| Author | Message | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just a comment: It was not stated that this was an 'As-Is' purchase until AFTER I raised the implied warranty question. In Massachusetts, the only legal dealership 'As-Is' deal is a 'Sold for parts only'. All other deals have level of implied and/or explicit warranty. Some of this even applies to private sales. Makes for a real PITA when you're trying to sell a project car. To get one car off of my hands w/o paying a recycler to haul it away, I ended up donating it to a college & taking a tax write-off. Would have made a nice project car. | ||
| J Dirk Carnahan (Dirk989)
New member Username: Dirk989 Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am selling my 308, sadly. Just bought a new Esprit and have to get rid of something. I am going to lose money. It has high miles and a salvage title so its not a real attractive buy. I've spent 2 years playing with it, tweaking it, repairing little problems and driving the heck out of it. When I was dumping money in it early on, I wondered the same as you. After I got past that point it honestly never bothered me again. I love that car and, like you, I know what has been fixed and just how well sorted out the car is. It is still a thrill to drive it and even a thrill to look at it. Now I want to cry when I'm selling it. Was the money worth it? What is it worth to get that much enjoyment out of a car? You can't match that with anything else. Yes, it was worth it. Even with the loss I'll take when/if it sells. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 459 Registered: 1-2002 |
Peter, I have just one bit of advice. If you have not already done so, I would check the health of the motor before putting in more money. Also, is this a dry sump euro motor? They are worth 5K extra, at least in good condition. If the motor is getting weak, I would advise selling it to someone who wants a project car and move on to something else. I have had 3 308's of various sorts. I think they are really neat cars, but they can be, in the words of my mechanic, "needy cars". Dave | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 787 Registered: 10-2001 |
You know, if you buy a car for say $15k, put $15k in to it and in 10 years sell it for say $25k (you may get quite a bit more than that too!) You just drove a Ferrari for 10 years for $5k! You can't do that with a Honda. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1994 Registered: 9-2001 |
The argument on whether to buy a fully sorted car for more or a car in need of service and repairs for less is subject to personal preferences. I traded my well sorted 17k miles 348 Spider for my 12.5k miles BB512i even. I knew the Boxer was in great shape but had no proof that the cam belts had been changed. I will end up having spent about $10k for a new clutch, a 30k major/cam belt service a few other odds and ends. But, I now know where I am with the car, that the service was done correctly and should be able to enjoy it for several years with no problems. (hopefully) The one year warranty from FOA for the service gives me some peace of mind as well. If i would have traded for a Boxer with receipts for a major service and clutch I would have had to put some cash in the deal, have had to trust that it was done, that it was done correctly and would not have had that one year warranty. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2002 |
Right. For resale value, you'll never get, dollar for dollar, what you put into the car for repairs--e.g. I couldn't sell mine for $38k even though that's what I have into it. You still have to factor in the history of your car is unknown until you started doing some work--granted, the most recent work history is the most critical. But to get in the higher range of resale value, the big picture has to be there--how many previous owners? Did they maintain or abuse the car? Did they skimp out or go the extra mile on service? People want to know where their car has been in 26 years. My car had $20k in documented work in the past 10k miles when I purchased it. That put it into the high end of the resale range, but not $20k over the median. There are wiser people here who could give you an idea, but my estimate after $16k of work would put you around $24k to $27k for a private sale, red, Euro, 308 GTB. 70k miles is driving down the range a bit. Reiterating, my opinion is that you'll have more to put in the car as you begin to drive it--you're battling both age and wear. On the other hand, At 70k, a lot should have already been replaced on the car! | ||
| Chuck Rine (Chuck348ts)
Junior Member Username: Chuck348ts Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter, I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were a "go after the dealer" person. I was just making a general statement agreeing with Martin. FWIW, although your car may not sell for as much as you have put into it, I would view my "investment" in it as having saved a classic automobile. There are many who can afford the price of entry, but fewer who are willing to spend what it takes to keep these classic cars in excellent condition. By your investment, you have added decades to the life of that 308 that will, down the road, provide a lot of enjoyment to future owners. That would make me feel good about whatever $$ I have put into the car. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 836 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter - looks like the general consensus around here is that you're in pretty good shape with it. Enjoy it and welcome to the chat line. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2003 |
TO ALL THAT MADE POSTS: Please understand that I am not bent out of shape over this issue! I could have purchased a 'well maintained' 308 that may have developed a different set of problems! Six years ago, I purchased a pristine '84 Rosso 308QV with excellent records. In the first six months, I dropped $10K into it. I am not of the mindset to go after the dealer, thats not my way of doing business with an 'As-Is' sale, only to see what the FChat community feels the value of the car may be estimated at when all of this work is fresh  | ||
| Chuck Rine (Chuck348ts)
Junior Member Username: Chuck348ts Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2001 |
