| Author | Message | ||
| Gordon Monsen (Gmonsen)
New member Username: Gmonsen Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2003 |
The issue of depreciation is so complex, as many have said here. I know this thread is old, but wanted to add a few comments. The main one being that there is a lot of volatility in the demand for the 550. Its ib sine ways neither fish nor fowl. Its not a racer like the 360 and not a touring car like the 456. It is really more like a Daytona or 330GTC even. With all the new cars coming out that were mentioned, the demand is further aggravated. The prices today are not necessarily reflective of the long term 550 prices. They may drop as low as the 90's, but later recover to higher levels. Its hard to see them experiencing the drop the 456's have experienced. I am looking at a 550 right now as a car I can keep for several years and use as a daily driver in good weather instead of a BMW. I hesitate because it may not be up to the job from a reliability standpoint. If it can't serve this purpose then its not really for me and will drive me to the Bentley or Aston Vantage camp. But, I would happily drive a 550 every sunny day for the next 5 years and just keep the damn thing. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't want to prolong this thread on the issue of 550 prices, but did want to respond to Mark w.r.t. his query on whether the Black '98 550 no-reserve transaction went through. I was surfing Ferrari eBay when I noticed the car was relisted. In speaking with the seller, he indicated the highest bidder ended up not securing his finances, and then wanted to do a trade, rather then buy the car outright, which the seller was not interested in. Hopefully, the transaction will work a litte better this time around. Just FYI. Regards. | ||
| andrew diamond (Andrewiz)
New member Username: Andrewiz Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
First post here, so greetings to you all from the UK. Manu posted a link to a ferrari authorised dealer in the UK with a LHD, 35K miles 550 for sale at �59k/$95k. Others then suggested this may be a one-off, the bottom of the Bell Curve. Well, within the last 2 weeks I have test driven a RHD 97 550, 14k miles, silver/bordeaux, from an authorised dealer, asking �64k/�104k for it. The saleman told me he'd recently taken another 97 550 in part exchange on a 575, and passed it on in the trade for �50k/$80k. I asked him why such a low price - in his words, the mileage was too high for him to retail - 33k! I then saw the same car advertised in Sunday Times for �57.5K. I think it's entirely possible that 550s will settle around �50k/$80k, and elatively soon. My suspicion is that the UK/US markets are quite similar, and a contrast with the rest of Europe (now why does that sound familiar....), in that 8 cylinder cars depreciate less in % terms here and in the States. If you care to check prices in continental Europe, the 12 cylinder cars hold up much better than the 8s. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 877 Registered: 11-2001 |
many dealers have consignment cars for sale that they don't keep on the lot at all - so there's minimal carrying cost. if the car has an unreasonable price they can be polite to their customer and say "sure we'll take it on consignment! but why don't you keep it at home and enjoy it - demand is really low right now, so no sense in it just sitting in the showroom" or something like that. ralph - if you can't afford the depreciation, but a different car. 15% depreciation in one year is an eminently reasonable number. the markets aren't what they were, c'est la vie. the gt2 is a serious machine. i enjoyed my 996TT tremendously, but the AWD was part of what i didn't like about it. of course the gt2 won't fix turbo lag and e-gas and the other things that bugged me. doody. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2002 |
Greetings: Hi everyone. It has been about four - five months since I posted. I put a deposit on an X-50 T.T. with P-of N. Orlando back on 30 October 02. They gave me a hell of a deal off the MSRP back then. 10K off sticker for an inbound allocation car. The car was delivered the end of Dec 02 with scheduled delivery for me on Jan 03. Just before delivery in Dec, I happened to peek at the prices of the 01 and 02 T.T.'s. I was amazed at how much they lost. I figured that I would lose at least 15% in one year while putting at best 2K miles on the car. I know it is not an investment. I felt that was alot to lose in one year. At the end of Dec 02 I heard of a car confirmed for production in the USA called the GT-3. I immediately jumped ship and got in the GT-3 line at the dealership. Problem is that ( *** don't laugh ) I am # 8 in line. Which means that it ain't going to happen folks. The salesman is telling me P of North A.,is going to produce no more than 550 cars nationwide. He told me that includes production up to the end of 04. His allocation at the dealership was one car. And this is from a large dealership. I do not know the official production #'s for the GT-3. It is probably not to far off. You all have gotten my attention with your moaning and groaning about the prices of the 550's. I am going to make some calls the next few days and check out the market. Perhaps the shooting that is coming in the next few days will help even more ? Forget buying the car in Birmingham England. How about buying the car in Baghdad ? lol... I owe it to myself to look again. I just had such a bad experience looking at the Testarossa's, and Boxers. ( No problems with the cars in general ). It amounted to people not listing their cars correctly. I was not looking for a bargain at the time. Just a mint original low mile car for a fair price. We shall see. Sincerely Ralph | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2002 |
"For the dealer, if he has the space, the deal isn't so bad since he charges the individual seller a fee for placing the car on the lot." Are you sure dealerships get a fee for just putting the car on the lot. I though the fee was always associated with the sale of the car, in which case putting a consignment car at an unrealistic price on the lot doesn't make sense for two reasons: (1) the dealer loses a showroom spot to put one of HIS OWN cars on, and (2) he doesn't end up getting the fee from the sale, because the car is ridiculously priced. Regards. | ||
| Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
Junior Member Username: Ctanner Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2001 |
Remember that many of the cars on dealers lots are consignment cars, that is, owned by an individual, not the dealership. At times, it is the combination of the individual owner's desire for a good price plus the dealership's desire for the consignment commission that prices these cars out of the market. For the dealer, if he has the space, the deal isn't so bad since he charges the individual seller a fee for placing the car on the lot. | ||
| john (Johnwto)
Junior Member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2002 |
efwun, i think your experience with ferrari dealers is typical. i wanted to trade in my 360 for a 550. with or without the trade the dealer would not sell this 99 550 for even close to market value. i had bought two previous ferrari's from them and they still wanted 20K over what was reasonable. their reason? they didn't want to lose money on the car. now they have lost even more because this was 6 months ago. forget about college level economics, some of these dealers are simply out to lunch and will eventually pay the price | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2003 |
No, Dave, no hard feelings! My experience might be atypical; I've run into some hard headed dealers!! | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, I know the seller only in the context of a potential buyer, but I will certainly drop him a line in a bit to see if the sale was consummated smoothly. When I spoke with him on the phone, he indicated that he believes the range for this sort of car is $105K to $120K and he would be happy anywhere in there. I'm glad to see that he got close to the top end of the range. Regards. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 453 Registered: 1-2002 |
