| Author | Message | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 260 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think most of the F1 clutch wear issues are driver-skill related. (and derivitive of the F1 system) If you don't accelerate with *conviction* when you're creeping away from a light, the box will slip the clutch rather a lot. Same with backing up, etc. I am not sure, but I'm half convinced the box 'rides' teh clutch all the time, unless you physically put the car in nutural. I want a 5.5"" 3puck carbon clutch, that LIKES abuse :D) Best! Ben. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Junior Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2003 |
Noel-My heart goes out to you. Having a USA 360 doesn't mean anything special to me. I admire all Ferrair's and living in Indiana it's a special day (week or month) to see any F cars. The amount of money that Ferrari makes selling any of their cars, they should cover at least parts for known defects. Do they think we will only purchase only one car. Back the car and build a great customer relationship! | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
New member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2003 |
What I dont understand is why Ferrari cant make a clutch with a longer life expectancy than 5K-10K. I am no car technician and Ferrari is my favorite car by far, but BMW makes a similar HP manual car (the M5) and its clutch is warrantied to 4 years or 50,000 miles. Why cant an F car be at least half as good? | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2003 |
I agree with Arthur Chambers. The solution lies with Ferrari in Italy. They built the car. FNA had nothing to do with it. A good compromise would be to provide all the parts and you pay the labor. There are three words that scare mature companies: "Class Action Lawsuit". If a lot of the owners are having the same problem and the company doesn't address them, you could have a good case. Places like FC.com are great places to start knitting all the affected people together. But let's hope the factory steps up and addresses this. I am optimistic they will. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 615 Registered: 4-2002 |
Noel, my condolences, F are shites for not stumping up, its a world product in a world market, NO EXCUSES!!!!! Its crap like this that puts me off ever buying a new F car (it kinda pisses me to even own a used one with such crappy support philosophy). Those who say tough, you got it cheap, well I'm saddened for them, you didn't get it cheap because it was mechanically inferior so it shouldnt make one iota of diff, they are clearly a bit envious of someone who has the savvy to get the best deal on a new vehicle. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2249 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Countach had that problem, it was worn synchros. Wierd it would happen in a new car like your 360. Good Luck | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4294 Registered: 5-2001 |
dr. Martin, that would have made a great European trip if you ask me. Figure that $3500 for the assembly is already paid for by Ferrari Italy. Shipping back and forth would be $ 10K, so you actually only pay $ 6.500 and that basically covers your rental fee for 2 weeks in lovely Tuscany! Ah, Italy in your own Ferrari! Itza Lika dreama come truea. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4293 Registered: 5-2001 |
First off if I remember correctly Noel was moving from England to the US and brought his 360 Spider with him. So no need to go off on him...lalala you brought this on yourself. Second, it is a disgrace that Ferrari does not honor the warranty in the US on other countries cars, especially with issues that are "known" problems. FNA could be reimbursed by FerrariSpa for these repairs. Third, at least cover the parts for these repairs. Nothing easier for Ferrari Spa to reimburse FNA for these parts thay have to use in warranty repairs. Yes, Noel bought the car for less and knew that it will not be honored, the system stick sucks and is meant to protect FNA dealers from price gouging. See also the suit filed by FNA against importers. Ther eis a clear attempt from FNA to keep the market to themselves. Noel sorry to hear that. Hope you still enjoy driving in your 360 after the work is done. Martin | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2808 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sometimes the clutches, or the device that modulates the clutches on the F1 trannies can come out of adjustment, which leads to premature wear. All it takes is your dealer to hook it up to a small diagnotics box, and in 10 minutes its fixed. If it feels like its not grabbing as soon as it did, this could be your problem. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 858 Registered: 5-2001 |
Art, I'll bet Ferrari spa will say exactly what they said to me when I needed new headlight assemblies due to a manufactoring error on early 360's."Ship the car to Italy and we will replace the headlight assemblies" but they refused to send the new assemblies.FNA of course did not honor the warranty.--Catch 22 1/2!! So I replaced them at my own expense.lol. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 306 Registered: 3-2001 |
Whart, FYI, labor amount $1400 & parts amount $2402.79....Also, it wouldn't have been covered under warranty in Europe. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 305 Registered: 3-2001 |
