| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Jackett (Brian_jackett)
New member Username: Brian_jackett Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2002 |
Yes they are: Go/ Stop/ Try another gear | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 525 Registered: 4-2002 |
Are the brake, clutch, and accelerator pedals labelled in England? ;-) | ||
| Brian Jackett (Brian_jackett)
New member Username: Brian_jackett Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2002 |
Yes, my 355 does have a switch to turn ABS off. Obviously you americans cannot be trusted to have this on your cars. (Smilie).I am from England. Funny the different specs for diff countries. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mitch wrote: >Off a race trace ABS is good. On the track it is quite another thing. When you are on a race track and braking hard, and ABS kicks in; while you can steer the car, the car will not turn in as well as when the tires are on the incipitant edge of skidding. You end up missing you apex and can't apply full throttle until later than if you didn't have ABS. _________ Like Brian, I need to disagree. Here's a key point, everyone -- if you don't like ABS, don't use it. A really good driver CAN achieve shorter braking distances by using threshold braking -- he/she holds the brakes at incipient lock-up. If you never lock up the brakes, you never trigger ABS. So for track use, just don't brake so hard that you lock up your wheels. If you do hit them hard enough to lock up, then having ABS just saved you from locking up! So, that's where I disagree with Mitch - a theoretical perfect driver should never have hit the point where the ABS would have kicked in; for us less than perfect drivers, the ABS helps (and I might miss my apex by fewer feet than if I had locked up my wheels and slid). >I find that I have to sacrifice deceleration capabilities to stay just out of ABS on the track so that turn in is predictable. In addition, ABS disrupts the grip at the tire contact patch as weight is shifted on and off the tire while the ABS cycles. ____________ Again, I disagree (with Mitch, and agree with Brian) -- as noted above, no sacrifice is needed; if the ABS system doesn't sense *actual* lock-up, it never kicks-in; so where's the sacrifice? As for disrupting weight transfer, remember that an advanced ABS system will release braking only on the wheel that's locked, and will cycle hundreds of times a second. If someone can actually sense a difference in weight transfer at ONE corner, measured in milliseconds, call me impressed. Would a locked-up wheel with no weight transfer be better? I think not, as the other wheels would still be trying to rotate the car, while the locked wheel would be sliding forward - which has to be worse, no? >I wish there was a switch that would turn it off for track use. Most cars have a fuse or relay for the ABS system that can be defeated pretty readily; though, again, I don't understand why this would be beneficial. Remember, Formula One actually had to BAN ABS; they thought it helped the driver too much. vty, --Dennis | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have to agree with Brian, I have read that many touring car race teams run with ABS and they find that they can go deeper and later into the corner with ABS ... plus it saves accidentally damaging a tyre and requiring a slow pitstop to change. Also Brian is right regarding how to brake. It is all about smoothness and not upsetting chassis balance (read Jackie Stewarts excellent book on performance driving ... cannot remember the actual name, but it is really, really interesting), you should not just jump on the brake pedal, but apply the brakes with maximum feel to obtain the best lap time. Many people think that the last of the late brakers will have the best lap time. That is not true as you are compromising your line and cornering and exciting speed. In most corners the speed through the corner and out of the corner is the lap time maker ... this can cause you to brake a little bit earlier than actually possible. Also slamming on your brakes will compress your front suspension on to the bump stops, thus making your suspension solid ... thus the car won't turn in. Yes it is great to know you can go that little bit deeper, but leave that for that Villeneuve type pass on the last lap ... not in fooling yourself that you are optimising your lap time, or getting the best out of your MECHANICAL brakes by jumping on them like Mike Tyson. A brake system is not a switch it is hydraulics and friction, and force balancing, etc. Pete | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 189 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have to disagree with you, Mitch. First, ABS isn't computing things based on the friction coefficients of standard pads or anything else. ABS is a very straight-forward system... if a wheel stops turning suddenly (locks), then the ABS just releases some of the brake pressure to get it moving again. You can change the pads, the rotors, the brake lines, the tire compound, the tire sizes... whatever... the ABS will still work just fine. It kicks in when the wheel stops turning. (Now the same is NOT true of traction control! Very different beast!) Thus, if you are "getting into ABS", then with ABS off you would have locked up that wheel! In that case you would have lost far more traction than what the ABS split-second modulation lost for you. Note in particular, that the ABS can do something that you, no matter how good you are, cannot do: it can release brake pressure on just one wheel. Thus, it is NOT a disadvantage... it is in fact an advantage. Now it is TRUE that on track, braking is not just a simple matter of mashing the pedal and letting ABS do its thing... all that mechanical modulation is going to disturb a smooth and precise turn-in to the apex... thus, you will still want to threshold brake properly, getting as close to lock-up as possible without getting there. But now the penalty for getting there (locking up a wheel) is just a bit of ABS modulation and missing your apex by a foot... without ABS, you'd be missing the apex by even more AND you'd lose a lot more deceleration, together making track-out a real challenge (if you were anywhere near the limit). Thus, even on the track, ABS is a good thing to have... but just lazily mashing the pedal and letting ABS kick in is NOT a good thing. You must still learn to threshold brake properly! And just to be clear, none of this discussion of ABS should be confused with ASR or ASC or DSC or any of the other three-letter acronyms for traction control systems. Traction control systems are indeed doing math... they are indeed affected by tire diameters and such... they can be too conservative as they aren't basing their decisions on something clear like wheel lock-up... and they should indeed be turned off at the track. Traction control is a nightmare at the track! | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 353 Registered: 4-2002 |