EFWUN, I was feeling guilty for giving you heat way back, but I just read Dennis's posts and now I feel less guilty. I hope no hard feelings. Dennis, In addition to the potential costs/losses you mentioned, car dealers are also faced with finite space. Every sq ft costs X dollars a year. Any car that sits actually incurs that cost. Anyway you look at it, hanging on to overpriced inventory is dumb, dumb, dumb! Like I said before, it's the fast track to bankruptcy. Best to all, Dave | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2001 |
FYI. The no reserve auction listed way below ended today at $118K. Ghostrider: if you know the fellow please let us know if the sale gets completed? | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 129 Registered: 2-2003 |
Actually, Dennis, I took lots of biology and lots of chem and physics!! I'm really not talking about stuff that makes sense, I'm talking about stubborn people who can afford to hang onto a depreciating asset out of sheer pig-headedness! I'm also speaking from the experience of chasing down a 550! You're probably right, but I don't see 550 prices in the '80s that soon, unless we're talking about cars with mileage and stories. Your erudition is appreciated, but I just diaagree! | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2003 |
EFWun replied: >Dennis, we're not talking about widgets, but rather Ferraris, a specialty item if there ever was one. I meant, the fact that there are dealers who insist on a certain price, and have owners (see, e.g., F of LI) that don't need no steeenking floor plan is like a parachute as prices fall. I think time will prove you wrong, but who really cares? ______________ EFWun, I made my post in response to your comment regarding the ability of Ferrari dealers to essentially slow down the drop in value of modern production Ferraris (and more specifically, your off-hand comment about "Basic economics, for those of us who actually went to university and got an education."). Two points. Since we're talking about basic, college-level of economics, surely you know that even dealers that don't have to floor-plan cars (i.e., pay finance charges) nevertheless incur a cost of committing that capital (like an opportunity cost; if I spend $1m of my money to hold inventory instead of investing it in money market funds, I am losing out on that potential return). But even though I'm not paying interest on a floor-plan finance deal, it's still an economic cost -- basic university level economics (or finance). If I'm a dealer, I might choose to do so, if my return on my $1m in inventory is expected to be higher than my return might be with money market funds. Fair enough. But in making that calculation, I have to have good knowledge of what current market valuations are, and the ability to project or extrapolate current trends into the future. Which leads to me to point two: commoditization. Yes, of course, Ferraris aren't commodities. But a 355 or 550 isn't a 250 GTO or a California Spider. There are thousands of 355s and 550s out there. So, not a commodity (each car is unique, after all, with different maintenance, mileage, color, etc.), but not unique either. So, let's say you're a dealer. Or even Ferrari of Long Island. If, say, 550 prices, on average, are (to be arbitrary) 15% lower today than they were 12 months ago, and 30% lower than what they were 24 months ago, it might not be a bad calculation to extrapolate that prices will be somewhat lower in 12 months from NOW. How much lower? Let's say, for fun, 10%. Let's say I bought a used 550 today from a customer for $90k, and wanted to sell it for $120k. No one is knocking down my door to buy it at that price, but I know if I took it to Manheim to a high-line auction, I could easily move it for $92k. And I might be able to sell it to a retail customer quickly if I sold it for $100k. Now, given that I've calculated that prices on this model will drop by 10% in 12 months, so that I can only get $82,800 for it at Manheim in a year, I need to figure out at what price I should sell the car today. It's costing me money to keep the car in inventory (see point one above). Do I sell it for $100k today and take my easy $10k profit? Or do I wait to see if I can sell it for $115k or $120k instead? If I'm stubborn, and hang onto my $120k asking price, but don't get any takers, what happens 12 months from now? If I sell it at Manheim, I'm out $7,300, plus the cost of keeping the car in inventory for a year. If I sell it at retail for $90k ($100k-10%), I'm even on the car, but I've lost money because my investment has sat for a year without earning anything. Anyway you look at it, I lose. Even if Ferraris aren't commodities. Plug in any numbers or percentages you want into my scenario, EFWun: when you have a market where asset values are decreasing -- and for modern production Ferraris, don't kid yourself, everything IS decreasing in value -- ANY dealer, no matter how wealthy, will lose money if it just sits on those depreciating assets. *** As for your comment suggesting that I "lighten up": I totally agree with you that these are just CARS, people, and they're meant to be driven and enjoyed. I put 19k miles on my most recent Ferrari in the span of 18 months, including a lot of track time and lots of weekend getaways. But don't ignore basic economics -- after all, you did take it in university.... :-) vty, --Dennis | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2003 |
In response to Nicole's question about the relative value of Canadian v. American cars, I wrote: "Nicole, generally speaking, for late model Ferraris, there isn't that much of a difference. Conversion costs are nearly negligible, so cars do move across the border. For once, the strong dollar (yes, even though the Canadian dollar is at a 2 year high) doesn't benefit us south of the border that much. " EFWun replied, "Also, gee, Dennis, thanks for that off hand remark about Canadian cars. Between conversion and DUTY, I'm glad you think $8,500 added to the price of a $150,000 car is 'negligible.'" ____________________ Actually, EFWun, go back and reread what I wrote. I didn't mention customs duty; what I said was "nearly neglible" was the CONVERSION COST. Which it is. The US government requires that the car to be imported must meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). FMVSS standards are basically grouped into two categories, US DOT and US EPA standards (each set at the year of manufacture). Since EWFun used a $150k car as his example, let's assume that we're talking a relatively recent model. Most Canadian Ferraris are nearly compliant already. Typically, only a speedometer graduated in MPH is needed. You'll also need a letter from FNA to indicate that the car complies with US FMVSS standards. I dunno how much an MPH speedo might cost, but if it's really expensive, you can just add a mask to the face of the current speedo (any good speedo shop can do this). So, compared to the $25k conversion cost for importing a car from Europe, the conversion cost for importing one from Canada is MUCH cheaper. Nearly neglible, I say. So what about the duty, then? Even though I didn't say that it was "neglible", it really is relatively cheap. The first $1000 is taxed at 4%, while the remaining balance is taxed at 2.5%. So, a $150,000 US car would be charged a $3,765 US duty fee to import. Which is more than what it would cost me in sales tax (I live in Massachusetts) -- sorry, EFWun, I didn't mention that either. Or license and registration fees. And the cost to ship the car south (or the cost of gas if you drive it over the border). So where do you get $8,500? vty, --Dennis | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 613 Registered: 1-2002 |
My 2 cents. The 550, by virtue, appealed to a different demographic, namely those that could drop 200k+ on a weekend/fun car. Conversly, the 360, w/ a lower price tag, and an altogether different intent, appealed, by circumstance, to a demographic of dot com, market boom, etc buyers that, previous to the market boom, couldn't carry the burdon of a 100k + car, i.e. see also the flood of 996TT's. As demand wanned, the market value was depressed accordingly. Further, on account of the excess 360's on the road, the car became more visible, and by convention became tied to the marque; it's simply more visible than the 550, i.e. the 360 stands out, while the 550 exudes a dapper charm; furthermore, seeing a 360 is a lot more likely than a 550, simply by virtue of the numbers. Since that flurry both 360 and, more noticably, 550 prices have begun to 'settle', the 550 more markedly so. The impression that you get 'more car for the money' in my mind stems from the value perspective; at 120k a '00 550 is an amazing deal in perspective to the 200k+ sticker. Driving, the cars are polar opposites, and, in my mind, cannot be compared as both will offer distinct driving experiences. If you ask me, get the 550 now, and the 360 later. | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 151 Registered: 2-2001 |
