| Author | Message | ||
| eli (ali) Latif (Ninja_eli)
New member Username: Ninja_eli Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just to add my experience: 550 is ridiculously fast over 70mph. In a recent "test" 2 360's and a 355 Spider(mine), can confirm that the 550 is in a league of its own in outright acceleration and speed terms over 70mph. All 4 cars were similar to 70mph (550 even got wheelspin hindering its progress at the early stage) but after 70mph and towards 150, it was so fast that the V8s simply felt unbelieveably and painfully slow. I was ringing the life out of the 355 but could only watch the 550 disappear (quickly) into the scenery. The 360s were more or less alongside me. The 360s and 355 were not that different in straightline speed to be honest, although the 360 had a slight edge. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 256 Registered: 2-2003 |
I personally cannot imagine tracking either the Turbo or the 550 with the stability aids on. MUCH slower that way, for anyone who is even reasonable as a driver. What I think Dennis meant was that the Porsche, with AWD, requires much less input to drive over a twisty road quickly (e.g., 8/10s) and is much more forgiving than the 360 Modena or the 550. It is the Ferraris' very nature, (demanding involvement) that makes them so much fun for all of us. The Porsche is calm and technical, either Ferrari is violent and passionate. I prefer the latter! | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 232 Registered: 6-2002 |
Uh, granted I've never taken a 550 around a track, but why would anyone leave any 'stability aids'(that never are) on while driving anywhere above about 6/10ths? They all savagely cut the power when you need to use it most, to plant the rear end and settle the car. I turn it off in every car I drive, street or track. Even wired one (non fcar) to turn on with traction control disabled, you have to ENable it if you want it! (that way the car is always in the state I want it in, I can't forget.) *I* am the traction control! ;) Best! Ben. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 909 Registered: 1-2002 |
I agree with the comments on the 550's ASR system. It is very crude and abrupt...and S-L-O-W to react. I suspect that the 575's system is much smoother & quicker, the result of technology's advances since the 550 was originally designed in 1994-1995... I leave mine on in street driving for obviousl safety. But on the track, once tires, brakes, and driver are warmed up, it is turned off. There, it is a huge liability, since its reaction time invariably cuts power just at the point of the corner that I need it most to settle the rear end...  | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2001 |
I've driven a number of cars with their own versions of PSM but the Porsche 996tt system has them all beat. It's the least intrusive and most effective of them all. The 550's is primitive compared to it. Of the course, the 550 has other advantages.... I drove the 550 to the Porsche dealer to pick up a part today and the car was immediately surrounded by the sales force, mechanics and erstwhile Porsche customers. While I appreciate the engineering that goes into the P-cars, they simply don't excite the way a Ferrari can either visually or on the road. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 897 Registered: 11-2001 |
i agree that ASR on the 550 is far more "aggressive" than PSM on the 996TT. it's not as bad as DSC on the M5, thank g-d, but it's on that side of "annoying" IMO. the PSM on the 996TT is extremely well done. you can actually toss the car (a little bit) before it shuts you down. just enough to make you really appreciate PSM :-) we've still got leftover winter sand on the roads here, and every time i leave my driveway in teh 550 and punch it the damn ASR light kicks on and i have to yawn while it gets its act back in gear. of course as jeffrey points out, the beast will bite if you're not careful, so i just leave it turned on generally. doody! | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2001 |
I agree Jeff. I drove my 996TT and 550 on back to back days at Laguna Seca. I was timed at several seconds per lap faster in the Porsche. I think it's because the ASR system is inferrior to PSM. I could not lay down the power to the 550 coming out of the last corner before the main straight unless the car was absolutely pointed straight otherwise, the ASR would cut the throttle severely and cost me time. | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2001 |
