| Author | Message | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 284 Registered: 9-2002 |
seems to me it's getting to the point were the cars that are getting chopped up are becoming more rare than the cars that they are trying to replicate!! Soon they'll be chopping other Ferraris to make 330Gt2+2's!! So you guys that have those cars hang onto them...They will be worth big money!! | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 110 Registered: 2-2002 |
PSK and Brian-When I had my PF Coupe at Norwoods, Bob Norwood told me he had personally chopped up 7 of them in the 80's. Thats a big dent compared with the original 353 and that is only from one shop that was not even on the list that you had mentioned. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mike, If you want to buy one, heh that is cool the car has been made now and like you say it is only a car, not a religon. I just really hope that this sort of thing does not happen any more. As you can see there are for's and against's with the whole replica thing, and some of the workmanship (I have seen some beautiful GT40s) is amazing. I just think with Ferraris that it is complicated as they are produced in such small numbers and with the differing views of what is awesome, somebody out their is passionate about the car that others think should be scrapped for parts or anything else. Personally, recreating a P3/4 with a BMW 750 saloon (or F550) motor would be a great replica ... as nobody would be offended, after all not many can afford the original ... and there are plenty of modern cars crashed everyday to get the components from. Even a 250GTO with running gear from a Nissan would be cool, if really well made. Enjoy your 308. Pete ps: Have a look at the F40 replica posted on this site recently ... really well made (if not exactly right with the body shape) and it uses a Lexus mass produced car engine ... thats how it should be IMO. | ||
| Mike (Dollartaker)
Junior Member Username: Dollartaker Post Number: 89 Registered: 7-2001 |
PSK, Just for clarification, I am not considering the purchase of a re-creation. I just wanted info and thoughts on the subject. I have a 308 that I love. This sure is a sensative subject. I was asking about re-creations, not abortion, or religion. My personal thoughts: I would be inclined to agree with most of you regarding the desruction of a salvagable ferrari for the purpose of re-creating a vehicle. In the 80's, I think that many good condition GTE's were stripped for the purpose of making GTO's. There are however some excellent examples of GTO's made from tube frames and genuine Ferrari replacement parts. If I am not mistaken, the GTE ran down the same assembly line as the GTO? If the purpose for buying one of these cars is to be a poser, then shame on you. If I had a re-created GTO built from a salvage GTE, and or Ferrari parts, then the objective would be to appreciate the history and flavor of what the GTE/GTO provided.(no harm,no foul)The one thing I love most about the Ferrari community, is the passion. Thanks for your comments. Mike | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 779 Registered: 10-2001 |
I agree with Pete's opinion that destorying old cars for a recreation is bad. But silly me, I was thinking that the engines are available as spare parts and as long as you don't want a real Ferrari VIN #, then there's no harm. But I think I'm being naieve as it seems all these recreations are indeed from chopped up Ferraris. So I think I'm changing my mind on that GTO; it's a pretty car but is an abonimation for someone to build. So, is it like the illegal ivory trade, where possesion carries tacit culpability for the crime? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 266 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mike, I tried to find out how many recreations have been made but have not been able to find definite numbers. I think the companies that do this have gone to ground ... but I bet they still do them (if your cheque is large enough), just it is not advertised anymore ... or maybe they don't and the ones we see on eBay are embarrassed owners trying to get rid of them ??? Anyway from www.tomyang.net archived message board apparently these companies (used to?) make them: 1. DK Engineering (www.dkeng.com) 2. Terry Hoyle (www.racecar.co.uk/hoyle) 3. www.hietbrink.com in the Netherlands (have a look at this site they MAKE Ferraris, as their restorations do not really require anything but a serial number to get started ...) 