| Author | Message | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
Junior Member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2001 |
Update: Just brought the car in for an estimate. Cost of repair $3,900.00. Thats not too bad since they will have to repaint the whole front end. They said what they will do is spot weld a series of pins on the dent and with a slide hammer attached to the pins, they will pull the dent out then fill with bondo. They said bondo will not be thicker than 1/4" but I still think thats too much bondo. I faxed the estimate to the Moving Company that hit the car, but they havent gotten back to me. Probably trying to find a way to back out of having to pay for the repair. | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
New member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2001 |
James, Try Allen Auto Body in San Carlos. They did an excellent job when they fixed my BMW few years back. | ||
| Tim Hogan (Tojo)
New member Username: Tojo Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2002 |
I bought my 79 308GTB as a project car last year after it gad been crashed by the previous owner who had no insurance. The front and rear left panels were smashed in good. I have had to get cut and shuts done on both. Here's what I've discovered. Ferrari's of the same model vary underneath the skin incredibly from one year to the next. Mine is a euro car but my front cut came off a 77 US car. The rear cut came from a mid 80's US GTS. This all meant lots of unexpected fun for my panelbeater. It took him 6 months to do it all, but to his credit he did a great job. My point is that to replace a major panel things will never be the same underneath again, eventhough no one sees it. Also, the whole front guard section is quite flexible when the spoiler is not bolted to it, so it becomes harder to get any door gaps right and they may change slightly when the spoiler is refitted. This is some of what I have leaned from my continuing restoration experience. I envy you that insurance will cover the repair for you as I have had to source parts and pay for them myself. Nothing comes cheap in the world of Ferrari, but that's the price of this most worhtwhile passion. Good Luck to you. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1030 Registered: 2-2001 |
For any of you who follow Nascar racing as I do, you would know that other than the hood, roof and deck lid, the rest of the sheet metal on the car is totally fabricated by hand using Metal Breaks and English Wheels by true craftsmen. The repair on the front of that Ferrari is a piece of cake as compare to some of the jobs I have seen repaired. Where does everyone think you get a front fender for a 1928 Rolls Royce? You don't, you make one and believe me the right person can make one identical or better than the original. Granted the kid off the street sanding cars at Maaco for minimum wage cannot do such a thing but it can be done. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
New member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2002 |
The wrecked car can easily be fixed to better than new. I rolled my '95 993 at Road Atlanta several years back and it was repaired and repainted in Atlanta by Sports and Classics. They had the dang thing for 6 months. When I got it back, it was obvious that any Porsche nut could immediatly tell it had been repainted. The factory Porsche paint contains a very small amount of orange peel that is especially visible under florescent lights. The new paintjob was totally flawless, far smoother and more even than the factory paint. It was funny, the repaint being so much better gave the car away as an accident victim! I didnt care though, it drove exactly the same and looked much better  Terry | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
New member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2001 |
Any recomendations for a good body shop in the San Mateo or San Francisco Bay Area? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2349 Registered: 2-2001 |
P.S. As Bret says, Be sure you pick a good body shop. This is true because a good body shop can replace a panel and you will never see it thus having a level smooth front panel with out bondo. Of course it is your car and you have to make the decision. I hope it comes out good no matter what proceedure you chose. BRGDS | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2348 Registered: 2-2001 |
Good luck on the "banging out" of that panel. That panel as thin as it is will stretch as you try to flatten it. Seams can be ground and repaired properly because they are reinforced. A rust repair is not like a repair of a distortion of a panel like that. Anyway we know what opinions are. So that's mine and it wouldn't be straightened on my car it would be cut out and replaced. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2244 Registered: 2-2001 |
They'll keep the same panel, they can bang it out near perfectly and then only a few small spots will be filled with bondo. Good as new. There are some real craftsmen still out there, they are the ones you want to go to get this done. A real high end shop. Trust me, you don't want to replace any of the panel. It's a lot harder than it seems to replace it because things just don't match up at all in some cases and welding the piece in around all that stuff would be a real b_tch. From what I can tell the hood and headlight are good, which is a real good thing. They don't exactly give them away and they are hard to find. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2341 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, According to your second photo that panel is too distorted to use again. No good body shop will try to straighten it. Thats why they don't repair lower panels under the trunk lids of a lot of cars because there is no reinforcement and the panel is too thin. Can you imagine bondo on a thin panel like that. The first time it flexes it will be like porceilan popping off a p-sspot. If you want it done correctly like you want it, have the panel replaced. | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
