there! Also, they had problems from the FIA as well with respect to their X-Trac gearbox (probably after they smoked the competition at the FIA GT championships in 2001). I believe they sold their FIA GT cars to BMS Scuderia Italia, but they've built a new car for ACO events. Also, ProDrive isn't running in all of the ALMS events, hence their absence at the race at DC. Maybe they were licking their wounds after coming so close to winning the GTS class at Le Mans two months earlier (their car caught fire). Supposedly Ferrari is thinking of selling a customer race version of the 575M (ala 360 GT) for use in the FIA GT and ACO-based championships. As for GT class, I'm hoping that the Risi, the FoW and the JMB teams can bring the challenge to the Porsches, I've heard more Ferrari teams are also coming in. FoW's Grand-Am GT title is great, but everyone knows that the ALMS is where the real glory is. | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member Username: Challenge Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2002 |
Kiyoharu, I am aware of what classes each marque races. I never mentioned any classes. My only point was the number of P-cars involved in ALMS compared to the number of F-cars. The reason is money. Porsche gets involved in sponsorship and palm-pressing with regards to the rulemaking ("crybabies" as you mentioned) whereas Ferrari leaves it to privateers to go purchase two (2) 550 road cars so they may be cut up to build one race car. I was at the DC race in July 2002 (halfway through the ALMS season) and there were countless GT3R's, but only one Ferrari. That Ferrari was the Rafanelli Olive Garden 550 GT. I don't think Prodrive was ready for the season by this point. And Ferrari of Washington got the first 360GT (which is kicking ass) but they weren't racing it in GT yet. Sportcar racing rules change faster than US tax code... | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2003 |
First, some corrections to the statements made by Kevin Butler. The Porsche GT3RS' race in the GT class in Le Mans and also it's American spinoff, ALMS (where the main opposition would be the JMB and Risi 360 GTs). The 550 Maranello campaigned by the ProDrive and Olive Garden Rafanelli teams are in the GTS class (where it would run against the Corvettes, Saleens and Vipers). Unfortunately even if you went to Michelotto and ask them to build a 333SP for you, your car would sadly be uncompetitive due to it's aging design. I don't know if any racing series in this world that has a 333SP car still racing competitively. The actual problem with sports car racing is that there's no rules stability, as noted by Luca di Montezemelo during the announcement that Ferrari SpA will reenter sports car racing through it's Maserati brand, right after the launch of the Maserati Coupe/Spyder/Trofeo racer programme. This is compounded by the fact that the most famous sports car race in the world (Le Mans) is not under the jurisdiction of the FIA, and the FIA has retaliated by making their own GT race series (which in turn was stolen from the BPR GT series) and that the Spa 24 Hour race would be their flagship race. The rules for GT/GTS racers in both FIA and ACO sanctioned races are also not compatible. For example, FIA allows the F1 transmission but doesn't allow carbon brakes, and has rules that effectively bar factory teams from entering (thus the multitude of Porsche teams such as Freisinger, Racers Group, AJR, while Ferrari has only JMB, ProDrive but soon, Maranello Concessionaires VeloQX from UK). ACO and ALMS meanwhile outlaws the F1 transmission but allows carbon brakes and full-factory teams, though the GT/GTS class is mostly factory-backed only, and not full-fledged works teams. Right now, BretM is somewhat correct, ACO and FIA has somehow decided to end the sports prototype class and will go back to the 'supercar'-type class as used back in 1994-1998. That was why the McLaren F1 GTR and the various Porsches (TWR, Dauer and Porsche themselves) were able to get overall wins at Le Mans, the rules were in favor of supercars and not in favor of sports prototypes). The expected field will probably include race versions of the Porsche Carrera GT, the Maserati supercar based on the Enzo and the McLaren Mercedes SLR. Several other manufacturers may also join in. I just hope that Porsche will not be crybabys like when they complained to ACO after the BMW M3 GTR (with a V8 engine from the 5-series) whipped their asses, and asked ACO to apply rules to the BMWs and effectively drove them out of the series. Also, the smaller GT class will hopefully allow more competition, everyone knows that it's basically a one-make race series for the P-cars up until the M3 GTR and JMB's Michelotto N-GT 360 Modena kicked their butts in 2001. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3173 Registered: 2-2001 |
To try and end the Audi dominance (and arguably increase the Pcar dominance) ALMS is revamping their car lineups. The SPRs are no longer and are replaced by as of now is a Pcar powered car and a Maserati powered car. So, theoretically Ferrari is already going out a little with the Maserati name. An Enzo entered in GT class would put the 911s to shame IMO. A more heavily modified one in the GTS would also be very competitive, but that would differ even more from the street car. If prodrive can make a 550 the fastest in its class, picture what they could do to an Enzo. The 550 is considered by many to be a pig on the track, yet they made it faster than everything else in the GTS class. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2002 |
