| Author | Message | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1357 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yesterday I was thumbing through some old Prancing Horse magazines looking for something entirely different when a single sentence jumped out at me. It was something like, "When he bought the 500 TRC, it had the accelerator pedal in the middle." Intent on finding whatever it was I was looking for, I set the magazine aside and made a mental note to pull it out later and tell you all about it. Now I can't remember which issue it was in and I can't find it again. I think it was an article about a 500 TRC and a 500 Mondial or something like that. Oh well! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1313 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bret, you've got mail. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3364 Registered: 2-2001 |
I do indeed work at CC. I'm a mechanic, I look at it as being more of an apprentice to the head mechanic right now (he's the man, it's actually ridiculous how good he is at doing anything remotely related to cars). Gotta work to pay those 308 bills. All in all, it's a pretty cool place, always something interesting going on. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wonder why the pedal configurations were set up the way they are in road cars. Why the difference? It seems like the center throttle is a pretty good idea. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 898 Registered: 10-2002 |
002M? | ||
| Brian Keegan (4redude)
Junior Member Username: 4redude Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2002 |
I once drove a 1952 or 1953 Formula 2 car that had the center accelerator arrangement with the shifter being on the left side of the tunnel (under my left knee). Gave me a whole new respect for the drivers of that era. Also once saw one of the 375 monoposto's (early 50's Indy model?)with the same arrangement. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1305 Registered: 8-2002 |
BretM, is this where you work? http://www.ccferrari.com/Menu.html What do you do there? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1304 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Jeff! Sounds like PSK is right that it was something used by Ferrari on the monoposti only and probably due to space contraints/driver position as mentioned in your post. This information is completely new to me! I guess I will have to pay closer attention the next time I see an early monoposto in person. Taek-Ho: I'm fairly certain that this setup has never been used by Ferrari on any of the road cars. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4242 Registered: 12-2000 |
Where do you work Bret? What do you do? Umm, "We had a 166MM in for awhile". Sounds like my dream job. I just went into Norwoods and found James head up under the back wheel well of a Daytona Spider. I said "James, you have my dream job." He replied "let's trade". | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 195 Registered: 12-2002 |
From "The Racing Driver" by Denis Jenkinson (1958): "When sitting in a normal posture, and assuming the driver is of normal build, the toes tend to turn outwards, so that an ideal place for the brake pedal was on the right of the accelerator pedal. Thus could the "heel and toe" changing method be used without any contortions of the foot other than a simple hinging about the ankle joint. In consequence the "heel and toe" method is still used by racing drivers, and Maserati and Ferrari have the accelerator pedal to the left of the brake pedal." It goes on to describe the different techniques used with the different layouts, and relates the story of von Trips switching between a "sports" Ferrari and a "Gran Turismo" Ferrari at the Nurburgring, the two cars having different systems, and crashing badly when he confused the pedals. A quick look through some old magazines revealed two Ferraris with central throttles: the "Thinwall Special", and the 555 Squalo of 1954. I'll look again this evening and see if I can find some others, and some pictures. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 895 Registered: 10-2002 |
A recent "Classic Cars UK" is where I think that I read/misread? that it had a center throttle but it's likely you're correct. Best Jim | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3359 Registered: 2-2001 |
I bet it would make it awefully interesting if you went to dump the clutch and your foot caught the gas pedal with it... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 224 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes the prewar Bentleys did have that pedal set up, not just the Blower Bentley. I would think that the center throttle would be good for heel and toeing. That's why I'm wondering why they did without it. Again, I think that Ferraris used this setup for their race cars up to the Dinos. It seems that they didn't for any of their road cars though. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1302 Registered: 8-2002 |
