| Author |
Message |
Marcus Mayeux (Mmayeux73)
New member
Username: Mmayeux73
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 4:48 pm: | |
You want to talk abou crazy HP's Bugatti Veyron-1001 hp's (the higher output version)...and what a beautiful car it is. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
New member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 4:33 pm: | |
Quote: "There is truly a mystic to owning/driving a Ferrari that can't be put in words. You must own one to understand. "
1) I think you mean mistique to owning and driving.
2) You only have to drive one to understand how a Ferrari is more than a set of numbers {HP, 0-60,...} with a pretty skin. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 776
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 4:04 pm: | |
Ferrari will do just what they always done. Nothing! Ferraris have not been leaders in the horsepower wars since the 1950s. When the 275 was the top ferrrai road car, the U.S. muscle cars had way more HP. When the Daytona was new, the Corvette, Camaro and Firebird had more HP. When it was the 308/328 on top, almost everything had more HP. When the TR was the top Ferrrai dog, the Countach outpowered it. Now that the 550 is the top Ferrari road car, the Viper, Porsche TT, Lambo and many others top it in HP. Ferraris have always been about more than HP, 0-60mph times and quarter mile times. There is truly a mystic to owning/driving a Ferrari that can't be put in words. You must own one to understand. |
Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member
Username: Corsa
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 3:54 pm: | |
Manu got something there...
Ciao
Peter |
Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
New member
Username: Mr_0011
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 1:26 pm: | |
Ferrari should start to lighten their cars. They should be as light or almost as light as new TVRs. Not as heavy as Vipers and M5s. |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 12:29 pm: | |
Nick:
Caterham licensed the design for the Lotus 7 from Colin Chapman and manufacturers it under the Caterham name. Power choice is optional since it is a kit car. Like all Loti, they make great track cars if you value light weight and handling over pure power. Also, they are aerodynamically challenged thanks to their cycle fender design. |
Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
New member
Username: Mlambert890
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 12:12 pm: | |
I find this new age HP war kind of depressing, to be honest. Reason?
All of this engine power seems destined for giant sedans, sport coupes, roadsters and wierdo hybrid duty cars (these strange wagon/compact car/SUV things)
There are painfully few "traditional" sports cars on the horizon. You know, sexy swoopy shapes and dangerous curves.
It seems like everyone is targeting the M3/M5 market these days. Thank God for Ferrari and Porsche! |
nick l (Nsxnick)
New member
Username: Nsxnick
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 11:51 am: | |
anyone familiar with the caterham r500?
i think it gets its name from its hp/weight ratio (500hp per ton). i think it weighs about 800lbs.
it's suppose to be one of the best track cars in the world. |
David Prall (Davidpra)
Junior Member
Username: Davidpra
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 10:32 am: | |
What will Ferrari do in the horsepower war?
Oh, I'm sure their response will be the same that it has always been -- they will lie about their HP ratings!! I've never seen any modern (post 1975) Ferrari make any where close to the factory quoted HP rating.
Don't get me wrong, as others have posted, Ferraris are about more than horsepower, and that's why we love them. But, at any given time, there are always many cars from many makers out there that will smoke your Ferrari in a HP contest. |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 6:15 am: | |
Does anyone know how much an F40 rear bumper costs????
.......�18,000 !!! COnvert to $$$ for your own interpretation.
Use of composites to lighten cars is some way off - at the moment, financially unfeasible for production Ferraris.
Worse still, is that Ferrari customers insist on a beautiful cabin, comfy seats, air conditioning, power windows, sound proofing, elec seats, cd players, sat nav and door bins and shelves for storage, abs, traction control etc etc etc the list goes on
......AND THEN WE COMPLAIN THE CARS ARE TOO HEAVY!!!
Its sentiment like that which casued Ferrari to drop mid-engined layouts for their most powerful production models....
....we can't have everything.
Hence the increasing horsepower levels to move performance forward... |
Luigi Gatti (Luigi)
New member
Username: Luigi
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 4:11 am: | |
I couldn't agree more with what Jason said.The manufacturers are building constantly bigger and heavier cars and try to mask this by giving great horsepower engines.
Weight saving is the key.Not only will it give better performance on a straight line, but a lower weight allows for better handling, braking even less fuel consumption.
The only real problem is that it costs less to tweak an engine to squeeze a few horses from it than to lower considerably the weight of a car which has to meet certain safety and environmental requirements.
The only way to effectively do so is through composite materials(aluminum,carbonfibre,kevlar,titanium,magnesium...)but not by implementing a little carbon or aluminum to a steel chassis and body (a la Vanquish), but by utilising these materials for the chassis, body, engine etc...
The cost might be a little higher, but it can be done as Ferrari and Alcoa showed.
