| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lime Rock Park - Mon/Tues, March 24/25. Conducted by SCDA -- www.scda1.com. May still be some room for beginners, probably on Tues.; should still be some room for advanced. I'll be instructing. If you're interested, check out the website and call/email Ian Prout. vty, --Dennis | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 214 Registered: 2-2003 |
Have to go with Dennis; a reasonable, properly-aligned 355 should toast any of the 512 series cars at Lime Rock. Whose track event is that? | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2003 |
William, you're on! :-) First track event of the season is a week away... Mon & Tues at Lime Rock (assuming it's not still under a foot of snow). Anyone going? vty, --Dennis | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2122 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dennis, rematch this summer  | ||
| David W Burnett Jr (Dbdreams)
New member Username: Dbdreams Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2003 |
Lee, There is another thread you should read if you havn't already, "Are Ferraris getting too big?" I like Dave328GTB's analogy that the 308/328 is a "car you wear" I think he is refering to the cars small size therefore it feels as if you are wearing the car which makes it an extension of yourself and gives you the "attached" feeling. | ||
| Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member Username: Leepierce Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2003 |
Martin: I've only driven a 348, own carb 308, and Mike Charness's 308 QV. But while in Talladega last weekend, a super nice gentleman from Memphis let me drive his 355 GTB (sorry...I don't remember your name, but I have your card at home!). I tossed that thing all over the track...terribly sloppy. I felt like an idiot, like I was learning to drive a 5-speed all over again! That why I posted this thread. It got me to thinking "could this really be the replacement for the 348?". It's just such a radically different car that I didn't understand it; I didn't feel at home at all. Not that I couldn't get used to it, mind you! Immense power, precise handling, but I didn't feel quite "attached" to either, though they were there in droves. (But again, I wouldn't mind the chance to get used to it!) | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2003 |
William wrote: >a 355 might beat a 512TR around Fiorano but theres no 355 that will beat a 512TR at Pocono, LeMans, or Indy Ross wrote: >psk, re-read the thread....355 was faster than a 512tr (not by much mind you), but no way was the 348 faster than the 512tr - i've had both and they are night and day. and william is definetely right about track type; fiorano is tight and twisty without much of a straight. put the 512tr on a bigger track or road and it will eventually run away from the 355. ______________ hehehe... Well, actually, William, I have to disagree. It's only one particular example, but it's exactly on point. At Pocono in 2001 (during the Belle Machina Italia event), a guy I know with more seat time than me, driving his black/black 512TR on R-compound tires was slightly slower per lap than me, driving my stock 355B with Bridgestone S-02PP tires. That same guy is also slightly slower around Watkins Glen -- not exactly a "tight", "slow" circuit. Why are the 8 cylinder cars typically faster around most circuits than the TR and its variants? WEIGHT. Ferrari claims a dry weight of 3,660 lbs. for the TR, 3,344 lbs. for the 512TR and 3,208 lbs. for the F512M. (Shaving 400 lbs. from the Testarossa down to the F512M??? Yowza.) But the 355 only weighs (dry) 2976 lbs. Shaving nearly 400 lbs. adds a LOT of performance. So let's look at factory performance figures: Performance Testarossa 512TR F512M 0 - 60 5.4 Sec 4.9 Sec 4.6 Sec 1/4 Mile 13.6 Sec 12.8 Sec 12.7 Seconds Top Speed 181 mph 192 mph 196 mph Now check out the factory figures for the 355: 0-60 mph 4.6 sec 0-1/4 mile 13.0 sec top speed 183 mph Extrapolating from that, it's certainly fair to say that the extra torque of the flat-12 engine allows greater acceleration through the quarter mile (and probably beyond), as well as a higher top speed. BUT, neither a 355 nor a 512TR will come anywhere near its top speed at most tracks, unless we're talking about running an oval. Even at combined tracks (oval +infield) like Pocono or NHIS, the top speed is unlikely to exceed 150-160 mph, so the absolute top speed is irrelevant. SO, a 512TR might out-accelerate a 355, coming out of some corners. But a 512TR will always lose in braking -- the extra weight really hits it hard. And the 355 will outcorner a 512TR too. Thus, a 355 will be able to brake later into a corner and carry greater speed through the corner. At almost all tracks, this will be of greater advantage than the ability to accelerate slightly faster. Does anyone have actual lap times for Fiorano for street models? I'd be very curious to see. FWIW, at the tracks I've run personally, with both 355s and TRs/512TRs (never seen someone drive a F512M on the track) in higher run groups, the 355s are always faster. This includes tighter tracks like Lime Rock and Summit Point, as well as faster tracks like LCMT, Watkins Glen, NHIS and Pocono. Just my $.02. vty, --Dennis | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 815 Registered: 3-2002 |
