| Author | Message | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just a follow up on my own question for the TR owners about inspecting and re-adjusting the cam belt. The WSM states: -The tension adjustment of the toothed belts is performed at the time of their original mounting. The belts, therefore, must never be retightened afterwards since the original working play would continue to return after a short time; each tightening operation would contribute to the distortion of the belt and eventually cause it to break. Consequently, if any engine intervention involves removing the belts, they must be replaced. -Every 15,000 km. (9,322 miles) to 20,000 km. (12,430 miles) Visually inspect for wear. -At 30,000 km., (18,645 miles) replace belts. Well this definitely conflicts with the warranty book which states inspect at 15k, 30k, 45k and replaced at 52K miles doesn�t it? The WSM was written for the mechanic and the warranty book was written for the owner. After looking at both pieces of information and giving it a long thought, I believe I will inspect and be prepared to replace the belts this summer myself if need be. They are almost 4 years old and have 29,806 km. (18,524 miles) on them. The owner before me had the 30k service done as part of my purchase deal and I saw the old belts and that were in great shape even though they had 13 years and 38,616 km. (24,000 miles) on them. However, like many of you who have said, it is cheap insurance. I have to agree 100%. Joe | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2001 |
Perhaps a wager is in order with those of you who say Ferrari will never change back to cam chains. Before taking the bet, you might want to remind yourself that the new Maserati engine has chains and that rumor has it that (for better or worse) this engine will serve as the basis for the new 360. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2261 Registered: 2-2001 |
At least with the 308 inspecting is simply looking them over. Most Ferrari belt systems use a tensioner to adjust to proper tension. Simply back the bolt out a little that holds it and it will automatically retension, then just torque the bolt down again. I would assume this is similar to a TR. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2001 |
Does anybody out there know of a proper way to inspect the belts and adjust the tensioners on a TR without removing the motor? Wouldn�t that be nice? | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 416 Registered: 2-2001 |
Why belts? Because I think we would all look pretty silly with chains around our waist. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 505 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ed points out the current problem for auto makers, competition and tech is giving us longer lasting parts much to the dismay of the dealers service area. I wonder if this is the reason more car companys include scheduled maintinance in the price of the car, - it gets people to the dealership for services since the presume they are free, all they do is charge you for it in the price of the car. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1021 Registered: 2-2001 |
There are some Lexus dealers that are printing their own service recommendation charts and mailing them to their customers and listing a timing belt change at 60,000 miles and totally ignoring the factory recommendation. This is strictly done to increase the service department's bottom line. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1780 Registered: 12-2000 |
Didn't the "magic" number of 15K and 30k come about, because of the Ferrari-supplied A and B service coupons in the owner's pouch (someone correct me if I'm wrong)? This sticks out in my mind, from one of the earliest editions of Forza magazine with a 308 buyer's check list (NOT the Buyer's Guide issue). | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 413 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have a U.S 308 and it also says 52K on the belts. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2352 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari Joe, This is something we, on F.C., have been discussing for some time now. Which comes first the chicken or the egg. Time versus mileage. Go by your manual or go by your gut. That seems hard but in reality that's the way it is. There will probably be many opinions to follow. BRGDS | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2246 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrarijoe is right about the intervals. Check out the OM. | ||
| Chris Young (Bimmerboy)
New member Username: Bimmerboy Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ferrarijoe: I noticed you have an Euro-spec TR. Are you sure these intervals aren't in kilometers? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2343 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am probably saying something that everbody knows, but it good to keep a regular check on your axle boots, like when you change your oil every 3000 mi.. You should wipe them down with a good spray silicone about every 6 mos.. This keeps them flexible. Once that boot is broken it doesn't take much for the grease to sling out of the boot and the sand and dirt is attracted to it, thus cutting up and wearing out the joint. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2342 Registered: 2-2001 |
Timn, When you said they were clicking in the turns I knew it was all over. Sorry for the major repair. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 718 Registered: 6-2001 |