On page 38 of Forza issue #44 (April 2003) there is a cockpit photo of 166 Spyder Corsa s/n 016-I which shows an elongated pedal, likely the accelerator, to the far right with two smaller pedals to the left. Assuming this reflects the car's original configuration, it doesn't appear that the centrally-located accelerator pedal was being used by Ferrari as of 1949, at least not in this particular car. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne and Jim, I am a huge fan of monoposti and thus have plenty of books that cover the whole history. I'm also an Alfisti and thus have plenty of Alfa Romeo books ...  I also have Nick Mason's 'Into the Red' book where he drives some of his collection and this book mentions the Alfa 8c2300 having the centre throttle. The reference to the Ferrari accident at Monaco was in a Classic and Sportscar magazine and also showed the horrific pictures of the damage, and mentioned that the driver had got confused and hit the wrong pedal ... cannot remember if they directly refered to the throttle being in the centre or not. I must admit to being more concerned that the driver decided to continue and finish the race (last lap accident) while fluids were spewing and bits falling off!. The magazine went on saying how cool this was and bravo ... personally all I can think is what a dickhead, risking all that expensive and old components JUST to look like a hero. What is classic racing coming to, when the driver thinks they are more important than displaying the cars  ... I guess some just don't get it, and the cars get ruined during the ego massage. Accidents happen but driving on only makes the damage worse ... and unless you are going to get serious championship points, why bother. Thus I am not too sure now if this Ferrari had the centre throttle or the driver just made a mistake. Will (time permitting) have a flick through a few books ... As Jim pointed out, must be challenging in the heat of the moment as some cars have reverse gear shifting as well and other weird handling traits, etc. Pete | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 883 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne I believe the "oldest Ferrari 002?" that recently sold at auction in Swisserland was a two seater and had this arrangement. Best Jim | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 393 Registered: 2-2003 |
I can only speak from having read tons of literature about early Ferraris, and from having sat in quite a few early monoposti at Chinettis. I cannot remember any having the center-mounted throttle. I though this went out in the late '20s to early '30s? James Glickenhaus would probably know, but I thought several Bugattis had this set up. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1298 Registered: 8-2002 |
These are all pre-war racers. Anybody know of a reference to any Ferraris with this setup? | ||
| GThomas (Ferrariartist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrariartist Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2003 |
maybe some help: I found this but i cant vouch for its authenticity or for the authors background or expertise.. just a search result on the 'net ...although he seems to know a great deal about what he's talking about.. the subject: a great grandfather of a Ferrari: a 1925 Fiat racer. about half-way down the page: "...All will be revealed in good time. The driver's seat is marginally ahead of the passenger's, with a footwell where the pedals end. The pedal arrangement is also typical of that era, with the accelerator in the middle, and the brake at the right.... " http://www.bsmotoring.com/2002/02may14_1.htm | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
New member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think some of the blower bentleys had this set-up too-not that uncommon in the early days of racing. The sony beta of pedal arrangements | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 877 Registered: 10-2002 |
The incident Pete brought up is no joke. All of my cars have controls and shift patterns that are quite different. Before I drive any of them I do a "pre flight". I walk around the car. I sit down and reach for the controls esp. the kill switch and fire button. I stare at the shifter and run my hand through the pattern. The damage and danger not taking a pause before setting off can cause is very serious. Best Jim | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1297 Registered: 8-2002 |
Taek-Ho & Pete, Not being a huge fan of the mopoposti, I don't have a lot of reference material on them. Looking through what I do have, however, I can't find a single reference to this unusual pedal placement. I'm really fascinated at the opportunity to learn something new like this! Where did the two of you gather this information? Can either of you recommend any reference material where I can read more about it? Thanks. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think they had center throttles up to the racing dinos. But I was wondering to make sure up to what model and if any of the street cars had this. Thanks James for posting it in the right place. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 324 Registered: 11-2002 |
My understanding is that Ferrari only did this with his very early single seaters, but many Alfa race cars and others of this period had the centre pedal accelerator and right hand brake. This was for better heeling and toeing. I remember not long ago that somebody crashed a Ferrari 375 F1 thingy at Monaco classic meeting because he forgot and hit the loud (accelerator) pedal instead of the brake. Oops. Going back to the Alfas I think an 8c2300 has the centre accelerator and thus assume that the 6c1750, etc. has the same ... thus we are talking 30's but the Ferrari single seaters would have to be very, very late 40's. Pete | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3341 Registered: 2-2001 |
We had a 166MM in for awhile, just left this weekend, definitely had a normal pedal setup. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1296 Registered: 8-2002 |
Taek-Ho Kwon posted: "I know the early Ferrari racers had center mounted accelerator pedals in the middle, like the Alfas. Did any of the road cars have this layout? When did they stop doing this?" All I can say is "Wow." I wasn't aware that the early cars had the Go-pedal in the middle! Which cars? The 125s? The 166s? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 876 Registered: 10-2002 |
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/14/227669.html?1049173637 |