4. www.finesportscars.com This does not include any Italian or American companies. These comments I have found: * 1 company has faked over 15% of the worlds original GTOs, so they have done atleast 6. * More fake than real ... obviously. * 30 remanufactured Ferraris by ONE company alone. * Even 250GT Pininfarina Coupes have been cut up and only 350 of these lovely coupes were made. * 330 GT 2+2 Americas have been used also, and only 50 of those were made!!! Thus when we think recreations we have to think of the following models: 250 GTO 250 TR 250 LM 250 SWB P3/4s (using 365GT/4 2+2 engines) Thus I think there would be over 100 to 200 recreations hiding, embarrassed through out the world. Thus from the total volumes made: 250 PF Coupe - 353 250GTE - 954 330 America - 50 330GT 2+2 - 1080 365GT 2+2 - 801 =3238 minus 10% due to accidents, etc. leaves 2914 We are getting close to 10% of the cars have been destroyed for something that is never real, and once you have got your rocks off via the I have a GTO/TR/LM look a like ... and sobered up and realise that you are going to be embarrassed every time you go to a Ferrari meeting, and get sick of say 'Yes it is a replica', and watching real enthusiasts walk away dissallusioned ... you have to sell, and an original interesting to SOMEBODY else car has been destroyed (or though Hietbrink could restore it I guess  ... this was an attempt at humour if I missed the spot ). Anyway your call, but I really cannot understand how anybody could take a grinder to a 250 PF Coupe, and I also do not understand how those businesses I have mentioned above (although I will add that it is aledged that they make these recreations ... not fact) can consider themselves to be the centre of the Classic Car movement and to be connosuers (sp?) and there for the survival, etc. of the Ferrari marque. If there was not huge money involved they would never have made any of them. Note also the 250 GT 2+2 in the background of one of the Hietbrink photos ... I guess another 250 GTO clone is in the making, and I and many others could restore that car, as it sure don't look bad based on that photo. I guess I will not need to go to those Ferrari club meetings, after all 200 GTO replicas all look the same, so I will only have to have a quick glance at the first car and then go and find a interesting car (like a Corvair, or 308, or a Alfa GTV ... I do not know, but something different). The other reverse point, is that I believe these companies and owners are starting to paint their cars in the original (not necessarily red) colour, and no longer installing inlet trumpets on all Carb'ed Ferraris, so maybe originality is finally becoming important not just to look like the latest cool thing to keep in with the so called IN crowd. Your call, and it is just my opinion, but I thought I was chatting with classic Ferrari enthusiasts ... Pete | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 777 Registered: 10-2001 |
A fake is a fake, but I do like the 250 on EBay. Aluminum body hammered from the original bucks, Ferrari 12 cylinder engine, all ferrari parts. That's the way to do a 250, not fiberglass and a Chevy engine. I have no problem with that car. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 196 Registered: 2-2003 |
If fun is the purpose of owning a Ferrari (it was, last I looked!), then why wouldn't it be more fun to have a hand-built, 2,300lb GTO replica built with a slightly hot-rodded 365 GT engine? I loved our 365 when I was a kid, but a GTO replica weighing 1,500lbs less would be a cool ride. What's so wrong with that? Doesn't have anything to do with those few fortunate enough to own the real thing, nor can I imagine it being a crime to use components from a car that has otherwise outlived its usefulness. | ||
| Mike (Dollartaker)
Junior Member Username: Dollartaker Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2001 |
PSK, Stop beating around the bush, what do you really think? Just a question, how many recreations are out there? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 824 Registered: 10-2002 |
As far as I know keeping the Vin # is what makes these cars legal. A rebodied car is still the same car for registeration purposes. (Smog&safety requirements). New build, or kit cars can be difficult to register and insure. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 645 Registered: 10-2002 |
One thing I always wonder about these recreations is, what VIN and/or serial number the creators use after they're done? Do you continue to use the donor VIN on the papers, but put a fake serial # (but within the replicated cars range) on the door frame? Or do you not even bother with what the serial # should actually be? I remember last summer somebody was selling a Daytona replica on Corvette basis on ebay and the guy had made fake Daytona serial # and mounted those on the frame. Sounds like this is getting close to illegality. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2002 |
As the owner of a car that has routinely been cannabalized for re-creations, crashed and not repaired, or simply left to rot and parted out, I take a dim view of re-creations made from the guts of these great and RARE old cars. While I completely understand the economics involved (see L. Wayne's comments below), I wish I had the remotest clue of how many of the various cars that fall into this category (not worth, in the economic sense, restoring) still exist. Although they were made in greater numbers than cars like the GTO, they are still relatively rare. Check out these production numbers: 250 PF Coupe - 353 250GTE - 954 330 America - 50 330GT 2+2 - 1080 365GT 2+2 - 801 I just posted this tidbit on another thread yesterday, but I'll repeat it here. I recently spoke w/ Kurt Vandenberg whose has been the keeper of the 250 PF Coupe register forever. He estimates that of the 353, there are only between 175 and 200 left - and he is probably the only person with the facts and background to make that estimate with any accuracy. Kerry Chesbro could probably make the same estimate for the 330 2+2s. Given the demand for high-end recreations made w/ original Ferrari guts, there are plenty of basket case PF Coupes that will end up as a recreation. It's great that someone will be able to drive around in a "250 GTO" that makes the right sounds; however, it will be a damn shame that an original that was made when the legend was being born had to die. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2001 |
