| Author | Message | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 249 Registered: 9-2001 |
Yes! New issue today with a horible picture of a Zagato FZ93 based on a TR on the cover. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1939 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry, did you get the new issue of Forza today ? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1938 Registered: 9-2001 |
I may get my upgraded status from this post ! | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 248 Registered: 9-2001 |
Interesting article in FORZA today on the ASA opening paragraph. "When is a Ferrari not a Ferrari? All of us know the easy answer to this riddle: When it is a Dino." Just thought I would stir things up again, of course I am of the opinion a Dino is a very special offspring of Ferrari! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank, you shameless name-dropper!! Do you have Locust Valley Lockjaw to go with that? "Waahhl, really now, I knew old John when he was the President of Poofter USA, and old John told me . . . . ." | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 384 Registered: 9-2001 |
Glad to see that you have finally clarified your stance on this Frank...only the uniformed or insecure need refer to a Ferrari as a Dino when they are really Ferraris. (Dinos, of course, will always remain Dinos.) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1934 Registered: 9-2001 |
Arthur, you are correct that the badges on late 308GT4s were sent out by Ferrari. But, not to allow racing in some class. The change was made at the request of FNA because they had hundreds of cars sitting in dealers showrooms that would not sell with the Dino badges. I personally know John Apen, the owner of FAF who had the badges changed by Bo Pirkle back when the Dinos were new. He has and will confirm that at any time. Apen now has a TV show on PBS and Speed about exotic car auctions. Bo still has a lot of Dino badges off those cars that he has saved over the years. Bo is the one refinishing the runners/plenums, cam covers and calipers for my Boxer as I type. I'm only dropping these names as some believe I am making this Dino stuff up. I'm not. I'm growing weary of this post. I'll start something new soon to bring out more discontent from the uninformed and insecure. Coming soon to a post near you ! Stay tuned. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1031 Registered: 6-2001 |
The cars built as Dinos are Ferraris. Ferrari sent out the new badges to change from Dino to Ferrari. Those cars were built so that Ferrari could race similar vehicles. They were built by Ferrari, and have Ferrari's name on their Vehicle Identification Plate. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2003 |
You know, this thread is starting (starting?) to sound like a bunch of good 'ol boys standing around havin a chaw, n' talkin about which a dem is bettah, dose Chevys or da Fahds. Gee. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1315 Registered: 2-2001 |
What do I mean about what? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1933 Registered: 9-2001 |
What ever do you mean Ernesto ? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1314 Registered: 2-2001 |
I dont think anybody here is calling 206/246 Dinos Ferraris. Everybody accepts that. The GT4 argument is a gray area, and debatable. Its after that in the geneology timeline that most (all) people have a problem. Ernesto | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2579 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ok, I understand your point about the 206/246 as they were clearly and only badged as Dino's. People who put prancing horses or the script on the decklids are tarts. The GT4, well, there's no etched-in-stone definition, but that's been established already. But with your reply concerning those cars, why did you insist earlier on calling all the V-8's "Dinos", when its obvious to even the "unwashed" that they're Ferraris? | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2002 |
I appreciate the response Frank, please accept my appologie for misreading you. This is a difficult forum to convey this sort of thing on. I share your passion for Ferrari's and I appreciate you saying so! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1932 Registered: 9-2001 |
Peter, What I mean about the "uninformed" is that most people are not aware that the 308GT4 is a Dino rather than a Ferrari as a lot of them if not most of them have been rebadged as a Ferrari. The "insecure" refers to the ones that insist there 206, 246 or 308GT4 is a Ferrari because it has a Ferrari badge on it and they would somehow think less or perceive others would think less of their car if it is a mere Dino. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2576 Registered: 12-2000 |
Frank: "...My posts about the V6 and V8 cars all being Dinos are meant in part to get a rise out of the uninformed and insecure. And it does that well wouldn't you say ?" Yes it certainly does. So you're trying to say all the posts I made about the true history of the GT4 are made because I'm uninformed and I'm insecure???? (Honestly, I'd like this topic to drop out, but I can't let the above comments go by unanswered...) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1927 Registered: 9-2001 |
Charles, I like a lot of people love Ferrari motorcars even though they are not the fastest, best handling or highest tech cars out there. IMHO there are no cars out there that come close to the beauty, sound and fun one gets from driving a Ferrari. That's what I love about my Boxer as what I loved about other Italian exotics I have owned. My M5 is faster, handles better and is higher tech than my Boxer. Yet, the Boxer never fails to put a smile on my face. While the M5 is fun to drive, it just isn't quite the same. My posts about the V6 and V8 cars all being Dinos are meant in part to get a rise out of the uninformed and insecure. And it does that well wouldn't you say ? All and all I just love Italian cars. I once had a Fiat 1800 Spider that was almost as much fun to drive as a Ferrari and it had a four cylinder. I am far from superior than other folks and do not feel that I am regardless of your misconception as to what I think. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is an interesting quote "I don't think of it as superior to any car out there except the ones it is superior to." This came from another thread in this section. I am curious Frank exactly which cars your car is superior to? This is precisly why I said what I did. The fact is this entire argument is just a sly way to disguise the fact that you think you are superior so quit trying to hide it! By the way, I don't feel down. I just see what your hidden agenda is. If I am wrong about you fine, I appologise but if I'm not I think you should get off your high horse. No pun intended. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1926 Registered: 9-2001 |
Not only is the Boxer street car a bad track car, even the 512BBLM was slow compared to the Porsche race cars of its day. The 512BBLM made 480hp I believe at a time Porsche race cars in that class were making up to 700hp. | ||
| ken rentiers (Rentiers)
Junior Member Username: Rentiers Post Number: 114 Registered: 2-2003 |
"With the right driver an early lightweight 911 can turn low 1.40's to high 1.30's at Road Atlanta. It would take a seriously modified and tweaked boxer to run as quickly." This sounds like my 14 yr. old son's comparisons. The Boxer was never intended for the track. With the right pilot a Cessna can circle the runway faster than a 747. and...? | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 246 Registered: 9-2001 |
Frank, I saw an interview with Luca Montazemolo (sp?) and he answered that question. He said FIAT was merely a sponsor. They pay sponsorship money just like Marboro. They do not help financially in any other way nor do they have influence or knowledge on how the team is managed. Wouldn't you think FIAT would be a little bigger if this was not the case, especially considering they are on the brink of financial starvation? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1183 Registered: 8-2002 |
 | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1182 Registered: 8-2002 |