Except for necessities,food,water, medicine, etc, 99% of our purchase decisions are based on 3 reasons---PRIDE,ENVY or GREED. As an example, John Doe will buy a new car because either his neighbor just bought one and now John Doe is ENVIOUS, or he was offered a deal he couldn't pass up (GREED)etc, etc. PRIDE, ENVY, GREED is true for any purchase whether it's a house, clothes, vacations, tools etc. I bought my Ferrari because of PRIDE and probably a little ENVY thrown in. I might buy a 550 because the prices are so low--GREED. Anyway I'm off on a tangent here. Psychology is my business and the psychology of PRIDE,ENVY, and GREED can be facinating. | ||
| john (Johnwto)
Junior Member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2002 |
jeff i would choose the enzo and i couldn't care less who see's me in my 360. very few people even know i have one ....i really did buy it for me and me alone | ||
| john (Johnwto)
Junior Member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2002 |
jeff i would chose the enzo and i couldn't care less who see's me in my 360. very few people even know i have one ....i really did buy it for me and me alone | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 96 Registered: 9-2002 |
I guess everyone has their own reasons for buying a ferrari and although crash protection was not a factor for me, I can see why it is to some. One thing I have a hard time accepting is that quite a few people say they buy a ferrari for themselves and not to impress anyone, or they receive too much attention.It doesn't matter what color it is, it is still making a statement for you. No matter how many times I hear it, I still think it is BS. That is like saying that I have this 20k rolex but I bought it for me because it keeps exceptional time!I would bet that given the option of a free Enzo or a free 550 or 360 with the catch being that if you choose the Enzo, you could never let anyone ever see it or know you had it no one would take the Enzo. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2003 |
I didn't buy my 550 to impress anyone, quite frankly. In fact, my first 355 was giallo modena, and my second was rosso corsa, and I found them too attention-getting. I got the 550 (in Blu Nart) because of the V-12, the appearance, and the power. I find it substantially quicker than the 360 over 60mph, a finding borne out by C & D, to wit: 360, 0-150 28+, 550 0-150, 23. Impressing anyone is not my interest, particularly because these cars (all of them) sometimes draw the wrong kind of attention. Finally, the 550 seems to offer more passenger protection than the lighter 360 or 355, not because of weight, but rather because of structure, front engine, and height. Important to me. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2002 |
Personally, I am in the under 35 market and to me if I was going for a coupe, I would consider either one but I definately prefer the spider. I think it is a psychological thing to know that the original sales price was over 200k on the 550, but when it comes down to it,performance wise, I think that is way too high.Everyone keeps talking about how much "more" of a car you get with the 550 but the numbers don't support this. (except the sales price numbers). The idea of having the more exclusive of the two ferraris may be appealing to some, but most people that you show your ferrari off to are people that have no idea that a 550 costs more new than a 360 anyway. I would say that if guessing, most people would think the 360 is the more exclusive because of the racier looks.I think the 550 may be the choice for people to impress their ferrari having friends and the 360 impresses the general public.I would be interested to see a 550 spider that actually had a fully functional top and how that would effect the market. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 784 Registered: 12-2001 |
Manu- not really disagreeing, but i will tell you, the preference among Gen X'er and younger for the boy racer is not just a convenient excuse, financially:- one friend, thirty-something, very into motorsports, bikes, etc. finds the Modena hands down, far more interesting than the 550 (and he has driven mine). Face it, we are old men.... | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 669 Registered: 2-2002 |
>>>>>>>>>Seems like, historically, only older buyers could afford the V-12s, and that leads to a perception of the 550 as an "old man's" car. Nothing could be further from the truth, as those of us who have them will attest. <<<<<<<<<<< AND THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT. The 550 is not an old mans car - in a typical economic environment only financially-insulated *wealthy* buyers could afford them. But here is where things get wierd. The boys in IB and the trading floor are getting a whooping right now so they're sticking with their more showy entry level Ferraris - had they still been making money, they would have been trading out of 355s/360s and into V12s - 550 prices would have held firm and the ENDLESS 360s out there would have plumeted - as it is they prefer a *supposedly* more *sporty* V8 Ferrari while times are tough. Somewhat peverse but true (IMO). | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2002 |
"are you stuffy..." only when I have the flu ! Jake | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1940 Registered: 9-2001 |
I had a 1998 Viper GTS. I used it as my daily driver and put over 25k miles on it in 1 1/2 years. It was a blast to drive. But, it was no Ferrari. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2003 |
Uh oh, I find myself agreeing with Frank!! Lusted over the Boxer for years as a kid!! Time to go home and have dinner; if I'm agreeing with Frank, I must be hypoglycemic!! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 126 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ah, but are you "stuffy?" I've caught myself sidling past the new Viper in the Dodge joint near here, but it felt too much like an infidelity in the making!! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1937 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think the 550/575 is the best looking car to come from Ferrari in years. At least since the Boxer(of which I'm fond of) and mayby since the Daytona. | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2002 |
EFWUN---I have never really warmed up to the styling of the Viper, from the day I bought it; It just is a beast when you nail it ( I've installed a few hi-po mods) and that's what gets my old juices flowing. Jake | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ah, Jake, you got me. I just happen to think the 550 is gorgeous, like an XKR with balls and Italian flair. I'm an idiot who sits in my garage with my morning coffee staring at the damn thing!! (nothing else to do with it until Spring really comes!!) | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2002 |
EFWUN, I AM an old man and I like the 550/575 ! ! Regards, Jake | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 124 Registered: 2-2003 |
On the other hand, though, you can't really expect a Pininfarina design to hold its own against that gorgeous Viper, or that Shelby, huh? | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2003 |
Oh, Jake, that one hurt real bad!! I guess those of us who believe the 550 is a timeless classic (including Paul Frere, Mario Andretti, Phil Hill etc) will have to change our opinions! | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2002 |
I agree with Ninja-eli, the 550/575 does have the looks of a kind of "stuffy old man's car" | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 114 Registered: 2-2003 |
