| Author |
Message |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1866
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
I know my 1982 BB512i, s/n:42213 made in June 1982 came with a small tools kit/roll in a tan leather pouch along with a jack bag. The tools in the small tools kit/roll and the jack kit match the list and drawings in my manual, the parts list on the Ferrari Owner's site as well as the blue binder Ferrari parts book. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Thanks Frank,
confirms what I was saying. Many things are not chiseled in stone or as simplistic as some would want them to be. |
Frank R. Masiarz (Fmasiarz)
New member
Username: Fmasiarz
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:30 pm: | |
Hi.....
Here is a summary of the same discussion among the members of the Boxer database:
For the 1977 Boxer BB512 tool kit complement, the car should have two kits:
1) A black leather two-level briefcase/toolbox (yellow Cavallino Rampante on one side/red felt inside) which contains tools/wrenches and spare lamps, spark plugs and fuses; secured by leather straps at the right front wheel well
2) A leather/vinyl pouch/jack roll for the trunk, which contains the jack and handle, hub [knock-off] wrench and hammer, along with a roadside hazard reflector, two belts and a spark plug socket wrench; found under the spare tire
For a BB365 of late 1975 production, the tool kit complement was the same, with one subtle exception: the yellow Cavallino Rampante appears on both outsides.
From Lee Sanders [paraphrase]:
The contents of the jack roll did change in the 40000 serial number series of BB512is. The change: addition of a round plastic box to hold spare light bulbs and fuses. Otherwise, the tool kit complement was the same as for the BB512s. Somewhere near the end of the run (around S/N 49000), there were cars sent out of the factory without the toolbox, with only a jack roll. This change was very likely due to the fact that, at the time, the toolbox was out of production. And these "jack roll only" cars still had the leather straps for the absent toolbox at the wheel well.
When dealing with older Ferraris, keep in mind that there was limited attention to detail in some cases. In addition to the differences in tool kit complement, the color of the factory scissors jacks varied as well; some were yellow and some were blue.
From Tom Shilaos [paraphrase]:
On my 1983 Boxer, the tool roll contains extra lights, belts, a socket wrench for removal of the spark plugs, two screwdrivers and a hammer/wrench for removal of the hub nuts.
From Don Bartz [paraphrase]:
On my late 1984 Boxer, the tool kit is a vinyl pouch almost identical to that of my 1979 308, with the exception of the BB512-specific tools. This vinyl pouch fits inside a leather (same color as the interior) pouch with a zipper and the Cavallino Rampante is embossed on it. It is kept behind the passenger seat now. The jack, spare lights, spare belts, spark plug wrench, et cetera, all fit in a long vinyl pouch with two leather straps and a leather carrying handle. This "tool roll" fits under the spare tire.
From Frank Masiarz:
Needless to say, a concours judge should be aware of these differences and know which tool complement should be present with any car, in case it appears in a show for points. Given the age of these cars and possible/probable multiple ownership, any given car may not have all of the tools with which it left the factory. Note that the official Ferrari parts catalog for the 1982 BB512i indicates the presence of a tool roll and not a toolbox; there may also be differences according to serial number in any given year too. For example, a careful comparison of the picture in Ferrari publication 159/78 (spare parts catalog) and the toolbox in my 1977 BB512 indicates a difference in the construction of the toolboxes.
What a nightmare for concours judges !!!
Frank R. Masiarz��BB512 - 23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource
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Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member
Username: Coachi
Post Number: 214
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:09 am: | |
My Boxer a 1983 production that was imported to the US in Jan 84 definitely came with a tool roll. brown, witha pouch that matched the interior of the car...tan. Serial No. 48729 |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 510
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:26 pm: | |
My supposedly "original" '83 BBi came with a roll tool kit. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 412
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 7:58 pm: | |
My Boxer (1983 BBi #44941) came with a roll tool kit. The original owner's manual describes a roll tool kit. The parts book reveals a roll tool kit.
My C4 (1972) came with a brief case. The owner's manual describes a brief case. The parts manual reveals a brief case.
Jim S. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 6:02 pm: | |
Frank,
Sounds like you want to show it?
Check with the FCA concourso guys, they can tell you what may have come with the car |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 6:00 pm: | |
Frank, writing a book on conversions and documenting tool kits somehow seems different to me.
Beyond that, I have provided you with a first hand eyewitness account of a guy that was there working on them in 76-77-78-79-80-81-82-83-84----93-2003...daily in person.
Now, I'm not real sure what this is all about, but if you just absolutely positively don't want a briefcase in your car then by all means don't put one in it. You've built your case (of course I haven't seen any signed & notarized sworn statements...yet) and convinced yourself so go with it.
