| Author | Message | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2001 |
JRV, It's very lonely here, going down the path of 'modding' a F-car. Little expertise, no real 'hot-rodding' mechanics, no readily available spares and a 'you want to do what?' mentality. I love cars and engines!!! First off, get my intercooler repaired, get EGT or WB-02 kit, if I can get enough info on how it is to be fitted and 'dialed in' for further forays into tuning. The K-Jet system struggles with what it has to do. Sometime back, considered Electromotive ignition but gave up due to lack of confidence in getting the base line set-up with a turbocharged engine and no specs. Keep it coming!!! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1158 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>All these recommended modifications are "mouth-watering"! << HaHaHa... Well these are only Tools CTK....the exercise is to equip the engine with monitors so that the Boost can be Turned Up "safely", in order to extract the most HP the engine/mananegment/intake/turbo will allow. As was mentioned several times by others here once the basic systems are in place 'Engine Management' is the next level up because of it's ability to be "tuned" to maximize the hardware in place. The TOOLS (EGT & WB-O2) we've been discussing allow the "Tuning" by monitoring progress & condition of the engine internals. The reason I brought up the Tools in the first place was I hadn't seen any mention of insuring some safety factors to keep the engines alive in the quest for power. When I run engines on my Dyno the hunt is more about the Data than the HP, once I have all the DATA recorded and analyzed then 'tuning' for power is the easy part, because of the understanding of what's happening and why. Once baselines are established and understood, reaching for thresholds isn't that difficult. | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2001 |
All these recommended modifications are "mouth-watering"! If you have the time, knowledge, cash and patience to re-engineer and improve, fantastic. Taso please keep me posted of your efforts. Have contemplated the same route about ?electromotive, haltech etc. but being in Singapore, i'm in another world away. Best Luck!!! | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 226 Registered: 6-2002 |
I really recomend you (if Konig hasn't already with this one) go full-up total standalone engine management. (eg Electromotive TEC-III, Motec, etc.) Just like a race car, your 1,000hp TR won't have much in common with the street motor anymore, so you are better off starting with a totally programable computer that will let you taylor everything (timing, boost, fuel) to the turbo motor's needs. I'd have a wideband on each bank, linked to a circuit that will instantly cut spark if you run lean under boost. (it can happen too fast for you to shut down yourself, belive me.) Good luck with the car. With support, you stand a good chance of 1,000 crank hp and staying there. Man, what a car. It'll go like a friggin missile when you're done. Best! Ben. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nice shop, JRV, just looked at your profile. Taso | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ctk, has Koenig upgraded tranny, etc.Have the original bill of sale from Koenig, has big list of all upgrades. But , I wont be dropping the clutch anytime soon, that's for sure. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2002 |
Actually the 917-30 could produce 1300hp. "Do you have Factory support?"Yes, the factory and I talk on a regular basis. Jean Todt and I are on a first name basis......hope you were kidding asking me that question. The koenig model produced 1000 hp, the Norwood supposedly made 1000 rear wheel hp. With larger turbo's , bigger intercoolers, etc, I think it's possible. Might as well go broke trying....kidding. Taso | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2001 |
The 308 single turbo I have was fitted with a Koenig gearbox with closer ratios and strengthened parts. This engine produces 380BHP only. Taso, I would look into serious brake, clutch and driveshaft upgrades. JRV, DJ keep up the info flow on EGT and widebands. Yummy!!! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1154 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Should be able to produce 1000 hp, not that I'll make that now, but you never know in the future.<< Do you have Factory support? Could get expensive, 1100 HP is what 917-30's were making. Less for the ones that lived ;-). | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sorry JRV, misunderstood. DJ, figuring injector size soon. Should be able to produce 1000 hp, not that I'll make that now, but you never know in the future. Do both of you have shops, or exp. with your own cars? I had a 930 with an Electromotive engine management, car made 536 to the rear, weighed 2900 pounds, fun car to drive. Want Testarossa give me the same feeling. Thanks, Taso | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
New member Username: Godfather Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2002 |
JRV, your correct the egt doesn�t read a/f ratio. I meant to state it�s not an accurate way of reading if you�re lean or rich in my opinion. Of course its very helpful but for example I�ve seen egt�s run high on a car perfectly tuned and also low for a car perfectly tuned. Both examples being turbo charged running a 12:1 ratio on 110 octane with both sensors on the number 6 runner. That�s where I believe the FJO is a lot better to use. Its gives you an accurate real time a/f reading as if you were on a dynojet using a there wideband. I�m not arguing that the egt is worthless, I�m just saying that in Taso�s case spending another 500 or 600 bucks on an fjo is good insurance that way he can always see his a/f and know if the boost he�s running isn�t making a hole in his piston, which can lead to very expensive repair. To be completely accurate using a egt you will need a sensor on every runner like Taso stated. Taso, what size injectors are you currently running? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1152 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>"Marketing hype" I don't where you're getting that from.<< Hey Taso, slow down buddy...I wasn't replying to anything you said. My comments were to DJ and his comments about the Wideband O2 set-up. The Wideband O2 set-up sounds interesting but there wasn't enough hard info "for me" to be able to compare apples to apples. I know what the range of Help EGT's are...and to compare the two one needs more info about the "range" of the tools helpfulness. That's ALL I'm getting at. And I agree that the ability to check every port is even better than just banks...but it's not absolutely neccesary for street cars, unless one is exploring the outside limits of their systems capabilities, if that's the case then all the data one can compile is the best way to go. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2002 |