Both cars are terrifyingly fast but there's no doubt in my mind that I'm faster in the 996tt than in the 550 off the track. I've never compared them back to back on the same track on the same day so I can't directly compare them. It's a little puzzeling too, for while I always pay attention when I'm driving, I'm always more alert when I'm driving the 550 (maybe because it's arrest-me-red). But I guess because I know that the Porsche is much more forgiving I'm willing to drive it closer to the edge on deserted twisties. I've been bitten by the 550 a couple of times: nothing serious but enough to up the adreneline levels a couple of 100%. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 251 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yep, Dennis, you've probably got a very good point there. I'm not a fan of the stability stuff either, but on a real road, with real drivers, you're probably right. Also, a small mistake in a 360 or 355 dumps you off the power curve, while a similar goof in the 996 Turbo isn't a big prob. (encountered this when moving up from atlantics to f-5000 based can am many years ago; Torque, the great equalizer!!) | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2003 |
Uh, EFWUN, I was agreeing with you regarding the 550 v. 360/355.... As for the 996 turbo v. Ferraris, take another gander at my post -- "the 360 is a wonderful, wonderful machine, but the 996tt is probably the fastest car in the REAL world -- meaning that it is so competant and confidence inspiring, any driver short of Fangio is probably faster in it at REAL WORLD limits than in something like a 360. :-)" I wasn't talking about a racetrack. A professional racer like Steve Millen playing with other people's cars on a racetrack like Thunderhill might result in the 360 being faster, but that's not what I'm referring to (nor were you, originally, as you said "twisty road"). I'm talking about a fun Sunday drive on public roads. I'm actually not a huge fan of the 996 Turbo, prefering a GT2 or GT3, but its AWD and electronic stability management probably give it a significant edge in the real world (despite detracting from the driving experience). vty, --Dennis | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mitch, delicacy of steering input is a given when discussing any decent driving; ham-fisted inputs overcome traction. I'm talking about the method of "rotating" a formula car into a tight, e.g., 90 degree corner on street circuit with concrete barriers. One approaches a little hot, and then with some rear brake bias dialed, you input a bit too much steering, and as the rear begins to "rotate" around, you pick up the throttle aggressively and exit with a fair amount of oversteer before catching the car. This is NOT a technique that is rewarded anywhere else on a track, even with a delicately balanced formula car. Delicacy of touch and smoothness of steering input are assumed, they are very basic to driving anything, from karts to Indy cars. Save the condescending tone for driver's ed. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 409 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think dave is useing the word 'rotating' in the sense that steering input has to be both firm and delicate at the saem time. Firm to get enough steering angle so the car begins to rotate, delicate in that if too much steering angle is input the front tires are overloaded and yaw acceleration is decreased. This is exactly the opposite issue with a F355, while backing down from braking zone, feeding any steering input will cause very fast acceleration in yaw. Waiting until you are (almost) fully off the brakes will decrease this sensitivity considerably. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 245 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, I'll post the specs Monday or Tuesday. I have the car corner weighted using weight plates to account for my (now considerable) avoir dupois in the driver's seat. I'm thinking this really isn't necessary, but old beliefs die hard!! (also, with the softer, non-Fiorano springs, you may need to carry a bit more ride height) Dennis, I'm speaking from test results, specifically Car and Driver, which have the 550 reaching 150mph in 22 and change, while the 360 does it in 28 and change. There is also a German mag (name escapes me) that has very similar specs. I'm also speaking from practical experience; on a road near here, my 550 punches through 7,500 in 5th at a place where my 355s were still in 4th and a friend's 360 is just changing up to 5th. Finally, my 360 v. 996 Turbo opinion refers to that Road and Track article "Sibling Rivalry" where both the 360 and the 550 were quicker than the 996 Turbo with Steve Millen driving at Thunderhill, according to the Engineering Editor, a fairly representative track out west. In my brief experience in the Turbo, I found it to have major oversteer on braking up to an apex, followed by major power understeer leaving corners. Perhaps you know the car better than I do; my impression was that the mildly understeeting 360 carried far more momentum through corners, and was a significantly more settled car to drive. I would have to believe that a well-driven Turbo wouldn't see which way a well-driven 360 went, particularly at a place like Lime Rock. Again, just my opinion. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2003 |