True, Doody, may be like that '00 FNA photo car that burnt its left rear quarter. Fixed beautifully, but once its history was out, the value dropped by $30K. I understand, Dave; my particular opinion is that the 550 is just much more car for the money than the 360 (which is also a magnificent car). Seems like, historically, only older buyers could afford the V-12s, and that leads to a perception of the 550 as an "old man's" car. Nothing could be further from the truth, as those of us who have them will attest. Finally, remember that there's about $10K per model year, so I'd expect there to be a $40K'ish difference between clean, no stories '97s and clean no stories '01s when the dust settles. Drive them, enjoy them for the magnificent, passionate machine they are, and if you want an investment, buy T-bills. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 872 Registered: 11-2001 |
at the risk of extending this thread ad infinitum, it is worthwhile to note that this $95K 02/1997 550 is, at 35K miles, the highest mileage 550 i've ever seen for sale. some outfit in CA has a 33K miles car they're asking 128.5 on. the car at MHT was originally delivered in Germany and then brought to the UK. valuations are always on a bell curve. that means there are always some cars at the lowest end of the curve and always some cars at the highest end of the curve. you can't pick a single car like this and say "that's the market". assuming everything is okay with this car, it is a sweet deal for sure. remember though the ultra-cheap 355 we were discussing that had had major accident service. digging up the data on this particular car may prove informative vis-a-vis its pricing. doody. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 871 Registered: 11-2001 |
fwiw, the former owner of my 550 apparently traded it on a new 360. doody. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2002 |
Quote: Incidentally, Ross, if you are interested at buying anytime soon, there is a 550 LHD at MHT Ferrari authorised dealers with all benefits, at, wait for it, �59K! That is less than $100K US. Have a look at their website www.mhtferrari.co.uk. Yikes!! In my favorite color too. What a beautiful looking machine. Regards. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 452 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dennis, Thank for seconding my point. Efwun, Getting back to your original question here are a couple of thoughts: About 1 year ago I asked the owner of Ferrari of Denver what the deal was on 550 prices. His initial reaction was "I wish I knew" as he looked at a couple of examples they had already lowered the price on twice. After a little thought, he went on to say he thought it was because the 360 really struck a chord and a lot of 97-98 550 owners wanted one. My 2nd point is that if I was in the market for a late model Fcar and had a budget of 140K I would most likely opt for a 360, but I would certainly try out a 550 because I have only heard good things about how they drive. Clearly buyers are, in fact, mostly opting for a 360. Dave | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 765 Registered: 3-2002 |
manu, i bought my 512tr at the price its currently worth, 3 years ago. admittedly i bought it under market value at the time; but i am not worried about depreciation since i never intend to sell it. but your point about 550 price drops impacting on lesser models is dead on - and it will happen. eli, thanks for demonstrating my point. that 550 price is $94.4k. and that is a dealer; what price did the individual have to sell it to him for? i would get a 550 soon if i had a place to park it and if i ever got to drive a car - i spend most of my motorized life on a scooter these days since i actually want to commute faster than 5mph! | ||
| eli (ali) Latif (Ninja_eli)
New member Username: Ninja_eli Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think WMHart is right. I think the 550 does not have as many admirers as do the more sporty looking cars. Also, there are/were more "cheaper end" Ferrari buyers than those who would go for the 550. It also has an old man's car image about it, so the sub 35yrs old market would probably be looking at an 8cylinder. Incidentally, Ross, if you are interested at buying anytime soon, there is a 550 LHD at MHT Ferrari authorised dealers with all benefits, at, wait for it, �59K! That is less than $100K US. Have a look at their website www.mhtferrari.co.uk. I personally would have moved to one only for the sheer value that they represent. I couldn't resolve my dislike of its looks (not to say I think it is ugly, I don't. I just don't LOVE it enough to make it mine). I think Manu has a good point here that if the price drops enough, then there are those who will want the car JUST because of the value it represents. That in itself will stop the drop any further. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1925 Registered: 9-2001 |
yet another reason to drive your Ferrari rather than let it just sit in the garage. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 841 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tell me about it. I have watched mine depreciate by 100K in less than 3 years. Who'd a thunk it back then? | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 665 Registered: 2-2002 |
Point taken Ross - however mate - if that's how low 550s are going to go then, as an example, how much does your 512TR become worth.... Prices are falling faster than mileage is accumulating.... to me, that indicates the end is nigh.. common sense will prevail - people will trade out of older 12's and even 355s etc.... My mate fits exactly the demographic WM HART profiled - 550s are excellent value and it's this realisation which I think will hold values up in the next few months regardless of the economy (within reason). | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 764 Registered: 3-2002 |
manu, my most pessimistic price forecast was specifically focused on individuals and not dealers. in the last 6 months we have already seen '97 lhd 550's in good shape offered by individuals in the sunday times for �65, which at the time was about $100k; so what makes you think we won't see that same category of car at a lower price in the next 9 months? | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 664 Registered: 2-2002 |
WMhart- you have solid argument and in actual fact I do "partially" agree with you  - But I'm still confused - these "boy racers" are typically the people LEAST financially insulated from economic downturns - people in investment banking/IT/consulting etc.... these guys may not want a Maranello now, but my point is that they never wanted one in the first place - through a combination of financial constraints and their "boy racer" tastes - so I can't figure out why 550 prices should *continue* to drop - unless of course that the other (typically wealthier, older, more financially insulated V12-buyer,) is being replaced by this younger demographic that just doesn't fancy 550s.... Watch this space - when the 550 was in development - everyone was moaning about the TR - too wide, too noisy, over the top styling... cue Ferrari 550. Now it appears "flash is back" - I prepared to bet the next V12 flagship will be as discreet as a kick in the face. Mind you, tastes may change again. When the good times are rolling and you can buy 2,3,4 Ferraris you can get one which needn't be massively "extroverted" - perhaps when times are tough people don't want such a "superflous" Ferrari. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2003 |
Also, gee, Dennis, thanks for that off hand remark about Canadian cars. Between conversion and DUTY, I'm glad you think $8,500 added to the price of a $150,000 car is "negligible." | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dennis, we're not talking about widgets, but rather Ferraris, a specialty item if there ever was one. I meant, the fact that there are dealers who insist on a certain price, and have owners (see, e.g., F of LI) that don't need no steeenking floor plan is like a parachute as prices fall. I think time will prove you wrong, but who really cares? These cars are NOT investments, but rather passionate expressions in metal that were meant to be enjoyed. You remind me of that professor in "Back to School!" Lighten up! | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2003 |
Nicole, generally speaking, for late model Ferraris, there isn't that much of a difference. Conversion costs are nearly negligible, so cars do move across the border. For once, the strong dollar (yes, even though the Canadian dollar is at a 2 year high) doesn't benefit us south of the border that much. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Nicole Klein (Niki355)