I wasn't meaning the guage " state EGT reads A/F ratio" The dyno has an A/F ratio and an EGT sensor. We also are putting an intake temp. as well. Coolest thing i saw, he had a 930 that had a guage where it had a sensor coming out all six exhaust ports (6 cylinder), and you can switch and read each cylinder separartely and tune very exactly.I think guage was from a helicopter company, he was a pilot. "Marketing hype" I don't where you're getting that from. I've been around this mechanic for close to 10 years, and have bought and race prepped 3 Porsches from him. I always Dyno the engines to see what horsepower they are making , and he has always been honest. Not saying he is the best, bought at least he's been on target with his hp numbers. Thanks, Taso | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1149 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>All turbo cars should have one. But I feel its not an accurate way of reading your a/f as you stated.<< DJ, Well....I didn't state EGT reads A/F ratio....I said it reads EGT...which when interpretated properly tells how rich or lean the engine is possibly running based on the heat of the exhaust gas...although it doesn't read A/F ratio it tells one when the engine is happy or sad (so to speak)....and by monitering the EGT it is very easy to adjust for proper A/F ratio based on temp readings. The advantage of reading temp is that it can also point to intake charge not being cooled enough (intercooler too small) or cooling system inadaquacies not just A/F ratio. So the data gathered is relivant to a wider range of engine conditions. The wideband O2 might have advantages, but like I said, to do a relivant comparative analysis of it's value one needs more than a little blurb that's basicaly marketing hype. Gather the deeper scoop and let's compare. CTK, ....it is helpful to run 2 EGT sensors so that both banks can be monitored for running condition simultaneously. Basically the way they work is a normal Temp Baseline is formed and adjustments go from there to maximize the "safe" maximum output. EGT can also reveal to rich or other overall problems. To buy try www.pegasusautoracing.com If they don't still carry them I'm sure there's other sources. | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2001 |
This is getting really interesting!!! Can the FJO Wideband work on the electro-mechanical Bosch K-Jetronic system? | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
New member Username: Godfather Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2002 |
JRV, the EGT is good. All turbo cars should have one. But I feel its not an accurate way of reading your a/f as you stated. It does help but again I don't feel its accurate. You can be tuning your car and run lean and it be too late. The wideband i feel gives you an exact reading so you can avoid a very expensive mistake. I'll look up more info for you when i can. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1147 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Even better than the EGT is a FJO Wideband.<< Below is the entire Tech 'Blurb' about the Wideband (from the link provided)...hard to call something good, better or worthy on such thin info imo. I'd need far more Data than that to call it better than EGT, however info/data is king keeping engines running right & knowing when they're not. Can you provide more data that shows why wideband should be considered over EGT? >>The wideband O2 (oxygen) monitoring system is the most useful tool available today for tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio (AFR) on internal combustion engines. Maintaining the correct AFR is essential in order to get the most performance, economy, and reliability out of an engine. The higher the specific output (horsepower per liter) of an engine, the more important it is to maintain the correct AFR for a given operating condition. << | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
New member Username: Godfather Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2002 |
Even better than the EGT is a FJO Wideband. You can tune the car on the road and not use the dyno unless you want to know what power your producing. Check out http://www.widebando2.com/ for more info. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mechanical Bosch. Dyno has EGT. The mixture was around 14.5 to 1. I believe turbo engines should be under 13. Thanks, Taso | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2001 |
JRV, That's a good idea. How and where can I get a suitable EGT? I don't have a dyno capability but on-car testing on a track is an option. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1142 Registered: 11-2002 |
Have you guys considered installing an EGT (exhaust gas temperature) Gauge/Gauges? The standard way to determine lean running conditions on Turbo'd Engines is by monitoring EGT's. Reading EGT is also a very powerful tuning & diagnostic tool when used on the track or on a Dyno...in fact when Dynoing an engine the lack of monitoring EGT is like running with handcuffs on. | ||
| jari roikonen (Jarifinn)
New member Username: Jarifinn Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mr Taso At present fuel injection come's from bosch? mechanical or electric? | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was about to send you an email to ask for your mechanic, until I saw Singapore, a bit far. You MUST be the only Koenig there. We couldn't locate any fuel pressure regulators, we're thinking he might have the cold start injectors rigged to spray when boost comes on. By the time we trace everything, figure it out, probably price will be close to autronic. Fabrication will be a bit more, new injectors, etc.,but down the road when I decide to upgrade turbos, a lot easier to tune. Koenig did a great job with everything, but we're (my mechanic) very familiar with converting CIS cars from the 930's we had. If you have any pics of your car, send me a few. | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2001 |