••••, i new it wsa the boot at first. A kid who i know is a mechanic and he said it was probably the boot and that if it just happened it wouldnt be a problem. I guess too much sand and dirt got in and ruined the joints. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 717 Registered: 6-2001 |
Maybe 15 minutes by a profestional. It took me 3 hrs to do one on my friends sentra, but that inlcuded drives to the parts store. I pretty much learned as i went. I also have to take into accound the amount of time i need to correst the mistakes i will make. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1017 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Honda axles can be replaced in about 15 minutes per side. I do it almost every day. Talk about a travesty, Honda still uses Neoprene boots on their axles and they fail about every 50,000 miles, when the polyethelene boots GM uses last indefinately and so do the joints. Guess I shouldn't ••••• too much, that's how I pay my bills. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 710 Registered: 6-2001 |
I personally thought my 94 accord could have gone longer on the belt, it didnt look bad at all. Its up to 119k now and it looks like the axles are the problem, i guess they dont appriciate high school driving styles. I really have to get around to changing them, but i cant bring myslef to wasting a saturday. They only click around right corners, when they start clicking around left corners i'll consider it. | ||
| Steven Jones (N24re)
New member Username: N24re Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2002 |
You guys be careful when considering letting your belts go for a long time. We have had several cars come in that when we took the belts off they had dried out and become very brittle. On the other hand a car used often and kept in a partially climate controlled environment shouldn't have a problem with this. I will continue to change the belts on my 328 every 5 years. It may be overkill, but it is easy to do in my car and fairly cheap...for a Ferrari. We had a 348 come in that sat outside during a snow storm. When the snow melted during the day it ran into the cam belt cover area...then froze. It was very very bad. We ended up replacing both heads for the customer. I say change those belts every 30k or 5 years...it's cheap insurance compared to a top end rebuild. Cheers' Steve Jones www.sportauto.cc | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was looking at the scheduled maintenance intervals in my �87 TR owner�s warranty and service book and it states that the camshaft drive belts are to be inspected and adjusted at 2K then it�s only recommended to inspect them at 15k, 30k, 45k and replaced at 52K miles. And then only inspected at 60k and 75k. That is as far as it goes in the book. All the inspection intervals have an asterisk which note �All operations marked with the asterisk are not required but recommended if the car in frequently driven either in unusual traffic conditions or in dusty or sandy roads�. So why are we replacing them at 30K? I would think because of preventive maintenance. But at $3,500-$5,000 it sure makes you wonder why Ferrari says at 52K miles to the point of believing they can go longer than 30k if you don�t drive in the above conditions. I saw my original belts that were replaced at the 30k service and they looked pretty damn good. I will pay more attention to the tensioning and feel they can last 52K this time. I just hope the main seal and water pump hold out as long. What do you guys think? | ||
| Bill Stevens (Pig4bill)
New member Username: Pig4bill Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2002 |
BMW switched from toothed belts to chains in 91-92. It is a zero maintenance item. Sometimes at over 100k miles the oil-fed tensioner begins to wear and you hear chain slap while it's cold. Replacement is a 1-bolt job, takes 15 minutes, and the part is $30. There's no way a toothed belt can handle reversed bends as well as a linked chain. I've heard of belts jumping a tooth in normal hard driving, but I've never heard of a chain jumping a tooth. I suspect the real reason is inertia - not camgear inertia, but within the Ferrari organization. Unless there's a compelling reason to change something (customer convenience is not very compelling), things will remain as they are. | ||
| Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 199 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dave, Since I had a Naval Academy appointment and did not go because I can't see my hand in front of my face, thus they would not let me FLY. How about a ride big guy in your fighter. I might even let you drive my car.' Let me know. Kelly | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1002 Registered: 2-2001 |
Timing chains and gears used to be the only way to drive the cams. When the belt came out, it was a cheap way to drive the cam and lower the weight and cost. With the emphasis now on longevity and the lack of the availability of a supply of Technicians that can do much more than change oil, the manufacturers are leaning back to chains. The technology for better chains is there also. Nissan is the most prominent Japanese chain user. I have customers with Maximas with over 250,000 miles with no chain problems and look at the savings that they have realized in maintanence. On the other hand the belt technology has not been standing still either with the newer HTD belts equalling the chain performance in longevity. Most Lexus 400LS engines will easily go several hundred thousand miles without a belt change. The Cadillac Northstar engine that is used in most Caddys and the smaller cubic inch