New member Username: Niki355 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
What is the concensus on Canadian cars?? | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2003 |
A few straightforward points, gentlemen: 2. Prices in the European market really shouldn't be compared directly to the US market. Generally, prices on the Continent are significantly cheaper than they are in the British Isles. And lots cheaper than in the US. If you really want a bargain, you can indeed buy a car in Europe and import it, and at the end of the day, to do the job right, it'll run you from $15k-$25k. You can STILL save a lot of money, though. But your resale value will be less. Many dealers (non offical Ferrari dealers, as they won't touch gray market cars) use 10-15% difference as a rule of thumb. As a rule of general application, IMHO, take the US selling prices for any given model and whack AT LEAST 25% off for selling prices in Germany, CH or France. If anyone doubts this, check out the Sports Car Market auction results for European auctions over the last year... LOTS of things like Testarossa going for ~$35k in Europe. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2003 |
A few straightforward points, gentlemen: 1. "Quite a few dealers are resistant to selling cars, even when the market has clearly passed them by, and that slows the descent somewhat. Basic economics, for those of us who actually went to university and got an education." -- How is that basic economics? Any seller of widgets that carries an inventory has a compelling need to sell that inventory as fast as possible if the value thereof is depreciating. If the value of your inventory is dropping, what possible interest would the seller have in holding onto it? Is the seller hoping that prices for the inventory will INCREASE at some point in the future? And don't forget, the seller has to incur financing charges for that inventory (or opportunity cost for the capital). This is true whether we're talking about Ferraris or any other products. And, aside from specialty cars like the Enzo, which regular production Ferraris have actually gone UP in price in the used car market in the past decade? I can't think of any. Over the last few years, Mondials have fallen to below $20k, 308i's have fallen to just about there, 308qv's to below $30k, 328s to below $35k, TRs to below $40k, 348s to below $45k, and 512TR's and 355s to below $75k. Of course, there are many examples that sell for above those prices, but it's not that tough to find pretty good examples actually SELLING at those prices. Aside from the initial pop that new models get (e.g., 360 Spiders), due to improper pricing at initial sale (thanks to governance from FNA), EVERY regular-production Ferrari made in the last 25 years has depreciated in value, since the boom-boom times of the late 80's. So, unless a dealer really thinks that the bubble in Ferrari values will reappear come 2004 (and what would he be smoking?), why would any dealer want to sit on depreciating stock? And pay financing charges on them? vty, --Dennis | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2002 |
Quote: ...given the amount of people with silly money on LI, they seem to move cars regardless...seems these guys can afford to wait for Mr. Right...I'm not suggesting that this is sound retail economics, but it seems to be a fact of Ferrari life... This is very true EFWUN. The lag in reality between asking price and market price is not only for Ferrari sellers, but for many other items in our economy, such as real-estate. As a banker, I know that companies up for sale (or early-stage companies seeking seed capital) continue to have a hard time coming to terms with the realities of the marketplace. The other good point that you raise is that you will always have people will "silly money;" individuals who are unfazed by the overall economic cycle, and who continue to buy Ferrari's at inflated prices. I'm sure most Ferrari dealers are praying for as many of these guys as they can get. I do agree with the point that has been raised in this thread, though, that intensified competition in the high-end market will mean that these guys now have a lot more cars vying for their attention. Regards. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2003 |
Tenney, I agree the car is too quiet when stock. Further, the Tubi everyone puts on does little to release those "Daytona-esque" noises. Eliminating the central tunnel muffler with a venturi crossover, and using Tubi's "pipe-only" rear sections produces a car that sounds even nicer than the Daytona. Unfortunately, I'll probably have to put all the stock stuff back on if I ever want to sell the thing, because the "gentlemen" who buy these cars are NOT boy racers. Ah well. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2003 |
DaveGTB; I'm only speaking about the dealerships I've had experience with, and suggesting that Ferrari retail sales aren't the same as even Porsche or Mercedes retail sales. During the five months I researched my 550 purchase (and my 355B sale), I found several dealers who essentially wouldn't budge on prices that didn't seem realistic in a buyer's market. FofLI were highly resistant (although VERY honest, Gianni actually pulled a car off his floor when he found out the history wasn't as represented) and, given the amount of people with silly money on LI, they seem to move cars regardless. FofAtlanta similarly had over priced cars and wouldn't budge. Several others also refused to consider offers more in line with the market. Seems these guys can afford to wait for Mr. Right, unlike a Porsche dealer blowing out a floor-planned Turbo X-50. I'm not suggesting that this is sound retail economics, but it seems to be a fact of Ferrari life, leading me to believe that Ferrari retail sales don't really mirror other makes. Again, I didn't buy it in the hope that it would remain a $180K car. I bought it because I love the V-12, think it is singularly gorgeous, and I love spinning the Pirellis in third gear!! I think it is a vastly underrated vehicle because most owners don't ever romp on it, and because most testers can't really figure out the shift gate due to lack of experience. Succinctly, I'm in love with it! | ||
| ken rentiers (Rentiers)
Junior Member Username: Rentiers Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2003 |
It's my understanding that Ferrari requires dealers to sell all new production at MSRP, the markups come later. Prices are simply a function of supply and demand. Factor in depreciation and the current economy and there you are. As for dealer resistance to selling cars - even Ferrari dealers utilize floorplans: it can cost $1,000 or more a month to keep a car on the floor. 360 (15): $151,280 (6% depreciation) 550 (4): $148,744 (27% depreciation) 456 (3): $126,300 (38% depreciation) These prices are nuts. The bargain right now is the 456, you can pick up one in decent shape for 85K tops, perhaps less. A 550 will be a 100 K car within the year. 360s are not immune; once the pipeline fills it will depreciate just like everything else. Just buy what you like and drive it; it's a car. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2001 |
A lot of the appeal of Ferrari is how well the car delivers on a visceral level. Perhaps if the 550 made Daytona-like mechanical/exhaust noises (or even 355/360) in addition to its already stout performance, the demand might be greater. Further, some (myself not included) never warmed to the styling. This may clip some of the appeal, as well. For those shopping a Ferrari purely for performance/functionality, 550's the number one bargain, IMO. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1913 Registered: 9-2001 |
I see the prices of used Ferraris dropping another 25% or so before they get better. When I commented to the GM at FOA that I saw a almost new TR sell for $36k, his response was "..how many do you want for that price..." There are also a lot of leased 550s and 360s being repossessed because their owners can no longer afford the $3k per month lease payment. The old supply and demand thing takes over from there. I see prices getting much lower before they stabilize. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2002 |