psk, re-read the thread....355 was faster than a 512tr (not by much mind you), but no way was the 348 faster than the 512tr - i've had both and they are night and day. and william is definetely right about track type; fiorano is tight and twisty without much of a straight. put the 512tr on a bigger track or road and it will eventually run away from the 355. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dennis,
Well interesting ... did not actually know that a 348 was faster than a 512TR. This confirms that Ferrari did exactly the right thing by dropping that model and moving the GT to a front engine. Makes no sense having the engine in the back and no luggage space if the car can only perform at GT levels. Very interesting. Pete | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2121 Registered: 2-2001 |
a 355 might beat a 512TR around Fiorano but theres no 355 that will beat a 512TR at Pocono, LeMans, or Indy | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2003 |
PSK wrote: >If you look at the 348 and Testarossa you had two cars competing in very much the same market, with not enough to differentiate. As they have improved the 348 via the 355 to the 360, performance has gone up so much so that a 360 would be close if not faster than the Testarossa (and IMO a far superior car. ________ FWIW, a 348 was faster around Fiorano than the Testarossa, and a 355 was faster than a 512TR and the F512M. Also, Martin, I agree with you on the power steering on the 355. Although the 355 DOES handle better than the 348, and the adjustable shocks is kinda useful for long trips, the power steering does require quite a few miles to get used to, if you're moving up from a 348. The first time I had the 355 on the track, the power steering really threw me. Of course, I'm used to it now, and don't mind it at all. And it's worlds better for real-world use... try parallel parking in Boston in a 348, for a nice workout. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4027 Registered: 5-2001 |
The 550 was a trip in Chile to the most southern part of South America. They never made it if I am correct because weather did not allow that but a nice trip and proves the 550 is a reliable car. Same as the 355 and the 348. The 355 being the better car than a 348, well yes to a certain degree. The 355 handles worse due to the power steering. I almost lost the damn car today twice driving in the street because of the darn power steering. Talking about easy oversteer but they will call it driver error. I wish you could disconnect the power steering. | ||
| Eddie Lee (Lee168)
New member Username: Lee168 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2003 |
I also believe it was the 355 that went around the world, not the 550. During the Beijing (China)stop, the car was sitting in the courtyard of forbidden city with rain pouring down on it. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1971 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jack, you are correct. When the 355 first came out one was driven around the world to promote its reliability. It stopped at dealerships around the world for service and rallys. I remember seeing photos of it on dirt roads along the Great Wall of China and other remote places. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 208 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jack, I believe research will tell you it was a 550 Maranello that made that trip. I have seen a video on it showing the 550 driving on ice in the snow. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 398 Registered: 4-2002 |
Early 348s had a different hard points for the upper rear control arm. From the Speciale and on, the changed it to the same as in the 355. A different subframe is required, or a careful rework of the existing braketry can update the early 348s to the modern configuration. Althought he 348 and 355 use the same frame architecture and many of the same parts, somehow the ferrari guys welded it all up with 35% more stiffness. Too bad they added power steering... The TR line was dropped when the F355 was shown to be faster around Fiorano. But the TR line was never intended for sports car duty (although it did play that part in the late 1980s). The engine is mounted too high (above the transmission) for proper center of gravity that a mid engined car car achieve. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2002 |
Personally I think the move to the front engine, and to address the GT car market better, was a very wise move. If you look at the 348 and Testarossa you had two cars competing in very much the same market, with not enough to differentiate. As they have improved the 348 via the 355 to the 360, performance has gone up so much so that a 360 would be close if not faster than the Testarossa (and IMO a far superior car. Trying to make the Testarossa suit all markets including the GT market confused what the car was all about ...), thus no need for that model. Thus we have the mid-engined techco 360 and the v12 front engined, more relaxed GT ... thus 2 very separate markets. Makes sense to me. I do not think that any further versions of the 308 line will go any faster as it makes absolutely no sense. The current performance for both the GT's and the v8's is around the sensible limit for normal drive-able ROAD cars. If they make a v10 superfast F360 replacement ... they are going to leave a hole in the market ... perfect for a new v6 Dino ???? Pete | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