By the way, here's the "Almost a Ferrari" brochure.  Later brochures, however, refer to the car as a "product of the Ferrari limited series range" and as the "completion of the range of Ferrari small series cars." As for the GT4, the very first brochure has the prancing horse logo and refers to the car as the "experience of Ferrari in the smaller GT range." All of these brochures can be seen in Randall Baselt's book, "Ferrari: Brochures and Sales Literature - A Source Book 1968-1989" | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1309 Registered: 2-2001 |
and? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1923 Registered: 9-2001 |
And , if you look you will see "FIAT" of every F1 car running as a Ferrari too. So does FIAT sponsor the Ferrari team or does Ferrari supply engines to the FIAT team or are they one in the same ? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1308 Registered: 2-2001 |
And Renault also builds engine and chassis inhouse... Porsche merely supplied engines to a team... very different from actually running a team. There is no engine championship yet, only constructors and drivers. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1920 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry, if that were the test for F1 success then only Ferrari, Jaquar, Toyota and now Renault have a chance as they are the only four that build the entire car. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 402 Registered: 4-2002 |
True the TAG McLarens dominated and that was a Porsche engine... but I dont really compare that to Ferrari F1 success since Porsche didnt build whole car and run a factory team. If Porsche would jump into F1 with both feet, I sure wouldnt bet against them. However, todays corporate Porsche is just not the same. They have abandoned racing and are building SUV's instead. A sad state of affairs. If you want to see a direct Porsche vs Ferrari, all out racing WAR, just look back to 1969-1971 World Sportscar Championship. We all know how that came out now dont we  | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2003 |
There you go again, Frank!! Does your Boxer have one of those too cute "My other, better car is a Porsche" stickers on the bumper? Did you just buy the Boxer because it is a FLAT twelve, and it was cheaper than buying 2 911s? You are the stirring-meister, I'll grant you that! I seem to remember an Italian friend of mine telling me that there was nothing wrong with the Porsche Indycar that a bomb and a new March/Cosworth wouldn't fix! | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
New member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2003 |
Porsche re-entered F1 in 1991, if I recall correctly, with Arrows. The motor was severely overweight, underpowered and was prone to blowing up after a few laps. The motor was replaced mid-season by a Cosworth mill, and Porsche left F1, probably for good, with their tail between their legs. I was a Porsche owner at the time and it was actually quite an embarassing scene. Maybe they should stick to building Cayennes! Paul | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1919 Registered: 9-2001 |
Porsche engined cars raced in F1 from 1983 through 1987 and won 25 races, 2 manufacturers championships and 3 drivers championships. As I recall when Porsche left F1 they said they had no reason to stay as they had proven they could easily beat all the other marques racing in F1 at the time. Thats not bad. I would like to see Porsche back in F1. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 515 Registered: 8-2001 |
Sorry, Terry D. My apologies to Terry S. I always try to learn and also share knowledge. I have track records of doing this in several fields. However, there are some people (but only a very limited few) whose character leads me to not want to be associated with them. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 96 Registered: 2-2003 |
You're right about "sportscar" racing, Porsche have all the wins. Also, I don't know either you or Frank; no real idea about your cars. (Except Frank's probably has an aggravating license plate or bumper sticker!) I thought I remembered '69 911S's weighing more like 2,500lbs, but I bow to your knowledge as an owner. Similarly, I bow to your apparent knowledge of lap times, although high 1:30s sounds quite quick. (About 100 years ago, I remember being quite pleased in the area of 1:18 with an Atlantic car, and a year later, 1:13ish in a T-333CS Lola; perhaps memory fails me) In my admittedly brief experience, I found the Turbo a little difficult, e.g., lots of power understeer, distinctly unhappy trailing brake up to the apex (of course, PSM was off). By contrast, the Modena seemed a natural momentum machine, if biased toward understeer. Nevertheless, you're right, I love them both, and miss my 993. If I could afford another ridiculous expense, however, it would likely be the Modena, not the GT2! We've thankfully moved away from the whole what is a Ferrari thing. Talk later! | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 400 Registered: 4-2002 |
EFWUN, No, price is not the only thing, the cars should be in the same "class". I think the 550 and 360 would be considered in the same class as a Turbo so it probably is a decent comparison. Perhaps I am in error (and I dont mind admitting it if so). I would however ask this: IS the comparison based only on lap times? How about overall drivability and reliability. One thing about the Turbo... even a mediocre driver can do blistering laps due to PSM. My 1969 911S rolled off the factory showroom new at a weight of 2150lb. It now has or will have shortly: lightweight racing seats, lightweight interior, fiberglass front and rear bumpers and front hood, lexan rear side glass and I have ripped all unnecessary crap out. It should weight just under 2000lb. It also has an uprated suspension with larger torsion bars, larger adjustable front anti-roll bar, adjustable spring plates, camber plates, strut tower brace and assorted spherical bearings and such.... The engine is a 2.65 liter mechanically injected, 9.8:1 mahle P/C, RSR cams and sport exhaust. Its probably putting out 220 - 225hp. I run Hoosiers. I was joking when offering to bet Frank and was pretty sure he would catch it as a joke and an unfair comparison.... With the right driver an early lightweight 911 can turn low 1.40's to high 1.30's at Road Atlanta. It would take a seriously modified and tweaked boxer to run as quickly. Its funny when people see my 911 and 308 parked side by side in the garage. EVERYONE assumes the 308 is by far the faster car. In reality, the 911 is in a whole different league. When your talking about sportscar racing and winning, your talking about Porsche. Ferrari is just not there. If your talking F1, then of coarse Ferrari is IT and Porsche is not even in the game. Sure makes it fun to be a fan of both marques and both types of racing! | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 244 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry Springer, Dave, is referring to me taking offence to the sponge comment. What ever some people try to offend just to make them selves feel better. I guess I am kind of a sponge as I try to learn as much about Ferraris as possible, before I make the purchase. My only reason for being in this forum is to share experiences and knowledge and to learn from those that know more. I am glad he doesn't want to talk to me as I doubt there is much I can learn from him, or if there is the process would be way too painful. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2003 |