A well thought out argument Norman. I do agree that there has to be a reasonable "bottom" somewhere, and like you, think it's somewhere in the $100-$110 range (after reading additional comments, I've slightly adjusted my earlier range). For those of you who want to test the theory, here is a link to a NO RESERVE auction for a 1998 550 with 16K miles. I spoke with the owner (private seller) who seems to be a real nice guy. Car has had magenesium lug-nut recall and (I think) all the other TSB's done as well. No affiliation with the seller -- just think he's a nice guy, and would like to see him get a reasonable price. If only I didn't have to deal with the complications of moving soon!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2406150220 Regards. PS -- I asked the seller if he trolls FerrariChat.com and he said he doesn't, so it's not one of us that's giving this bad boy up. | ||
| Norman (Storminnormin)
Junior Member Username: Storminnormin Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2002 |
Perhaps another way to view this issue is by observing the market for all the regular production 2-seater ferraris for the past 20 plus years. The 8-cylinders seem to have established a relatively stable hierarchy: 308/328 at 20-40k, 328 at 40-60k, 348 at 50-80k+, 355 at 85-135k. The 12 cylinders have done the same: Testarossa at 45-80k, 512TR at around 100k, 512M (a very limited production of 75 US cars which is responsible for its higher value) at around 150k, 550 Maranello at 135-180k. Unlike stocks, I don't think Ferrari's will go to zero, or close to it even. The older cars seem to have all hit a bottom plateau in their depreciation curves, and it would seem quite unlikely that the newer models will depreciate to a lower price than their older cousins. Meaning, all things being equal, it is unlikely a 355 will be cheaper on the retail market than a 328. Along the same lines, I doubt a 550 will drop below a 512TR. So, as long as Testarossa's don't hit 20k, the Testarossa will prop up the 512TR which will prop up the 550 which will prop up the 575. 355's and 550's haven't fully reached a stable bottom yet, but are pretty close, I think. I suspect that, even if the economy continues to tank for a few more years, and even with all the hot new cars from Bentley et al coming on the market, good condition US model 550's will not fall below a bottom of around 100k. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 450 Registered: 1-2002 |
Efwun, I didn't mean you are an ignorant person, but your statement revealed you don't understand retail business very well, especially selling used items in a dynamic marketplace. 30 years of competing in this type of marketplace has taught me that having stale, overpriced merchandise is the fast track to bankruptcy. It may be that some authorized Fcar dealers can subsidize their failing used car sales with the new car sales, but even that can't go on too long. You can only make money on turnover which necessitates selling at market value and using the money to buy something you can make money on. It is also never good to have potential customers come in a store and gag on the prices. This principal holds for both dollar stores and exotic car dealers. Eventually, every late model Fcar owner who has to sell will get it done and then you are left with owners who will not sell below a certain level. That's when prices will stabilize and, perhaps, rebound a little. Dealers, however, fall into the "have to sell" camp. It is also probably the case that there are buyers for 550's at 125K but they are waiting to see if they reach 100K. Dave | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 780 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yeah, but Manu, what you aren't taking account of is the appeal of the 8 cyl. cars to alot of younger buyers in the market, which is why i think that 355 and 360 prices are withstanding the eco-dip better than the 550.Saying that the 550 is "more car" doesn't necessarily answer the appeal for a "boy racer." And, if the Maranello market is now competing with uber Benz's and the forthcoming Bentley, i don't see the Ferrari winning that battle in the market. Alot of GT buyers will opt for a slushbox and airconditioned seats over a stick and higher level of performance. (And, those buyers won't necessarily want an older model used car, like a 550, which is long in the tooth by marketing standards). Granted the 575M answers some of these issues, but the price differential is huge. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 663 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ross, I personally do not see 550s at the kind of levels you are talking about namely $80k.... primarily becuase: a) why sell a 550 at loss (which it would be at the level you're predicting) when you can sell any one of the hundreds of the 360s on your forecourt.. EVEN after heavily discounting UK retail prices on 360s, dealers will STILL have some margin - they will NOT on a Ferrari 550M sold for $80,000.... b) linked to the point above - there are just sooo many 360Ms for sale - dealers are going to be more willing to discount these to get inventory moving. Given that times are desperate - which they are. c) If a 550M drops to $80K - then where do used, F355, 512TR/M and 456 prices go? Pick up a 512TR for $45,000???? I think not..... 550s CAN only fall so far. Despite the economic climate there are a helluva lot of people out there that realise that they can have a 550 for little over 355 GTB money and they're making the switch to V12 - THERE IS sufficient support in this market. None of this takes away from the fact the 550 is probably the most "special" Ferrari that is currently in production (don't include the Enzo). | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 761 Registered: 3-2002 |
john, you have hit on my other favorite reason why 550 prices are still due for a drop - lots of competition. aston martin vantage and vanquish, sl55, cl55, cl65, bentley, and i'll go ahead and throw in bmw z8, maserati etc. just too many damn cars out there that are today between about $100-150k. they can't all stay there, and the 6 year old ones will drop a little sooner than the newer models. efwun, i am not trying to rain on your party. i genuinely hope you drive your 550 every day with a huge smile on your face; and when they get to $80k where i can afford one i'll join you. | ||
| John Lee (Gjockey)
New member Username: Gjockey Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2002 |
This depriciation thing is odd to experience as a buyer and seller. Have gotten hit selling cars, but also have benefitted as a recent buyer of an '01 CL600. I guess in the end, it's all a wash, just try to enjoy what you have. --- John The Bentley thing is interesting to me because I'm curious where the buyers for the car are going to come from. It's hard to imagine just dropping 2-3K of these cars in the U.S. at $150K and not causing pain up and down the exotic car spectrum. --- John | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 90 Registered: 2-2003 |
John, the dynamic was that most of these people realized that the cars were depreciating but they were 2 price levels slow in adapting. I finally decided that I would just get the best car I could, with a nearly full warranty. When my car appeared at Miller for $60K off sticker plus tax, I jumped on it, and have no regrets. I'm betting on $110K with 25K miles in 4 years; remember, its a very late '01. Besides, as I stated, I didn't buy it with the idea of selling it; it is a fantastic car, and what's the worst that can happen? I'll have to drive a 550 Maranello for several years. Poor me!! As to the Bentley, I'm not sure you can really compare, except for those buyers who are purchasing status, rather than a unique automotive experience. Similarly with Aston Martin. Ferrari is, and hopefully will remain, unique. | ||
| John Lee (Gjockey)
New member Username: Gjockey Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2002 |