So come on manufacturers, start putting those engineers to work!And lets see a new trend taking place... |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Junior Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 136
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 1:32 am: | |
Hey, you forgot about comparing against a gas powered remote control car! way way faster than anything on wheels for its h/p to weight ratio, I think.. am I missing something better? next thing ya know you'll be comparing against cheetahs and birds on the 1/4 mile challenge. He He.. |
magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2309
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 10:56 pm: | |
Ed you just said it all. This is the answer to many of the threads we have had on Vette vs. Ferrari. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 358
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 10:04 pm: | |
Ernie:
I don't know what other 125 karts have for HP, but mine has over 45 HP, and weighs less than 200#s, the X06 with its 415, and 3600#s is under powered compared to the Karts.
the Kart will pull 1.4 Gs, and make the Corvette look like sh*t. Will do the same to just about everything else but an IRL, CART or F1 car.
Art
|
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 267
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 9:58 pm: | |
I can't say it enough V10!!!!!! The next level Ferrari's have to use a small displacement V10. They need to get rid of the timing belts and step into the hightech with electro actuated pneumatic valves. This way they can get the power by revving the engine higher, and dont have to increase displacement. I think 12,5000 rpm isn't out of the question. This will also aid in weight reduction.
As far as weight reduction I can't agree more. Case in point, if you take a 125 shifter kart that has ooooh lets 25hp, and put on a track up againts a more powerful yet heavier Z06 with 405hp. The Z06 will have it's ass handed to it by the lighter yet extremely less powerful kart. Loss the weight and you need less power to accomplish the same task. Carbon Fiber is the material for the feat. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 998
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 6:26 pm: | |
I remember when just the opportunity of seeing a Corvette was just as rare and thrilling as seeing a Ferrari. Back in the late 50s and early 60s if you saw a Vette you would talk about it for weeks. Now they are as common as VWs but that does not make them any less potent or roadworthy, just more common and less likely to turn heads. The less potent and roadworthy Ferraris turn the heads and strike up the conversation due to their mystique and rarity. |
Nunja Bitness (Jaxfl)
New member
Username: Jaxfl
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:35 pm: | |
I agree with the posts about weight savings. Manufacturers should be concerned with achieving a certain power/ weight ratio when they make a sports car. That should be one of the main stats mentioned along with the performance numbers. Anything under 8 lbs per hp is going to be fast. What is the McLaren F1 road car 4.5 lbs/ hp? That new heavy Lambo would need 900 HP to compete with it. Taking the price of a car and dividing it by the number of lbs each hp has to push is a good way to judge the bang for the buck. |
Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member
Username: Corsa
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 11:02 am: | |
In sweden there's a fastes car competition every year. The track is the last curves of a racing track and x meters of the long straight. I'm not so interested so I don't know the details but for sure you need to perform in the curves to win this event.
Winner for many years have been a DeTomaso Pantera with a 800 hp engine. At a track day with Club Alfa Romeo Svezia that Pantera made 1.05.10. At least 5 well prepared old 160 hp Alfa Bertone Coup�s ran 1.03 and 1.04, street legal.
What I would like to say is that those Alfas had at least 800 hp in the chassis added to the 160 hp in the engine.
It's exactly the same with out welldesigned italian thoroughbred from Maranello. They have a lot hp's in the chassis. The 360 have had 5000 hours in the windtunnel. How many hp's is that worth on the track?
0-60 is of total unimportance. Lap times is what counts. 0-60 is just a marketing thing for those who can't make proper chassis. If you want a non-track test why don't you measure the total time of 60-120-60 ten times.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get 800 hp out of an 10 litre or a turbo engine. There's no challenge and it does not impress on me.
Ciao
Peter |
John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member
Username: Futureowner
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 3:17 am: | |
Except for the fact that Z06's have rear brake ducts, different rims, special badges, and are the only current C5s that are hardtops |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 156
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:20 pm: | |
magoo you also forgot to add that you cant tell the difference between the Z06 and the stock C5....another reason I love my Ferrari its distinct!! |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Junior Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 126
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:16 pm: | |
I don't have a Vette... Peace.... |
magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2297
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:03 pm: | |
John that is true on the track. But as you said you wouldn't trade your Ferrari for one because every vette looks alike and everybody has one. BRGDS, |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 155
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 10:51 pm: | |
Ernest...I agree with your statement if you were talking about older C4 generation vettes, but my god have you ridden in a Z06?? The old quality issues are gone it is a very solid car that doesnt rattle and creak like the old Vettes use to....plus it is a $45000 car that will hang with a 360 on the track in stock form! To me it is light years ahead of the RX7 or 300ZX in fit and finish as well as performance. I'd never trade my 348 for one but hell after test driving one for an hour if I had an extra $50000 burning a whole in my pocket and I wanted a street pace car I would buy a Z06 in a second |
billy zissis (89tr)
Junior Member
Username: 89tr
Post Number: 130
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 9:08 pm: | |
I have seen a video that kept up with the f40 on the twisties. The Elise in stock form is said to be one of the best if not best handling car in the world. It is true that cars are still on the heavy side and weight is the biggest problem in racing. Today's cars even the Ferrari are getting bigger and heavier. Ferrari should not give in to the masses appeal. If your ferrari does not fit a golf club bag do not take it golfing. Period. Miss the beautiful lines of the old Ferraris. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 304
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 7:46 pm: | |
I'd rather buy a used 300ZX, RX7, Supra, or NSX and mod it rather than buy a new Z06 or Viper. Sorry, but American cars just don't do it for me. Fit and finish and quality of materials is just plain horrible.