Terry: No animosity whatsoever. Had a wonderful 993, miss it to this day. Are you really saying your 911 weighs 2100lbs? Gee, let's revisit the "fair comparison" thing. How much have you lightened that car? Let's also talk about torque (important) versus horsepower (sells motors). Unless of course your "little" 911 motor is no longer stock either? (Visions of Peter Dawes 3.8 titanium motor bristling under "little" 911 lid!) Finally, what do prices have to do with anything? You can't really compare apples (360) with oranges (GT2). Perhaps the upcoming Stradale would be a better comparison, but in any case, the fact that Ferraris cost more isn't really germane to this issue. Simply, a 360 Modena is around 3 sec quicker around a 2 min (in-between) track than the Turbo. Perhaps less at a power circuit like Atlanta, more at Slime Rock. Of course, if you've slid an RSR under your "little" 911's sheet metal, that really isn't a fair comparison either, is it? Actually, if price is the factor, I'd bet a nice, used Swift 014 Toyota could be had for approx the cost of the Turbo, right? Fair? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 399 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Dave, I do not know who "T" is that you are referring too... but if its me, uhhhhh ok. I never said my '69 911S was stock. I never said it was running on 5 inch wide wheels with 70 series tires... I just said its a narrow bodied car on skinny wheels. Thats true: the rear wheels are 15x7 and the fronts are 15x6. I run 225x45 rear and 205/50 front tires. These are indeed "skinny" compared to modern cars and tires. The body has no fender flares or other modern updates. (The suspension and brakes on the other hand.....) Frank is smart. While he is probably engaging in some more of the sophisticated trolling that got this whole thing started with his P-car comments.... the truth is he is not off the mark. You say the 360 and the 550 "beat" the Porsche turbo? Perhaps but thats not a fair comparison either. Compare cars in a similar price catagory.... that gives you the Porsche GT2. Totally different story. Also... my little P-car may give up over 150hp to the Boxer, but it also weighs 1500lb less. Do the math. The Boxer wouldnt be running away on the straight and the 911 will crush it through the corners and under braking. Not that this is a bad word against the Boxer; I would LOVE to own one. Its a much more beautiful and sexy car than the 911. Its just different cars built and setup for different purposes. The 911 may eat it up on the track, but back in the pits parked side by side we all know which one is going to draw a crowd! I have never understood some peoples Porsche vs Ferrari animosity. I love both. Both have great history, build fantastic cars and are full of passion. Why limit yourself? Terry | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 432 Registered: 6-2002 |
Original Brochure - car never had Ferrari Badge. The Official Flower of the American Bar Association - The Hedge. Jim S.  | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 93 Registered: 2-2003 |
Oh, Frank, there you go again, stirring s**t. Please review the Road & Track article "Sibling Rivalry", where both the 360 and the 550 toasted the Turbo. Thank you for the complimentary remarks about the 550, but you should have more confidence; how is a '69 911 on 5 inch wide 70 series tires supposed to deal with a decade newer Boxer on 50 series tires? If nothing else, you can pass him on every straight (no matter your exit speed) and block him in the subsequent corner. Given your posts, I'm sure a little good-natured blocking wouldn't phase you?? | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 513 Registered: 8-2001 |
T, Just the truth. Do not know why I would ever want to talk to you. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1915 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry, no way will I take that bet. As much as I love Ferraris, I am not stupid. In a Ferarri vs. Porsche race, given equal drivers, the Porsche always wins. Porsche makes the best sports car in the world, bar none ! I only wish Ferrari could mix some of that German performance, reliability,economy and comfort with the Italian excitment and romance that is Ferrari. The 5550/575 is the only one that has came close thus far. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 437 Registered: 9-2001 |
When I started this thread, it was meant as a little jab to Frank. I had no idea it would generate this much interest. I did post # 1 and here we are at 100 | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 183 Registered: 8-2002 |
The statement "Almost a Ferrari" was referenced to Ferrari SPAs first series brochure for the Dino The brochure stated "Tiny, Brilliant, ... Almost a Ferrari" this was referenced in the forward of "246GT Super Profile" book published in 1979, it does not show the actual brochure but directly quotes it If neccessary I can scan this page in | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well said Terry! Of course what this thread means is that Frank is about to start a new business venture. He is going to start manufacturing and marketing high dollar "DINO" replicars. No worries about Ferrari Spa or FNA coming down on him, after all a "DINO" is not a "Ferrari". Apparently he is much smarter than some give him credit for. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 395 Registered: 4-2002 |
This is hilarious! Frank, my hat is off. You take the cake as the #1 Ferrarichat troll hands down. The whole Dino vs Ferrari troll getting folks so riled up is a riot! Keep it going... I plan on being at that Panoz track day. I wont be in the 308..... I'll be in my little bitty 911. However, I would love to take that bet if your willing! Your mighty 512BBi with 350+hp and real Ferrari badges and gleaming red paint and that wonderful screaming exhaust note vs my piddling little 2.6 liter 220hp antique, narrow bodied, skinny tired 1969 Porsche. Surely you will be eager to jump all over such a mis-matched arrangement! On a more serious comment vis-a-vis the whole Dino vs Ferrari thing... I consider my 308 a Ferrari because thats what the badges, books, title and owners manual call it. That said, I think its a Dino too and the Dino name is SUPER COOL! I think the Dino scripts on the badges look great and the whole Dino brand is ooozing with exotic character. I wish Ferrari had kept the Dino brand and nurtured it to greater success. Terry | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1301 Registered: 2-2001 |
That says it all. Ernesto | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 441 Registered: 2-2002 |
 "Era uno scherzo. Naturalmente miei automobili degli sei ed otto cilindri sono Ferraris!" | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 238 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dave, WOW that was pretty harsh, as if you know anything about my "sponging". For your information I have never even asked for a ride, but have accepted many offers. The cars that I do take care of are ones that the owners do not have time to keep them running. Ownership is something I strive for, but I do not consider my driving a friends car sponging. And how is my driving someone elses car irresponsible? I have never taken advantage of anyone. In fact the reason I have the Dino in my garage now is the owner called me and asked if I could drive it for a little while to make sure it was running ok, the last time he drove it, he felt it was running rough. Not that I have to explain to you, but please refrain from flaming me online and have the courage to say what you really mean to my private mail! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2003 |
Nice, Bob, a fitting end to this thread! | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 435 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dingo dogs are indigenous to Australia | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sure, in everyday situations, e.g., Tillman says to me "Efwun, I'm gonna kill Frank if he starts another thread like this." I have an affirmative duty to report that threat. However, in the circumstances where Frank knowingly misrepresents facts to Tillman, and Tillman relies on those representations and is damaged (e.g., buys Frank's Boxer!), the law imputes a duty to Frank, who will be civilly liable for fraud. (and certainly aggravation for posting this thread!!) | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 511 Registered: 8-2001 |
In many states, Bills of Sales are required to be notorizied. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 510 Registered: 8-2001 |
E - worth it. I was always told that Officers of the Court were held to higher legal standards than others. Terry, it is always best to own rather than being irresponsible and constantly sponging off others. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2003 |
I would bet Frank is getting quite a giggle out of all the consternation he's caused!! Right, Frank? | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2001 |
Are we having fun yet? | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2003 |
Stop the madness!! Save yourselves, abandon this thread!! | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2002 |