You are right about tuners of modified engines. My local Ferrari distributor are really nice guys but they don't do turbos on a daily basis. There's a 348 here that has been done by Koenig to F40 specs with a twin turbo, the owner is still sorting out the engine because of uncertain adjustments! My engine had it's boost turned off when I first acquired it, had some of the parts replaced to standard F car bits but the shops had meticulously kept all the removed parts and stored them. Does your engine have the in-line fuel pressure regulator and is it still working? Mine has one, it is a Bosch part, not standard on the F car but it allows fuel pressure regulation. Koenig made several modifications to the fuel delivery system on their engines, suffice to say that fuel economy is not a strong point. My engine runs slightly rich but doesn't lean out drastically. I have no access to a dyno in Singapore but years of 'seat of the pants' enginge work and the real fear of melting down a F car engine reworked by Koenig makes me a careful man. I have seen an Autronic system fitted to a heavily modified 911SC, it works well but the fabrication time of getting parts to fit properly and reliably sure took some time. I agree with you that if you can put in a modern fuel management system in the Koenig, the car will be even more awesome. It's that by itself, properly sorted out and tuned a standard Koenig is very, very fast and totally reliable. Tinkering around a Bosch K-Jetronic or L-Jetronic fuel system designed in the fifties meant that you had to understand fuel system basics and to get it to do what it does, good engineering. With modern electronics and solid state circuitry, control and delivery systems can now achieve what we used to dream about. Have you tried talking to Walter Koenig to get help? I currently have a leaking chargecooler that I need to get fixed, JRV has been really kind in giving me a list of places where I can get service. Keep in touch and let me know how your project is coming along. The full Koenig fraternity is very small. Keep the FAITH! | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks for the advice. Not too many Koenig's out there. Glad your car is running well. I think I'm going with an Autronic engine management. Mechanic looked over entire fuel system, and I think that is our best bet. He also called Norwood, and they were very helpful. Some advice for everybody, I had Koenig TR serviced at Shelton, 15k service, plus extras. Said car felt great, and it ran well, no stumbles ,smooth but I had a 600hp 911 turbo, and could tell the koenig wasn't producing the 700hp it was supposed to. Many people are used to 200-300 hp cars, and when they drive something with 500 , car feels very quick to them. So, I dyno'd the car, and car was making only 5 pounds of boost, and about 475 to 500 horsepower. It was also running lean, and I wouldn't have known this unless I dyno'd car. If I would have turned boost to the 12 pounds it was supposed to run, probably would have fried engine. I think Dyno's are essential to heavily modified engines, not sure if your average Ferrari dealer could tune car. We're starting next week on car, let you know how it comes along. Thanks, Taso | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2001 |
Taso, I have a '87 KOENIG 308 GTSi QV that was a complete build in Germany in 1987. I bought the car as the second owner in 1997. When I bought the car, it could hardly run, a ten minute drive would cause the radiator to overheat etc. My experience was that in the time it was built to the time I acquired it, unknowledgeable mechanics had worked on the car and modified many systems and parts due to a lack of information and sheer ignorance. It took me a good two years to get it back into running order as I remembered it when it was first built by KOENIG. My advice is to reset all the specifications and adjustments back to KOENIG specs. The car is phenomenal!!! My engine is Euro, single large turbo with wastegate, adjustable boost controller, adjustable fuel pressure regulator and water/air chargecooler. The pistons, gearbox, ignition are all KOENIG parts as well. These are just the mods for the engine area, the bodywork, brakes, clutch, suspension, exhaust system were all tuned and had AP Racing or Koenig items. KOENIG says this engine has 380BHP DIN at 0.8bar boost, the torque is 400NM The car is seriously fast. I have had lots of help and advice from othe F Chatters and a very, very patient mechanic to help sort out the car. My experience is that KOENIG performs very complete engineering on their cars. They do not have a kit car feel or poor reliability. I run the engine to redline in each gear up to 4th then run out of road or nerve....regularly. My advice is to get it back to specs then see if you need to go further. The technology was mid 80s but the work and quality is excellent and when running right, it still amazes me that it has taken years for other production cars to catch up. Hope you enjoy your car as I am mine now. Keep the FAITH! | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 211 Registered: 10-2002 |
This is Nice !!!  | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 514 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nice profile pic.. I love all TRs. Good luck . | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 215 Registered: 6-2002 |
Motec Motec Motec. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1343 Registered: 2-2001 |
Congratulations on the extra power! Hopefully you'll be at 500+ soon. Ernesto | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2002 |
LOL... you're tuning a Koenig Testarossa and are worried about *cost*?? Funny. Seriously though, good luck! That's a bad-ass machine! Luke. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
Junior Member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2002 |
My car is at my mechanics, and we are in the process of tuning car. When I last dyno'd car, boost controller was not working and car made only 5 pound of boost, it still managed 385 rear wheel hp. We fixed controller, and are running 9 pounds. Car started running a bit lean , had to shut down run early. Good news is, made 80 more hp at 4000 rpm. Mechanic is playing with fuel, hopefully will allow me to test at 9 pounds. If we cant get enough fuel in, will go to an Autronic fuel management. Anybody have any exp. with aftermarket engine management on Testarossa? Curious about your cost, fabrication, etc. I'll keep everybody posted. Thanks, Taso |