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Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2559
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
JRV,
"What Ferrari has published and what they have delivered was very often different. "
So true.
That still is the common practice today. The OM's and supporting doc's are printed months in advance. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2558
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
Do you know why the S/N's have such a huge gap? I have seen a 80 S/N 38XXX. They did not make many of these cars. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1847
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
June 1982. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2557
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
When was yours produced? |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2556
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
Yes. You are correct. It was titled in 82 so it has been called an 82. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
So in Ferrarispeak your BB512i is a 1981 model as that is the year it was produced. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2555
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:43 pm: | |
Nov 81 |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:42 pm: | |
Matt, what month was your car made ? |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2554
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:38 pm: | |
40141 |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1844
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:34 pm: | |
Matt, mine in s/n:42213. What is yours ? |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 2543
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:28 pm: | |
(ducking)
Mine has a roll
(ducking)
It's a 82
(ducking) |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1843
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
JRV, When did I allege that conversion shops were stuffing cars with briefcase kits to fool historians ? Regardless of the exact percentage of Boxers Fritz converted, he is the one who wrote the book of gray market conversions for the DOT/EPA, literaly . When he asked the DOT/EPA in the 1970s what needed to be done to make a Boxer U.S. legal, the DOT/EPA told him they didn't know. He worked out a deal with the DOT/EPA to write the book on how to convert the car to meet U.S. requirements. Once complete, he turned it over to the DOT/EPA and it became the official rule book. That is documented history. So, that being the case I would certainly consider him an expert on Boxers. Now, from what I know of Ferrari it is certainly possible that when Tony or Gesipie couldn't find a tool roll to put in a BB512i, that they could have and would have thrown a briefcase kit in and sent it on out the door. That may have happened and would explain why some folks swear their BB512i came with those type kits. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
>>JRV, according to ���� Fritz at Amerispec who converted most of the Boxers in the US,<<
Bold Claim...which he can't back up I'm afraid. He did quite a few...but far far from most.
And unless he's seen every darn car come off the boat..well..then it's just more talking!!
Houston was a BIG hub for conversions with several very large Gray Market Conversion Shops.
And I seriously doubt they were stuffing their own briefcases in the cars to fool historians.
|
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1842
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
JRV, according to •••• Fritz at Amerispec who converted most of the Boxers in the US, ALL the BB512is came with a tool roll with a leather pouch that matched the cars interior. His guessed that a lot of the tool roll kits were replaced with the briefcase kits over the years because people liked them better or when someone bought a car that was missing the tool roll they were sold a briefcase type kit in error. I know the manual in my June 1982 built BB512i shows a picture of a tool roll kit in the section on tool and jack kits. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1035
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
Hi Guys, Here's what I know for a fact. What Ferrari has published and what they have delivered was very often different.
I do know what I've seen in person at the time with my own 4 eyes. I can also state emphaticaly that the number of times I've heard a parts man say, "butt that's what the book says" even in the face of differing reality is countless, so the reply was..I'll take the wrong part as long as it matches whats on the car, thank you.
What was in the briefcases?..I don't know, never did inventory as they weren't mine to play with. On very very late cars I've seen the tool rolls, black, tan, red, at the time I thought someone swiped their briefcase, with this thread I gather at some very late point they switched over.
If I was judging a concurs, personally I would deduct points on any car 83 (at least mid to late) or earlier if the briefcase was missing. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1841
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
Both the spare parts catalog on www.owners.ferrari.com and the blue parts books at the Ferrari dealers show a tool roll type kit in BB512i Boxers and briefcase type kits in 365GT4BB abd BB512 boxers. |
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member
Username: Coachi
Post Number: 212
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Actually, i have often wondered if the leftover Daytona briefcase tool cases used on the last production models were later on used in the Boxer? Does anyone know? I have aquired such a tool kit and yet my 83 injected Boxer has a tool roll, and my 73 Daytona has a tool roll as well (but I know it did not come with the car).?? |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1840
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 2:56 pm: | |
JRV, and what's odd about that is that all briefcase type kits have a carb. adjustment tool included which is of not much use in an injected car. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 2:34 pm: | |
I've personally seen 82-83 BBi's with briefcases from new. Maybe it wasn't "book correct" but the owners at the time didn't seem to mind. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1839
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
When I first got my BB512i I obtained a lot of conflicting info from various sources as to whether my car would have came with a briefcase style toolkit or a tool roll type kit. Well, according to the new spare parts catalog on www.owners.ferrari.com , the 365GT4BB and BB512 Boxers came with the briefcase style kits whereas the BB512i came with the tool roll type kits. That spare parts service is going to be great for older car owners. |