Almost forgot -- Neal, I'll be instructing at the SCDA event at Lime Rock on Monday, assuming the snow melts in time. Weather forecast is positive. I'll probably spend Monday with Charlie Vest in his silver 308. I haven't decided what car to take, as I'm (hopefully) finally picking up the 355 from the shop tomorrow (after the 3M film install), so I may be driving my wife's speed yellow 996 instead. Come by and say hello (both cars have yellow "Girlie-Girl Racing" stickers on the side window). Oh, and EFWUN, re your remark about the 360 being faster than a "Turbo" on a twisty road (I'm presuming you're referring to a Porsche 996 twin turbo), I wouldn't be so sure... the 360 is a wonderful, wonderful machine, but the 996tt is probably the fastest car in the REAL world -- meaning that it is so competant and confidence inspiring, any driver short of Fangio is probably faster in it at REAL WORLD limits than in something like a 360. :-) vty, --Dennis | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2003 |
I have to agree with EFWUN here. Race tracks and twisty roads aside, in a straight line, with two casual drivers playing on a public road, a 550 should outpull a 360 or 355, all other things being equal. Just grabbing an article out off a shelf, the Jan 1997 issue of R&T tests four contemporary Ferraris in Europe: 456GTA, 550 Maranello, 355 Spider and F50. The testing lists 0-100 mph times of 12.7, 10.5, 12.7 and 8.0 seconds, respectively. Now, keep in mind that the 355 was a spider version, and the 456 was an automatic. I think that the 355's weight advantage is offset by the horrible aerodynamics of the convertible; and, as many have pointed out, the 550 has a boatload of torque. Also, keep in mind when reading test results, most times recorded for tests like 40-120 mph are ROLLING tests, often done in top gear without downshifting. Hence, a car with more torque will almost always win, especially if its top gear ratio is lower. But this would be different in the real world, if drivers downshifted, etc. LWR, I can't say as I'm surprised by your experience, but do keep in mind that gear ratios play a big part -- depending on the speed you were driving, one car may be in a more meaty part of the powerband, and/or one driver may be shifting more than the other. As for the 360: The Jan 2001 issue of R&T compares the two, but lists only 0-60 mph times. 360: 4.3 sec.; 550: 4.7 sec. One may postulate that the 360's initial advantage, due to better weight distribution and lighter weight, will rapidly diminish and eventually be lost to the 550's power, but we don't know. FWIW, R&T does provide, in a different article, a 0-100 mph time of 10.2 seconds for a 360 Modena, slightly faster than the 10.5 seconds needed for the 550 in the earlier test. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 895 Registered: 1-2002 |
Efwun, please help me: I want to lower my 550 (that does not have the Fiorano package). What is are the Euro ride height numbers? And when you lowered yours, did you feel the need to have it cornerweighted & balanced again? Thanks, Dave | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 238 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, perhaps I'm thinking of rotating in the wrong sense, e.g., the way you pitch a single seater into a sharp corner on a street circuit. (The arch at Trois Rivieres as example). I'd hate to get the 550 "rotating" that way!! I've found best success by driving in to the point of understeer, then exchanging front yaw for rear yaw with the gas. I've found the 550 has much less understeer than a 996 Turbo, for instance. I've also got Fiorano, and I've dropped the nose about 18mm from the Euro ride height, while leaving the rear at Euro. Seems to dial in just a bit more power oversteer. What is happening at Lime Rock on Monday?? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 893 Registered: 1-2002 |
I agree that the 550 will walk away from the 355 after about 35 or 40 MPH, in a straight line, properly driven & shifted. On the track at TWS, which has a ~~half mile front straight, I can pull dang near any street car short of a well-driven 993 or 996 Twin Turbo, presuming I get a good launch out of the last corner. A well driven Viper coupe will give me a run for my money, FYI. But in the curves, on street tires, my money is on the 355. The 550 is delightfully balanced, but is a capital-H HANDFULL. Its 4000+ lb weight, with fuel & driver means ya need a whole lotta braking going going into anything other than fast sweepers, 'cause you're gonna get loads of understeer if you try to carry too much momentum. So rotating the car quickly is key, but it takes much more work, attention, and proper speed modulation to do it right as compared to the 355 or 360. Of course, it is always a point-counterpoint debate in my head at each corner exit: do I (a) roll on the power & get a great launch down the next straightaway, or do I (b) have a freakin' BLAST by turning all that HP & torque into hugely-entertaining power oversteer (since I always turn off the traction control in the dry)? The answer is obviously (a) if there is traffic, etc...but I must admit to indulging in (b) with t clear track. Did a bunch of it yesterday!!! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 2925 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yeah...! i'm gonna be a voucher...!  | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 237 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank, I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse, for God's sake, keep up with my 355 on a straight stretch, rolling from about 40mph. Didn't walk him until 100+, found out he had REALLY big turbos with mamu boost. Cheap, e.g., $7,500 worth of motor work, some water injection, and those things can rock and roll! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ghost, the damn thing of it is, what I know about computers would fit loosely in the 355's "glovebox." My daughter has a digital camera, we'll probably try to put something up soon. Also, 355s are in the past tense, had '98 #111607, and '95 #100073. Now have '01 550 # 126531. I'll be taking DES for a ride soon, he can vouch for me. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2014 Registered: 9-2001 |
All jokes aside, there is a guy here in the Atlanta area, Jim Weed of Dr. Hondaa with a hopped up Honda Civic that I have seen take Porsches and Ferraris at Road Atlanta. He's such a good driver that he gets such a lead in the curves that the faster cars can't catch up in the straights. Of course his Civic is stripped down to nothing with racing slicks. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 100 Registered: 8-2002 |
EFWUN, I think its high time that you posted pictures of your beautiful (and multiple) F-Cars in your profile. Regards. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 234 Registered: 2-2003 |
Taek, you know what really scares me, is those electric blue Civic 2-doors, with those tricked out wheels, those blue inner fender lights, and those chain-link license plates. Those are more than likely the fastest production cars on the planet. When I see them in my E55, I hang my head low, hoping they won't notice and embarrass me. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 233 Registered: 2-2003 |
Neal, you may have a very good point. (I'd still think my 550 would be more fun than my 355, but that's just an opinion) My perspective comes from an ancient history in down and dirty formula car racing, here and in Europe, where the only issue was lap time. Nevertheless, in answer to the poster of this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that the 550 is significantly faster from 40-120mph than the 355 and the 360. | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2002 |
i am about to enter my 3rd year of track events monday at limeroc and ive learned that ultimate speed matters little. the issue is which car is more fun to drive fast? and that means to me, the lighter car not nec the more powerful one. ive found my 348 spider with manual steering is more fun than other more powerful cars ive been in on track. of course street driving has other priorities like comfort, etc but on track id take the 355 over 550 and maybe vice versa on street. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 213 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, EFWUN, it depends on how many stickers you have. I got burned by a Civic when I was in San Francisco driving my Porsche C4. I have since added a powered by V-TEC sticker and never drop the cabrio top. I have yet to be beaten by any civics, but those V6 accords are a different story. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 232 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes, Honda's Civic DX is notably faster than either the 360 or the 550, particularly at horsepower tracks! | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Junior Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2003 |
I out ran a 550 just the other day.....I was in a 1998 Honda Civic Dx. After market bumpers, side skirts, cool wheels, and the neat clear tail light assemblies.........and my stereo was wailing.....I think the stereo added at least 100 hp alone!! | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 231 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well put, Lou. The 360 carries momentum through the corners better than the 550, less braking necessary, and easier to put the power back on leaving the corners. That said, the 550 is only marginally slower in corners, and has enormous straight-line grunt. Comparable, equally well driven cars, I'd pick the 360 at Slime Rock, but on Route 684 on the way up? Forget it, the 550 will drive away into the sunrise. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 130 Registered: 4-2001 |
