| Author | Message | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 384 Registered: 4-2002 |
"ALL brake fluid is hygroscopic. " No, all glycol based brake fluid (DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5.1) is hydroscopic, silicone based brake fluid (DOT 5) is not hydroscopic. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 385 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hubert, ALL brake fluid is hygroscopic (except DOT5 silicone, which has many other problems). Here's the data, I'd love to see the data on your favorite fluid. "Dow Brake Fluid HD50-4 is a high-performance brake fluid that far exceeds the minimum FMVSS-116 requirements for a DOT3 motor vehicle brake fluid. It is used by OEMs as a factoy-filled brake fluid (Ford for one-RS). It is also used as a high-performance brake fluid for the aftermarket (Perfomance Friction, Willwood, etc. - RS)" - from form 110-454B-990AMS Dow Chemical Company, September, 1990. _____________ FMVSS-116 Requirement ________ Dow/Ford HD50-4 Dry boiling point, min_________401oF__________568oF Wet boiling point, min__________284oF__________300o Corrosion Weight Change in mg/sq cm Tinned Iron, max____________0.2____________________0.00 Steel, max_________________0.2____________________-0.01 Aluminum, max_____________0.1____________________-0.02 Cast Iron, max_____________0.2____________________+0.02 Brass, max________________0.2____________________-0.01 Copper, max______________0.4____________________-0.01 Pitting or Roughening of Strips Discernible Without Magnification, max_________none__________________none Gelling of Fluid/Water, Mixture at 73.4+/- 9oF, max_____none____________________none Crystalline Deposit on Glass Jar Walls or on Metal Strips, max_________none____________________none Sedimentation, Percent by Volume, max____0.10___________________none pH of Water / Fluid Mixture__7-11.5_________________8.8 Disintegration of Rubber Cup as Evidenced by Stickiness, Blisters of Sloughing, max___________none___________________none Increase in Base Diameter of Rubber Cup, max_______1.4mm or 0.055in__________0.014 in Water Tolerance @ -40oF Stratification or Sedimentation, Sludging or Crystallization, max__none_______________none Time for Air Bubble to Travel to Top, max_______10 seconds____________1 second @140oF Stratification, max__________none_________________none Sedimentation, Percent by Volume, max___________0.05_________________none Resistance to Oxidation Weight Loss in mg/sq cm Aluminum, max____________0.05_________________0.01 Cast Iron, max____________0.3__________________0.01 Simulated Service Performance (85,000 strokes, 248 +/- 9oF) Change in Initial Diameter of Any Cylinder or Piston, max____0.005in________________none Condition of Fluid After Test; Evidence of Gelling, max_________none__________________none "Without the data, it's only an opinion" - Enzo Ferrari c. 1950 Thank you for providing the forum, Hubert  | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 630 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob- "As water content in brake fluid increases over time, the boiling point decreases. Fluid with a reduced boiling point (or high water content) can create vapor by boiling in the caliper, or wheel cylinder. The result is sudden brake failure. And water in the brake fluid can contribute to corrosion of parts such as steel pistons and ABS modulators." Taken from- http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/brakes/brake_fluid.htm I made an error in the DOT rating. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 628 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob- Ford fluid is pretty hygroscopic, and it is not the fluid itself that will attack the components, it's fact that there is an excess of moisture present. It's good, cheap, etc. but needs to be changed often, and most street driven track cars don't have the fluid replaced every race/time trail, hence a high wet BP become relavent. Just my two cents, out of my limited experiecence. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 383 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hubert, I disagree with you on the Ford properties, I have a copy of Dow's data sheet. First, it's DOT 3, second as for brake fluid, it does not and cannot attack the brake systems components. Where did you get that information??? The stuff you can't leave in a system too long without flushing is AP 550 and AP 600. The Dow/Ford fluid was designed by Dow for Ford in the 70's to combat gray hairs from riding the brakes in Galaxy's and LTD's and complaining of a soft pedal. Reduced warranty claims and we as racers benefit. If anyone wants specific data regarding corrosiveness, I'll dig the sheet out and post. Search for "Ford brake fluid" here and you'll find my previous posts on this subject. BTW, wet spec is only for people who never change fluid. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 619 Registered: 1-2002 |