I do not see very many 330 (4headlights) up for sale every year. Considering that they made a lot in comparison to other Ferraris of the time period and that supposedly everyone hates them it seems kind of wierd that people would not want to sell them. Many have been used as donar cars and Wayne is right that a number of those would have gone to someone like Tom Shaughnessy, but I would much rather that happen, because when someone needed that wierd piece it could actually be found. Rebuildable engines could be found for those that need to restore a 2+2. Why someone would pay $145k for a destroyed $35k Ferrari, made to look like something it is not, I don't understand. I would love to see someone create from scratch a old world Ferrari chassis and body, but instead they sacrifice a car that would be restorable and although many think the 2+2s are not worth restoring, some of us love them. It would be cheaper to restore it back to original than to convert it properly to a GTO or TR, and of course it wouldn't bring as much money, but it would be an authentic Ferrari 330 GT 2+2. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 265 Registered: 11-2002 |
I cannot wait until the day when all of a sudden the Ferrari world wake up and suddenly realise that there is 'only' say 20 4xheadlight 330GTs left and there are thousands of GTO replicas ... and these original 330GTs become collectable and thus the owners of the GTO replicas get RIPPED OFF!!! You can do what you like to a car, but the fact is that many nice and original and very restorable 330 GTs and 2+2s have been destroyed for this flaky car-salesman attitude of replica makers. They are not making these replicas to drive around in, but to SELL them to people who want to drive around in them. The people that make these replicas own businesses and are in it for the dollars only ... so please stop telling me that only cars that would end up being wrecked get cut up for these replicas. I have seen pictures on www.tomyang.net (eg: one very nice unrusty 250GT 2+2 missing its rear axle and engine assumed for one of these replicas) and this has been discussed to death on his site, as they are interested in the old cars. The other reason that this is done because it is far EASIER to create a crappy replica than to restore an original car to exacting specifications, thus again it is just hackers taking the easy and money making way out. This is NOT what the classic car movement is supposed to be about. If you are into destroying original cars that are part of Ferraris history ... no matter how small, destroy NEW Ferraris like F360's, etc. as there are plenty of parts, etc. to play with. To confirm this you never see anybody make a 250GTO replica out of a 550 ... simply because of cost. Authenticy has nothing to do with it, because these backyard special makers do not give a •••• ... just the same as bogging up an old car, and spraying it red, same thing. Why can we not just enjoy a car for what it was made for, and if you want something that looks like a 250GTO ... make one from scratch ... you can buy all the parts NEW as they are remaking the engines and other major parts in the States and other places ... and after all you do not care about what gauges you use and all the other stuff, you just want to drive around looking cool. OR try being original and make a Ferrari special that is not a copy but YOUR own expression ... or can't you think by yourself! So in conclusion this is supposed to be a Ferrari site supporting the maintenance and use of Ferraris, not a site to support the money making replica process that hunts out the low priced genuine and restorable Ferraris to make money out of flaky replicas. 250GTOs replicas can be made without a donor car if this money making and rip off process was not the be all and end all of this process, and I dare a company that makes these replicas to stand up and tell the truth ... naturally they use these older cars because it saves them heaps of money and they go laughing all the way to the bank, while some sucker drives of in another piece of ••••!!, after all they do not care about how exact the replica was or that how good their building skills are because if they had the real skills they would have restored the original car in the first place ... as that is heaps harder and takes real ability. What is wrong with the world and you guys? ... and how boring would it be if we all were driving around in 250GTOs, and no other type of Ferrari survived. It takes all types of Ferraris for us to appreciate their