| Author | Message | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 401 Registered: 9-2001 |
I should have said safe harbor...Al Queda money comes from everywhere - I assume most of it from legitimate businesses. (Bin Laden may be a terrorist, but he is not an idiot in business terms.) As for ethnic cleansing, seems everyone has done it at one point or another (US included), most have graduater to a higher form of living. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 135 Registered: 7-2002 |
JMG, I think you have the two countries mixed up. Saudi Arabia is where the Al Queda money comes from. We gave Iraq the chemicals and encouraged them to lob it over to Iran and Iran did the same to them. And purging of ethnics, hell Saudia did that hundreds of years ago. | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 400 Registered: 9-2001 |
Just thought I would throw another log onto the fire...don't remember the Saudis killing their athletes either. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/ | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 399 Registered: 9-2001 |
Lack of alcohol and movies is fine...that is their way of life. Attacking neighbors with chemical weapons, funding terrorists and purging ethnics is another story. Iraq wins this one hands down. (And yes I have travelled extensively in the middle east...not my cup of tea but then again most places outside of the US are not but I enjoy them for what they are - even the middle east.) - JMG | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2003 |
Saudi definitely most repressive and tribal of any where in the world I've been. Even the Wendy's was divided. Bahrain is great - the Arab Switzerland - agree that the Diplomat had the place. Miss the schwarmas in Manama souk. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2002 |
Egypt is really great... Its 80 degrees pretty much every day, you can go to the red sea or the mediterranean and scuba dive/snorkel... Pyramids, valley of the kings, it really is a great place, check it out | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 134 Registered: 7-2002 |
I use to stay at the Diplomat. I still have some of the towels I "acidentally" packed in my suitcase! | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 276 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dubai is pretty good....Nice hotels, and I liked Egypt, the Pyramids really are awe inspiring and I'm a scuba diving nut, so the Red Sea really does it for me. Next time you're in Bahrain, go to the top floor of the Diplomat hotel....they usually have a pretty good cabaret (best hotel is definately the Meridien) | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think Bahrain is OK. Expensive but at least women can work and drive cars. And, they have beer! | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 275 Registered: 3-2001 |
The first time I ever went to Saudi, Disney had just released the cartoon, Beauty & the Beast ......I had bought a British newspaper from the hotel gift shop (everything is censored), and it had an ad for the movie, which was a scene from the ball....In other words Beauty was in a strapless dress.... the Religious Police had used white sticky tape to cover up a cartoon character's shoulders!!!! If you get your kicks from a cartoon character I think the problem is a little more serious than having impure thoughts......The place is the pits | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jason, Then you know what I'm talking about. I would say Saudi Arabia is BY FAR the most repressive government in the world. The is vertually NO freedom. God help you if you are got with a copy of any magazine with women depicted! As an infidel you are automatically wrong on ever account. When I was in Iraq they had Catholic, Protestant churches. I did not see any Jewish temples but I think there are jews living there. Hell, even in Pakistan there is a degree of religious and other freedoms. So if we truly want to help the oppressed people we should take over Saudia. And, they have MORE OIL! | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 274 Registered: 3-2001 |
Bob, I've spent time in Saudi, Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait & Egypt.....I'd definately agree that Saudi is the worst (Riyad is one of the most oppressive places on the planet....the Religious Police are sh*ts)....I found Saudi bigotted and hypocritical....Prayers five times a day, no alcohol etc etc, then on Thursday afternoon you see a procession of cars across the causeway to Bahrain and it's booze & hookers all weekend long!!! I've actually been to Abadan in Iran, which was on the news last weekend (it was the place that they thought the cruise missiles had gone astray....which turned out to be iraqi missiles fired at Iran). I was visiting the oil refinery in Abadan and this place was sooo hot, anyway, the Iranians wanted me to see the state of their spares, so they took me to this corrugated steel building and the heat was unbelievable, a real sweat box...whilst inside I see there are small holes everywhere...I comment that this is a good way to get some ventilation thru the building, to which they laugh and inform me that the holes aren't for ventilation but are bullit holes from the Iraqis who like to take pot shots at them from across the river bank.....I'd seen enough, time to leave!! | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2002 |
Has anybody here actually been to Iraq or any Arab countries? I have spent LOTS of time in the Middle East. Iraq wasn't as bad as most people seem to think. The WORST was Saudia Arabia. Now that's a repressive society. NO ALCOHOL, NO MOVIES, NO FREEDOM. You literally cannot do the fun things you would normally do anywhere in the world. Women and men are kept apart (unless you can prove you are married), shops are closed during the proscribed prayer times etc. etc. By contrast Iraq is westernized. You can go shopping, eating, to movies, museums (with or without women) and at the same time feel relativly safe. Of course you can do all that in Pakistan but it is VERY unsafe for westerners. OK, I know Sadamm has crushed any oposition in his country (so has Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Algeria, etc. etc.), but when I was there I just didn't see the everday person clamering for a new government. I did see everyday people in Indonesia, Algeria, Eqypt, and Pakistan wanting to have the ability to change their governments. If I had to pick a country to live in the Middle East (They are all shitty including Israel)Iraq would not be the worst for freedom (Saudi Arabia is). My 2 cents. Bob | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 472 Registered: 1-2002 |
Can we all have a virtual hug now! DAve | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 298 Registered: 11-2002 |
No problem man. I have no hard feelings over anyone on this topic. We all have our points of view on this. I myself, have some pretty strange statements, but thats how I see it, and you just have to accept it. Like I respect yours. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1100 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ricky: This is the site: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/23/IN92660.DTL | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2003 |
Excellent last line, Jonas. I owe you an apology re: Denmark and the Nazis. I am ashamed that I had forgotten the courageous actions of the Danish people. I don't agree with the majority of what you've said, (despite the fact that I'm no fan of Bush), but your country's decency is beyond reproach and I apologize for any "anti-Danish" comments!! | ||
| Mark (Marvellous_mark)
New member Username: Marvellous_mark Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2002 |
Im making no comment on this apart from it made me laugh. Worth a read... http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,882459,00.html | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 913 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, good one!! Your last line is truly funny!!! Jeff, excellent points. Military people on both sides are giving up their lives & safety. I am actually very concerned for the safty of captured coalition servicemen; the fact that Iraq TV and those scumbag pigs at Al Jazzeera are showing hourly film clips of a few of our guys with bullet holes in their foreheads will do nothing but further the resolve of the coalition, and turn many of those opposed to this war in its favor---a major miscalculation by Arab media, IMO. That said, as Jeff also points out, none of this can be enjoyable for the oppressed (for now) residents of Baghdad... | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 172 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi all. Whatever the reasons, the popularity, the public feeling about this war, let's give all our thoughts to the captured and missing servicemen and their families. Also to the 'man in the street' in Iraq who has to live through this. These comments are mine and not necessarily representative of the Company for whom I work. This is a private comment. Beautiful, sunny weather here !! It should be snowing around now ! JH | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2001 |
Mark, I have no intention of debating the merits of higher education with you, but your definition of gullible is far too specific...it simply means as defined by Webster's Dictionary 1: easily deceived or tricked 2: easily tricked because of being too trusting Jonas "You are right, you have been struck by terrorism. But we haven't. Not a single country in Europe" By all means furnish an opinion, but please try and base it on fact. I think you'll find there are several countries in Europe that have been struck by terrorism Spain & ETA France & Algerian Extremists Britain & IRA Germany & Red Army Faction Italy & Red Brigade | ||
| Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member Username: Mlambert890 Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Gullible" essentially means that someone believes something which *you* believe is false. Higher education, I think, generally gives people the arrogance to assume that THEY know the way of things and can safely pass judgement that everyone ELSE is gullible. In the end, all idealogues are full of $hit and no story has the convenient, one-sided explanation that the idealogue would have you believe. This war is neither exclusively about oil nor exclusively about liberating Iraqis from a brutal dictator. No real world human action is soley motivated by such simple, one-dimensional, factors. Whether or not this action was justified is something we can never really know since we have now gone down the path of engaging in it. That won't stop the intellectual elite from turning on the hindsight and debating motive, from their comfortable partisan positions, for the next 100 years though. The only thing certain is that all of these circumstances are sure to be repeated again and again as long as humans are breathing air... At the end of the day, Sadaam IS a vicious bastard and the world will be better without him. Those who have found that their hatred of Bush (or genuine anti-war feelings) are causing them great distress during this time of conflict, can just fall back on whatever moral relativism was able to give them comfort as 800,000 Rwandans and 1,000,000 Cambodians died not so long ago. I have come to understand that all human action is motivated by self-interest and even good intentions are really based on personal bias. So the Rwandans and Cambodians really had no chance at all. Luckily for the Iraqis (who WILL be better off in the long run), they have been found more worthy of saving and, by extension, arguing about. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Jonas, Everyone tends to look at the world through lenses colored by personal experience. Two years ago, we would not be taking this action, but we have been stung by terrorism and the stark realization that WE are targets has really sunk in. We know that our borders are very porous and we cannot keep terrorists out (with or without bio weapons) so we must go after them where they live. You may think this is Bush's war, it is not. He could not do a thing without our support which runs about 2/3 in our country." You are right, you have been struck by terrorism. But we haven't. Not a single country in Europe. And I think that has something to do with it. We are not afraid to be victims to terror here in Denmark, because it has never happened. That is also the explanation for the lack of security around our Statsminister you talked about. We don't need to have bodyguards around our coutry leaders, cuz' there are safe. Then we had that activist, but besides that. They have found a factory? - But is it used? And did they find weapons? If they did, my bad and I apologize. You know there's something wrong with the world when: The best rapper is white, the best golfer is black, France is accusing the US of Arrogance and Germany does not want to go to war.  | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2001 |