I'm amazed that this thread has gone on this long. The only car (aftert the 70's)that could ever be called a Dino is maybe the 308gt4 (since at one time it was labeled as such. But to try and call a 3X8,348,355,360 or the F40 a dino would be what the Fonz called Nutso. Frank really gets a rise out of people with this Fiat/Dino stuff and he is really the only one on here that thinks like this so why can't either he convert or everyone just let him go talking Nutso and pay no intention? If Enzo would have wanted the 308 to be called a Dino I'm sure the man had enough pull in the company to make it happen enough said. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2564 Registered: 12-2000 |
Here's another thing to add (Taken from Geoff Willoughby's "Ferrari 308, 328 & Mondial" book): ...Certainly the V-6 was nearing the end of its useful development, and a 2+2 - being larger and heavier - would need more power to sustain, if not actually improve upon, existing performance. Also, regulations aimed at cleaning up exhaust emissions - which were becoming increasingly stringent - would make it difficult to obtain that extra power and still remain legal. There had also, on a number of occasions, been some comment about the V-6's lack of torque." This explains how it was inevitable that a V-8 would be created at Ferrari eventually. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1912 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dave, don't forget that the body panels for the 360 are made in the U.S.A by Alcoa and then shipped to Italy for assembly on the car. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 234 Registered: 7-2001 |
Modena 360 Ferrari. Made by Ferrari, designed by Pinninfarina, assembled in the factory labeled Ferrari...Therefore..... a Ferrari.. nothing more nothing less. Same for the 308 GTB/GTS and 328-355 cars. I only see the 246 and 308GT4 cars as open to debate if one is needed. None is needed in my opinion. I think the Dino is a great car and a tribute to his only legitimate son who designed the motor. The car should be even more valuable based on that alone. Its a tribute to Dino Ferrari. The name shortened to Dino...hence a Ferrari anyhow | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2003 |
By the way, Dave, that'll be $500.00 please | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, all "attorneys" are officers of the court where they are admitted. Why would an attorney selling a car be under any higher obligation than a doctor selling a car? After all, doctors take the Hippocratic Oath! ANYONE is under an ethical obligation to make truthful representations on the sale of a car; anyone knowingly making false representations, which are in turn relied upon by the purchaser, to his/her detriment, is guilty of fraud under New York law. That is civil law, that fraud becomes criminal if the seller makes an attestation under penalty of perjury (a sworn statement before a notary). | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1909 Registered: 9-2001 |
Mark, facts are not subject to democratic principles. 100% of the world once thought it was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe, or that .....you fill in the blank.... They all turned out to be wrong. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 236 Registered: 9-2001 |
I guess when people stop loaning me theirs Just joking, Things are looking good for my first purchase, but my set goal of September 5th, 2004. Hopefully sooner, if all goes well, fingers crossed! | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 509 Registered: 8-2001 |
I also think this discussion is stupid. However, I do have some questions. I have been told that all attornies are Officers of the Court. Say an attorney trades a car represented as a Ferrari 348 into a dealer in another state. This is reflected in paperwork. Before, during, and after the transaction, the attorney/seller declares before the world numerous times that he knows the car is NOT a Ferrari 348, but a Dino 348. Is the attorney/seller guilty of misrepresentation in the transaction? Is this Interstate Fraud based on seller's written record? Can the attorney be disbarred? Can the buyer sue attorney/seller for damages since the Ferrari name is valuable? Terry, when are you going to buy your own Ferrari? | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 233 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks, Paul that is a great article! But now flat 12s are Dinos.....UHGGGGGGG | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Junior Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2002 |
The era of Dinos http://www.solitude-memorial.de/idx1502dino.htm Similar to the way it is told in the book "Enzo Ferrari - A Life" Paul | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2003 |
Can we accept that DNA can mutate? Perhaps, many years ago, there was a nuclear accident in the Emilia district, and the "Dino" gene was irradiated. A metamorphosis took place, and presto, its great-great grandchild has 395hp, Cavallinos rampante all over the place, and is called Ferrari. What's the f***'ing difference? Can't we all just get along??? At least Ken seems to have a sense of humor! | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 763 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes, the wheather is nice! LOL Okay Frank, imagine for a moment you're in charge of marketing at Ferrari in a bizarro world where EVERYONE calls an 8 cylinder Ferrari a Dino. The company president asks you to find some way for the Ferrari car company to make an 8 cylindar car that will be a true Ferrari, i.e. once and for all jettisoning the Dino gene that has been preventing widespread acceptance. You reply of course that it can't be done. THAT is why I call the 300 series cars doomed from this Dino gene, in your way of thinking. Dinos are great cars but it's 30 plus year old technology! Dinos aren't made that way any more. They have computers, and fuel injection. And little prancing horses. And they're now called 'Ferrari'. Dinos don't have any of that Ferrari stuff. Dinos have carburetors. And little yellow 'Dino' badges. So why is a 360 a Dino? In your mind, because there once was a car called a Dino GT4 that had 8 cylinders. Isn't that point of view at least STARTING to sound absurd? | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 434 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have looked at this and it seems to come down to simple logic. Of the 8,000,000,000 billion people on this rock.... one guy (Frank) like to split hairs and call some Ferrari's Dinos. Frank you are now famious amoung the .0001% of people that care.I think you should enjoy your accomplishment. You have done something on the web, and will alsways stand out as unique. Of the other 7,999,999,992 peple on Earth, they call it a Ferrari. I guess I stand with that group. PS I'm glad some still think a 12 is the only real Ferrari. The way 550 prices are dropping like stones... they should all be able to enjoy one soon. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 431 Registered: 9-2001 |
I love my ?????????????308GTS, question is what should be on the floor mats? ( besides my feet ) | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 181 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, It was in an old book from the 70s the 246GT Buyers Guide I checked out at the library, I'll check it again and see if I can make a copy, but yes I am positive thats what the ad stated as well as many of the articles of owners were asked how they felt about the car being a Dino not Ferrari and they stated it was every bit as much a Ferrari to them The Dino had a rep as a half Fiat/Ferrari until the 80s when Ferrari embraced the car as its own which was why you could buy one for 10,000-15,000 back in the late 70s early 80s, its a great car but ironic it had this history and they became so collectable today and pricey | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gee, it's like my comments are invisible!! Nice "weather" ken!! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1906 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ken, shouldn't the question be whether or not a 308, 328, 348, 355 or 360 is good enough to be badged as a Dino ? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 762 Registered: 10-2001 |
I forgot to mention; I used the term 'doomed' because SOME people now call all 8 cylinder Ferraris 'Dino' which isn't a knock on Dinos; it's an insult to Ferrari that they aren't good enough to BE a Ferrari! | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2001 |