They would have to be massively different, as it would be a stupid mistake for the Ferrari/Maserati company to be this misleading and naive with their customers. Maserati also was positioned to be the high class touring car supplier not the racing marque by FIAT, so this would be an about face. Also I disagree with Ferrari being scared of loosing, they lost for 21 years and kept coming back to the ring. It simply is a fact that they can only concentrate on one thing at a time, and sportscars is no where near as important as F1. This is why the 333SP was not made by the factory, but sub'd out ... and Ferrari did not make the 550 racecar either - Prodrive did. Thus I do not believe this will happen. More likely that a race team/developer like Prodrive will race prepare some rich persons Enzo and go racing ... but then it would loose as it would surely be up against full on Le Mans type racecars like the Audi (?, or is there some sort of production car class ... does 399 cars make it a production car?). Thus again the Ferrari supercar Enzo is destined to be a poser road car, like the F50, as it would get whipped by REAL racecars on the track. Sportscars have moved on a long way since the F40 ... and we have to remember that there was no class for the F40 when it came out ... did not race (I believe) for around 9 years, and it was still competitive (if not reliable). You cannot make a road car that will win Le Mans anymore, just not possible. All the rest of the manufacturers have woken up since the McLarens won ... it just will not happen again. If the Enzo can then well, awesome, but I would not bet $50 on it ever taking to a race track to be COMPLETELY embarrassed by a Panos or GM racecar. Pete ps: Look at the latest Bentley built for Le Mans, would LAP the Enzo in a 20 lap race ... | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member Username: Challenge Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ferrari (although I love'em) is scared to death of losing races. This is proven by their whole "life revolves around F1" mindset and reluctance to get into any other kind of racing wholeheartedly. ALMS is one example; how many 911GT3's were there compared to 550GT's in 2002? Where is the modern-day 333SP? (Yes, I know if you have $1M you can still get one built). Ferrari's answer: let the Maserati "Enzo" go out there on that limb. It will most likey kick __, but ANY possibility that an unproven Ferrari Enzo would lose is too much risk for F SpA to take. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1027 Registered: 3-2001 |
Anybody find 399 kind of a strange production number? Why not just make one more and call it an even 400? Guess they wanted to say they produced LESS than 400 Enzo's at $699,999.99 each???? These Marketing guys are something else! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3168 Registered: 2-2001 |
One thing to keep in mind as Ferrari is desperately trying to hold onto its mystique, albeit artificially with "who can buy" and "limited" numbers produced. What happens if they only turn out 150 Maserati Enzos? Which becomes the more valuable collector car down the road? Since that's all we care about in Maranello lately how do we deal with this potential problem. Make 1000 Maserati Enzos?... what if there's only demand for 100. I'm not such a big fan of Ferrari's antics and gyrations, which seem to increase exponentially every year since the old man took the grand prix to the stars. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2002 |
The price may be less than the Enzo, but they'll probably make more profit as the first 349 Enzo's had to cover the huge development costs. Ferrari made loads of profit on the extra 50 Enzo's they produce. The development costs of this Maserati will be a fraction of the Enzo so they can afford to cut the price. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2003 |
The Maserati will not be a virtual clone of the Enzo. For one thing, the tires will be Pirellis as Pirelli signed a deal with Maserati to be the exclusive tire provider for all of Maseratis line of cars. Also, the engine will be a better version of the 6 liter V12, and it might even be a V8 to follow the Maserati tradition. There was an artist's rendering of the car with the same blue and white colors used by the Maserati Trofeo racer in an issue of Autosport magazine. It does look a bit like the Enzo, minus the F1-style nose, but it is just an artist's rendition. The car will be released in an even more limited edition number, probably just enough to pass homologation. Rumors say that the total might just be 100 cars or so. As for Paganis, I'm not too big on them. I am big on B. Engineering's Edonis though. Too bad they only made 21 of those cars. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 469 Registered: 10-2002 |
Any word on where they'd be built? Same production street as the Enzo or only at the Maser factory? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 597 Registered: 10-2002 |
Martin 220m is alot for a badge.  Best Jim | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3846 Registered: 5-2001 |
At $440,000 an expensive replicar. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 252 Registered: 11-2001 |