Rikky, Higher education doesn't make you more liberal....just less gullible to bullsh*t | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Art, do you have a link to the statistics? I don't doubt you, I would just like to see them. It is kinda of funny, the higher education seems to have a real liberalizing (is this a word?) effect on people. I don't think it is because, "oh they learn that it is the right way" or anything like that... Most teachers are liberal, and it seems to me as though they are imprinting their political views into others... Just my opinion, though | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1098 Registered: 6-2001 |
DAve: Take a look at this for a more reasoned approach to the alleged chemical weapons issue: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&ncid=736&e=4&u=/ap/20030324/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_chemical_plant | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1097 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dave: I never said that it was 100%, but the percents are different for the various age groups that I have cited. I have heard the Fox news report. However, it is not verified (which apparently didn't stop Fox from reporting it) and even Rumsfeldt (sp) when asked didn't indicate that as of 11:30am today that we had found any Weapons of Mass destruction. Maybe Fox is right, maybe not. Let's see how this shakes out before we may any pronouncements. As to the profiling: take a look at the SF Chronicle which did the reporting on the demographics. By the way, it was too early to start today when I wrote that. Maybe a little later? Having said that, there is a difference in how we perceive these issues, and the divisions are according to our education, race, sex, and age. Doesn't mean there can't be a guy under 30 with a high school education whose against the war, nor an order guy, with a college education whose in favor. Statistics 1A. Regards Art | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 911 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas is right--he never jabbed me for being a poor typist--I jabbed myself! Jonas & Art are right: the Danes acted VERY honorably during WWII. The did not act like the Vichy French. Jonas, I hope my comments previously did not come across like I thought differently. If so, I apologize, because I truly recognize the sacrifice made by many Danes to resist the Nazis. That said, Jonas & Art, read this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81935,00.html And I suspect that there will be MUCH more of this coming out over the next few weeks. So, are you guys satisfied? Or will you only acknowledge this FACT when you are asphyxiating to death on the evidence?? Art, nonsense: the fact that Iraq sent missles more than 93 miles from their launch sites to Kuwait City proves that they are banned missles. 'Nuff said. But I wouldn't want any facts to interfere with your Bush bashing. Art, your alleged "demographic profiling" is full of beans. You hitting the hard stuff a little early today? I am 41, very educated, etc. I do not support ANY war for the sake of war. And I would have CLEARLY preferred not to have to spend American lives & treasure to solve this Iraq problem. I believe most Americans feel this way. But that was not possible. Sometimes you need to do ugly things to prevent even uglier things from happening. And sometimes, one of those ugly things nation-states have to do is go to war to protect its citizens. I think, when this is all over, you will see just how horrible, and how much of a threat, Iraq was. I just hope you both have the intestinal fortitude/guts to admit it. Jonas, your ugly hatred for our president has you imagining that you can discern his character from the way you think his eyes look as he walks across a lawn. I would like to know what drugs you are on, friend. Or is it too much Gammeldansk? That is one of the silliest things I have read. Heck, what do you think of the following? I think Chirac & Schroeder look guilty as hell--as if Hussein has threatened that he would send documents with their signatures on them, selling chemical weapons to him, to the NY Times unless they vetoed everything in sight at the UN. Sounds ridiculous, eh? (well, actually, I think there is truth there, but...) Well, re-read your hate-filled nonsense, and you will see just how ridiculous it reads, too. And lay off the Gammeldansk so early in the day!! And Jonas, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking your honorable Staatsminister Rasmussen deserved to be attacked!!! Shame on you. | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2002 |
Here is your proof of chemical weapons... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81935,00.html http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1084802,00.html Selected excerpts for your reading pleasure: --"Senior pentagon official has confirmed to Fox News on Sunday that coalition forces have discovered a "huge" chemical weapons factory near the Iraqi city of An Najaf" --"The chemical plant is described as a "100-acre complex," surrounded by an electrical fence. The plant was also apparently camouflaged to avoid aerial photos being taken." Patrick | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 3268 Registered: 8-2002 |
http://www.drudgereport.com/ | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2002 |
BTW, it has just been reported that we have found/taken control of a large chemical weapons factory in Iraq near Najaf (90 miles south of Baghdad) there is a story on it on drudge, I can't access the website though... fox is reporting it now here is the address http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622 | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2003 |
Art, I understand your reference to the behavior of the Danes during WWII. I worked with a Swede that was there and the betrayal the Nazi's played against his country. He told me stories about Nazi's that sound very much like our present day Saddam. For me it is hard to distinguish between the two. Even after all of these years he had a hate for the Nazi's beyond compare. Saddam (in his own words) has professed the desire to control the Middle east. That would bother the hell out of me if I lived on the same continent as he. I did not intend to belittle the Danes but I do condemn inaction in the face of imminent danger by anybody, including my own country. DJ | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 470 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, Everyone tends to look at the world through lenses colored by personal experience. Two years ago, we would not be taking this action, but we have been stung by terrorism and the stark realization that WE are targets has really sunk in. We know that our borders are very porous and we cannot keep terrorists out (with or without bio weapons) so we must go after them where they live. You may think this is Bush's war, it is not. He could not do a thing without our support which runs about 2/3 in our country. I have asked myself how much the lingering anger I feel from having watched 3000 of my brothers and sisters die brutally colors my views, but to tell the truth, lately I have felt more anger for the French and their appeaser followers than I do for Hussein. At least he never pretended to be our friend. My support for this war is based on a calculated desire to do whatever we can to squash terrorism. Everyone, Jonas does not deserve to be called names for expressing his views (even if he did start it) Let's be civil. Dave Dave | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 468 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, I'm still waiting for Milosevic vs Hussein explanation. Even if Hussein has no weapons, the following 3 reasons are enough to take him out. 1. Openly supports terrorist groups. 2. Tried to kill 2 US presidents 3. Has fired on US and British pilots patroling the UN mandated no fly zones since 1998. For the moralistic crowd, there is always the idea of saving untold numbers of Iraqis from a brutal regime. Apparently Europe thinks only white Europeans are worth saving. Dave | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 296 Registered: 11-2002 |
What exotics? - I don't own any exotics. And next time, write in a form that we can read. And that's your opionion. I'm not agreeing with you, and that's my right. So stop saying how I should feel about this war. That you think Bush is a great, great man is your buisness. I think he's completely off. And that's my opionion. Like it or not. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2001 |
p.s. no error on the CAPS LOCK when you speak softly to children....they listen better...... | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey Jon-ass Let me tell you from personal experiance some time ago I thought I was razor sharp let my guard down for just 1 second,then Guns to my head,beaten n interogated,when your bound n living LIFE SECOND BY SECOND.....LIKE THE IRAQS HAVE BEEN, YOU BECOME A PRISONER OF YOUR OWN MIND.IT NEVER LETS YOU GO,......THE REAL WAR STARTS WENDSDAY.WE WILL KILL HIM...WE WILL KILL HIS REGIME>>WE WILL LIBERATE THE POOR N WEATHERED IRAQ PEOPLE...THERE ARE 192 COUNTRYS IN THE WORLD AND OUR MILITARY BUDGET IS WAY MORE THAN ALL 191 PUT TOGETHER THERES NOTHING YOU AND ALL THE WIMP PROTESTERS CAN DO AT ALL YOUR STATEMENT ON my president was arrogant on your part >he is a great, great, man N ALL OUR MEN IN THE FORCE,THE BEST WEAPONS IN THE WORLD,YEAH WHAT A GREAT FEELING....GOD BLESS THE BRITS,AUSSIES,OUR MEN,N ESPECIALLY THE IRAQ CITIZENS AND AS FOR JOCK, SADDAM IS THROWING HIM MILLIONS UNDER THE TABLE THROUGH TOTAL-FINA WE DONT GIVE A S-IT ABOUT THE OIL YOU WILL SEE.........FINAL SCORE US MILLIONS OF HAPPY IQAQS SERVED N SADAAM IN HELL WHERE HE CAME FROM P.S HOW DOES A MCDONALDS MANAGER OWN 2 EXOTICS ON SUCH LOW PAY I KNOW A GUY THAT OWNS 16 MCDONALDS RESTAUARNTS OVER HERE N HE LIVES COMFORTABLY ENOUGH TO HAVE THOSE.... | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 270 Registered: 3-2001 |
Frank, "Jason, so if what you say about Churchills plans is true, how is he any better than Saddam ?" Precisely my point Frank....I happen to agree with your views in this thread, except for the fact that if it weren't for the US, Britain would be speaking German now.....Churchill would have contaminated the whole of Britain before he'd have let the Germans have it. FYI, 50+ years on and Anthrax Island (real name, Gruinard) is still uninhabitable Art "The UN resolution 1441 DID NOT authorize force. Read it" ....You are absolutely correct, in fact any reference to force was specifically removed in order to get the resolution passed. "I ask a simple question: If we do not find any Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, will we have the will to send Mr.Bush off to Europe to face trial for crimes against humanity?" .....Alas, that won't happen because Mr Bush decided to unilaterally withdraw from the International Warcrimes Court even though the US had already signed up to it; Apparently it wasn't in the national interest (do you think he maybe knew something back then.....things that make you go hmmm!!!) | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, I'm still waiting to hear from you why removing Milosevic was Ok (without UN approval because Russia was opposed) but removing Hussein is not OK. Milosevic was not, by even the most wild imagination a threat to the US, yet Europe insisted we "do something". Hussein is at least as bad, but because Europe has economic ties with him, they oppose. I admit I am speculating here as to Europe's motives, but I'm still waiting for an explanation. I would also like to hear an alternative about what to do besides "letting Europe handle it". Here is another thought for all on the oil angle. An economically and politically free Iraq would greatly reduce Saudi Arabia's influence on energy supply and therefore political influence as well. The royal family would then be far more likely to be overthrown by an oppressed population and we need not care anymore. By the way, we would love for Europe to be a force for good in the world, but Europe has proven over and over again they have neither the will nor the means to do anything. If you guys could not clean up the mess in Yugolavia without us, what can you do? The UN is a joke. They have yet to confront a single typrant in its history despite numerous instances of genocide. The UN's history is one of total failure at accomplishing anything. And now they have put Libya in charge of the human rights. This is the organization that professes to have moral authority? Dave | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 595 Registered: 11-2001 |