version used in the Aurora uses a chain that is also bullet proof. The IRL used the Aurora engine with a rev limiter at around 10,500 rpm for competition and not durability so there is no rev problems with a chain. Since I replace hundreds of belts every year, the biggest complaint that I have is factories making an engine that is not "free wheeling", should the belt break or strip. Most all Toyotas will not suffer any engine damage should it get out of time. Just put on a new belt and go. This is the best situation. A cheap belt repair versus a chain and no damage. If you go buy you a new Honda today the factory recommends a 90,000 mile replacement. This is a reasonable figure and since it can be done in my shop for $225.00 including both the timing belt and balance shaft belt, it is really a negligible expense for 90,000 miles. I have seen over 200,000 miles on the original belts on Hondas. The evolution of the belt has been great unfortunately the older Ferrari's belt system is one of the first designs and uses the older style belts, not to mention the Rube Goldberg dual lay shaft drive design instead of using the crankshaft with a belt pulley to drive the belt. Ferrari is the only engine that I have ever seen that uses such a fragile system and combined with an interferance engine and you have a ticking time bomb. At least 10 people had the good sense to convert their engines to the newer design belts and pulleys. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2216 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari wont change anything until sales drop. As long as they can hit customers up for as much as possible there wont be any changes. Also, they are very familiar at this point with belts. Most of the guys old enough to be familiar with chain driven Ferraris are retired by now. Also, I think there is some sort of subconcious thing that many rich people enjoy paying such absobenent costs to own a car. It makes them feel satisfied or something, or happy they can accomplish it. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2001 |
As previously mentioned, chains are about to make a comeback. The reason claimed? Durability. Even Ferrari is realizing that it is not cool to have to pull and open up an engine every 30k miles to do belts when engines themselves are reliable enough to go at least 100k without major service. For a Japanese engine that can go 200k miles, even their 60k mile belt intervals are worth avoiding. (though belts can be made to last a long time: our VW Golf calls for belt change at 60k miles and I didn't get around to it until 85k miles and when I pulled the belt off it looked as good as the new one I put on!). Personally I like the sound of cam chains. Some do stretch, as BretM noted, but tensioners should be adjustable for this (as they are on the dino 246) when you hear them get noisy. There is just something I like about the damn things. Take a look: http://3jar.com/rich/dino/images/motor2.jpg | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2212 Registered: 2-2001 |
The only real drawback I can think of regarding belts is potential engine/gearbox stress from the belt stretching and rebounding back. How prevalent this is in a small Fcar engine I'm not sure to be honest. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2211 Registered: 2-2001 |
I know this may sound stupid and I'm sure you guys can come up with examples of high revving engines with chanins (motorcyles, etc), but something I'm winding the hell out of I would rather have the belts. It's a significantly different engine design to incorporate a chain into the system, which would be more weight again (albeit sprung if you look at the engine as a separate entity). Plus, other than Edward have any of you tried to change an engine chain? I'd rather change a belt every 10K miles than change the chain in my jeep every 50K miles (granted it lasted like 200K miles before needing a change). Plus, you can easily inspect a belt to see if it's wearing, a chain you can't. My chain on the jeep was so stretched it was actually hitting the valve cover, slapping around in there (even though the jeep only revs to like 2K rpms). As stupid as it sounds, I like the belts. The engine is good to think of like the car itself weight wise (unsprung vs. sprung as a loose definition, not a technical definition regarding the engine, just as a concept). Just as lighter rims and brakes significanly improve performance because they are unsprung weight, lighter unsprung weight in the engine is much more effective at increasing performance as opposed to say lightening the oil pan. So, even disregarding all the extra weight of incorporating a chain into an engine, the extra unsprung weight and friction of the chain and drive gears is enough to make a difference in performance. Just my $.02 | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2002 |
I did not mean to start a war, but I reall find it hard to belive that Ferrari is taking money and service into this issue. Rather the technology that they have developed in there race engines. let me ask this question does there F1 engine use belts or chains. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 359 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think that the choice between belts and chains depends upon the current technology. When these toothed belts first came out, they were a major step forward over the chains. In the early 70s Honda used chains on their 4 cylinder bikes, and the tensioner kept wearing out, causing the chain to fail. Would last about 15k miles. The belts changed that to a longer time. The manufacturers usually give themselves a margin, and I would bet the the mean time between failure on the Ferrari belts is probably twice the recommended change interval. That is how Ferrari keeps its warranty costs down. On turbine planes, there is a specified time period when items need to be replaced and they use that formula to ensure very little breakage of those critical parts needed to keep the plane flying. Art | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1789 Registered: 5-2001 |