Frank, I agree a Dino is a Dino. That's what they were called; weather a 246 or a GT4. A GT4 Dino with a factory Ferrari badge is a Ferrari Dino. Same car of course, but it's still whatever the factory calls it. It's the fact you call 3X8's Dinos based on that Dino gene spawned by the GT4 that me and many here take issue with. If FNA or whoever representing Ferrari puts a Ferrari badge on a car, it IS a Ferrari. I don't share the percieved belief that a Dino is a lesser car. More obscure a name for sure than Ferrari. If I had a 246 while I doubt I'd take a crowbar to any little horses or scripts that were on it I'd still call it a Dino. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 68 Registered: 2-2003 |
Guys! It's more than just the fact that it says Ferrari on the MSO. While that makes it a Ferrari, the fact is that all of the cars you guys are discussing have a certain soulful quality that differentiates them from Porsche, or Mercedes or any other make. It may be present in larger (P3/4) or smaller (308GT/4) doses, but it is present in all of them!! They're all Ferraris. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1902 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ken, why would the V6 and V8 cars be "doomed" if they are known as Dinos ? Isn't it statements like that that create the impression that a Dino is somehow less than a Ferrari. I suppose my comments have been misunderstood. I love Dinos, however they are badged, and consider them just as much of an Italian exotic as a Ferrari. They are just not Ferraris. There are a lot of cars out there that are just as fun, fast, good looking and as exotic as a Ferrari that are not Ferraris. Why do some people on FC infer that if they own a car badged as a Dino it is somehow less of an exotic than the same car rebadged as a Ferrari. I would rather have the correctly badged car. In fact, if I bought a 308GT4 that someone had rebadged as a Ferrari, I would take it to the paint and body shop and have all the Ferrari badging replaced with the correct Dino badging. So there, run tell that ! | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 324 Registered: 4-2001 |
Well. Ferrari was made to be driven fast and hard as hell, even the road going cars. Enzo was a racing driver himself and knew what it�s all about. He drove his road going cars quite hard. I�m quite sure that Sig. Ferrari up in his heaven agrees on this; A real Ferrari is a combo of Man and Machine. If a car is badged Ferrari/Dino and it�s driver have hit the rev limit or been in the read area several times, tracked it several times, have hit it�s maximum speed, locked up the front brakes regularly, had a couple of spins, toe-heeled etc. Or for short, driven it like it was designed to be driven, FLAT OUT. I have blown the doors of Maranellos, 348�s 355�s on track or road with my little FERRARI 328 GTB. That�s a FERRARI, says the old man in his heaven, the others are not. A 206 Dino driven properly on track is a Ferrari, a 250 GTO on a trailer on it�s way to an �most original parts� contest is not. Therefore Sig. Ferrari loves me and my Ferrari much more than he loves many GTO/F40/F50-owners and that makes me happy. J . Simply because I do what the car was designed to do. You can also be a Ferrari driver� Point 2: In fact, Umberto Agnelli owns FIAT spa who owns parts of Ferrari/Maserati, Mediobanca owns a lot and Piero Ferrari owns 10%. So Ferrari is a Ferrari/Agnelli/Mediobanca if you want to go on that path (which is stupid). Point 3: Ferrari also said that aerodynamics is for those who can�t build proper engines. Does that mean that Ferrari Enzo, which got the best aero package ever seen on a road legal vehicle, has a bad engine or is it not a Ferrari? Ciao Peter | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 507 Registered: 8-2001 |
Don't attornies take courses in logical thinking? Jeff, do you or anyone else have a copy of that ad? That is not something that an advertising agency would logically do! Are you sure your memory is correct? | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 690 Registered: 5-2001 |
If it cost $2700 to produce it, Ferrari would sell it for $28,000. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 843 Registered: 5-2002 |
And if perfecting the state of the 8 cylinder technology is NOT the way to go, then the only way to gain horsepower is to add MORE cylinders to a V12. Like a V16, V20, or V24! Of course at that point, the distributor cap would have to be 3 feet in diameter to hold all those wires and contact points and would cost $2700 all by itself. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3245 Registered: 2-2001 |
The only problem I have with the 8s being inferior than real Ferraris is that the 8s have always been damn near a 12 with 4 cylinders cut off. All the same design and craftsmanship, etc. The other point is that starting with the 308 quattrovalvole, Ferrari has poineered all its road going technology in their 8 cylinder cars (nikasil liners, combustion chamber design, 4 valves cylinder, 5 valves cylinder, F1 shifting, electronic throttles, etc.). It's pretty hard to argue that cars carrying all the cutting edge technology for Ferrari are not in fact Ferraris, or for that matter lesser than the 12s. Just seems kind of ridiculous to me. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ken, Great post ... thanks for the laugh. The nail has been hit. Rob, Would love to see a comparison, but as you say very hard to do in the real world. Even when I witness these Boxers run, it was a long time ago when classic racing in NZ was in its early days, etc. plus driver ability was miles above all others. Wayne, Interesting comparison with the Maserati Bora (one of my favourite cars) ... didn't think a Bora would have given a Boxer a hard time anywhere ... there ya go, these comparisons are bloody hard. BTW the race car I was talking about was a space frame sportscar, weighing only 512 kgs with rose jointed suspension, etc. ... so hardly fair Pete | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3915 Registered: 12-2000 |
Very well put Ken. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think I understand Frank. He's thinking that the GT4 was a Dino originally and all the 3** series cars evolved from this Mother Dino. If the 246 had been replaced with other six cylinder cars, those too would be have been Dinos. You can badge these cars 'Ferrari' to market them, as they were, but they all carry this Dino gene. In Frank's mind, this is a patheological condition that no amount of badging can overcome. All six and eight cylinder "Ferraris" are now doomed to be Dinos due to this gene. This is an internally consistant argument of circular logic. The loony bin is filled with others who have similar reasoning patterns on a myriad of subjects. I am not sure of Frank's current state of mind, but we in the real world would say that if a car company that goes by the name 'Ferrari' makes a car and badges it as a "Ferrari", that's what it is, genetic history not withstanding. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2002 |
William, Your point is taken on the original Ferrari literature, The "Almost a Ferrari" statement was from a Ferrari ad in Road & TRack in the early 70s, not the official Ferrari brochure, this was in the 246GT Buyers Guide which had numerous car rag tests, I was suprised at the statement when I saw it since it came from Ferrari | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1139 Registered: 12-2001 |
This whole thing about before and after enzo was in control determining what is and isnt a ferrari isnt nearly as complicated as owning a lamborghini. Just imagine the identity crisis a lambo owner goes through. Are they VW's? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1136 Registered: 8-2002 |
Quick somewhat-unrelated note: I was thumbing through some European car magazine at the news stand yesterday and they had a comparison between the Boxer and the Maser Bora. It was interesting to note that the Maser (more torque) trounced the 512 in the 0-60 while the 512 (more hp) had it all over the Maser in top speed. That's all. You can go back to your discussion now. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3910 Registered: 12-2000 |
I agree that Boxers aren't bad track cars, I think they're great, but I think a stock BB vs. a stock 328 would be closer than people first assume. As far as me taking on a BB, I'm just very competitive and have confidence in my driving. I'm not sure if I would be faster in a 308 or BB, I think it would depend on the track. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rob,