New member Username: Bighead Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lee, as the 328 evolved from the 308, so the same can be said of the 355:348. The 348 was a completely new car, and the 355 is an evolution thereof. Is the 355 better? In nearly every respect, but it's the same chassis. Most body panels can be swapped between the two. Suspension is improved, but brakes are the same. 355 engine is more powerful and complex, and it was a better shifter (and 6 v. 5 speeds). The interior is improved as well, but again, everything can be swapped if you really wanted to do it -- all the hardpoints are the same. Aerodynamics on the 355 are much improved, with the underbody tunnels generating some small degree of downforce. The 360 is another "new" car. It too will lead to a "successor" model in a couple of years. As for the 12 cylinder cars, as others have noted, this was done to better accomodate GT needs. The 550 is built off of the 456. Both are fairly heavy, and not really true "sports" or track cars, like the 360/355/348. Lots more room and comfort, though. A mid-engined setup, like the 8 cylinder cars and the TR/512TR/F512M require too many compromises -- not enough storage room, no way for 2+2 seating, etc. And by sharing a chassis and engine components between the 456 and 550, it's a lot cheaper for Ferrari. Lastly, why don't they produce a mid-v12 in a regular production? Simple (IMHO). A 12 cylinder engine is just too heavy and long. If you can get 420+ horsepower out of a v-8 (though without the torque, admittedly), why would you "need" a v-12? The mid-engined design is supposed to be for the "ultimate" in handling, and lighter weight always benefits that. If the buyer wants the traditional V-12 and the torque associated therewith, Ferrari would just as soon have them buy a 575 or the new 456. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob - I would change the wording of your categories slightly - the change would also solve your quandary re: where the 330GTC, 365 GTC, and 365GTC/4 fit in. I would say that at any one time, Ferrari produced a 2 seat super-performer 2 seat good-performer 2+2 The problem with 'big' vs. 'small' engine classification is that, for example, in 1967 the superperformer would have been the 4 cam, 6 carb, 3.3 liter 275GTB/4, and the good performer (or true Grand Touring car) would have been the 2 cam, 3 carb, 4 liter 330GTC. The spyder in the line-up was the 330GTS and the 2+2 the 330GT2+2. Without re-opening the 'is it a Ferrari' topic, I view Ferrari's development and creation of the Dino at that time as an experiment and not part of the mainstream product line. The Dino line morphed into the '2 seat good performer category' with the 308 GTB; the 'super performer' for that year being the Boxer. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4051 Registered: 12-2000 |
I don't know if anyone would agree, but I don't like to order the lineage of Ferrari models by number of cylinders or engine placement. What happens when the next "small" Ferrari is a 10? I think Ferrari is hard to organize because of all the customs and specials it's done over the years, but looking at the high produced Ferraris, I think you have 3 main categories... - 2 seat big engine - 2+2 seat - 2 seat small engine Spyders and Spiders have always been popular versions, but they have been used on all the above configurations. However, Ferrari always seems to have one for sale at one time or another because of the market demand for them. 2 seat big engine --- 575 '02+ 550 '96-'01 512 M '94-'96 512 TR '91-'95 Testarossa '85-'91 512 BBi '82-'84 512 BB '76-'81 365 GT4 BB '74-'76 365 GTB/4 '68-'73 275 GTB/4 '66-'68 275 GTB '64-'66 250 Lusso '62-'64 250 PF '59-'62 250 GT Ellena Coupe '57-'58 250 GT Boano Coupe '56-'57 2+2 Seat --- 456 '92+ Mondial (small engine) '81-'91 - 400/412 (big engine) '76-'89 GT4 (small engine) '74-'79 - 365 GT4 2+2 '72-'76 365 GT 2+2 '68-'71 330 2+2 '63-'68 330 America '63 250 GTE '60-'63 2 seat small engine --- 360 '99+ 355 '94-'99 348 '90-'95 328 '86-'89 308 QV '83-'85 308 i '80-'82 308 '75-'79 246 '69-'74 206 '66-'69 If you look at it this way there's almost a perfect lineage for each of the categories. There's now also a "super" Ferrari lineage of 288, F40, F50, and Enzo. You can repiece it together to the 250 GTO and street racers of the past. Where does everyone think cars like the 330 GTC and 365 GTC/4 should fit in? | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 389 Registered: 9-2001 |
At CI in 2001, Sergio Pininfarina was the guest speaker and he indicated that the switch to front engine on the 550 was primarily becuase it was a better layout for a GT car. (Interior space, cargo etc...) | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 455 Registered: 1-2002 |
If I may theorize on the change to front engine V12 question. In the 90's, Ferrari made the V8 the focus of new, exotic technology. Except for bigger, torqier motors, a mid engine V12 became redundant, so a switch to a traditional front V12 would be completely different and appeal to different customers. I don't think Lambo was much of a factor. 550's outsold Diablos by a large margin. This is all speculation on my part. Only Luca himself could give a definitive answer. Dave | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 656 Registered: 3-2002 |