I'm done. It seems that no matter what anyone says, you will not be satisfied. Like wise, no matter what you say the war goes on. Still love you brother, and enjoy the freedom that our troops are fighting for. GOD Bless America | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1096 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: Get your facts straight: The Iraqi dead were revolting, probably because of Saddam's oppressive government. My understanding is that there was about 80k dead from the failed revolt. That was a tragedy. We lost about 1 million people when our south revolted a 150 years ago, and some of the things that the North did to the South weren't so good, either. Remember that about 50k Kurds were killed by our Allies the Turks when their Kurdish folks decided to revolt (this happened in about 1995). Given the war advocats morality, tell me why we shouldn't attack them also? As to the nuclear issue? where are the facts? My understanding is the ElBarti found NO nuclear research, etc. in Iraq. Do you have better sources than him? The UN says that we manufactured evidence on that issue, and apparently it was so bad, that we admitted the evidence was false, but denied creating it ourselves. By the way Iran is indeed developing a nuclear device. Are we going to attack them? At least there, we have an excuse: They killed Americans, and continue to fund terrorists who have attacked Americans. I guess my issue is: with those in favor of the war talking, I have yet to see verifable facts supporting the various claims that Iraq is a danger to the US. If and when those types of facts can be produced, maybe I'll change my position, otherwise this looks to be a manufactured war, apparently for reasons other than what is being said. IMHO Art | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 295 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks Art. Nice that not everyone things this is right. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 594 Registered: 11-2001 |
Absolutely Art! As a Christian I am FREE! As an American I am FREE! The people of Iraq also should have the opportunity to be FREE! Sadam and his followers are nothing but mad men. A power like ours should absolutely be used to help the weak. We have the power because GOD blesses America. We should use that power for good. Would you rather we waite until Sadam attempts a mass genocide of the Curds or Shites??? Oh waite he already has. 100,000's of thousands were murdered. But I guess that wasn't enough for you. Do you need millions first? OH no, waite I bet you wanted us to hold off until they had a nuclear device that was detonated in our country killing millions of Americans first right? Saddly the only thing that Sadam understands is violence. So that he can understand us we have to use violence to get our point across. So as a Christian man living in a free country blessed by GOD, I say praise GOD and pass the ammo!!!! Iraq your freedom is coming. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1095 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ricky: The article in the Chronicle that I mentioned was based upon solid polling numbers. I see you are a high school student, and its good that you would make your opinions known, but what the article pointed out is that those who have experienced war are just a little more cautious about it than those with no such experience. I've served my country, and certainly love and respect it. I have strong doubts about the current administration. Don't confuse country with leadership. Art | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2002 |
That is a cheap shot on Ernie... Just because the Pope is anti-war does not mean that all Catholics/Christians/whomever must be as well. Christianity != pacifism. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wow, what disdain for the United States Art. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but I believe that you are terribly wrong. Only time will tell. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1093 Registered: 6-2001 |
DjParks: Are you aware that the only country in Europe to refuse to co-operate with the Nazis and turn over the Jews were the Danes? When Hitler required Jews to wear a star of David on their arms, all Danes did so. Their behavior during WWII was the best of all the Europeans. Ernie: Are you really serious about your comments? I have always respected you as being a serious Christian (even though I disagreed with your beliefs), and I would have thought that your religion would have lead you to the opposite of your current opinion, given your faith. Art | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 262 Registered: 2-2003 |
As I said, I'm not a Bush fan, but crimes against humanity?? Really? First, Mr. Chambers, I'm neither 65+ nor <30 and uneducated. Second, are you certain we need U.N. authority to pursue a righteous agenda? Can you really posit arguments in favor of the Husseins? Wanna try some in favor of Idi Amin or Pol Pot? Gee, a democratic society in Iraq that follows U.S. and U.K. agendas, how horrible! | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 593 Registered: 11-2001 |
Just accept it. We are already over there KICKING ASS!!!! Like we should have done long ago. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1092 Registered: 6-2001 |
I'm reading all this commentary from those who support the war, but there seems to be either misinformation or deliberate distortion: 1. The UN resolution 1441 DID NOT authorize force. Read it. 2. The Iraqis used the scuds which they claimed they didn't have. Untrue. NO WEAPONS, none, that were banned have been discovered. 3. That somehow Iraq is responsible for terrorist attacks on the US. Where is the proof of that? There isn't any. There is an interesting article in the SF Chronicle today. It appears that there is an age gap in the support for the US war: The young, those under 30 are very, very supportive. The old, i.e., those over 65 aren't, and interestingly enough, there is very little support for this war by those with a college education. That leads me to believe that the support for this war in the US is by the young uneducated portion of our society (nothing is 100% but the trend is evident). The whole issue about this war is simple: First it was to disarm Saddam, then when even when we provided the "proof" of weapons of Mass destruction, and no such thing was discovered, and we were caught frabricting evidence, then the goal became regime change. I suggest this is the first step in an American Empire plan by those in Washington, and guess what, everyone around the world gets it, and they are complaining. I ask a simple question: If we do not find any Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, will we have the will to send Mr.Bush off to Europe to face trial for crimes against humanity? Art | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 261 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jonas, one more attempt to make you understand. You are CERTAINLY entitled to your opinion, in a free society such as the United States EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion. I'm no fan of Bush, but "Arrogance" shining from his eyes??? Have you ever listened to Hussein's speeches??? Have you noticed that his sons have palaces and 1,200 car collections, while "his" people starve and die for lack of medical attention?? My point to you is simple. Not everything can be resolved by abdicating an unpleasant job, as the French have historically done. Most citizens of the United States don't welcome war, but we must recognize a necessary agenda and once it has begun, thank those who give us manifest support (the U.K.) and reject those who would wait and fiddle while Rome burns. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 294 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Hmm... so would it have been an honorable act for Britain to not go to war with Germany during WW2? Are you crazy?" That does not make any sense. "not true- where are you getting this?" CNN, try and watch it. The biggets protests ever seen is all over the world in any major city. "and I can't follow yours" I haven't told you too understand it. We have different opionions. "I don't see your argument - If a problem is in Europe/Asia/Africa only European countries are allowed to intervene? The UN didn't pass the second resolution (which it did not even need) because of France/Germany/Russia, who have strong economic ties to Iraq. It sounds to me like you have a bit of a problem with the fact that the United States is the predominant world power, and Europe/your country is not." Funny how you, left out, the US part. US can fight here in Europe, I think it's okay. BUT ONLY with approval from the UN or in corporation with NATO. It's not good that Bush "suddenly" brakes out, and goes behind the back of the UN. There's gonna be alot of debate after this war Want my county to be a superpower ? Get real. Denmark is one of the smallest countries in the world. You proberbly don't even know where it is. A superpower. haha | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2002 |
I don't even know why we are arguing with this guy, he has no clue what he is talking about, but here we go... "Why should they resign for NOT going to war? - That an honoroble act no matter what. " Hmm... so would it have been an honorable act for Britain to not go to war with Germany during WW2? Are you crazy? "There's never been so much doubt around the world about a war before" not true- where are you getting this? ", as there are about this one. And still you are sitting there talking like this is the most "right" war ever. I really can't follow your way of thinking. " and I can't follow yours "If there should be a war. Let England, Germany and France fight it, with the approval of the UN." I don't see your argument - If a problem is in Europe/Asia/Africa only European countries are allowed to intervene? The UN didn't pass the second resolution (which it did not even need) because of France/Germany/Russia, who have strong economic ties to Iraq. It sounds to me like you have a bit of a problem with the fact that the United States is the predominant world power, and Europe/your country is not. " Bush made his statement "We cannot wait anymore".. bla bla bla.. He has not done anything the last 12 years, what makes Bush think that he'll do anything now ? " what does this even mean? Bush has only been in office for 3 years? We haven't taken serious military measures against Iraq since the first gulf war - if you aren't trying to take someone out it really doesn't work! You are not making a lot of sense here... | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 293 Registered: 11-2002 |
What are you talking about? Poking fun of mis-spellings? - I have never done that. My opinion is my right, and you can't take that away from me. I have right to say, that your president is a "war-horny" president. Because he is. My dad and I was watching the news at CNN, and they where showing a program with Bush after the war was announced. There was a clip of him walking over a lawn alone, and you could see the glory glowing out of his eyes. Arrogancy and selfrightouesness. I really felt bad inside seeing that. Just looking in his eyes. "Or am I mistaken, and Denmark took a stand against Hitler's early encroachments??" I don't know what encroachments mean, but DK has never supported anything from Hitler, so the answer is yes, you are mistaken. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 329 Registered: 2-2001 |