Lou you are right that none of the manuals etc. give any indication as to the life expectancy of the clutch.....which is why I wrote "At no time when I was considering the purchase of a car with an F1 transmission did the dealer inform me of this ridiculously low life expectancy, and no mention of it is made in any of the manuals (operator or service).".....Apologises if my comments were ambiguous. However, (and this should answer your comment Doody)....When I started experiencing the problem with my clutch at 5500 miles and was informed that Ferrari weren't going to contribute to the costs of the repair, I asked the dealer what was the typical life expectancy on the clutch they told me @ 10k. Shocked at this, I called my dealer in the UK and they said 8k up to 12k. I thought both these guesstimates were low and I wanted an 'official' answer regarding my repair and the estimated clutch life expectancy (as I maintained that I had driven the F1 exactly as suggested and to need a new clutch a 5500 miles was absurd.) I spoke with the head of technical services/service network at Ferrari North America. His name I believe was Adam, he was actually English, and had just moved from Ferrari UK. Ferrari's position on the clutch life was typically 5k-10k miles. Below 5k and they would look hard to see if there was a mechanical problem causing premature clutch wear....above 12k miles, and they thought you were doing well. He spent about an hour on the phone with me explaining shift strategies, PIS settings, % clutch wear data etc. which was why I was able to tell Noel what to look for regarding his clutch and why I made the statement regarding 'official' clutch life expectancy. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1263 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ferrari in Italy has a duty to warranty the vehicle. Ferrari North America Doesn't. I suggest writing to the factory, tell them of the problem, and ask for the parts to resolve the problem. If they don't provide it, you may have recourse. | ||
| Tom Lassen (Nzo4re)
New member Username: Nzo4re Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2003 |
Noel, Did you try getting it serviced in Canada? | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 976 Registered: 11-2001 |
ferrari makes no such statement about clutch life. gimme a break. i could imagine some technicians at some shops making such claims on anecdotal evidence, but one must also keep in mind how their bread gets buttered. doody. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 900 Registered: 12-2001 |
To what extent is this problem endemic to the design, construction or fabrication of the gearbox? I assume there is little, if any, difference between the box in a Euro and a US certified car.If the car were still in Europe, would the warranty cover it there? To what extent is the 5 large a parts charge, and how much of it is labor? (I assume the latter is the lion's share). But, for the sake of argument, wouldn't you still be entitled to warranted parts in Europe? And, as James said, whassup with these gearboxes anyway? | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2001 |
Jason: Where does Ferrai state "officially" that the clutch life is only 5-10K? I check all my books and files and can't find anything. I am at 13k and 6 track events and my clutch is fine. Just curious. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 982 Registered: 10-2002 |
IMHO this raises several issues. It looks like the shop you are using is well set up, clean, and protecting your car as they work on it and as you realize the Euro issue isn't their fault. They are obviously doing the work and your going and checking it out is also helpfull and something I highly reccomend and is a fun and interesting part of the process. You're a big boy and Ferrari is Ferrari and your post is informative and interesting and why it should elicit "tough" is beyond me. In these times EVERYONE can use a little sampathy. Jason's point is interesting as well. The F1 box in my Maser is warranteed for 50,000 miles whats up with early 360 boxes? As far as Ferrari warrentees go over many years I've found them to be more than reasonable. I realize I have a long, good relationship with my dealer. I've never asked what any car I bought from them would cost, I've never paid over list, most times under list, I've never waited for any car and they've always gotten me the colors and options I've wanted. I've never taken advantage of that either. I've never bought a car to flip. Under warrantee they've replaced the motor in my 308, repainted my 308 completely, rebuilt the motor in my TR, replaced the cornors on my TR, welded the chassis on my TR, replaced the seatbelts on my TR, replaced the window motors on my 308 and anything else that I felt I was entitled to. Owning one of these cars is a long and winding river that flows both ways. Best Jim | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 711 Registered: 1-2002 |
henryk- What a way to support a fellow enthusiast. Good job! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2002 |
If it isn't under warranty, I would INSIST on having all of the old parts returned to me, to make sure they were actually replaced. And if ANYTHING wasn't returned (other than fluids) I wouldn't pay them a dime for the repair. Isn't that your right? | ||
| noel smith (Noel)
Junior Member Username: Noel Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2003 |
henry, you seem like a very, cool sensible person. bottom line: if i made a product here in chicago and sold it world wide, but told my non-american customers that i wouldn't stand by my product(when all of my competitors do), that would be reprehensible. I didn't post the photos for sympathy, i'm a big boy and i can handle it. I paid less for the car than if were a USA car and somehow i'll live. I just thought other Ferrari owners might benefit from the info...cheers to all. | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