New member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2001 |
My main concern is to get this repaired and not be able to tell it was fixed. But, the damage IMO is worst than what the 1st picture shows. Attached is a close up picture. Between the hood and head light, that small area is pushed down below the headlight and hood and I think it will be a ••••• to pull and straighten out so that everything will line up perfectly. But I m not a body and fender man, so maybe it will be a piece of cake to the pros. I am not stressing out on this since this isnt the first ferrari that I have had thats been hit. My first 84 308 I purchased in 1985 was also a victem of a hit and run. Now that one stressed me cuz it was only a year old at the time. As you can tell, this one sits in my driveway with a cover on it. It is only a car as some of you have said. Im just pissed at the guy that hit it and says he didnt know he hit it. Anyways, its off to the body shop on Friday.  | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1011 Registered: 2-2001 |
The entire front panel gutter area between the trunk lid and front panel on my 308 had rusted through and my body shop fabricated a new panel all the way to the front emblem and I dare anyone to tell that it has ever been repaired. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2236 Registered: 2-2001 |
You can get at the front part there from underneath really easily though, especially if you take off the bumper. It is thin though to say the least. I think the thinnest part of the nose section would have to be right behind the wheel well and in front of the windshield. It'll buckle there under just slight pressure. Right over the wheel well is strong though. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2338 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't know if you guys noticed or not but that panel will buckle like tinfoil. That panel was rolled thin with no reinforcement behind it. Check out your own. Mine is that way. So to repair that with Bondo and get it straight will be a •••••. You can't pull it because it is too flimsy. Just my opinion. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2222 Registered: 2-2001 |
Another point against any panel replacement. These panels were custom fit at the factory, no two are exactly alike. So if you were to get a new front end it would have to have body work done to it to make it fit the one you have now. If the headlight is hit it might have to be replaced, although it is steel so it could theoretically be banged out. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 659 Registered: 1-2001 |
Got to say that I agree with Edward on this one -- just like garage queens get an unjustified premium, "no accidents" gets way overblown IMO. Sure, if a car goes thru a serious collison/repair that's a negative, but this is minor -- replacing the whole front clip would be more of a negative/risk laden than just repairing what's there. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1004 Registered: 2-2001 |
The damage does not appear to be too severe from the photo. There is no way I would replace the entire front end assembly. Any good body man can repair that panel and a good painter can match the paint. Even if you replaced the front end, you would still have some body filler in it and probably the replacement would be more obvious than the original damage. You have body filler from the factory. It's no big deal. Go get your car fixed and do not worry yourself into therapy as you are doing now. What you have is a big parking lot ding. No problem!!!It's just a car. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2316 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, First Be sure your witnesses are ironclad. Make sure this guy knows this. I would still let my insurance company know so that if there is a problem they will subregate against him or his carrier. That way you do not have to put out for a lawyer if it comes to that. I don't know when this happened but I would have a Police report done on it and have one or more of the witnesses attest to the truck being involved. I would do this even though the guy admitted it but didn't know it that he hit it. This is important. Get the best estimate, new panels entire paint job ,open on estimate, if paint doesn't match and go from there. Also Acrylic lacquer is still available. I just bought some last month. | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