Should the UN feel the urge to be proactive on the conflict-avoidance front, a resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian situation might be first order of business. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2003 |
>"But we don't like it when you start making action over here without asking the people (us) that actually live here."< JONAS, There was a resolution passed UNANIMOUSLY by the UN to disarm Saddam BY FORCE if he did not disarm willingly. HE DID NOT. The UN includes most of the governments of Europe. So the asking was done and approved and it was approved by YOUR governments. By your comments I assume that is not enough. Did you want somebody to come to your door to ask permmission? Still looking for proof? The French waited until the Nazi's where marching through Paris before they finally figured out their ass was grass. Even then the Nazi's made it to the English channel before anybody could do anything about it! Saddam wants control of the entire Mid-east, he has said so. Is this the proof you are looking for? Wait until he nukes Iran and Saudi Arabia? That would be real proof wouldn't it. I wonder how many MORE millions would die if Saddam had his way? ............But I guess we need more proof and God forbid we go in and cut this poisonous growth before it spreads any further. If that is the way you really feel I will be happy to dig the hole in the sand for you to hide your head in and paint the target on your upraised ass. DJ | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 259 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jonas, you jackass. First, you poked fun at Dave for his mis-spellings. Now, you're telling me that my opinions "dictate" to you. Bullshit. We are both entitled to our "opinions." Mine is simply that you're wrong, and your agenda is flawed. Or am I mistaken, and Denmark took a stand against Hitler's early encroachments?? I don't think so. Hence, I'm calling your political philosphy "bleeding heart idiocy." | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 258 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank, why do you need to "protest?" Are the U.S. and the U.K. not the most humanitarian peoples in "this universe?" Is it really objectionable to remove Hussein and sons, and replace them with puppets who will (hopefully) provide modern medicine and food for an oppressed population? Can you really claim that an agenda focusing on removing a totalitarian monster is wrong? Eschew political correctness, Frank, your argument is bankrupt. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Your bleeding heart idiocy is the same pathetic philosophy that conjectured, (at great cost in lives) that Hitler only wanted a little extra "leibens raumme" Thank you for not tolerating others opionion to express our meening. It's nice to be dictated. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 257 Registered: 2-2003 |
Again, how is a war to disable a totalitarian regime that starves its own people while building massive, egotistical presidential palaces everywhere WRONG? Why shouldn't the U.S. and the U.K. take affirmative steps to rebuild this part of the world in their own image?? Why should we accord "laissez-faire" to people who would see us dead if they developed the capability? Your bleeding heart idiocy is the same pathetic philosophy that conjectured, (at great cost in lives) that Hitler only wanted a little extra "leibens raumme." Whether we're in violation of U.N. mandates or not, the U.S. and the U.K. are performing a necessary, righteous act. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, Our Stupid "Statsminister" got paint all over him. And thank god the idiot deserved it. Anders Fogh Rasmussen is a very unpopular man in Denmark at these times. Our prior Statsminister, Poul Nyrup would never had sent troops to Iraq as Anders Fogh has done now. I'm not proud of having forces with our name, in Iraq. This war is a disgrace. Look at all the things going wrong down there right now. I've watch CNN the last 36 hours, and damn I'm tired. They have soon reached bagdad, and have not yet found any weapons of mass destruction. They better soon, cuz' there's not much land left to cature. Why should they resign for NOT going to war? - That an honoroble act no matter what. There's never been so much doubt around the world about a war before, as there are about this one. And still you are sitting there talking like this is the most "right" war ever. I really can't follow your way of thinking. If there should be a war. Let England, Germany and France fight it, with the approval of the UN. Bush made his statement "We cannot wait anymore".. bla bla bla.. He has not done anything the last 12 years, what makes Bush think that he'll do anything now ? For god sake, you are shooting you own allies down. And your own soldiers are throwing grenades in to fellow soldiers tents. This war is everything but right. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 910 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, how about Mr. Chirac & Mr. Schroeder resign when Mr. Bush is proven right? Also, I noticed several things missing from your post: (1) despite your continued insults of Mr. Bush, you have not offered one suggestion of what you would do that would be better; (2) you have not responded to your hypocrisy of claiming that the quiche-eating appeasment countries of Europe will handle any war, despite 200+ years of the exact opposite being true; (3) you claim "But we don't like when you start making action over here, without asking the people (us) that actually live here, first"; we have not done anything in or to Europe, except bail your asses out numerous times due to European wimpy inaction & appeasement, most recently in Yugoslavia; as far as I can tell, Iraq is not in Europe; (4) where is your response to Europe's 100% total failure to, once again, stop genocide in its own back yard, this time in Yugoslavia? and where was your outrage to US bombing of that country? The other Dave is right: disagree with US policy--fine; personally attack and insult our president, whom you do not know & clearly know little about beyond what you read in the Marxist Times--I'll kick your butt. Finally, I was appalled to recently see that an attacker had somehow poured red paint all over your prime minister, an honorable man. That could just as easily have been acid/anthrax/etc. You guys need much better security for your elected leaders. There is no excuse for anyone getting that close to your leader. I am sorry for the obvious humiliation he faced. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2026 Registered: 9-2001 |
Sometimes I wonder what universe some of you are from. It was terrorist from Saudie Arabia that bombed the World Trade Center, both in 1993 and 2001, not people from Iraq. If you must bomb some country it should be Saudie Arabia. It was a Saudie prince's wife that gave money to the 9/11 terrorist, not Hussiens. If you want to get on the UN bandwagon, if you will do your research you will find that the USA is in violation of more UN resolutions than Iraq. I love America and would not want to live anywhere else. But, I am obligated as a citizen to protest when America is wrong. Jason, so if what you say about Churchills plans is true, how is he any better than Saddam ? | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2002 |
I will, say "sorry" if im proven wrong. But I doubt I am. I pretty sure that they will not find any weapons of mass destruction. And if George Bush doesn't resing from office after this war, if proven wrong. It just prove my(and soon the rest of the world) point about this man. And off cause the US has saved us a lot of times. You are the only "Superpower" in the world. That has cool, and we like it. But we don't like when you start making action over here, without asking the people (us) that actually live here, first. If the US where to go to war with whole of Europe, we won't even stand a chance. So I really can't use those "Who saved your but back in.. bla bla lba) When you are the only country with the power to do it. But we'll see when it ends. | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2002 |
This thread should be moved to Off Topic. I find what Jonas says offensive and all he has been able to do is snipe at Americans from Europe. Jonas has his opinion, I strongly feel he will be proved wrong when this all plays out. Patrick | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 269 Registered: 3-2001 |
Frank, I never thought I'd agree with anything that you wrote, especially since I'm one of those pesky Dino 360 owners (and I know exactly what you think about the car).....However, whilst I am in general agreement with the views you present in this thread, I'd like to comment on the following "Jonas, while I agree with you about Iraq, you are wrong about the British liberating europe in WWII. If not for the USA, the British and French would both be speaking German . You too !" ....I can categorically assure you that the British NEVER would have spoken German, as Winston Churchill had a plan just in case the war went to S**t and we were going to lose.....He sent a bunch of scientists off to a little Scottish island to conjure up a nasty cocktail for the arrival of any unwanted Germans....And the name of the island/chemical....ANTHRAX (as in the stuff Mr Hussein may or may not have) | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2003 |
OOPS! Forgot about the oil equation. Some people think it's all about the oil. Just like everything else political it's all about power and oil is a form of that power. He who has the most wins and every country in the world needs it and has to pay a price to get it. Some countries are down right slutty about it (making deals with loose cannons like Saddam) while others see it more beneficial to deal with a stable and possibly more democratic government that can be manipulated by more traditional forms such as wide spread profit (Yeah, it's about the money too) and the freedom of a capitalistic society (read as the harder/smarter you work the more you get). There isn't a country on this planet that wouldn't love to have complete control of the Iraqi reserves which happen to be the largest at this time so as far as the USA doing this STRICTLY for the oil? It's an entertaining thought but I seriously doubt that the world community would allow the US to take over the Iraq and install our own government any more than they would allow Russia, France or China for that matter. Terrorism? With hope Iraq will be one less place for them to take refuge. No more soap tonight, DJ | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2003 |
Saddam has launched Scud's at Kuwait he said he never had. Escapees from his country have told of people being fed into plastic shredders. His son has a fetish for public decapitations AND a private torture chamber. He has Al Samud missles he said he never had. 60% of his people live in poverty while he has a 7 BILLION dollar bank account. An engineer that escaped from Iraq recieved a gift video from Iraqi secret police showing a relative beaten and raped. HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE (the Kurds). He has been working on developing nuclear capibilities since his rise to power (his self admitted dream). IF WE JUST CLOSE OUR EYES AND GO LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA HE'LL GO AWAY. Get a grip! He's not doing it in my back yard so I'm going to stay out of his business? As a member of the world community we shouldn't be concerned for the well being of his neighbors and our allies? Let the inspectors tour the country looking for WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION when in fact they are right under their noses under the palaces THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INSPECT!????? Maybe I am being simplistic about this but he sounds like a Megalomaniac and I wouldn't want him as a neighbor anymore I would want Milosivic or North Korea (Hello! They DO have nuclear capabilities) . In this country everybody has the right to make the choice pro or con. If a terrorist shows up at my front door he won't see my ass in the air while hiding my head in the sand, he'll see the wrong end of my 'Home Defence Apparatus'(legal of course). THAT's my choice! If I could go I would but I can't so I'll get off the box. I have the greatest respect for those that believe in a cause against a regime like Saddams, Milosivec's or North Korea (I would REALLY worry about that one). DJ | ||