I don't believe it. The price alone should trigger the hoax detector. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1128 Registered: 8-2001 |
As an "old" guy of 36, I like the way it looks. Yes, I'm aware that the Paganis are built in very limited numbers and practically impossible to get. I'm just noting an alternative to a "rebadged" Enzo. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2392 Registered: 6-2001 |
I have a hard time believing that FErrari will go through with this. It sounds as though it would essentially be the same thing as an Enzo. These cars are expensive to build. how could they cut the price by over 1/3rd? Also it would make the enzo not as exclusive. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 582 Registered: 8-2001 |
Willis, its almost impossible to get a Pagani at this point- they're only importing soo many, and they are already oversold. Also, the looks are really subjective, I love them, but its pretty radical- chances are you're older when you have the kind of money necessary to spend on the car, and the styling can be a little to exciting for the average 55+ year old. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 711 Registered: 3-2002 |
aside from the obvious displeasure of real enzo owners, i think this may not be such a bad idea since they are doing it to further the racing profile of maserati, and therefore by inference for ferrari. i wouldn't worry about dilution since they produced far more f40's and it didn't seem to affect their appeal, largely due to the racing heritage. my guess is they will change the road car sufficiently so that the uninformed won't equate the 2 cars. think of it this way, it might just be the first maserati you yearn to own....... | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 8-2001 |
Why not just get a Pagani? It'll be cheaper and more unique. It's probably a pain to service due to the lack of US dealer network, but the M-B powerplant should be very reliable. | ||
| David Prall (Davidpra)
Junior Member Username: Davidpra Post Number: 139 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yes, this should be interesting... Ferrari's primary cachet has always been "exclusivity". Surely they are all too aware that any dilution of the Ferrari mystique will put them on the trend towards 'ordinary'. It would surprise me if that is their intent --- but, one can never overlook the temptation of GREED. If history has taught us anything, it has demonstrated that almost everyone can be tempted to sell out in the name of the almighty dollar (lira). | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 141 Registered: 11-2002 |
If I'd just taken delivery of an Enzo I'd be pretty pissed off at this news. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 468 Registered: 10-2002 |
Will people replace the trident with the horsey? I bet that's gonna happen, just like with the DINO badges. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 687 Registered: 2-2002 |
Okay, so now Maserati is "Mercury" and Ferrari is "Ford". Soon we'll see Enzos with vinyl roofs and wide white walls sold as 6000 GTs. Reading between the lines this could be a disaster if it's not handled well. I hear this is being done to allow Maserati to race in ALMS, LeMans, etc., which is a good thing. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 709 Registered: 3-2002 |
http://www.italiaspeed.com/news_2002_18.html#maserati6000gt | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2002 |
Very interesting. Where did you see this? | ||
| Ming Cheng (Onlinesys)
Junior Member Username: Onlinesys Post Number: 187 Registered: 5-2002 |
That is a great idea to boost the brand and the sales of the car. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 706 Registered: 3-2002 |
reading further on the website highlighted in another thread, it seems maserati will be making an enzo in case you weren't on the first list....: Maserati are to build a supercar based on Ferrari's new F1-technology derived Enzo. It is believed that the project, to be known as the 6000GT, is significantly advanced and should be launched by the end of next year. The car will be a virtual clone of the Enzo, being expected to make use of the 660 bhp 6.0-litre V12 engine and F1-style gearbox. The project's schedule is being pushed by Maserati's tight schedule of using the 6000GT to enter sportscar racing in 2004. Next year Maserati will begin race development testing with an Enzo chassis, while the first prototype 6000GT will hit the tracks later in the year. The race project is around six months down the line, and will move into a brand new purpose-built unit on the Modena site before Christmas. Maserati will field a factory team, while selling customer examples. The 6000GT will probably see a production run around the same as the Enzo's 399 units. With the Enzo's original production run being extended from 349 to 399 cars to try to satisfy demand, it is expected that the large number of potential customers who have not been catered for will be channelled towards the Maserati. The 6000GT will be a much more polished and luxurious car than the no-compromise Enzo, and will be targeted at the US to assist in raising Maserati's profile as the marque revises upwards its sales targets for North America. Price is expected to possibly be around �400,000 compared to the Enzo's �660,000. |