New member Username: The_bart Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2003 |
Your car looks unhappy. If that is only $5K, be happy. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 304 Registered: 3-2001 |
Noel, Thanks for the kind words... Henryk, those are some pretty obnoxious and uninformed comments you make in this thread. Firstly, it wouldn't have made a stuff of difference whether this car was a Euro or US version (whatever the hell that really means since they're all made in Europe anyway)....Ferrari don't warrant the clutch (and don't kid yourself that they would stump up any money towards it), so wherever the car had come from Noel would still be out of pocket to the tune of $5000. I suspect what Noel hadn't PLANNED on was purchasing a vehicle for nearly $200,000 that has a clutch life expectancy of 5k to 10k miles (as officially stated to me by FNA)....At no time when I was considering the purchase of a car with an F1 transmission did the dealer inform me of this ridiculously low life expectancy, and no mention of it is made in any of the manuals (operator or service). Furthermore I see no reason why the US dealer network should be 'protected'. I can purchase a Ferrari anywhere in Europe regardless of where I live, and under EU legislation, Ferrari (and all manufacturers) must honour their warranties. Why shouldn't a consumer be able to take advantage of market price dislocation? Ferrari and the dealer network do precisely the same thing themselves; which is why you can see a 360 spider flipped back to a dealer with an asking price of $250,000. All protectionism does is generate over inflated prices....for the cars, the parts and the service costs whilst delivering poor customer service (as can be seen in multiple thread on this site regarding shoddy customer treatment...there's one running now 'brand new 360 in shop for a month'). Having first hand experience of Ferrari ownership in Europe & the USA, I feel confident in saying the USA Ferrari division is bollocks!! | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 633 Registered: 8-2001 |
Wayne: While I agree with you, the fact is that he didn't PLAN on spending $5K more, to make the car right. That may be $5,000 that he doesn't have at this time. I still feel that he took a chance, and lost!!!!!!! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1380 Registered: 8-2002 |
Henryk, I'm sure he's still way ahead of the game. There's much more than $5000 difference between the selling prices of U.S. and Euro 360 Spiders. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 631 Registered: 8-2001 |
Noel: How can anyone feel sorry for you? When you bought the car, a euro version, you must have known that there was no warranty. You obviously paid less for the car to begin with. You took a chance, paid less, and lost!!!!!!!! Tough!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Robert (Rjklein4470)
Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2002 |
Noel, This problem happend to me. I took it to a dealer and they told me the same song and dance and it would be $ 5k. So before I took it in for service I got the manual out and read about the F1 system. I found out the F1 oil system is very sensitive to the level. I checked the oil level, and found out it was a little low. I topped it off and the car shifted perfect. I think some times the dealers use this to get in your wallet. Now you could have a real problem, I am not sure. Rob | ||
| noel smith (Noel)
Junior Member Username: Noel Post Number: 179 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jack, it's lake forest. | ||
| Bak-a-lack-a Bak-a-lacka-lacka ! (Chris_n_chicago)
Member Username: Chris_n_chicago Post Number: 402 Registered: 3-2002 |
my condolences Noel. { those fuckers, should back the car - euro, shmur-o .... } | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1376 Registered: 8-2002 |
"It's lame that Ferrari won't stand behind it's product because it's a euro." I understand you're saying that out of frustration, but surely you understand the need for Ferrari to support its U.S. dealer network. As well, I'm certain you must have considered the possibility of out-of-pocket repair costs when you were purchasing the car at a substantial savings over the price of a U.S. model. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 781 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jack, looks like Continental to me. | ||
| Blue Knight (Blue_knight)
New member Username: Blue_knight Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2003 |
well, hope your ride will be back on the road soon.... | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 709 Registered: 3-2002 |
Noel, what shop is that? | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 125 Registered: 12-2002 |
still sexy, despite it all. | ||
| noel smith (Noel)
Junior Member Username: Noel Post Number: 178 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is my car at the shop. It had the infamous "popping into neutral for no reason" problem. Basically this is a factory fault and because my car is a euro it's all out of pocket, roughly the lion's portion of 5 grand. This has happened to a few other F-chatters(my empathies), and it sucks. It's lame that Ferrari won't stand behind it's product because it's a euro. Also, I wanted to thank Jason Fraser for giving me good advise about what to ask for and look out for(he had the same problem with his car), truley a nice and helpful man.     |