| Dan (Bfs426)
New member Username: Bfs426 Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2003 |
Oh my! I leave for a couple hours and look what I missed. There is so much to comment on I don't even know where to start. Let us first squash this notion that this is a "pre-empted" strike. I recall, not so long ago, that the World Trade Center was destroyed. Along with thousands of lives from all around the globe. Not to mention the billions of dollars lost to clean up, compensate, rebuild, and the destruction of the economy. I remember that the whole middle east rejoiced and worshiped the terrorists who attacked the "infidels." Every day we get a little closer to catching Osama bin Laden, and his remaining cohorts. It is logical that Saddom, a huge supplier to terrorists, should be next. Bush said we were going to get all of the terrorists. This is still the War on terror. Any one who has studied the middle east could tell you that they have been fighting over there since the beginning of time. They will continue fighting because this is a religious thing. Jews hate Muslims. Muslims hate Jews. Palestine hates Israel. Israel hates Palestine. Can you see the pattern? Religion is and always will be the number one cause of death in the world. The analogy keeps getting better as it is revised. I think it works better like this: -your neighbor has started buying guns and now owns 100. (WOMDs like Iraq has) -He is different from you and often beats his wife. (this shows that he is violent and unstable, just like Iraq) -He hates you and wishes you were dead. He actually has given some of his guns to other people, who also hate you. (Osama and other assorted terrorist) -Those other people kill 4 of your friends, on your own property, and destroy your garage. (World Trade Center anyone?) -You call the police and report what happened.(UN) -The police get right on it, but are having trouble finding evidence. Plus your neighbors lover, with political power, is slowing the investigation down and rallying the surrounding neighbors against you. (Weapons inspectors? France in the UN) Now what do you do. 1.You can be murdered by your neighbor 2.You can wait for the cops to do something 3.You can take action on your own What will the next revision look like? I can hardly wait. "But, as a Christian from what I understand of the New Testament we are to love our enemies, not bomb them!" -Frank The Koran doesn't mention strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up your neighbors either. It also doesn't instruct people to destroy buildings with jets. The people over there hate westerners. They hate each other. They have been brain washed beyond any educated persons understanding. They are jealous of our way of life and will support our downfall in any way possible. Our ancestors sacrificed and fought for the freedoms that many people take for granted today. I for one do not want to see the last 200 years thrown away because the small minority doesn't want to sacrifice for the future. Conspiracy theories and supposed alternate agendas aside, the terrorists are going down. whether the protestors like it or no | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 464 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, Perhaps you have noticed in this thread that there is a lot of anger amongst us Americans. In this thread, you have become the focal point. Sorry, it's not personal. One of the things that makes me and many Americans angry is the hypocrsy we see in Europeans. For instance, I cannot understand why it was OK for us to go to Bosnia and Croatia to destroy Milosevic (who was actualy elected) but somehow destroying Hussein is not OK. I would sincerely like to hear your opinion on this. As for Europe taking care of things, I have to agree with the other Dave on this one. Europe has not dealt with tyrants without US help since Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo nearly 200 years ago. (Which country did that?) And Europeans wonder why we have no respect for them (except the British of course). If the European union wants to be a force in the world, we would welcome that. You can start by paying for your fair share of NATO defense, UN support. And, while you are at it, you might want to give some foreign aid to the countries you are so sympathetic with. We give more aid to the palestinians than all the Arab countries combined. How about taking on some of that burden? It seems to me that Eurpope likes to complain a lot about us while enjoying our protection and doing nothing to address problem areas in the world. If oil was our motivatoion, we would have let Hussein keep Kuwait and take Saudi Arabia too. Then we would have cut deals with him (and cut the French out). Would have saved alot of money and lives on out part. No doubt Europe would not like that either. Would Europe have liberated Kuwait without us? Right. We feel like we are pretty much dammed if we do and dammed if we don't, so step aside, we are going to do what WE think is best. Jonas, Last, but not least, Bush enjoys the support of 2/3 of us in this war. By American standards, this is overwhelming. We squabble amongst ourselves a great deal, much like one big family. But, much like one big family, we do not like critics from outside. When you call Bush names, we take personal offense. Disagree if you want, we can respect that, but name calling is in poor taste and unbecoming in your part. Dave | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2149 Registered: 2-2001 |
I hate war but Saddam is crazy & he clearly is a threat & must be removed. I pray that this war is short & merciful for innocents on all sides | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2001 |
Did the thoughful gents who piled jets into our buildings do so because they thought we were after their nation's oil? Maybe they were simply so irritated by the freedoms enjoyed by the infidels, that such drastic and desperate measures had to be taken. Or perhaps there's another cause that motivates the middle-eastern terrorist that slips my mind and that of others of late. The mind boggles. What we can be certain of, though, is that, post 9/11, our President declared war on terrorists and the nations that support them. Saddam, when active (alive?), openly subsidized terrorists (occasionally those of the suicide variety) whose primary cause just may have been similar to that of those who showed up in NYC that day in September. Agree w/those who think the Brits are cool. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 908 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jselevan, LOL!!!! Jonas, of course you have the right to your opinion, as do I. Too bad the citizens of Iraq don't....yet. As for your extrapolation of the number of protesters worldwide: give me 5 or 10 minutes to stop laughing. And as for this assertion by you: "I don't think the US has the right to "but in" like it have done now. If there should be a war, then let countrie's in Europe do it. (With the help of the US, if necessary)" This is one of the funniest things I have ever read here. Jonas, please tell me just how well the countries of Europe did in stopping the genocide in Yugoslavia a few years ago? You fools completely wimped out. You did NOTHING. Noy a goddamned THING. You sat on your hands and looked the other way. All you "countries of Europe" did was blab on & on, and wring your hands, saying "Oh, what to do? What to do?" And this was happening RIGHT IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD!!! So you sat on your thumbs and, AS ALWAYS, waited for the US to bail your sorry asses out of the fire. And guess what? Like always, we did! Had we not used our military, Jonas, it is likely that Milosevic would still be murdering & raping his way to an ethnically cleansed country. "If there should be a war, then let countrie's in Europe do it."?? DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1091 Registered: 6-2001 |
Lucas, master of darkness? Art | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 898 Registered: 11-2001 |
and a heartfelt thanks to the brits from doodyland as well!!! but the thread still belongs in off-topic ;-) doody. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2002 |
God Bless the British?? Didn't they give us "power by Lucas"? | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 457 Registered: 6-2002 |
Donald Griesdale - thought you might appreciate this bit of humor: The Canadian Government has decided to assist the U.S.A. in the war against terrorism. They have agreed to send: 2 of their largest battleships 6000 ground troops 6 fighter jets AFTER THE EXCHANGE RATE, the U.S.A. will receive: 1 canoe 2 Mounties 12 flying squirrels | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2003 |
Art Suggest you re-read explanation of appropriate interpretation of analogies - you missed the point here. best rt | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1090 Registered: 6-2001 |
Russ: Since when do you behave the same towards living, breathing human beings as you do snakes? I always thought people were a bit special. While I differ in a good many ways from Frank, in this instance we have identical points of view. The other point is that Bush,et al will be out of office if they are wrong? Where I come from, if you kill people you get punished, not fired. If he and his coherts are wrong, they should be taken to the world court and tried. Period. As to the issue that Saddam is bad, there is no connection to 9/11 that I have heard. Obviously that would change if a connection could be proved. On the other hand, Bin Laden's sister, who probably had a good idea of where he was, was allowed to leave the US. Seems that one of Bin Laden's brothers happens to be a partner with someone in the Bush family in an oil deal. In my humble opinion, this war is about something entirely different than weapons of mass destruction, but for the life of me, if it isn't oil, I haven't a clue. Dave: UN, not union. That's what I get from voice recognition software. Art | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1802 Registered: 4-2002 |
DOODY I STARTED THE THREAD, BUT JUST A JESTURE FOR THANKS FOR OUR CLOSEST ALLIED.... DIDNT THINK I WOULD FIND HISTORIANS, EX- 5 STAR GENERALS, EX PRESIDENTS OF THE US HERE...BUT YOU KNOW F-CHAT REGARDS, BRUCE | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2001 |