angelo- I just prepped my car, and did the following (got together with some friends in the garage on a saturday): installed ss brake lines; adjusted valves; changed tranny fluid; changed front rotors; installed new pads (ff&rr); bleed/flushed brake system (twice); bedded pads; changed motor oil; cleaned calipers; change spark plugs; ran a bottle of f/i cleaner through the gas tank (spiking w/ toluene will do the trick too); The car was cornerweighted and aligned a little while ago, and I haven't changed an 'overhanging' masses, so that should be good, and the alignment is still true, but will get done, again, next month; I'm not on a pro race team budget. Rob- Valvoline SynPower, dry: 502� F, wet: 343� F Decent dry, but the wet BP is awfully low for a 'performance' fluid; i'm used to seeing 400+ wet BP's, and castrol SRF is in the 500+ wet BP range!!! But, thats some expensive ••••. You're spot on w/ the Ford HD Dot 5 fluid, but, a word of caution to all; the Ford fluid is very, very corrosive, and if you intend to use it, be sure to regularly flush the system. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Martin, do you have the specifics on the Valvoline? Cost? Dry boiling point? Just curious 'cause IMO the Ford Heavy Duty kicks booty in $$ VS. performance at $6.50 / pint and 568oF dry boiling point. I get it by the case. But maybe the Valvoline is better, I just can't find the specs. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4010 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fresh brake fluid is really what you need to do. Get Valvoline Synthetic, a product that you can buy in any store and has a high wet boiling point of above 500. I am very happy. Make sure to bleed the brakes every 3-6 months if you tracked the car in the meantime or every other track day at least. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 375 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Jens, The prep list is titled 360 Challenge Preparation Time So this is just a sample of what I do for this specific car. Plus, Shell sponsors the Challenge competitors by supplying a limited amount of oil no charge, AND, Ferrari REQUIRES Helix 10w-60 in 360 Challenge engines. For 348, out of warranty, you choose your oil. I do like the Helix, but agree it's terribly pricey. Mobil 1 is what I, of average income, use in my cars. I like the Agip Sint 2000, too. The list I posted includes labor time estimates. For a car I don't personally know the history of, I'd start with complete prep checklist, which has 53 separate line items to at least visually check. This takes the better of 4 hours. Then on to brake flush, torque wheels, set tire pressures. More picky?? Then check alignment. More detail still? Corner weights, too, including zeroing the anti-roll bars if possible (scale and align). Now multiply hours estimate by shop labor rate. Race prep is kinda like aircraft maintenance, one strives to do all the preventative maintenance in the comfort of the shop, but not go overboard with unnecessary operations which take up time. Racing is filled with tight deadlines, one cannot call the race promoter and request postponement by two days because you can't get parts, or it's 5 o'clock and you've got to go home and have dinner with the family. So you do your best to balance all these tasks, responsibilities and deadlines. I don't want to scare anyone, when I do "technical inspection" at the track, this takes less than 5 minutes and I send you out. But the original question is in regards to preparation not inspection, there's a difference. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 334 Registered: 9-2001 |
Wow Rob, You can really see that you are a pro at racing preparation! Impressive, never knew that so much had to be checked. Always thought of tire pressure, some new racing break fluid and the usual check of oil level! What about that oil change to Helix 10W-60. I am "only" using 5W-30 Shell oil for my 348tb. I am not tracking the car often but do you think it is worth to change to this expensive oil when using the 348 mostly in normal traffic and for 2-3 track events per year (No really hard pushing there since I am an amateur and love my car ) How much would it cost to do such a comprehensive track check for a 348tb by the way? Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 298 Registered: 8-2002 |
Angelo, for a "street" car that you're just going to take on the track from time to time, you don't necessarily have to do anything to it if it's well-maintained. See the FCA TECH INSPECTION form at www.tradetutor.com/tgpr/tech.htm to see what items should be checked out and of course adjusted/repaired if necessary. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 372 Registered: 11-2002 |
This example goes into greater detail than you need for the basics, but it gives you an idea of what potentially is involved and potentially how much time it takes. Many of these operations can take less time. Basics is: brake bleed nut and bolt check (safety inspection is even less time, but is less detailed) emptying loose objects Check tire pressures wheel bolt/nut torque. The above may only take as little as 2.5 hours. 360 Challenge Technical Preparation Time Hours Operation 4.0 � Scale and align chassis, basic 1.5 � Oil and filter change, Helix 10w-60 only, 9 liters 1.5 � Clean and basic repair of under tray 1.5 � Repair front brake scoops 2.5 � Wash bodywork, remove tire and bug marks, wax 1.0 � Detail interior 0.5 � Brake rotor run out 0.8 � Clean engine 0.5 � Inspect air filters 1.0 � Run SD 2 diagnostics and print results / trouble codes / mileage 1.5 � Clean all wheel sets, remove tape residue 1.0 � Flush brake oil 4.0 � Completion of Preparation checklist, nut and bolt inspection 3.5 � R&R brake rotors and hats, one axle set 2.0 � R&R fuel pump 1.0 � Clean fuel filter 1.0 � Test and tune two-way radio system 1.5 � R&R spring/shock assembly, one 1.5 � R&R wheel bearing 2.2 � Cylinder leak down test 1.0 � Fuel system pressure check 2.2 � R&R spark plugs 6.0 � Rebuild brake calipers | ||
| Angelo H. Oliva (Blicima_355)
New member Username: Blicima_355 Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2002 |
What is a reasonable price to pay a shop to get your car "track ready" and what does it intale??? |