efwun, Something tells me if you lowered your original offer amount by $20K and called the same people up, you'd be able to get a sale at this time. It takes time for reality to set in, and I think it's finally settling in. 2 years ago, it was hard to value a 550 because it was so singular... what else could you really compare it to? Was it worth 200K at the time, sure why not? Fast forward 2 years and it's all different. Being a 500 HP car is not unique now and you actually have a car like a 2003 CL55 that you can throw up there in the 500 HP uber touring coupe class for comparisons sake. At least there is an option now for another 500 HP coupe when before there was no other option. A much bigger problem looming on the horizon is the Bentley GT Coupe. The Bentley's performance stats look imposing, it's comfort levels look to be top notch. Now you got a car coming that looks much more comparable in the prestige coupe class. Ferrari people will always be Ferrari people, but as the recent depriciation of thses cars should let you know... there were a lot of buyers of these cars that were not "Ferrari" people... and those are the buyers you need to stay with the brand to keep prices from falling to more correct values. I think Bentley is planning on selling several thousand of these GT coupes in the first year model run at $150K plus and they are projecting 75% of the buyers to be new to the Bentley brand. I think the effect it could have on the 550 is dramatic, especially since it is priced at the 150K point. --- John | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 779 Registered: 12-2001 |
Dunno. No science here as far as i see it. MB's, Porsches, and the like, typically start at much lower prices (special tuner models excepted) and there is more of a market for a used sports car in the 65-80k $ price range than in the used supercar price range. There is also the perception of the ferrari as a "special" (read: expensive) car when it comes to first time buyers. Thus, i think the resale market for an overpowered 12 cyl. GT is less than the boulevardier/average MB/Porsche buyer. (Not trashing P cars here: i respect them and their following, but there are alot more of them, and alot of people who buy them don't have to make the financial or maintenance commitment that they do for a ferrari). Just my opinion though, not an empirical study. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm not sure about nosediving, Wm. You may have more experience than I do, but one of the issues ross raises is sort of inapposite to this case. How many people buy a $200K+ car and then "have" to sell it? I made an offer on a couple of cars, and the owners simply wanted more and took the cars off the market. I eventually paid more for a super low mile car. I have to believe that the 550 will depreciate less than expensive MB's, Porsches and the like, and those cars currently command about 50% on a 5 year residual. That would put an '01 550 at about $110K in 2006. (God willing and some terrorist doesn't turn Alpine, New Jersey into Atlantic Ocean waterfront property) | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 778 Registered: 12-2001 |
If you take a look at the recent FML, you will see averages of 135k $. (Ferrari of Atlanta seems to be a perennial exception with prices way out of line). FML is probably above the actual trading prices. I won't pretend to predict where prices will go on the 550, but i don't think its comparable to the 355, which, as a function of its original purchase price, still seems to be holding its value. The 550 is not a "first-timer's" ferrari, and i would think alot of casual ferrari buyers would want the looks, size and appeal of the 355 spyder. I love the 550, as many of you know, but i would bet it will continue to nosedive, particularly with gas prices going north, and the perceived cost of maintenance associated with a 12cyl car. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1036 Registered: 5-2002 |
under 100k by Fall is most likely.80 k is a push but with a war and no recovery in sight not 100% out of the question. Some of The 355's are down in the 70's and everyone said it wouldnt happen. These cars depriciate. And Dupont is a very overpriced outlet. Everything in there is top dollar or then some. It's a wish book for sellers. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 757 Registered: 3-2002 |
doody/efwun, yes i am probably overly optimistic regarding usa car prices (you can always hope though!). but i do think that my point hinges more on those that have to sell, not those who don't need the money and don't care what depreciation they suffer. mark is an example; he has a price idea, if he gets it he moves if he doesn't he waits. but what if there is another guy out there who can't wait....he will hit the bid, whether that is an individual or a dealer. in mark's case, i bet the best price he could get from the dealer on a straight buy (no trade-in), would probably not be over $95k. any dealers lurking in here want to comment on what price they would pay for mark's car? | ||
| Jason (Jason)
New member Username: Jason Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2001 |
Just out of curiosity I went to Dupont's website and took average asking prices for MY1999 360, 456 and 550s: 360 (15): $151,280 (6% depreciation) 550 (4): $148,744 (27% depreciation) 456 (3): $126,300 (38% depreciation) | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2003 |
I agree, with the caveat that these cars are simply too much car to dip into the $80K range anytime soon. Remember, 355s (beautiful, wonderful cars) range from 4 years old to 8 years old at this point. My '01 stickered around $225, plus lux, plus tax, plus plus. The gentleman who bought it paid for it, drove it home, drove ~900 miles, drove it back and traded it in! He has ~12 Ferraris. When he traded it, he took at least a 60K hit, for 6 months of ownership. I'm sure it didn't phaze him a bit, because that is the monetary stature of most of these guys; it simply doesn't matter! Big Dogs, with Long Legs!! | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2002 |
EFWUN, you clearly raise a good point re: the "commoditization" of the 550. This will undoubtedly continue to put downward pressure on the prices. I think the 360 (and the 355's) are/will continue to suffer the same fate. Regards. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2002 |
BTW, I just thought about the depreciation angle. I don't know what MSRP's for the '97 550's were when they came out, but assuming they were similar to todays MSRP, you are talking about approximately a $110K depreciation over six years (ie, assume a '97 today goes for about $115K. That's about $19K of depreciation a year. Two caveats: (1) Depreciation is not linear, so the largest hits on depreciation is obviously taken up front; (2) The $115K price is obviously the price in a depressed environment, so you are looking at the lower end of the range. Per my earlier post, a number of factors could increase this number. Still $19K per year (approximated) is $19K per year. Welcome to the wonderful world of Ferrari ownership!! As they say: IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS, YOU'D BETTER STAY ON THE PORCH!! Regards. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ghost, I think the truth is that these cars are not "limited" production in the sense of an earlier car like a 275GTB/4, nor even as limited at the Daytona. They will probably continue to depreciate, perhaps stabilizing around the 100k mark for early, clean cars, maybe even lower in a few years. Trust me when I say it is a fabulous car. As a convert from Porsche 993 and 993 TT, I can tell you they're a world apart. Take the plunge, don't think with your wallet!! | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2002 |
I guess what you guys are discussing is really the crux of my question: where do you think prices for 550's will stabilize. With all due respect to differences of opinion, my personal opinion is that there are baseline prices for some of these cars. For example, I think it's fair to say that '95 355 GTB's have stabilized around $75 - $80K based on the data I see and the discussions I have had with some dealers. Of course, once in a while you get some fantastic deals (like the '98 that was bought for $85K), but I think in general prices seem to however around this range. With respect to the 550's, however, I am suprised that they have not yet stabilized, and in fact are are continuing to decline steeply in price. My personal opinion, again, is that I think a '97 should stabilize (given the current climate) around $110K - $115. A lovely summer, an economic recovery, a resolution with Iraq/N. Korea will all work to increase this base-level price. Just to make it clear, I'm not bottom fishing here -- its just that I really am geniunely surprised at how much these cars have fallen (MSRP is north of $225K for a new one, right!!) and am wondering if/when a floor will hit. Regards. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2003 |