differences. Pete talking to the blinkered and blind ps: First rule of second hand car sales, buy a cheap car and tart it up to look like a more exclusive car and sell and make a fortune, can't you guys see that is all they are doing, and that they are doing the classic car market a disservice, and actually destroying their own life bread ... ps2: Noting Jims comment about GT40 replicas. I fully support this type of replica because it does not destroy an interesting car, infact you could make one without using any old parts. But then again why not make something original ... er like YOUR own design ... | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 177 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wayne, This is good thinking. If we all start buying up Fieros, they will become very rare and collectable. Then we can force the prices up until the Testarossa - Fiero conversion is a real money maker. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1229 Registered: 8-2002 |
How about a kit that converts the TR into a Fiero? | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1154 Registered: 10-2001 |
L. Wayne, I think every Ferrari is worth more in parts then it is together! I don't blame these guys for parting out the cars and making conversions. My Dino GT4 is worth 2-3 times more in parts since everything will fit on the GT4's and 308 series. The problem is alot of people are "renting" these cars. They make the payment to the bank each month and they don't care about maintaining the car. If the upkeep were done, all they would need is TLC, unfortunately this is not the case with MOST Ferraris. I think it would be cool to make your own custom "HOT ROD" out of a Testarossa chasis and drive train. I wonder if you could turn a TR into a Lambo Diablo? LOL | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 813 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie Wanting to share experiences with like minded people. You may not believe me but for me it's true. As an old GF once told me: "Make your art and Fu*k them all." Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 858 Registered: 5-2002 |
Why is it that people will wear nice clothes that are stylish; will buy a house in a nice neighborhood that anybody would like; will mow their lawn so that their yard will not be an eyesore; but suddenly we're supposed to believe that people buy and restore Ferraris and other rare cars ONLY because they personally enjoy them and they DO NOT care what other people think about the cars? Sorry, I don't buy it. Everybody cares what OTHER people think about their nice Ferrari, otherwise this would be called FOURDOORPLYMOUTHCHAT.COM. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 564 Registered: 8-2001 |
I also agree with Wayne. As the value of a car goes down, and the maintanence goes sky high, what is one supposed to do with the car? It is then economical, and sensible, to look at alternatives......part out the car, above the frame, and use the frame, and engine, to reproduce something else. I predict that the next "donor car" will be a very high mileage Testarossa. If it needs an engine rebuild, it virtually becomes useless to sell outright. Now what reproductions can be made out of the frame and engine of a TR? How about a Formula 1 car? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 812 Registered: 10-2002 |
Terry Wayne is correct the cost of doing one of these right can easily be $200,000. (For an accurate 250GTO replica) The cars they are built on are on the edge of being scrapped. Some of them are way cool. Arlie You miss the point. I don't care what the adverage person thinks about my cars. I own them because I love them and I'm lucky enough to be able to afford them. If someone is curious I'm happy to explain and I often find the most interesting questions are asked at the humblest of shows. The people who lovingly build a replica GT40's have nothing but my admiration. I've been to kit car shows where replicas have beaten my MK-IV. So what? As I head home, blip the throttle, change down, plant my right foot on the same pedal that Bruce McLaren, Mark Donohue, Bob Bondurant, and Sterling Moss have pushed on and feel 550FTLBS of Torque come to life I know it real and that's good enough for me. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1222 Registered: 8-2002 |
"...there are fewer and fewer 330's and 250 GTE's left out there." The reality is: 1. Being on the lower end of the vintage Ferrari food chain, these cars often end up with owners that can't afford to maintain them properly, which often results in... 2. Once these cars suffer serious mechanical failure, their under-funded owners are often forced to sell. 3. Cars like this are sucked up cheap by the "garbage collectors" who part them out. The unavailability/high cost of vintage Ferrari parts means that, in their present condition, they are worth more in parts than they are intact and in need of major repairs. It's cars like these that have been "parts robbed" as well as wrecked cars that become potential donors for replidoodads. To spend the money buying a car that is only in need of a little "TLC," and then throw more cash at it in order to convert it into a replica, would be senseless. Sure, that might have happened to some decent cars back in the late eighties, but I don't think it's happening today. I really don't feel that the conversion-cars are responsible for the "fewer and fewer" cars you're seeing today. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1152 Registered: 10-2001 |