I agree with Martin about going back to the dealers when things break. "As is" means "any problems are yours now". A 26-year-old car, or any out-of-warranty mechanical device for that matter, comes with no guarantees. If you want a warranty, buy a new car, or purchase a used car warranty. My car came with no warranty, and I had financially prepared myself, in advance, for major problems, including the dreaded belt break. Other than the common 348 exhaust ECU problem (which I fixed myself), no bad news after nearly two years. The time to go back to the dealer would be if you had just had the car serviced by the same dealer: for example, a timing belt service, and the belt broke 50 miles later. Then I think the dealer would owe you something (like an engine rebuild) after you shelled out $4K for such a service, regardless of the age of the car. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1166 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I myself have approximately $38k into my 78 308. Others have even more. It's pretty much just what it takes to do things right with a long-term perspective. << There you hit it..."long term perspective"..combined with using the car and enjoying it. If the car will just sit repairs are expensive, if one is using and enjoying the car the cost gets spread over both miles and time. Boats, Race Cars, Show Cars cost a whole lot more than Ferraris in cost per hour of enjoyment. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4053 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter, as for the value of the car: It has the value of the pleasure it gives you. If that is worth 30K to you (and I hope it is) have the work done and rive again, enjoy and stop looking for monetary value. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4052 Registered: 5-2001 |
Unless you have definete prove that the dealer was hiding this from you and covering it up there is nothing you can do! The car is 26 years old for crying out loud! You might have a waterpump that fails on you soon, or the batterie will die or the starter will not work or the ventilator will go. For all of you that think he should go to the dealer: When is a reasonable time for you passed that the consumer can not go after the dealer anymore? 2months, 5 months, a year, 3 years? Please tell me because that will greatly depend on my further involvement with Ferrari sales. As you can probably tell the expereince yesterday has really pi*sed me off. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4051 Registered: 5-2001 |
So you buy a car AS-Is with the right to inspect and you buy it without Warranty, you sign twice that you have no warranty expressed or implied and 2months later you go back to the dealer and want money! Okay, this is why this business sucks. Test it, test drive it, have a qualified person do a PPI. If you did and it was okay then why would you ask the dealer for money back. The reason why I am going of the deep end her eis I have just had that happen to me. The guy nogotiates the deal AS-IS and acknowledges he has no recourse, and buys the car accordingly then brings the car to a Ferrari dealer and has it taken apart and wants money from me. That just plain sucks! The car has 70K Miles on the clock, what the friggn hell do you expect. Nothing will go wrong for the next 10 years? If that happened driving of the lot it is one thing, 2 months later after driving the car for miles, you are sh*t out of luck! sorry for my ranting! | ||
| Peter Cyr (Pete04222)
New member Username: Pete04222 Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2002 |
I would tend to agree with Ken on this one. You yourself said how pleased you were with the car after the major service. Bite the bullet and fix the tranny and you will have an awesome car that you know the condition of. You got a cheap car and now you know why. I would take Verell's advice and seek info on consumer rights. You were aware that there was no service records and a major service was due, but there should be some sort of implied warranty that the transmission isn't going to blow up in 2 months. There may be something a lawyer could do. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 785 Registered: 10-2001 |
BUYING an exotic and MAINTAINING an exotic are two different things. Anyone can buy a 308 in the mid 20's but few people are willing to spend what it takes to keep it running, hence the cheap price of admission. Daytona's sell for what they do because LOTS of people are willing to spend that maintainence cost on them, while GT4's were always the cheapest Ferrari (Dino Frank) because even fewer people are willing to spend the upkeep than on a 308. Forget what you have in it; can you afford what it takes? If so, enjoy your car! If not, then sell it . | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 181 Registered: 10-2002 |
Verell's quoted range is indicative of how 308s are cheap if they're questionable, or can fetch a premium if they're sharp. In my opinion, Verell's range is a bit low, though. A very good, well-sorted out carbed 308 with a documented service history will fetch $25 to $30 with medium miles. As has been pointed out, you're in a little high with the tranny rebuild/replacement, but there is immense value in you knowing the car. I've found out myself, though, that what others say is true--in your first year of 308 ownership, you'll probably have to spend a fair amount of money sorting things out, even for a very well-maintained car. There's always things the previous owner knew about, but didn't want to fix for whatever reason, and hence decided to sell the car. I would also respectfully say that there may very well be additional work to be done on the car, even after your $32k. At some point, you need to evaluate the condition of the top end of the motor--I assume that you have had a valve adjustment in your major service, though. These are old cars--strange things go bad. Alternators, fuel pumps, radiator fan motors, door locks, rubber seals, rubber hoses, fuse boxes, horn compressors, blower motors, brake rotors, wheel bearings, exhaust components, etc. If you feel that you would become remourseful if you were to have $35, $37, or $40k into the car, you might want to look into other alternatives. I myself have approximately $38k into my 78 308. Others have even more. It's pretty much just what it takes to do things right with a long-term perspective. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 624 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter, Well, at this point you're 'a little bit pregnant'... First off I'd discuss the trans. problem with the dealer you bought the car from 2 mo. ago. IMHO he has some responsibility, possibly a lot of responsibility depending on your state's auto consumer laws. At bare minimum I'd think he'd split the repair costs. It'd probably be worth researching your state's laws on implied useability befor you see him. ie:what are your rights? A phone call to the state consumer affairs office, or maybe even just a visit to their web site might be helpful. If you have a regular attorney, a phone call would probably be worth the consultation fee. Unfortunately, what may complicate the picture is the 'transmission adjustment' your mechanic performed. ----------------------------- While these cars aren't investments, a well sorted out & maintained one will hold it's value far better than any new conventional car. As to what the car's currently worth, I'd start by taking a look at the Ferrari Market Letter asking price index, then take off some % to arrive at a avg. selling price. 70K miles is on the high side for a 308 & should be factored in. My impression is that carb'd 308s are selling in the $16K-$26K range. I only know the actual sale prices of a small handfull of 308s, so I could be out in left field. I agree with Tyler & Dr. Tommy. You now know what shape your car is in, that's worth a lot. ----------------------------- On the technical side, I remember a thread discussing trans rebuild costs sometime last year. Possibly it was Ric Rainbolt who made some statements about rebuild pricing. I haven't had the dubious pleasure of having to tear into a 308 gearbox. Another option would be to investigate a used trans from a reputable place like T.Rutlands, or some of the other places that part out 308s. Hope this is useful. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 982 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ummm... Also, research that gearbox repair. Someone on this forum has mentioned complete gearbox overhauls for around $3K. I forget, but somewhere in the MidWest, as I recall. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 832 Registered: 5-2001 |
exactly | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 628 Registered: 12-2001 |
Peter, don't sweat it. These cars are not investments. While I think it is wise to buy the best car you can, you have a great deal of peace of mind in this car now. No, I don't think you could get out of it what you have "invested", but who cares. You now have a nice 308 with the mechanicals sorted out. Drive the hell out of it and enjoy it! | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi Mitchell Good comment, bad news, yes, but I feel if I am within 10-20% of the resale value, I'm OK. I am hopeful to have a real 'gem' in 3-4 years with additional cosmetic surgery, but yes, I'm swallowing a tough pill at present ...Hell..You can't take it with you! | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 830 Registered: 5-2001 |
First I would drop the term "investment". Financially, no, it's not worth it and I am sure you're aware of this by now. HOWEVER, If you are like me and a few others on this site then yes it can be worth it if this is the car you have always wanted and plan on keeping it. Sure you could have bought a more expensive car and probably saved some money in the long run but then again maybe you wouldn't have. Who knows. You could have NOT bought a Ferrari and really saved some money. If you are happy with the car who cares? I have a 84 that I have spent tons of money on for things I wanted and I plan on spending tons more. I'll never get the money back even if I did sell it (which I'm not ever going to do). But it's all worth it to me. I love that damn car and I have a little savings account that I use for blowing money into it. It makes me happy and that is why I do it. The short answer is it is your call to make as to weather it's worth it or not for yourself. If your keeping the car, sure it can be worth it. If you're selling it, you're screwed. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 870 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think that it doesn't matter whether it's a Ferrari, Corvette, or Plymouth; if you have to PAY somebody to do all the necessary repair work, you are really going to run up a big bill. I think that's what alot of non-car people end up doing with a collector car which SHOULD be just a hobby. Instead, they end up spending MAJOR money on the project and then realize they are in too deep. And usually too deep to back out because pride will not let many people sell out at a financial loss. But project cars that need alot of work should best be left to guys with good mechanical skills and well equipped workshops with plenty of tools. Otherwise, be ready to pay the piper! | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 506 Registered: 11-2001 |
Nope. This is the reason why it is better to buy a $25K well sorted out car, than a $15K car that you will spend $30K more to sort out. Sorry to bear the bad news. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2003 |
I purchased my '77 308 two months ago. It was extremely clean (red & black)and seemed to drive very well. 70K miles with no records. I paid $15.5K from a dealer in Marin,CA. Prior to a scheduled major service, the 4th gear would not hold (often) and would slip out while driving. I had to hold it to keep it from disengaging. The major service was $8.5K that included a full carb rebuild, a few pricey parts, etc. When I picked it up (with an adjustment on the gearbox), it ran like a bat out of hell. I was very pleased, but the gear problem was worse with a grinding noise from the bell housing. I brought the car back (to my mechanic, an extremely top-notch Ferrari guru in Livermore,CA). It appeared that the gearbox may be 'toast' and has seen a fair amount of heat in the past. At this time, it looks like I may be in to this job for up to $8K, if the sync's can not be fixed externally. At this point, I will be into the car for about $32K. With all of this fresh work completed and additional cosmetic work I will do, I seek the opinion of others that may feel the car is worth my investment to date.....Correct? I look forward to replies. Peter |