rob - can't stuff like this just get moved wholesale into off topic? doody. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 463 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, History will judge Bush and Blair, but even those who oppose this war have to admit that Bush and Blair have laid it all on the line. If their assertions about "weapons of mass destruction" comes up empty, both will be gone from office at the next opportunity. I'm betting they will be vindicated. If they are not, I'll admit I'm wrong along with them. Will you admit to being wrong if they are proven right? This is not a new war. Saddam has repeatedly violated the terms of his cease fire in 1991. US and British pilots have been fired on constantly since patroling the no fly zone began in 1998 (another UN resolution). When we complained the UN shrugs it's shoulders. The only reason Hussein allowed inspections at all was because we had 200K troops massing on his border. Are we supposed to keep them there forever? I have a recurring image of an Al Queda tape found in Afghanistan showing a test of some type of nerve agent on a dog. It was sickening. Where do you suppose they got this gas? Where do you suppose they expect to get more? Hussein openly supports terrorists attacking the Israelis. He is too smart to openly support Al Queda but I don't doubt for a minute he would if he hasn't already, if he thought he could get away with it. This is the man who tried to kill 2 of our presidents! How much of this BS are we supposed to take? We tried turning the other cheek and the past and for our efforts we got to watch 3000 of our brothers and sisters brutally murdered on TV. Speaking as an American, I am tired of being the punching bag and not being able to react. Frankly, I don't care what other countries think. It's time other countries worry about what we think of them! Dave | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank Thanks for the reply. Not my analogy as I attributed, but serves the basic purpose. As you well imply ALL analogies break down when pressed. Just as yours breaks down as he would be carted off to the pokey for beating his wife and breaking 'the law' by a 'policeman'... That's the well known danger of analogies - should not read them too deeply but use them to superficially show a concept. Anyway, I think both analogies, each with their certainly different spin, are illustrative of the conflicted concept and ethical problem. To me, the most interesting part of this thread is how utterly limbic it has become to where some folk's good points are clearly lost due to being skewed by hate and anger management challenges. thanks again best to all, rt | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmm okay. Maybe correct. Can't quite remember. But danish was actually culturating, or what it's called.. hmm, danish is a modified German. So it wouldn't matter that much | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2025 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jonas, while I agree with you about Iraq, you are wrong about the British liberating europe in WWII. If not for the USA, the British and French would both be speaking German . You too ! | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, I have the right to state my opionion. And my opinion is, that this war is BS. To answer you response, about the 1 percent against the war. That's a VERY big number. And just because there where only 1 percent out protesting, doesn't mean that there are only those. I wasn't out, but I'm against, and there are proberbly a billion people more like me. I don't think the US has the right to "but in" like it have done now. If there should be a war, then let countrie's in Europe do it. (With the help of the US, if necessary) To the guy that said who liberated us from the Germans back in 43' .. Back in 43', we did not have NATO nor the UN. We have now. And the liberation was made MAINLY by the british with some help from the US. I'm agains't this war, and it's just as emptyhead'ed of you, to say that this is not a war for "oil and revenge" as it is for me to say it. Cuz' you don't know. Israel has weapons of mass destruction. So does Korea, China, Germany, Italy, Spain, Iran, India, England and many other countries (Some with more dangerous people than Saddam) This war is about something else, and one day we'll find out what. ------------- "Dan, to be against a war has nothing to do with whether or not "you support the troups" . Some do not believe in a "pre-emptive" war such as the one lodged against Iraq. Our country has become the shining light of the world over the years because we do require a bad act before we strike. I would hate a precedent to develope which allows a country to attack another because it fears that the other may act first. How would you like the police to arrest you because they suspect you may commit a crime in the future ? Since you have a Ferrari you should get a ticket now because we all know you will speed in it at some point. Is that what you really want ?" -------- So no, I won't pray and support the troops down there. I feel sad that they might have to die for a stupid cause, ordered by a foolish man (Yes, your president. If you watch CNN now, you can see the rising hate around the world against your president) Very well said. That's my point too. The US can't play "World Police" Don't take it personally. This is my point of view. And I think more and more people around the world are starting to feel the same way I do. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2023 Registered: 9-2001 |
Russ, the snake analogy is a little off target. The better one would be that your neighbor has started buying guns and now owns 100. He is different from you and often beats his wife, So,you tell him that if he doesn't get rid of the guns that you will blow up his house and kill him to be sure he never has a chance to harm you. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2022 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rikky, if you will recall the 9/11 terrorist were from Saudie Arabia, not Iraq. In fact, most terrorism over the last few decades can be traced to Saudie Arabia. And, if you read the history on the subject rather than just watch the tube you will discover that it was our CIA that helped Saddam to power by assisting him in the assasination of the former president of Iraq. He was our friend then because he was the enemy of our enemy, Iran. Further, just who appointed the USA as the police department of the world? It is the USA that has the largest stockpile of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. And, the USA is the only country in history to ever use nuclear weapons against our fellow man. Remember Japan ? Al-Quadi got its start in Saudie Arabia as a result of the first Gulf war. bin laden and others didn't like their holy land in Saudie Arabia being taunted by western troups. If you think this attack on Iraq is going to make the world safer, you're dreaming. It will only allow give a new generation of western hating terrorist a new battle cry. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2003 |
Pre-emptive strike ethic. Interesting off topic discussion. Some say FDR in 1941 well knew Hawai'i was going to be attacked, but felt strongly that even with a loss of 2 - 3 thousand lives, the moral high ground was imperative. Different world now. Technology moves ahead. I believe President Bush and PM Blair had a very urgent and difficult decision to confront, one way or the other. This is not 1941; Is the moral high ground worth the definite documented possibility of the loss of 2 - 3 million lives from an attack? Is mitigating that risk worth possibly several hundred coalition lives, billions of dollars and the political consequences? Difficult where to draw line? I believe the Senator from Tennessee shared the best analogy, right or wrong, how many work-a-day Americans feel about this pre-emptive strike. He likened it to when he found a coven of poisonous copperhead snakes under his front porch. Now, they were not really hurting anyone being there at the time, but could easily kill one of his dogs or even Grandchildren on a whim. He did not ask his neighbors, or even his wife, if he should kill them, he just did took action because he assessed the possible threat as too great to those he loved. Certainly simplistic, but elucidative. God protect them all - civilians and troops - and may this end quickly with minimal loss of life to both the coalition and the Iraqi people. best to all rt | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2002 |
Only problem is, this is not a "pre-emptive" war. Saddam Hussein and his regime have had 12 years to disarm, and for 12 years have continually ignored UN mandates. In fact, it is quite the opposite. What I want to know is where were you all when Clinton bombed Milosivec? There was no UN resolution permitting force there, why weren't you all complaining then? Or when Clinton himself bombed Iraq in the late 90's? Why was it ok then, but now, in this post-9/11 world it is not? September 11, 2001 was the culmination of many years of hate against the United States. Every changed because of that day. We now have to do whatever we can in order to protect ourselves from another event of this magnitude. Saddam Hussein completely ignored the UN Resolution 1441, which was unanimously passed, which was supposed to be his final chance to disarm. He did not account for the chemical and biological weapons that we knew he had in 1998. Why, if he no longer has these weapons, would he not account for their destruction? He still has these weapons. Saddam Hussein is an evil person, who has extreme hate for the United States. If you do not believe these, try watching one of the History Channel specials on his life. The way he got to the position he is currently in was through murder- he was the only one who was not afraid to kill in his party, and it took him to the top. He was eventually thrown in prison, and read books on Lenin and Hitler. He would have no problems providing terrorists with weapons that could potentially kill millions of people. Not only does he support the Palestinian Suicide bombers, but he also houses an Al-Qaida training facility in his country. All that it would take is for him to provide terrorists with 1 barrel of his deadly toxins- if used, an event ten times worse than 9/11 could occur. This, quite frankly, scares me. I feel that if George W. Bush would not have led a strike to disarm Iraq, that he would have been personally endangering my family and me by allowing this dangerous leader to stay in power. Besides this reason, there are many others for which military intervention in Iraq is a good idea. He is an oppressor. No better than Slobodan Milosivec, he uses chemical weapons on his own people and has people that rape the wives of people who do not support his regime. The crimes against humanity that he has committed are sickening, and he needs to be stopped. Additionally, the removal of Saddam Hussein, and a U.S. presence in the area will stabilize the region, allowing for eventual peace between Israelis and Palestinians. This is debatable, but I personally feel that this will eventually lead to an increase of stability in the region. In nature, creatures do whatever they can to defend themselves. The United States is a unified country of which many are jealous, some of whom are not afraid to take arms against, and attack the innocent citizens of the U.S. We must do everything that we can to protect ourselves, so that more innocent people do not die in the future, like on the fateful day of September 11, 2001. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2018 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dan, to be against a war has nothing to do with whether or not "you support the troups" . Some do not believe in a "pre-emptive" war such as the one lodged against Iraq. Our country has become the shining light of the world over the years because we do require a bad act before we strike. I would hate a precedent to develope which allows a country to attack another because it fears that the other may act first. How would you like the police to arrest you because they suspect you may commit a crime in the future ? Since you have a Ferrari you should get a ticket now because we all know you will speed in it at some point. Is that what you really want ? I am ex-Navy and believe our country should give our military all it needs to win whatever conflict it may be in at any given time. However, in our democratic republic, I have not only the right but the obligation to voice my opinion for or against what my government does. That is being a true patriot . One who just acts as a yes man as to whatever his government does is a fool, not a patriot! I understand that Bush has more information on Iraq than we do. But, I do believe he has another agenda than what he claims. There are a lot more dangerous countries in the world than Iraq which commit a lot worse and more human rights violations. Saudie Arabia, China, N.Korea and others come to mind. In fact, America aborts/murders more babies a year than Saddam has killed in 20 years. Most for the mothers lifestyle choice. Iraq is just the easy target. I hope our troups all come home safely. But, i disagree that they should be there in the first place. And, I too hope God continues to bless America. But, as a Christian from what I understand of the New Testiment we are to love our enemies, not bomb them ! By the way, i'm a libertarian, not a liberal. | ||
| Dan (Bfs426)
New member Username: Bfs426 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