Well driven 550's generally can open the gap from my 360 accelerating out of corners at Lime Rock, Moroso, Sebring and the Glen. I seem to brake a bit deeper and can get through the twisties at least as fast but they seem to have more grunt down the straights especially up the hill towards the bus stop at the Glen. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 229 Registered: 2-2003 |
The 360 is marginally quicker than the 550 over a representative track. I'm talking about straight line, and Jeff, I don't care what 360 owners say, this isn't a question of opinions. Thanks for the throw-away "dime a dozen" reference, but these magazines instrument the cars and report the results, plain and simple. I know Pat Bedard, and an familiar with Dennis Simaniatis of Road and Track; these guys aren't just printing crap. 550s are MUCH faster than people realize; most are not bought by a hard-core crowd, and don't get caned like the V-8 cars do. That said, on a twisty road, the 360 is probably the car of choice, a little quicker than the 550, significantly quicker than a Turbo, by example. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 211 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, I think Tino is referring to drag races not being the Ferrari spirit. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2001 |
Well the 550 Maranello has much more torque , it doesnt surprise me at all that its that faster than the 355 which was never known as a torqueous( sp ? ) car.. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2012 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari spirit Tino ? I believe the 250, 275, 330 and 365 are the ones that defined the Ferarri spirit before the little V8 road cars were even thought of. And if you know F1 history, then you will know that the F1 cicuits of the past were basically long straight aways(drag strips) connected by sweeping turns. The new curvy chicane filled tracks of today are recent safety related changes. The 550/575s are more like those than the 360 is wouldn't you say ? | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2002 |
I was talking about the 360 statement, but as far as sources, they are a dime a dozen and you can find one to say whatever you want. What were the conditions, who were the drivers blah blah blah Lets see what the 360 owners have to say.I would bet they don't agree. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 256 Registered: 8-2001 |
Same driver, sames conditions, same road course or hill climb, I'd put my money on the 360. (On an airport runway, I'd put my money on the 550, but that's not Ferrari's spirit) | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 228 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jeff, I loved my 355s nearly as much as my wife, but that doesn't mean they can run with the 550. Remember you're talking about nearly double the torque, with actually better coefficient of drag and similar frontal areas. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 227 Registered: 2-2003 |
22.1 v. 28.3 , Source, Car and Driver 21.9 v. 29.0 Source, German Mag, run internet search. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2002 |
Six seconds quicker to 150 than a 360? No chance.. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 226 Registered: 2-2003 |
We're talking the 550 is more than 6 seconds quicker to 150mph than the 360, and quite a bit more than that quicker than the 355 | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Junior Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 225 Registered: 2-2003 |
My 550 is significantly quicker after about 40mph than either my '98 or '95 355s. Also significantly faster to 150mph than the 360. If you have the "temerity" to really gas the car up, it is viciously fast. | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2002 |
Don't forget to add cohones size in the calculation. | ||
| LWR (Lwr)
New member Username: Lwr Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2001 |
Being a 550 owner I guess I should know this, but is the 40-120mph performance of the 550 significantly different to a 355 F1? I was driving through some twisties yesterday following a 355 F1 Spyder. We both engaged in some over taking maneouvres that required full commitment. We'd be overtaking with me following in a 550, and I would run out of road so quickly I almost felt like I needed to overtake the 355 too I was amazed that my 550 seemed so much quicker than the 355 in the 40-120mph range. I know on paper the 550 has more power, but in the 40-120mph range, is the 550 that much quicker than a 355 F1? |