Ernesto |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2192
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 7:42 pm: | |
Two points here:
1) Yes the Elise does take the Vette in the twisties, but it's a flow blown friggin race car. What do you expect against a nearly or entirely stock, street sports car?
2) The RACING Elise gets its ass handed to it by the STREET Corvette.
I can't see how this is in any way a moral victory for the low power, low weight Elise. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 665
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 7:34 pm: | |
You probably could if you wanted to buy a used car and sink come cash into it, but for a new car there is nothing better. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2191
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 7:33 pm: | |
I totally agree with Edward. You can't find a better bang for the buck, I'm sorry, but it can't be done. Please try. |
John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member
Username: Futureowner
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 7:05 pm: | |
Not to be picky, but the 99-00 Hardtops had 345hp ;) I couldn't resist!
Anyway, that Lotus sure put the vette to shame in the twisties! I would have liked to see that Lotus hand a Viper its ass on a plate through those turns. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 984
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 6:07 pm: | |
I do not believe there is a car in the world that is a better value for the performance than a Z-06. |
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 73
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 6:05 pm: | |
Jason is right, cars are getting bigger and heavier as well as more HP. Take the 360, made of aluminum but they used most of the weight savings to make room for a golf bag. Should have made a 2000 lb. Dino sized car without the heavy luxury items and 400 HP. I'm getting an adrenalin rush just thinking about it!
Dave |
Jason (Jason)
New member
Username: Jason
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 4:58 pm: | |
You're correct, I read the title wrong. It's a C5 Vette, so we're looking at 350HP. |
John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member
Username: Futureowner
Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 4:19 pm: | |
Jason,
That Corvette is either a 99 or 2000 Hardtop. It is not a Z06 because there are no brake ducts like the 385hp and 405 hp Z06s have.
---John |
Tim N (Timn88)
Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 660
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 3:16 pm: | |
The next M5 is supposed to have 500hp and a V10 (i think), i cant wait. |
Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Junior Member
Username: Kennyh
Post Number: 189
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 3:08 pm: | |
In response to what Edward said:
Well, the people that can afford a new Ferrari are relatively wealthy- they should be able to afford the insurance. Power isn't everything, you guys all know that. If you want a fast car, get a ZO6... Ferrari's aren't all about power, but I do agree, they could spare some more. The next NSX is rumored to blow basically any Ferrari (in production that is) away... I am sure Ferrari will step up. |
Jason (Jason)
New member
Username: Jason
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 2:53 pm: | |
The problem with a lot of these cars is the weight, they're just getting too heavy. I just read the Lambo Murcielago road test in R&T and the first thing I noticed was it weighed 4020lbs! What I would rather see the manufacturers do is focus more on weight savings development. The real difficulty with that though is all the safety regulations on cars these days.
Here's a great video showing the benefits of low weight. 405HP Zo6 Vette vs. 180HP Lotus Elise on the Nurburgring. Watch how the Elise can catch up in the corners, amazing for a 225hp difference.
(warning: very large download 40MB)
http://www.smudo.com/smudo/bigdata/elise_vs_corvette.mpg |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 982
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
I think the high HP cars are eventually going to belong only to the wealthy as the masses will not be able to insure them. Look what is happening to the Camaro and Firebird. Great HP cars but too many people get killed and ticketed in them. Maybe the more wealthy and mature can handle the HP better. |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 2:24 pm: | |
New Ferrari 575MM has 515BHP - put on a Tubi, and some de-cat pipes and you're looking at ~ 540bhp.
That's shocking really.......More than an F50!!! |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:53 am: | |
It's gonna have to stop eventually. Insurance on a 500HP car can't exactly be low, I don't own one, but it would make sense to me that it would be high. I also laugh at how the same people that were bitching and moaning in the 60s and 70s about their parents 10mpg American boats for cars, are now of course driving 10mpg SUVs. Man we really have progressed in the last 40 years. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 659
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 11:03 am: | |
Ive also noticed that cars are becoming more and more powerful, and i like it. Now we have a hp war like in the 60's. Cars are also becoming more efficient, safer and all around nicer. I, for one, am not going to complain. I think ferrari wont lose too much sales because lots of people dont buy one because its the fastest car or the best value. |
Mark (Study)
Junior Member
Username: Study
Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 10:44 am: | |
I agree 300 HP has become Jr league maybe worth $80k ? The same topic is at NSX web site.
Ford's new GT40 for 2003 is 500hp and under $150k
Viper for 2003 is 500hp and under $150k
Looks like 400hp Vette is $50k price point
|
Phil S. (1989328gtb)
New member
Username: 1989328gtb
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 10:17 am: | |
Is it me or is 300 h.p. not enough anymore? SL55 at 460+ h.p. the new E55 will follow suit, the new Audi RS6 450 h.p. for only $80K.
I know a 4 door sedan is not a Ferrari, but the h.p. for dollar ratio makes my mouth water. Will Ferrari drastically increase h.p. on their future cars to separate themselves from the pack? The other option is to drop prices to match the others, ya right, like thats going to happen. |