Exactly, Mark, and there are quite a few guys with '00 and '01 USA cars with 2K miles (although why I don't know) who value their cars at $175 and won't (and don't need to) sell them right away either. It's such a wonderful car, why hold a fire sale now, when you can drive it a couple of years and REALLY go up in flames?? | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2001 |
I've got my 98 US model with 22K miles and no stories up for sale at $115K. If it doesn't fetch very close to that amount then I'll just hang onto it for a while longer and enjoy it while I can. Even if it means selling it for less in another year or so. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2001 |
ross - i certainly can't comment on the european market, and i'm sure youv'e seen what you say you've seen. my comments are re: the US only. i have no way to know what happens in the other markets. obviously it would cost you non-trivial money to import that $100K car into the US, so i don't think your data is conclusive as it regards US valuations. doody. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ross, I'm not suggesting 50K as a price differential, just noting cars I know about. Also, in my search, I found that EURO cars tended to pop up in less reputable places. (I'm not talking about Amerispec, my understanding is that they're above reproach, I'm talking about certain South Florida non-factory dealers etc. ) Also, in the U.S. these cars tend to be much lower mileage; 30K is quite high mileage over here. I heard of a '99 U.S. car with lots of Michelotti stuff with 35K miles that brought 120K in January. Several other dealers are standing pat at $180K for ~2K mile '00s. Time will certainly tell. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 754 Registered: 3-2002 |
efwun, if anybody pays $50k more for a usa car than a 6 year old, off the warranty, mechanically perfect bladiblah, euro car, then they are crazy. ask martin why he bought his particular 98 355 spider. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 77 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ross, Euro cars command significantly lower dollars here, partly I suspect because it's difficult to nail down the pedigree of those cars. I've seen a Blu LeMans '97 USA car, with 7K miles, go for $130K this year, and a '00 USA car Red/tan shields and calipers, 2K miles go for $160K. I just don't think the future holds $80K 550s in the U.S. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 751 Registered: 3-2002 |
doody, i am basing that statement on the fact that i have seen lhd 97 550's with less than 30k miles, offered in london during the last 6 months for about $100k. this predated the fall in the usa. now i know there are owners of that same category of car, that are still looking for buyers. some fellow fchatters here have recently sold some exceptional fcars at eye wateringly low prices. the london market is particular in that we are blessed/cursed with a very high number of these cars per capita; and so the ratio of available and decent cars vs buyers with $100k to throw at a 6 year old used car is definetely in favor of the buyers. the usa mkt as a whole is obviously different, but cannot ignore the price movement in europe for very long - as we have seen the number of fchatters who are buying euro cars in the usa going up significantly. all that to say, although we won't be able to verify this, i stand by my contention that accident free, clear title, early 550's with normal mileage will transfer from one individual (ie no dealer in between), to another at $80k or close to it before year end. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2003 |
Also, Ghostrider, there are quite a few cars out there with "stories", like the Blu Nart 2000 car that was an FNA photo car and caught fire! I don't think clean, no-stories, low mile cars are quite that depressed yet. Follow Doody's advice; get one, enjoy the crap out of it!! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2003 |
Additionally, just as the initial scarcity of 360s drove the 355 market through the roof, when the new V-12 Berlinetta comes out, I would expect prices on no-stories, low mileage 550/575 cars to escalate again. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 853 Registered: 11-2001 |
i've been wrong before ross, albeit not often ;-), but $80K retail for a 1997 550 Maranello that hasn't been toasted in some fashion seems unreasonable in nine months. doody. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2003 |
I don't enjoy being called ignorant, dave. Quite a few dealers are resistant to selling cars, even when the market has clearly passed them by, and that slows the descent somewhat. Basic economics, for those of us who actually went to university and got an education. I don't need anyone to "prop up" the value of my car, I bought it knowing full well it could be worth nothing in six months. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 448 Registered: 1-2002 |
Expecting dealers to prop up the market is just plain ignorant. No business can hang onto dead inventory very long. Dealers have to sell, even if it means taking a loss, and move on. Dave | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2003 |
I don't see '97s going all the way to 80K; it is too much car and the dealers have too much invested to let things get that desperate. Nevertheless, prices are still dropping. I saved $60K buying my six-month old '01 with 1,182 miles in September, expect to spend $100K to own it for a couple of years. Oui, c'est la vie. Thrilling car, almost worth the money. | ||
| Antony R Chapman (Antonio888)
New member Username: Antonio888 Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2002 |
You guys are lucky - they cost here about twice as much, the 348's are getting to be the bargain (if there's such a thing) here with 355's holding around $120k | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 745 Registered: 3-2002 |
i hate to say it but....i told you so. and they will keep sinking to about $80k for the '97's before the year is out. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1035 Registered: 5-2002 |
Around 110k at wholesale level now. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 849 Registered: 11-2001 |
Can prices really go any lower?? as my dad used to tell me re: investing in the stock market: "it can always go to zero". :-) pick one up. enjoy the crap out of it. realize there's no way to wipe the smile off your face. just enjoy it. cars depreciate. c'est la vie. doody. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2002 |
It's a real soft market out there nowadays. Good time to buy, but don't be surprised if you can get a better price than that. And rest assured prices in a 550 will continue to go down. It's new enough that it's still depreciating. | ||
| John Lee (Gjockey)
New member Username: Gjockey Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2002 |
It really sucks to try to sell a high ticket item and is a real joy to buy one (that is, until the tables turn and you want to resell that item LOL). Nothing new in this climate, and I don't really see what takes us out of it. A lot of the toys in the past couple years were bought on funny money. Now there's just too much supply and not enough people with real money to absorb it all. A good sign of the bottom being in will be when you can walk into a Ferrari dealership and get MSRP with no more than a 6-12 month wait on any current model. Dreaming? maybe, but remember those year(s) waits that used to exist for the M5 and 911 turbo? Poof, they're gone. --- John | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hey I will be a buyer soon (will soon be moving), so I'm not complaining, but I'm just shocked today to see what ASKING prices were on DuPont Registry for MY1997 - 2000 550's. Saw somebody asking $135 for an average mileage '00. Three months ago, you could barely get a '97 for that value. What is going on?!? Am thinking off jumping in once the move is over, but was informed that the economic hangover is going to last for most of the year in '03. Can prices really go any lower?? Regards. |