First of all this was not supposed to be a 308 bashing of v8 Ferrari bashing comment, but simply that a Boxer on a race track is not as pathetic as alot of misinformed people seem to think. Thus I'm confused, but I'll put it this way ... PSk in a (standard) Boxer would be faster than PSk in a (standard) 308 around most race tracks, based on what I have watched and seen. No comparison. Isn't there nearly 130hp advantage to the Boxer and otherwise fairly even, i.e. similar suspension and brakes, size, weight (not sure) ... except for this thing about a Boxer not handling (compared to a Porsche 911/930/935 they are theoretically miles better ... didn't stop Porsche winning on the race tracks). And again I admire and love the 308, but I have seen Boxers classic race in standard form and they were bloody impressive, not at all the useless track cars that some make out to be. In the end more power and similar handling ... I just cannot see a 308 hanging on to one ... unless the Boxer driver is still on L plates Anyway, I do not want to cause YET another senseless argument, as I cannot afford either ... and have blown many standard and race prepared 308 Ferraris away with a car that had the engine in the front (but very, very low) and had but a solid rear axle and only had 200hp to play with ... Pete | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2002 |
here is a copy of the dino brochure from the time when the car was new. it doesn't read that a dino is "almost a ferrari" to me. when i read the literature, i read "another successful product of the Ferrari limited series range".  | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3905 Registered: 12-2000 |
PSk, who cares about adding in all the variables of what eventually will make a Boxer a track competitor. Heck, MS in a Yugo could beat 95% of the world in a Porsche Turbo. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 179 Registered: 8-2002 |
The Dino issue started from Ferrari whom stated in their sales literature "Almost a Ferrari", Ferrari was appealing to a lower end price level car and did not want to take away from the Daytona/Ferrari image since it had many Fiat made parts THe Dino engine was designed by Ferrari along with the rest of the car, but Fiat built the engine parts to save costs and did some assembly but Ferrari finished it The 308 series on was all Ferrari parts and assembly "in house" hence they are Ferraris not Dinos | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 382 Registered: 9-2001 |
Since I am usually the first to jump on Frank for the Dino comments, let me get his back by stating that I have never seen him put anyone's car down whether he refers to them as Dinos or not. And BTW, a real Ferrari is one that is driven... | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2002 |
Okay this thread is getting out of hand. Lets think about this for a moment. Enzo Ferrari controlled the road car side of his company from 1947 to 1972 or 73. Thus the last car he controlled the manufacture of was the 365GTB/4. FIAT took over the Ferrari road car company from then and the change is obvious with the 308 and the Boxer, etc. but the company was and still is Ferrari, thus Ferrari was still making road cars just under FIATs control. Thus all Ferrari's are still Ferraris, just some were made when Enzo was involved and some were not. In the end does it really matter (to some obviously) but considering the fact that Enzo didn't give 2 shits about his road cars, this is a mute point. Road cars made money for his racing that is all he cared about (aparently). Now the only other issue is the Dinos. This confusion was caused by Enzo himself because he did not want to sell a roadcar badged as a Ferrari with less than twelve cylinders, thus he kept the badge off, but they were made in the Ferrari factory and thus are a car manufactured by Ferrari, and thus Ferraris. It is similar to Lexus, which is a brand that Toyota created because they (incorrectly in my view) believed that the Toyota brand would not have the right snob value to sell luxury cars ... but we all know they are made by Toyota. I agree with the comment that Enzo wanted all his road cars to be v12s (not sure he cared which end they lived) but FIAT could and did do what ever they liked ... but the cars are STILL Ferraris, just like Alfa Romeos with FIAT engines are still Alfa Romeos (you do not know how sad this makes me, being a true Alfisti ... even the v6 engine is going to be dropped and replaced with a GM one by 2004  ). Thus if we want to waste key strokes, lets keep arguing this one, but the argument is really Do you want to own a Ferrari OR own a Ferrari that was made when Enzo was running the company!. They are all still Ferraris, and some are better than others. Pete ps: I have seen a well setup and maintained (standard) Boxer Ferrari destroy a grid of Porsches and 308 Ferraris. Admittedly this guy could drive, but it is nonsense that a Boxer will not be fast on a race track driven by a professional driver. Brakes packing up after 2 laps if due to questionable maintenance or setup or driving style ... these things fly, and can go round corners too. Remember they are very low cars, and yes the engine sits on top of the gearbox, but that is lower than 90% of other cars and comparable to a v12 sitting proudly upright. They might not be able to pull the G's of a good 308, but they will not be very far behind and once the road straightens ... good bye!. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 275 Registered: 11-2002 |
Henry Ford didn't want blacks working on his assembly line. So Frank....does that mean that every Ford that a black worker worked on is not considered a Ford, because Henry didn't want them built that way, y'know. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1034 Registered: 5-2002 |
working on my front engine 12's is a breeze compared to my 8's. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 262 Registered: 9-2002 |
When you mention the name Ferrari to most people, the car that pops into their heads first is the 308,328 series cars. To most people that is the most "real" Ferrari there ever has been. Most really can't identify an older Ferrari because they just don't know. But when a 308,328 pulls up beside them,they know what it is. And yes we have to thank Magnum P.I. for that. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 505 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank, As an attorney, would a Judge accept your arguments? "rather than some type of acceptance of the V8 cars into the Ferrari bosom." Do you have hard knowledge to support that? It seems that more 8s are sold than 12s. It seems they are accepted. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3236 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am pretty sure that the last real Ferrari to date is the Enzo, before that it was the 360. This arguments are some of the most ridiculous things ever written. Because it's 8 cylinder it's a Fiat? Some of you guys need to get off the pipe dreams. Ferrari makes 8 cylinder cars and I assure they are in fact real (have mass, etc., not figments of our imaginatino) and are made in Maranello by Ferrari. To suggest they are not "real" Ferraris would be to suggest they are either some sort of ghost or that it is really a big conspiracy and they are made over at Fiat only to be secretly transported to Maranello where they pretend that they were made there. And just remember, there would be no 12s if it weren't for the 8s keeping the company afloat. And another point, how many of you actually work on your 12s... it sucks compared to the 8s. There's also infinitely more problems with the 12 cylinder cars than there are with the 8 cylinder cars, not only engine related, but related to the cars themselves. Everyone puts this stupid halo around adding 4 more cylinders like it's magic or something. Oh my goodness, how do they do it. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 241 Registered: 8-2001 |