New member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is the latest update and some answers to some of your questions. TomD,this was how I was able to catch the guy. I wrote a letter asking if any of my neighbors seen a large truck on our street the day the accident happened or if anyone witness the accident. I printed up 40 copies and stuck them in my neighbors mailbox up and down the road. I live on a dead end road so a large truck would be noticeable. That night, I received several calls and was given the name of the moving company. I called and talked to the owner of the company and he first said he could not believe his driver would do this. After I told him there were several neighbors that came forward and they all pointed to his truck, he said he will talk to his driver. He called back in the late afternoon and said the driver told him he did not know he hit my car. The owner said he will take responsibility for the damages. He said he may not want to go through his insurance company and to get an estimate and send it to him. I email him some pictures of the damage and told him he may want to go through his insurance company because it may not be as cheap to fix as he thinks. He email me back today and said he would still like to see the estimate and avoid going through his insurance carrier. My next step is to find time to take it in for an estimate. TimN, As for possible getting the front spoiler painted for free, I had the spoiler repaired and repainted not too long ago and there is not a single chip on it. The only flaw in the car is where someone threw an egg at it and chip the paint on the rear deck lid. I would like to thank all of you out there for your valuable input and support. Art355, I notice you are in the San Francisco area and would like to give you a call sometime this week. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2001 |
I don't know the law regarding this but I do have a lot of experience with body work. Single stage paint is definitely still available. Usually your body man can take a sample and send it to his paint supplier for a very good match. I know in VA we can get a settlement from the insurance company for a loss of value on the car since it will become a repaired car. Usually about 10% of the vehicle's value. You may not be able to avoid the use of body filler (bondo) without extensive metal work. That is up to your body shop. They will usually try to pound or pull the metal into shape but to get a perfectly smooth surface you may have to use some filler. Don't worry too much about it, the factory does it to smooth out panels too! Think of it as very thick primer. ;) Good luck. Sorry to say but you will probably be out your car for quite some time. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 368 Registered: 5-2001 |
James, So sorry-I know how you feel. My advice-listen to Art 355 not any of us non-lawyers. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 681 Registered: 6-2001 |
If you get your front spoiler repainted and dont have to pay for it at least something positive would come out of it. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 356 Registered: 6-2001 |
Martin: That is bad advice in California. If James sues for the loss of value after his carrier has paid him for the repairs, he has destroyed the subrogation rights of the carrier and they could look to him for reimbursement. There is a rule of single action in California, and if he brings such a suit, he would have effectively waived the rights of his insurance carrier, causing him substantial grief if the carrier demands compensation for his destruction of their right to recovery from the responsible party. Each State has their own regulations and laws, and they do vary. Before anything of significance is done in litigation, it is always a good idea to consult with counsel familiar with the local (Statewide) laws and decisions. Art | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2206 Registered: 2-2001 |
Go to the closest dealership and find who they use. Use them to repair it and make the the other guy's insurance pay the asinine prices that you will find. The front piece is one piece as they have said, from below the windshield (welded at the bottom of A pillars) and everything else up there except the spoiler which bolts on. It's a $7000 piece from Ferrari, there are some east coast dealers with it. You'll be best having the Fcar body shop do it. It all can be smoothed back and with some bondo will be perfect. When they're done you wont even know it happened. BTW, bondo is the best stuff around for filling in those small wrinkles after the steel is smoothed. Lead sucks compared to bondo, I don't know why anyone would use it other than to be old fashioned (old fashioned is cool and all, but I think I'd take the latest and greatest, would you want a total loss oil system like a Ford Model T had? why would you want lead then, that type of thought IMO). Wide World of Cars has their own body shop. Classic Coach is the only authorized Ferrari body shop in the US, it is in New Jersey. Try and get them to pay for it to be sent there and fixed. I can't tell if the hood is bent at all, if it is it's shot for all intensive purposes. The aluminum, is a ••••• to fix, only the smallest of creases are worth bothering. They match paint with computers nowadays, you'll never be able to tell that it's matched and not all one spray. Don't worry, it's a pain, but it'l be fixed in the end really nice. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1776 Registered: 5-2001 |
Which brings me to the point that this legal system sucks. If you have to sue and have a case that is pretty much clear this system discourages you from seeking legal action because you have to pay for your own attorney. I bet you they would not give you such a hard time if they would have to pay for the winning legal council. Most lawsuits would not appear in court either. That sucks. You can always go and argue the case of the loss in value in Small Claims Court. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 354 Registered: 6-2001 |