Was it the 355 that Ferrari took on a promotional "drive around the world" to reverse peoples' perceptions about reliability? | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 177 Registered: 2-2003 |
The 355 is more than a "freshened" 348. The motor uses 5 valves per cylinder, and makes significantly more power. Also, much better shifter than the notorious 348. Similarly, the 355 has less understeer than the 348, and at the same time, significantly less of that pendulum oversteer of the 348. Most people would agree the 355 is a vastly improved car over the 348. | ||
| Eddie Lee (Lee168)
New member Username: Lee168 Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lee, your questions on lineage/succession of the Feraari models (8 and 12 cylinders) could possibly be answered with two words: Improvement and commercialization. In terms of question on factory's philosophy on 348 to 355, The above-referenced two words should explain it. IMO, competitions (NSX, Corvette, etc) played a major role in driving Ferrari's product planning and development programs. After all, you and I would be less interested in purchasing a 8 cylinder Ferrari that remains stagnant in terms of performance and technical development. In terms of the 12 cylinder placement question, Ferrari had made a philosophical switch back to the front engine placement on the 12 cylinder road cars, starting with the 550 Maranello. I believe this switch is based on several considerations: 1. Ferrari had traditionally placed the engine in the front of the car on its competition models and road cars. Obviously, there was a period of time this configuaration was changed to the mid-engine layout. Present Chairman Luca had made the determination to go back to the front engine layout on the 12 cylinder road cars for a very important reason: To provide more comfort and space, and possibly, to reflect the market desires. 2. The advent of technology on suspension/chasis development, etc. allowed the front engine layout to perform just as well as the mid-engine configuration, if not better. 3. Ferrari has, at least for now, decided to fundamentally change the placement of its 12 cylinder engine to the front to reflect the long, successful tradition of the past. I believe Enzo Ferrari had always believed that the "horse" should be in front of the cart, not behind it. The above is only my opinion and I'm sure that I haven't provided all the info you're looking for. However, there are numerous publications out there which will provide much more details and answers to your questions. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2119 Registered: 2-2001 |
as to the 512 to 550 change, Ferraris then new President longed for the days of the Daytona & 275 GTBs so he killed the line that started with the 365BB & took Ferrari back to front engine, same as virtually every other manufacturer, leaving the door wide open for lambo to snap up all the customers who want a mid engine V12 for under $300k. Smooth move,sphincter The 348 was the last car Ferraris ex Pres & the new Pres hated the 348 quality so he set about redesigning it. The 355 is basically a much improved 348. They redid the suspension, freshened the styiling The 360 is a completely different car from the 348 or 355. I think its Ferraris first unibody and its much more high tech than the 355 though I like the 355s looks much better Most other road Ferraris in the past are tube frame cars, a few like the F50 & Enzo have a Carbon fiber monocoque | ||
| Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member Username: Leepierce Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2003 |
I know my current models (70's on...) quite well and am getting to know the classics pretty well, too. Now I am working on trying to understand the thinking behind each, and one thing I haven't been able to figure out is the marketing/production philosophy behind the 355. I understand that through recent years, Ferrari typically produces one primary V8 (with spider and berlinetta versions), and one primary V12, with variations...engine front, engine mid, 2+2, etc.. And I know that these overlap. So, is the 355 just the natural successor to the V8 line which started, more or less, with the 308? Does it go 308 (GTB -> GTBi ->QV) leads to the 328 leads to the 348 leads to the 355 leads to the 360? Besides the obvious larger engine and significant cosmetic changes, what other philosophies did the factory incorporate into the 355 to differentiate it from the 348? Then, besides the obvious larger engine and significant cosmetic changes, what other philosophies did the factory incorporate into the 360 to differentiate it from the 355? Another factory philosophy question: why the switch from the 512 mid-V12 to the 550 front V12? They already had a front V12 in the 400/412/456 series...why two? Just to lose the rear seats and produce a prettier line? Why don't they produce a mid-V12 in a regular production car (I don't count the Enzo, though it's mid-engine right? These collectibles don't really capture my interest) Sorry so many questions...these have been distilled from the cauldron of Ferrari obsession swirling in my head since getting my 308. I'm finding that the deeper I go, the more depth there is. Scary. My wife concurs, believe me. |