Does ABS decelerate faster? Does ABS stop faster? These are two different questions! Off a race trace ABS is good. On the track it is quite another thing. When you are on a race track and braking hard, and ABS kicks in; while you can steer the car, the car will not turn in as well as when the tires are on the incipitant edge of skidding. You end up missing you apex and can't apply full throttle until later than if you didn't have ABS. When you change the brake pads, add steel braided brake lines, and/or change the tire traction (i.e. slicks) the ABS system becomes completely confused. It is reacting to the original pad coefficiet of friction and the original tire/wheel combination of grip and rotational inertia. Thus, once you start modifying the car for more track use, ABS quickly becomes a bigger detriment than nothing at all. I find that I have to sacrifice deceleration capabilities to stay just out of ABS on the track so that turn in is predictable. In addition, ABS disrupts the grip at the tire contact patch as weight is shifted on and off the tire while the ABS cycles. I wish there was a switch that would turn it off for track use. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2490 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mercedes has a similar system that senses a panic and applies the brakes harder. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anthony,
That comment is not correct. Stopping distances are only shorter if the non-ABS equiped car locks a wheel. If they do not they will stop just as well. As we all know a locked wheel does not slow the car down. The idea of ABS is to stop this happening. An unfortunate human by-product of ABS technology is that many BELIEVE that their car will actually stop in a shorter distance ALWAYS ... and thus are over confident and follow too closely, etc. Bullshit you say, well I had a MD I worked for who bought a brand new Saab and hit somebody on the way home from work ... and his first comment was that I thought I would have stopped, you know with this ABS, etc. Thus he did not understand that ABS only helps in marginal conditions (such as a wet slippery road, gravel under one wheel, etc., and for driver PANIC) but makes no difference if the wheel was not going to lock anyway. FIAT BTW have introduced a system that will actually help the driver stop in an emergency in the shortest possible time by detecting a PANIC and actually applying the brakes harder than the driver did ... and working with the ABS will reduce braking distances. Yes ABS is a good idea as 99% of drivers PANIC and thus slam the brakes on and go into a trance and their brain turns off. Motor racing teaches a driver to keep thinking in these situations and can be a major safety device ... Pete | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2487 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think in an emergency, having ABS will help any driver, regardless of ability. If something pops out in front of you, it is easier to just hit the pedal as hard as you can than try to modulate it. The odds are very slim, if not absent, that you can bring a car without ABS to a stop in a shorter distance than an identcial car with ABS, even if you are an expert. ABS saved my ass one time, i just jammed the pedal and stopped one inch, yes one inch (looked like this from the driver seat at least), from someones bumper. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2003 |
In defense of Brian Jackett, one must add that European 355s do have ABS defeat switches, methinks. Dunno where Brian is writing from, though. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2002 |
The F355 does not let you disable ABS. The 360 only allows disabliing the traction control/stability control, not ABS. IME, disconnecting the ABS, as the brake system is not designed for continual non-ABS operation, upsets the brake balance. Without ABS, the bias is too much rear on threshold braking in dry conditions, especially with race tires. Ferrari upgraded the ABS ECU for F355 Challenge competitors in 1998 because of the increase weight transfer of the tires and increased available brake torque of the 14 inch Brembo brakes. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 188 Registered: 3-2002 |
The only reason you'd want to switch the ABS off at the track would be if you want to have the extra fun/challenge of threshold braking manually (modulating the brakes via the brake pedal to keep the wheels on the verge of locking up, but not locked up). It is a challenge and it can be fun... but since the ABS system will do it better than the driver, the car will be slower with ABS off. And since the braking will be less consistent, the driver will have to drive more conservatively or more dangerously. Typically, both are true at the same time. Unless you are practicing for your regular vehicle that doesn't have ABS, or you're just curious, I would NOT recommend turning off ABS at the track. | ||
| Brian Jackett (Brian_jackett)
New member Username: Brian_jackett Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2002 |
Just out of interest and the fact that the 355 allows you to switch it off (not sure if 360 does). Why is it better to not use abs while on a track regards Brian | ||
| Harry (Harry)
New member Username: Harry Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2002 |
ABS is the abbreviation of the german expression "Anti-Blockier-System" (english translation is Anti-Lock-Brake). The system was originally developed by Bosch and Mercedes and ABS just got a common expression all over the world. Regards Harry | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2002 |
I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Kennedy. I could not have said it better! ABS compensates for the existing conditions so much better than your (or anyone's) foot and brain can. There are better and worse designs (three vs. four channel Honda's come to mind), but IMO, all are superior to non-ABS. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1266 Registered: 2-2001 |