That may be true, but there are fewer and fewer 330's and 250 GTE's left out there. I would do it on a wrecked chasis or a severely incomplete car, but not one that just needs some TLC. After all, the GTE's, Lusso's and 330's are beautiful cars in their own right. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1221 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ignoring Arlie's usual witty banter... Terry, the fact is that, at the high costs of conversion, the cars sacrificed are not usually "perfectly good" cars. They are, in fact, usually cars that would otherwise end up with someone like Tom Shaughnessy, and eventually become nothing but parts for sale. In most cases, the conversion into a "recreation" has actually given the car a second lease on life. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 173 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm sure that's exactly what they think . . . uh, NOT. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 172 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gotta love those "purests" horse. Love those "purists" too! | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 341 Registered: 9-2001 |
Horsefly, We shouldn�t talk about Camaros at a Ferrarichat board! Would be the same as a gourmet would talk about BigMac`s at the site of Gault Millau or Guide Michelin... Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 857 Registered: 5-2002 |
The purests frown because they can't stand the fact that somebody else has something that looks like what they have. That makes the purest less elite. They can't stand somebody driving around in a homemade '57 Testarossa replica (or whatever) that looks just like their million dollar original. The purest would then have to "explain" why their car is worth so much more to the casual observer. The casual observer only cares because it looks cool. It's what I have always called an "explanation" vehicle. Like a rare 1969 COPO Camaro owned by a rich big shot collector. Of course the car looks just like any other 1969 Camaro but the big shot owners have to "explain" to everybody why it is worth so much more. YAWN! Who cares? The car should speak for itself whether it's a Camaro, Corvette, Ferrari or Lamborghini or a replica. If it's cool, people will know it when they see it and it won't matter if it's an original or a replica. If it's not cool, no explanation will make any difference anyway. | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2002 |
i think recreations are awesome also. my dream is to make a repro of an old can am ferrari spider for track day events but im sure ill never have the nerve to do it. as much as we all love fcars they are not endangered species or the brazilian rain forest. they are mechanical objects to enjoy as the owner pleases. i just dont get these concourse types that frown at up dating an old car so the owner can get more pleasure from it | ||
| ken rentiers (Rentiers)
Junior Member Username: Rentiers Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2003 |
As far as re-creation goes - Darwin was right! | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2114 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think driving a really nice 57 TR pontoon repro on the street would be wild !!!! | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2001 |
. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 264 Registered: 9-2001 |
My only problem with them is that usually a perfectly good car is sacrificed for the creation. Some of us REALLY want a 330 GT 2+2 (4 headlight) and many have become GTO recreations. You could have a Concours quality 330, but there is no such thing as a concours quality recreation, or at least according to FCA rules. For $145,000 I would prefer, a BB512i & a 330 GT 2+2 and money for parts and maintenance. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1219 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mike, this topic comes up a lot. Here's an interesting article dealing with "recreations": http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_0011.html Personal opinion: I see nothing wrong with buying and driving one of these cars (if done nicely) for personal pleasure. Like I've said before, I would put personalized plates on it that said "FAKEY-DO." | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 161 Registered: 2-2003 |
There are several that are really quite well done; I'd have one in a heartbeat, but not to pass off as real! | ||
| Mike (Dollartaker)
Junior Member Username: Dollartaker Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2001 |
I love the 250 GTO. What are your opinions on this type of a car when it is a re-creation? There is one that was for sale by Michael Sheehan and, I beleive, currently on Ebay for $145,000 USD.What are your opinions on re-creations? |