not being technical at all I would assume that a chain needs lubrication. Lube means added weight, the chain is more weight and if the lube goed so does the chain. The thing with changing the belts is mainly preventive maintenance. Those that have aircrafts know the drill. Change things before they fail of getting close to fail. You throw out things that are perfectly okay but if you don't and they go it ends up in catastrophy. The 30K service is the same thing in my opinion. If you see cracks in your belt when you change it, you have waited way too long. Tim can sing a song about this $25K later.... | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with ed on it being a cheap way to do the job. Engines are going back to chains again for low maintanence reasons though. Almost all the OHC ford engines run chains that last over 200k and show no signs of guide or tensioner wear. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1001 Registered: 2-2001 |
They are a CHEAP way of turning a camshaft!!! HELLO! The car is made to sell for a profit. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2001 |
Mass? RPM? Seems Lambo(I know thats a cuss word here), seems to do just fine with chains as well as Porsche(911's and Turbo). Its just a feature of design and overall Id say the mass increase would be minimal. Maybe cheap would be more like it. Lotus has belts as well. I know there are arguments for both. Chains just seem to be stronger overall. Certainly the belts have shown more weakeness than we would like to admit. Mr Gault, of all the people here, Id send you my car anytime. There are definitely mechanics you can trust in this world. I have to trust the ones working on Navy aircraft every day. Always do a good preflight anyway  | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 296 Registered: 10-2001 |
I've never seen the point of belts from an owner's/mechanical point of view. This question has never been resolved to my satisfaction outside of the obvious service issue, and maybe I'm naive but I don't think Ferrari designed belts for the sole purpose of making money at service time. There must be either a production or technological reason for belts. I'm a chain guy myself. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 336 Registered: 1-2001 |
It's probably not so much for less mass as it is for less inertia. The engine will respond quicker to requested RPM increases/decreases. But it's probably really done because chains would be a nightmare-- look at all those sprockets, reverse bends and the length. Chains would have to run in an oil bath so there would have to be a case extending completely around the chain. And... chains don't like reverse bends and those high rpms. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1000 Registered: 2-2001 |
I resent that last statement. There are some you can trust. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Junior Member Username: Modman Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2001 |
I agree with Bret, F-cars don't accelerate off the line well. A mechanic told me that the belts are for less mass but I can't see it being for only that reason but for engineering beliefs. I had my cam belt changed for the first time at 33k and the belt was in really good shape. It looked as if it could have gone another 15k, who knows. I would like to change the belt at the next 40k to see what happens... what the heck, someone has to prove it to the world. You can't always trust any mechanic, and I have already experienced that. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2318 Registered: 2-2001 |
Even though belts have to be replaced at certain intervals look at the problems Mercedes has had with the chains wearing the sprockets on their 380s and having to have the sprockets and double chains installed. | ||
| Bill Stevens (Pig4bill)
New member Username: Pig4bill Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2002 |
Quieter? If Ferrari concerned about how noisy their engines are? BMW's don't seem too noisy, even the 8000 rpm M3. As far as the difference in rotating mass, it seems insignificant compared to what's in the flywheel. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2209 Registered: 2-2001 |
They're quieter and have less mass which equals better acceleration (very little though really). And like Tim says, the Italians don't miss a trick when it comes to getting money out of you. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 690 Registered: 6-2001 |
it wouldnt suprise me if it was because they can make money servicing the cars. | ||
| Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Junior Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 198 Registered: 2-2002 |
It's called RPM. We had a thread going not to long ago on this, and if I remeber correctly it was something about rotating mass of the chains compared to the rotating mass of the belts. Hence belts weight less. MY 2 cents | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2002 |
could anybody explain why Ferrari uses timing belts,and not chains. Does it have anything to do with engine sound? |