I have been lurking here at F-chat for about a year now, and it deeply saddens me that my first post contains zero Ferrari content. Any one who thinks this war is about oil is either very ignorant or just plain stupid. America only imports about 17% of its oil from the Middle-east. Most of that comes from Iran. In fact, America only imported 2% of its total oil from Iraq last year (which is 2% too much if you ask me). Roughly 70% of American oil comes from the western-hemisphere (Canada, Alaska, Texas, Mexico, Gulf of Mexico). Furthermore, it has been estimated that the US has approximately 40 years worth of oil in its emergency reserves. America doesn't need mid-east oil. We have more oil than they do. The only reason people talk about their oil is because that is the only thing they have. Surprisingly, for comparison, some of the largest oil fields in the world are in Russia (Siberia). France, on the other hand, desperately needs Iraqi oil. Japan needs oil too, but it can go to other asian sources if need be. France strongly apposed war because they are in big trouble with out Saddom and Iraq. That is why they are volunteering to help now. I'm not even going to get into why your comments about Bush are even more ridiculous than your comments on oil (right now anyway). Jonas I'll leave you with this last thought: President Bush is briefed hourly, if not up to the minute, about what is really going on. Do you really think you have enough information to decide what course of action we should take. Those �experts� on TV don�t know ••••, and neither do any of us. So how about showing some support to the men and women overseas who really are sacrificing their time and lives so the world will be a better place. oh and Maranelloman, thank you for responding to the attacks of Bush and the war. The only way to defeat a liberal is to use common sense and cold hard facts. I apologize for any spelling and grammatical mistakes, it is hard to type in a box this small. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 461 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, Perhaps if Bush was president in the 1930's, your country would not have needed liberating. Who was it that liberated your country? The answer has escaped me. Dave | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 906 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art, I don't understand your point. What "Union" do you mean? | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 592 Registered: 11-2001 |
I would also like to thank Britain, Spain, Austrailia, and the rest of the 40+ countries that have the gutts to back us up. We are not going to waite anymore for someone to bloody our nose or blacken our eye before we fight. After 9/11 the gloves are off. Leave us alone and you will not get thumped! We are hated anyway just because of who we are and the way we live. We will not give them the opportunity to destroy us first. Look at how the poor people of Iraq live. Is that how you want to live????? Terrorized, poor, starving, helpless. I for one will not, and neither should anyone else in the world. Freedom is for everyone. That is why we are there. So that we will not become brutalized, and so that they no longer can be brutalized. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1089 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dave; You are factually incorrect. Take a look at Jon's responses (he cites the various Union resolutions and their applicable sections, quotes them, etc.) to these issues: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/132929/217166.html?1048160182 Regards, Art | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 216 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bruce, I'm not sure you should be thanking the British people as most of us are against the war. I have kept out of the 'off topic' section of Ferrarichat for the last couple of weeks as this subject seems to be dominating there. My friend is in the army and he is having to order his troops into battle to participate in a war he described to me as 'bullshit'. I get the impression that most Americans are in favour of this invasion, but I think it's the only country where the population support this action. quote: ------------------------------------------------- Sure. We backed Saddam Hussein back then. It was one devil or the other and, at the time, he was the one we thought, long term, we could work with. So we helped him. And, overall, I think we're all better off that we did. ---- George H.W. Bush, CNN interview, 1993 -------------------------------------------------- So, then: quote: -------------------------------------------------- I know not where we shall end. But that is not my concern, after all. You made me. You decided to give me what I now dispose. So I care only a little about the suffering I have wrought, as it is as much your handwork as it is mine. But be sure of this: you shall accede to my wishes. You may be my creator. But I am your master: obey!!! ---- The Creature, speaking to Dr Frankenstein -------------------------------------------------- I won't be returning to this thread as I know it'll just piss me off. I would have preffered it if this thread had been in the 'off topic' section as I wouldn't have seen it then. Here's one more quote before I go: A letter to the London Observer from Terry Jones of Monty Python. Letter to the Observer Sunday January 26, 2003 The Observer "I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one. Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want! And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way. Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror. What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves. Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims? It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up. Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come. It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street." | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 905 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, please allow me to insert responses into a portion of your post. Also, please remember that 16+ UN resolutions command Iraq to document its disarmament or face military action...to which Hussein has given the middle finger. Or do you conveniently forget this fact because it doesn't suit your argument? "Saddam Hussein is not posing a threat for the United States [BS; he has tried to assassinate one former president--Bush--and one sitting president--Clinton, among many other offenses, including a brash willingness to use bio weapons against his own population], he has not ever stated that he wanted to destroy the US [who cares WHAT he has stated? He also claims that Iraq won the 1991 war!! Do you believe him?? The point is that Hussein has wanted to do harm to the US and Israel, a US ally, and has actively aided terrorists by, among other things, paying huge money to the families of the Palestinian terrorist homicide bombers who kill civilians]. Osama Bin Laden has stated that serveral times. But not Saddam Hussein [again, who cares? Actions speak louder than words; only the truly naive are unaware of that fact]. I'm am not trying to protect Saddam Hussein, but I am against the way the US does it [OK, then how would you do it, if you were US president, Jonas? Give us a hint!! Don't just criticize Bush--be constructive!!]. There's no proof that he has anymore chemical and biological weapons [BS, Jonas, there is plenty of proof; and besides, Iraq was required by multiple UN resolutions to document what it did with all these weapons that it admitted to & was proven to have after the last war there, and it REFUSED. Doesn't that tell you something????? Come on, man, USE YOUR HEAD here!!!]. Still, due to these reports, that everyone can pull of the internet. US feels the urge to go to war. Even without a reason [oh, complete BS, Jonas; the US is enforcing 16+ UN resolutions that Iraq has violated blatantly. What part of that don't you understand? Or are facts optional in Denmark?]. On what point does thge US feel that he's a threat agains world pease, as Bush has stated several times? [already answered, Jonas]- When there's more evidence agains him, not having any weapons of mass destruction [complete BS. Take off the rose colored blinders, Jonas, and awaken from your appeasement brainwashing session, OK?]. This is a war for OIL [BS; prove it, Jonas, don't just parrot the crap coming off the Workers World Marxist Party posters], and because George Bush want's to prove himself wurthy as a president [BS, Jonas; prove it, especially after some crazed Islamic wackos murder 3000 Danish citizens in cold blood; oh, that didn't happen in your country?? Well it did in mine.]. Sadly, he's choosing very poorly [oh really? again, Jonas, you are full of criticism. What would you do???]. Why do you think there's so many protester's agains't this war? - There have never been so many protester's against before. Globally. [who freaking CARES? National policy cannot and should not be made based on polls; there are 6 billion people worldwide; even if I take your claim of a few million protesters, which I think is BS, that is less than 1% of world population; does that tell you anything? I guess, based on your "logic", that 99%++ of the world;s population is for the war, then?]" | ||
| john (Johnwto)
Junior Member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2002 |
i am embarrased to be canadian. we should be right beside the americans in battle.  | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2002 |
But on the subject of the British, Tony Blair is a wonderful man. What a great friend and ally... I thank them for their support. Patrick | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jonas has the right to his opinion but the fact remains that Saddam Hussein and his regime is brutal and needs to be removed, I know everyone agrees on this. You don't agree? Do a search on "Halabja." Jonas doesn't think we need to go to war over this. Should we have given more time to Saddam to disarm? He has had 12 years and most every government worldwide agrees that he still has chem and bio weapons. Hell, according to the Iraqi's they have no offensive weapons like Scuds. They launched atleast one two days ago into Kuwait. The United States is the infidel, a Zionist state that is evil... you think they like us? Saddam hates us and would be more than happy to kill every last American he could. Do you think he would go to the UN and try and get approval for attacking us? What if the Iraqi citizens want us to remove Saddam? What if they welcome the US/UK/Australian coalition? You think we are going to war over oil? You think France was the moral authority opposing us? France's Total Fina has more land and oil exploration rights in Iraq than ANY other country in the world save, of course, Iraq. Those rights would most likely be removed if we got rid of Saddam and his chronies. THAT is why France is so opposed to military action. The free world can state their opinion and express what they think... that is what makes the US and other free countries so great. They can't do that in Iraq. I didn't vote for Bush, I think he is doing a fantastic job though. Patrick | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 255 Registered: 2-2003 |