I always thought ABS = AntiLock Braking System Ernesto | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stopping distances with ABS are shorter than without. Most new cars have it. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 187 Registered: 3-2002 |
One clarification... in all scientific tests that I am aware of, using professional racers and test drivers, modern ABS consistently out-brakes non-ABS, with only few exceptions. Yes, the professional drivers *best* stop might be a foot or two shorter, but the average stop in repeated trials with ABS is shorter than without. For enthusiasts, ABS will win by an even larger margin. And in real life, where you don't have the opportunity to repeat the same experiment over and over in the same conditions, ABS will win by an even larger margin. Note that locking up the tires will NOT stop faster, even in a straight line... the coefficient of friction of a skidding tire is notably less than one that's not. The exceptions? Braking on loose material like gravel or snow, where locking up the tires results in the loose material mounding up in front of the tire and the tires effectively digging a trench. In that case, locking up the tires will stop you faster; and in that case you are better off without ABS. You want ABS. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 828 Registered: 12-2001 |
Martin, anytime I spin in a car - I don't think about about car control - I think of how much my new relationship with the tire wall is going to cost me | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1016 Registered: 11-2002 |
Agree with the others it's a good thing. ABS = Automatic Braking System The big advantage for most people is it prevents wheel lock and thus skidding out of control, especially on uneven or wet/damp pavement. The other less known advantage is the ability to brake while cornering without inducing skid or loss of control. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3887 Registered: 5-2001 |
So NIka, you don't have car control when you spun and head backwards into the tire wall?  | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Junior Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 140 Registered: 9-2002 |
Nika is spot on the money. Quite simply, I you are a very good and experienced driver, then ABS can be a handicap. However for Joe Normal it is a great thing and has helped save many accidents. It has often been said that 'Aside to questioning a man's virility, the worst thing you can do is question his driving". All men think that they are God's gift to driving and in my experience I have met very few 'good drivers'. With that information, I recomend both ABS and Stability/Traction Control to the non-enthusiast driver as they are likely not be inclined to develop the skills required to drive in a spirited fashion safely without these aids. | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 457 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm going to take a stab at this.. When you have ABS and you slam on the brakes, the brakes will pulsate, (grab, let go, grab, let go)in a high rate of speed. This will prevent you brakes from locking up which causes skid.. On the track you don't want to use ABS. It is excellent for bad conditions like snow and rain. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 524 Registered: 4-2002 |
ABS prevents wheel lock up during extreme braking. If you lock your front wheels, you cannot steer the car. ABS prevents this. It also prevents rear wheel lock up which will cause the rear of car to come around. There are sensors on the wheels that supply a signal indicative of wheel rotation. Signals are compared. If there is too much difference, the system takes over and literally pumps the brakes to stop you and maintain control. Once ABS takes over, you should not pump brakes yourself. Just hold pedal down. Are you at a disadvantage? ABS equipped cars stop in shorter distances than cars with ordinary systems in the hands of ordinary drivers. In my opinion, you are at a disadvantage when it snows or in emergency situations if you do not have it. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 827 Registered: 12-2001 |
Is ABS a GOOD thing? I think the answer is yes - - - it is quite the marvel of technology if you look at what it actually does - - - the operator of a vehicle can virtually put two feet on the brake pedal and push as hard as they want to and the ABS will not allow the wheels to lock up - - - and the operator can still maintain all directional control to steer around whatever stimulated the desire for rapid deceleration. The aim here with this technology is to remove the necessity of the operator to develop brake modulating skills. The problem can be that a lot of vehicle operators when faced with an emergency such as a crash in front of them they fixate on the object and will drive into the crash any way - - - so being able to steer around the object may not be of issue with this in mind the other draw back is that a vehicles stopping distance using ABS is longer than a vehicle with the wheels locked up and sliding. The other slight problem is that if the vehicle somehow on a corner spins and is facing backwards at speed the ABS systems have no way to sense vehicle direction only that the vehicle is moving and the wheels are turning or not so a vehicle going backward at speed is also incapable of locking the brakes which would be most likely desirable rather than trying to control the vehicle at speed backwards. Now chances the average street car will never get into this scenario but you never know ? On a race track , with a well developed driver, the driver is capable of driving the car with more finesse and can out brake a car relying on the ABS. Having said all this -- - - there are both good and bad points to ABS just like any technology - - if you don't have the skill to utilize the technology it can be a waste - - if the vehicle comes with ABS - - GREAT - - if it doesn't come as standard equipment - - spend the money on good defensive driving training that will teach you to stay out of situations where ABS would be an asset. If you have ABS then take the defensive driving and skid school training anyway - - -mastering control over equipment that you are operating will always be safer | ||
| Brian Saligman (Brisalig)
Junior Member Username: Brisalig Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2002 |
Does a car really need ABS? What exactly does it do? Do most cars today have it? Would I be at a disatvantage if I did not have it? lots of questions!! Regards, Brian |