For what's it worth, I took my BB to the track a few times and of all the sports cars I've owned (save the wretched Countach), it was absolutely the worst. BB brakes fade and pedals go to the floor after 1-2 laps, steering is nasty and rear end way too happy with stock Michelins. BB sounds good and look good, so, Frank, rev it up in your garage and get a "real" driver like a 360 if you want to spend quality time at the track. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3898 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yes, but if your conditions are in the dry, not being within 4 seconds even is beyond variable stats. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1901 Registered: 9-2001 |
Like other sports you can't win with a stat. You have to play the game or run the race. Put your 328 where your keyboards at. You can sign up now at www.panozracingschool.com | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3896 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, how about the 355 C then? ...just kidding. I haven't run Road Atlanta before, but a guy I race with in SRX7 ran ARRC at RA end of last year in his SRX7 and I know how much faster he is than me and I know how much faster my SRX7 is than my Ferrari 328. My 328 is 100% stock with very hard street tires, they're actually M&S and I have P-Zeros on back order, but the following times were on these 280 tread rating M&S tires. Tony Lee's SRX7 time at Road Atlanta: 1:50.208 http://www.arrc-online.com/qualifyingresults_2002/qualifying_group1.pdf Tony Lee's best SRX7 time at MSR: 1:29.4 Rob's best SRX7 time at MSR: 1:29.5 Rob's best Ferrari 328 GTS time at MSR: 1:32.70 So the factor should be 92.7/89.4 = 1.0369 * 110.208 = 1:54.28 is Rob's Virtual Ferrari 328 GTS Road Atlanta Time to Beat Road Atlanta even favors a high HP car more than the tight MSR, but still I bet you won't even get under 1:58, much less come close to 1:54. All in good fun of course.  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1900 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dr Tommy, yes. I have done the Panoz track days in a lot of different cars including my 328, TR, 400GT, M3 and M5. Its the most fun you can have with your clothes on. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 684 Registered: 5-2001 |
Can you sign on the Panoz thing with your Ferrari? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1898 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rob, if you think a 328 can outperform a BB512i on the track, you're dreaming. I've had both and there is no comparison. In fact I plan to do the Panoz track day at Road Atlanta in July. Boxer vs. 328? Loser pays the others track fees. You ready ? | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1032 Registered: 5-2002 |
Many purist agree with Dr. Tommy that the last real Ferrari was the Daytona. And as Peter has posted the GT4 is a Ferrari cleary having been manufactured by Ferrari. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2001 |
Let it be known, hence forth let this site be called FiatDinoFerrarichat.com | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1896 Registered: 9-2001 |
Wrong again Charles. If you will check the archives you will find that I often referred to my ex-348 Spider as a Dino and as a Fiat. And I have never "put down" a V8 car nor a V8 car owner. I have owned two myself and loved them both! Just because you feel "down" doesn't necessarily mean someone is putting you down. Pat, that's correct, only Dino 308GT4s destined for the U.S.A were rebadged as Ferrari. The rest of the word got the cars badged as a Dino. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 561 Registered: 10-2002 |
Agreed with that Rob. But let's not forget, that Fiat did indeed have some influence on Ferrari and IMHO some of those were quite positive like e.g. rust protection up to modern standards. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3892 Registered: 12-2000 |
It's all bull ••••, I don't care what Ferrari said, Ferrari did whatever was the fastest, back in the day of the cross country 1000 km races and even the race tracks with 2-3 mile straight aways big engines ruled! That's why the Ferrari 12 ruled! It was a bigger engine and had more HP than the competition. So true that the competitive roots of Ferrari were soiled in it's big 12's. However, soon after the competition caught back up to Ferrari and had better chassis too. The race tracks were also changing, chicanes were added to slow the cars down and the cross country races were out lawed after all the deaths. It's a new ball game, a competitive car needs to be light, nimble, and fast. My 328 GTS could kick a BB's ass on the track. Which car is more competitive? A 328. What is Ferrari in it's roots? A race team with production cars to fund it. Whatever is the most competitive car no matter of cylinders is what Ferrari is truly about. Who knows, Ferrari might be making battery powered supper cars in several decades. They will still be Ferraris. You don't put yesterday's standards on today. Enjoy yesterday for what it is... history. I love Ferrari history, but a Ferrari is still a Ferrari. Yesterday's and Today's. Oh, and about Fiat, who cars if they own a large percentage of Ferrari. I don't care who on paper owns Ferrari. Does Fiat own the Ferrari soul? Do the Ferrari employees think of themselves as Fiat employees? Do most Ferrari owners think of themselves as Fiat owners? Ferrari is far beyond who owns it on paper. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1287 Registered: 2-2001 |
In Frank's defense, he has always had his ridiculous Dino argument... even when he had his Ferrari 348 Ernesto | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think Frank is the insecure one. PSY 101, Insecure people tend to pump themselves up by putting others down. I would bet You had a different opinion when you still had your 348 Frank. Now you have BB so of course you would make that argument. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2560 Registered: 12-2000 |
EFWUN: "...at least they don't make an SUV!!!" Give it time, they eventually will!!!  Look, here's the story about the GT4, taken from Winston Goodfellow's book: "Italian Sports Cars" ...Most surprising was the model's wedge-shaped Bertone coachwork. The first non-Pinninfarina production Ferrari since the mid-1950's. "It wasn't Ferrari asking us to manufacture the Dino 308", said Bertone's Enzo Prearo, "it was Fiat asking us to replace production of the Fiat Dino Coupe with a new Dino. As Ferrari's coachbuilder had always been Pinninfarina, we left Ferrari to them". While this clears up why the GT4 debuted under the Dino badge, Marcello Gandini says Enzo Ferrari was actively involved in the car's design. Fiat had realised they couldn't sell an expensive Fiat (The Dino Coupe), but with the big investment into the project already, Enzo's direction in the project and his need for a replacement of the 246, they gave it to him. He replaced his aging 246 with a modern competitor to the Urraco and the 911. The Ferrari badging was strictly a sales booster and was successful as the GT4 (at that time) was the best selling model ever for Ferrari. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1285 Registered: 2-2001 |
Wasnt it a Honda Boxer? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1894 Registered: 9-2001 |
P.S., I love my Fiat Boxer. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 683 Registered: 5-2001 |
Something else too; arguably the last "real" Ferrari would have been the 365GTB/4. The last year it was produced was 1973? 1972? Anyway. that was 30 years ago. Ferrari was officially begun in 1947. That means history has produced more "not real" Ferraris for a longer period of time then they ever made the real ones. If it rolled off the assembly line at the Factory, how could it not be a Ferrari? | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 429 Registered: 9-2001 |
Frank, didn't Enzo also say the horse should be in front not in back????? | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 225 Registered: 9-2001 |