James: You are entitled to a repair that makes the vehicle as close to what it was before the impact as it can be made. You are also entitled to loss of use while being repaired, interest on the money until paid, and the loss of value caused by the incident. The amount you can receive is limited by the fair market value of the vehicle at the time of the impact. An example: if the vehicle was worth 32k at the time of the incident, and the cost of repair is 35k, you can only receive 32k plus the interest and loss of use for a reasonable time required to replace the vehicle. The insurance carrier will not voluntarily pay you all that is due. They most probably will pay for adequate repair, some loss of use, and will fight over an dimmunition in value. Since attorney's fees are not collectable in California, in order to get everything that you are entitled to, you will have to retain counsel at your own expense, and given the relatively small size of your claim, this may not be cost effective. If you want to discuss this in more detail, give me a call at 415-775-2144. Art | ||
| M Grande (Grande)
New member Username: Grande Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2001 |
Damn James, that sucks. As you probably know, that front section is one piece...if you don't want bondo, what are your feelings on weld seams? In order to replace the damaged "part", the whole nose section (both fenders and center chanel) needs to be replaced....sit down cause that part is many many K's. As far paint, any good high end shop will be able to repaint perfectly. I differ, however, on the insurance issue. You probably pay special premiums for your car (I know I do). If the delivery company balks at the repair, go through your insurance company which *should* repair the car as you want it and then subrogate through the delivery company or (even better) sick their lawyer on them. Anyway, this comes from experience as a Range Rover I had was hit by a 18-wheeler. Dealing with the trucking company proved fruitless, so I just went through my insurance company which fixed the rover as I wanted it, and did a devaluation of the truck due to the wreck and then just went after the trucking company (I even got my deductible refunded to me when then settled the case). I wish you luck and do not envy you in your situation. Mike | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 290 Registered: 10-2001 |
When my Lotus was backed in to I had the entire front cowl repainted for just a few small cracks and they blended it very, very well. (Bondo not an issue on a plastic car!) Even on a 30 year old car, they matched it perfectly. I did go to a shop the local Lamborghini/Lotus dealer said they use. I don't think you'd need to paint the whole car; you'd not have your baby for months if you did! | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Junior Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 243 Registered: 9-2001 |
Be glad you got hold of them, most folks are not so lucky. Even though you want a new paint job, IF you deal with your or their insurance company, they will say only fix the areas that are damaged & BLEND some red to match the red on your car. This a hand made car & there is no computerized estimating guide for Ferraris. Get as many estimates from authorized high end body shops as you can. Many new auto paint can match most colors, even if the car has a red lacquer that will be stripped & redone, which is the most expensive. I've had good luck with STANDOX paint. My paint system shows 167 types of colors from the Ferrari factory. My shop did a rocker panel for a 1992 512TR that was a perfect match. Let me know what happens & good luck. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 491 Registered: 9-2001 |
Oh forgot to ask, how did you catch them? A few years back my friends brother paid some delivery guys to take some old mattresses away. They only problem was they took them and dumped them on the street where his brother lived about 2 miles away - busted | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 487 Registered: 9-2001 |
that sucks, looks like he caught you with the steel bars on the back of those delivery trucks, glad you caught him, My advice, please take with a grain of salt, is find out the cost to do all the repairs to your specs, then approach the company that did the damage and say give me XX and we will call it even, I would avoid getting the insurance involved, The delivery co might be willing to do this, after all their driver committed a crime leaving the scene of an accident. My 2 cents. | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
New member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2001 |
Someone backed into my 308, which was in my driveway, and didnt leave a note. Classic hit and run scum bag. Well, to make a long story short, I caught the scum bag. It was a furniture delivery company and now they said they will pay for the repair. My question is: 1. I dont want any bondo on the car so can I insist on having new parts installed instead of it being repaired. 2. The original paint is lacquer and lacquer is no longer available. Should I insist the whole car gets painted with the new paint so it wont fade differently in the future. 3. What would you guys insist on as far as the repair goes. Do I have a chance asking for these items with the insurance company. As far as I am concern, my car now has lost some value to it. Any Ferrari that has been hit, no matter how minor will be looked at differently. I know if I was in the market for another Ferrari, I would pass up one that has had any type of body work done to it unless the price is considerably lower.  |