Additionally, who CARES ABOUT PROOF?? Shall we wait until the proof is death and destruction? You should applaud the U.S. and U.K. for taking a stand and saying "we're going to shape the world in our mold, and threats to peace will be eradictated forcibly." Screw proof | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 254 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jonas, the plain and simple fact is that Dave is right. Why allow a dictator (who starves his people while his son has a 1,200 car collection) to stockpile weapons of mass destruction? Only in the United States (and the U.K.) are people allowed to say whatever they think and be left alone by others. We are under no obligation to "leave Iraq alone!" Should we allow irresponsible, nearly insane dictators like Hussein to grow technology until they have the means to hurt our allies? NO. You're entitled to your views, (this is, after all, a free country, unlike Iraq), but you're WRONG. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 287 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gawd, I really can't type. Let's try this again: Jonas, let's play a little word game, my socialist friend. Let's take your quotation & substitute "Saddam Hussein" for "George Bush": Saddam Hussein is an powersick and war-horny dude. He's an evil man. He has no right to make demands on the world or the US, and tell them what to do. If Bush had let the UN do it's alleged "work", we would have had 12 more years of nothing but dithering, gum-flapping, and more Saddam Hussein anthrax weapons, and more attacks on the US, followed by more French & German & Russian & Danish calls to leave him alone. But noo, will Hussein start another war? Who's gonna be next? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Jordan or Israel? Can't figure out why you keep defending that man Hussein. Sure sounds more truthful my way. Jonas, if you are going to blindly attack our president, whom you obviously don't know beyond what the Socialist Party tells you, at least get your damn facts straight, you ignorant hypocrite. And enjoy your 90% income tax. Nice one Dave. Maybe you should get your fact's straight. Saddam Hussein is not posing a threat for the United States, he has not ever stated that he wanted to destroy the US. Osama Bin Laden has stated that serveral times. But not Saddam Hussein. I'm am not trying to protect Saddam Hussein, but I am against the way the US does it. There's no proof that he has anymore chemical and biological weapons. January 1993: Iraq forbids UNSCOM-inspectors to fly over the nation 19. january 1993: Frankrig, England and USA engages airstrikes in southerin Iraq June 1994: UNSCOM-inspectors succeed in destroying large portions of chemical weapons. 1. july 1995: Iraq declares, that there are biological and chem. weapons in there line of offence, and weapons program. July 1995: UNSCOM-Inspectors watch as the chem. and bio. weapons are being destroyed. March 1996: UNSCOM-inspectors is denied acces to five improtant sites, authorizesation is givin' after some waiting. May-june 1996: UNSCOM-inspectors supervices the destruction of al-Hakam, which was the last of Iraq's primary chem. and bio. warfare facility's 5. august 1998: The Revolutionary Comitee's Council, decides to stop the embargo on Iraqi oil, and pull out UNSCOM-inspectors. No more weapons are to be found. Still, due to these reports, that everyone can pull of the internet. US feels the urge to go to war. Even without a reason. On what point does thge US feel that he's a threat agains world pease, as Bush has stated several times? - When there's more evidence agains him, not having any weapons of mass destruction. This is a war for OIL, and because George Bush want's to prove himself wurthy as a president. Sadly, he's choosing very poorly. Why do you think there's so many protester's agains't this war? - There have never been so many protester's against before. Globally. | ||
| John A (Jarends)
Junior Member Username: Jarends Post Number: 200 Registered: 7-2001 |
Hey Dave, don't feel to bad about spelling. When you're pissed off, nothing works right. Sooo. I'n woth you Dave, Sh*t I can't believe I'm actually as close as this chat to a anti-war (anti normal). The gross supidity and lack of wisdom shown by these (Dave: your last sentence, I can't do better). Strength equals freedom: Maybe Jonas should give Saddam (frickin hate that name) refuge and stop the war. I praise and respect the work our brave boy and girls are doing for us. GOD BLESS THEM and all our partners mentioned here. I wouldn't hesitate to fight with them and for them either. Hey Bruce: thanks for starting a thread that allows me to take a stand. John | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 900 Registered: 1-2002 |
Gawd, I really can't type. Let's try this again: Jonas, let's play a little word game, my socialist friend. Let's take your quotation & substitute "Saddam Hussein" for "George Bush": Saddam Hussein is an powersick and war-horny dude. He's an evil man. He has no right to make demands on the world or the US, and tell them what to do. If Bush had let the UN do it's alleged "work", we would have had 12 more years of nothing but dithering, gum-flapping, and more Saddam Hussein anthrax weapons, and more attacks on the US, followed by more French & German & Russian & Danish calls to leave him alone. But noo, will Hussein start another war? Who's gonna be next? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Jordan or Israel? Can't figure out why you keep defending that man Hussein. Sure sounds more truthful my way. Jonas, if you are going to blindly attack our president, whom you obviously don't know beyond what the Socialist Party tells you, at least get your damn facts straight, you ignorant hypocrite. And enjoy your 90% income tax. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 899 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jonas, let's play a little war game, my little socialist friend. Let's take your quotation & substitute "saddam Hussein" for "George Bush": Saddam Hussein is an pwoersick an war-horny dude. He's an evil man. He has no right to make demands on the world or the US, and tell them what to do. If Bush had let the UN do it's work, we would have had 12 more years of nothing but dithering, gum-flapping, and more Saddam Hussein weapons, and more attacks on the US, followed by more French & German & Russian & Danish calls to leave him alone. Sure sounds more truthful my way. Jonas, of you are going to blindly attack our president, at least get your damn facts straight, you ignorant hypocrite. And enjoy your 90% income tax. But noo, Bush had to start another war. Who's gonna be next? China? France? Korea or Israel? Can't figure out why you voted that man president. | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Junior Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 230 Registered: 9-2002 |
"If Bush had let the UN do it's work" Then we would still be let around the block by Sadam and @$$holes. I to believe the US is in it for the wrong reasons, but Sadam just had to be stopped. If they did it for oil or to help the Iraqi people, at least some1 did something. Now lets hope it won't go the same route it went in '91, with the US abandoning the Iraqi people, because that would be a shame. I regret the fact that we (the netherlands), as small as we are, aren't helping out. Mostly because while forming a goverment (as we speak) 1 of the biggest parties said, we are against the war (and therefor we did nothing) but now they are saying we should help (but it can't be done anymore). It's just to much politics going on over here. Hopefully it end as soon as possible, but until that time let's make the best of it. Ps. "and a silent assasin to take him out." This is always said by people watching to much James Bond etc. If this was the possibility it would have happend 20 years ago. A complete regime needs to be taken down, not just 1 men (although of great importance) | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 286 Registered: 11-2002 |
And God Bless those English soldiers. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2002 |
The war is the most stupid ever. I think it's allright that countries wan't to help USA, but USA it attacking for the wrong reasons. George Bush is an pwoersick an war-horny dude. He's an evil man. He has no right to make demands on Iraq, and tell them what to do. If Bush had let the UN do it's work, we would have a peacefull disarment, and a silent assasin to take him out. But noo, Bush had to start another war. Who's gonna be next? China? France? Korea or Israel? Can't figure out why you voted that man president. | ||
| Eric (Vette)
New member Username: Vette Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2003 |
my condolences and thanks go out to the British and american families of the downed soldiers in the helicopter crash..american here, member of the national guard. 12 good men were lost, and im sure all will be missed very, very badly | ||
| michael dipple (Viking)
New member Username: Viking Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi Guys,yes Im british, and I thank every one that has gone over there to get rid of that bastard.Lets pray not to maney people die in the process | ||
| DONALD GRIESDALE (Griesdale)
Junior Member Username: Griesdale Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2001 |
If it wasn't for our a**hole Prime Minister, we Canadians could send both ships from our navy to help out!! Perhaps after George Bush is finished in Iraq he can invade Canada and give us a regieme change too. GOOD ON THE YANKS AND BRITS!! Don. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 460 Registered: 1-2002 |
I, too, would like to give the British special thanks, but also the Spanish, Italians and last, but not least, the Aussies. A special note to all our international friends here. I support what we are doing and hope that history will show that it is a courageous and humanitarian act. However, those of you who may oppose it should also know that I and others like me also feel great sadness that violence has become necessary in this instance. Thamks for reading. Dave | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2002 |
Let's just be thankful that Ferrari stayed with Bridgestone! Japan is with us! | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 297 Registered: 9-2001 |
I too would like to thank the Brits. I pray that this will end soon and the people of Iraq can start rebuilding. My thoughts and prayers are with all the families envolved. | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2002 |
lets's not forget our good friends Lotus, Aston, and Jag. Luke. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 878 Registered: 5-2002 |
Now if the British citizens will finally realize that BRUTE FORCE is the only way to deal with evil monsters, then maybe they will allow their own citizens to own firearms so that they might defend themselves in times of need. But then nobody would ever round up innocent citizens and kill them. NO WAIT, that's exactly what happened in northern Iraq during the past few days when 61 young Iraqi men were executed by Iraqi troops so that they would not rebel against Hussein's government now that the attack is on. Too bad those Iraqi guys weren't armed. But that could never happen in Britain, or Iraq, or Cambodia, or Rwanda, or Yugoslavia, etc, ad infinitum... | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 397 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ok, I can bring this thread back on topic. Next tires will not be Michelin but Dunlops would be on the list (pretty sure Goodyear owns them now but the history is yours.) Mucho thanks for the support and the sacrifice... - JMG PS, of all of the crap we have to sort through on the main board...this is one I could see letting go past the "off topic sensors" | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1801 Registered: 4-2002 |
AMEN TOMMY..... | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 858 Registered: 5-2001 |
Isn't that great? I'm glad we've all been able to sweep that whole revolutionary war thing under the rug. Thanks to the British and to all the others that are helping us rid that monster and his thug children from the people of Iraq. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1800 Registered: 4-2002 |
NICE CONTRIBUTION, HORSEFLY THANK YOU JOHN | ||
| John (Johno)
New member Username: Johno Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2002 |
You are more than welcome. I can't say I agree with GWB's politics. However, despite the physical distance, the American people have been, and always will be, our closest friends and allies. Warmest wishes from "across the Pond". John | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 877 Registered: 5-2002 |
And they proudly raised the OFF TOPIC flag!!! | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1093 Registered: 3-2001 |
And all our other allies who are joining the US in this effort !!! | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
Junior Member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ditto that. Regards. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1799 Registered: 4-2002 |
WITH THE WAR GOING ON OVER IN IRAQ, AND SOME OF OUR ALLIES HELPING US, I CANNOT SAY HOW MUCH WE APPRECIATE THE BRITISH PEOPLE, MILITARY, AND TONY BLAIR FOR ALL YOUR HELP, SUPPORT, AND FIREPOWER YOU HAVE SHOWN AND GIVEN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT AND TO ALL THE ENGLISH/BRITISH PEOPLE HERE ON F-CHAT..YOU GUYS ARE GREAT BRUCE |