I will take a photo of the 206 vin plate tonight, I know it has a prancing horse on it, but I do not think it says Ferrari. We will never clear this up anyway. Frank is intent on his "Proper" Ferrari terminology. Ferraris are no more FIATs than Lamborghinis are Audis or Neons are Mercedes. Now the Aston Martin thing is weird, because now they come with Cosworth Ford engines, no longer Aston Martin. FIAT does not manufacture Ferraris. Enzo also made statement about aerodynamics being for a company that doesn't know how to make horsepower. So does that mean when Ferrari adapted aerodynamic technology they lost something? NO! Enzo was a great man, in that he hired other great men and ran a VERY successful race team with very little money. Him making some statement about all Ferraris are V12 just doesn't make since when he claimed victory after victory to V6s straight 4s and so on. To now say he meant road cars is rediculous, we don't even know if he said it or if he was speaking in jest or he was in another fowl mood. Frank can call Ferraris - Vespas for all I care, to me they are Ferraris. Enzo embraced the F40. The flagship has always been a V12 and rightly so, the V12 is the pinacle of Ferraris sports car success and has a beautiful sound and spirit, but hell I would take a 625TF over a lot of V12s and I would take a F2001 over many V12s also, Ferrari or not. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 682 Registered: 5-2001 |
It is my understanding that due to Dino Ferrari's input (whatever it was) on the development of the V-6 in the late 50's and subsequent death during that time; all Ferrari 6 cylinders were named "Dino" from then foward. I understand the GT4 was badged by the factory as a "Dino" but as we all know was later changed for marketing purposes. The 308's that replaced the 246 were never officially labeled Dino except by some early magazine reviews. I do not believe the factory ever wanted them to be known as such because of the GT4 problems in the US. If I am incorrect, please tell me because I really feel like this is how things went. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ferrari is supposed to have said "A Ferrari is a twelve cylinder car." Nevertheless, he said a lot of things, and if they built it a Scaglietti, and it has a Ferrari vin tag, it's a Ferrari, no? Perhaps we're discussing the essence of a Ferrari, that "front-engined V-12" thing. I have an '01 550, and I love it, but my 355s were so beautiful I used to sit in my garage while having my coffee and just stare at them. Face it, Ferrari has evolved; at least they don't make an SUV!!! | ||
| Stephen A. Thompson, II (Sat4re)
New member Username: Sat4re Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2003 |
Strangely, I find Frank's response satisfying. Fiats Rule! I can't wait to see Team Fiat kick some butt this weekend! I suppose if you drive your Boxer backward, you can say you own a Ferrari, too. By the way, it's great seeing a fellow Mercer Alumnus stirring up such a debate! | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2001 |
"is my understanding that Enzo wanted ALL his road going cars to be front engined V12s" And so, pray tell, what is a Boxer? | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2002 |
So are the euro cars badged as a Dinos then since Europe wouldn't care what the USA wants them to be called? | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 560 Registered: 10-2002 |
Uuh, you got me shaken. I'm such an insecure Fiat owner. :-( ...nott! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1893 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well here I go. From my over one decade of Ferarri ownership and reading on the subject, it is my understanding that Enzo wanted ALL his road going cars to be front engined V12s. Statements to that effect were made by Enzo years after he already hav 4, 6 and 8 cylinder F1 and other type race cars. Even after the 308GT4 production started, it was badged as a Dino rather than a Ferrari. Due to need of the U.S. market and the image consious nature of us ego monster Americans, FNA convinced Ferrari Spa. to allow the change of the Dino badges on the 308GT4 to Ferrari badges. After that all future V8 models from the 308 to the 360 used the Ferrari name. It is clear that that was done for the economics of the U.S. market rather than some type of acceptance of the V8 cars into the Ferrari bosom. I acknowledge that the V8 cars since the 308 have all been badged as Ferraris and have never been badged as Dinos. The fact is, I just don't care. I still think a proper Ferrari has a V12 engine and always will. Plus, its a lot of fun to get all the insecure V8 owners out there stirred up ! The truth be told they're all Fiats now anyway (V8 and V12) and have been since the Daytona. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2557 Registered: 12-2000 |
The GT4 is in a fuzzy, gray area when it comes to identifying it. The VIN plate on the door-jam reads Ferrari:  The plate on the steering column reads solely: "Dino 308GT4" ?????? Whatever the hell it is, its one skook'em ride...  | ||
| Stephen A. Thompson, II (Sat4re)
New member Username: Sat4re Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm glad someone finally started this thread. I've made several posts questioning Frank's logic in naming V-8 Ferraris Dinos. On a related thread, Frank argues that you know a Dino is a Dino based on the sales literature, manuals, and emblems. Somehow this logic doesn't apply when looking at the same stuff for the V-8 cars. As I said before, the sales literature, manuals, emblems, etc. of the 308, 328, 348, 355, 360, 288 GTO and F-40 all clearly state that the subject automobile is a Ferrari. Strangely enough, even Ferrari claims they are Ferraris when posed with the question. Frank even admits that he sometimes refers to his Ferrari as a Fiat. I believe this is where he makes a critical mistake. If his Boxer is a Fiat (the parent company) then should not a 328 be a Ferrari? Carried further, a Dino would then be a Ferrari. Even more perplexing is how Frank would have to classify a new Maserati. The parent company is Ferrari. Are Maseratis Ferraris? Clearly, Frank's logic fails when faced with his contradictory statements. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2002 |
I believe that the Identification Plate on the 206, 246, 208GT4, and early 308GT4 shows that these cars are Dinos (see Bluemel page 29). So they are Dinos, even if they were built by Ferrari. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 559 Registered: 10-2002 |
So what does the VIN of a Dino 246 or a 308 GT/4 actually say? Does it say Ferrari? (not trying to stir the fire, I really don't know) | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 224 Registered: 9-2001 |
Of course VIN numbers will work with the modern cars, but you are correct with the classics the chassis numbers and engine serial numbers are needed to make sure the car is a real Ferrari, but we are not talking about Fake Ferraris or Kit cars. I think the debate was about the definition of a Ferrari, and with that I agree with Bruno, if it was manufactured at Ferrari and marked as a Ferrari from the factory, then it is a Ferrari! | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 428 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bruno and Terry My point exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 558 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, I'm suprised a purist lets it rest with the VIN. I would have expected some more 'proofs' like chassis #, engine # etc. But I suppose we're not talking Frankenferraris here. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 223 Registered: 9-2001 |
I agree with Bruno! I know this was not directed at me, but I will butt in for a moment. Look at the VIN plate if it says Ferrari on it then to me it is a Ferrari. I really expected a better answer from Frank, I am disappointed. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 427 Registered: 9-2001 |
Frank, you can do better than that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1892 Registered: 9-2001 |
It depends on what "is" is ? | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1026 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bottom line is if it came out of Ferrari with the name Ferrari than it's a Ferrari. And I am a purist. Sorry for budding in. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1284 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL... Ernesto | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 426 Registered: 9-2001 |
What consitutes a real Ferrari? Must it be 12 cylinders, must it have the transmission upfront and must the engine be up front and a true V not flat? If all or some of these are the requirements then there are a lot of Fiat/Dinos/kitcars out there. The Boxer certainly can�t be a real Ferrari with it�s flat rear engine, how about the Daytona with it�s transaxle. The F1 cars don�t even come close to being a real Ferrari, only a V10 and rear engine. Frank,your thoughts on this are welcomed. |