| Author | Message | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 689 Registered: 12-2002 |
Well said Angelo and Vince...There is no right answer to this debate, but its fun to hear everyones justifications to their own opinions. | ||
| ANGELO ALBANESE (Lbanez)
New member Username: Lbanez Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2001 |
Look at it this way, when a mother(the factory) gives birth to a child (the car) , no matter who the father is(pininfarina, scalgetti, bertone,etc),no matter what, you can't change the fact that it is a FERRARI,be it 4-6-8-12 cyl(brothers & sister), 1-2 or 4 seats ,(look at your own family, no one's the same)it's still a FERRARI !!, if my VIN tag says it's a FERRARI(the car) , made in the mother(the factory)......IT'S A FERRARI !!!....SO PLEASE END THE REAL OR NOT REAL BECAUSE OF THIS OR THAT........not all children are born perfect(brothers & sisters)........I hope this concludes the fact ANY CAR THAT COMES OUT THE FACTORY(the Mother)....is indeed a FERRARI | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 992 Registered: 10-2002 |
Des The last road legal cars that you could actually drive legally on the road, to the track, and win a real race in were built in 1967. The Enzo is a street legal race car experience but it is not a race car that could finish first overall at LeMans today. There is a Ferrari GTO that finished LeMans and drove back to Paris that night to celerbrate. The GT40ies could do it. The Chapparals could. The 250LM and the GTO's could but those days are gone forever. Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 983 Registered: 5-2002 |
"I guess we need to exchange the internal combustion engine for a steam boiler powered by either coal or wood. " Why not use "producer gas" instead? Producer gas is technically midway in evolution between steam power and gasoline power. Heating wood inside an enclosed vessel will produce a flammable gas that can then be piped into the conventional intake systems of standard internal combustion engines. The necessary heat for cooking the wood inside the vessel is obtained, ironically, by simply burning more wood. Sort of like cooking wood inside a pressure cooker. Used somewhat successfully in Australia during WWII when gasoline shortages were in effect. | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Junior Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 188 Registered: 6-2002 |
If you want a "real" manual transmission how about going back to the ones before synchromesh was invented? And while we're at it, let's go back to the days when tires had innertubes. Forget the current steering wheel, give us back the tiller. I guess we need to exchange the internal combustion engine for a steam boiler powered by either coal or wood. Progress is good. Competition from other manufacturers is good. Standing still in the development area is not good. I like the F1 system. If the Enzo isn't a Ferrari, then I guess I don't want a Ferrari anymore. The Enzo is a Ferrari. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3323 Registered: 8-2002 |
i've been trying to avoid this thread, because of the real emotion i have vested in the Enzo... Everytime i see it in person, i feel alive and a little weird... Maybe it's the anticipation of riding in one, i don't know... i agree with what someone else said about moving and changing with the times... The thing with this, though, is that the Enzo isn't packed full of modern technology... You still have to roll the windows down, manually - you know, like i do in my Saturn...? The car hasn't been refined for the 21st century, the Enzo is the result of years and years of race-bred thoughts, ideas, concepts and experience... When you get in, look all you want, but you'll find no cup holders... What you will find is the closest thing ANYONE could EVER come to making a road-legal racecar... i've never driven one, nor have i ever been in one (yet) - i've only seen one, twice... But the car is amazing and is just as much a Ferrari as the 166 Inter... It's funny, as i sit here and write this, my stomach hurts just thinking about the car... i get a little light-headed and i can feel the backs of my eyeballs getting watery... i LOVE this car... i'm so weird, it's ridiculous... | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 263 Registered: 8-2001 |
This is no joke and may give Ken a heart attack: MB has recently installed a joystick steering stick with an up/down shifter grip handle, in an S class and it is being tested on the road. They're talking about introducing it on future S class cars sometime before 2010, "AFTER a couple of years of "racing" application" (huh?). Maybe some day Ferrari F1 cars will have a Sony product in the cockpit... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4313 Registered: 5-2001 |
...since we are going back to the "old days" of racing in F1 they will also abolish the helmet law by 2005! You will finally see Michael smiling when he passes Coultard on the front straight of Indy. Will make for better viewer public access. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1398 Registered: 2-2001 |
F1 will not be going back to manuals any time soon. What the FIA said was that they were banning fully auto systems where drivers didnt even have to flick the paddles to up or down shift. Ernesto | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 685 Registered: 12-2002 |
Dont forget the early 4 cyl. race cars that Ferrari entered into a few competitions to back up the 12s. | ||
| BILL CHIUSANO (My355)
Junior Member Username: My355 Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2003 |
I LOVE MY F-1 SHIFTER AND DEFINATLY WILL PURCHASE ANOTHER W/ THE SAME!!  I DO UNDERSTAND THE DIE HARD GOTTA HAVE A MANUAL CLUTCH AND STICK WHATEVER BUT I MUCH PREFER THE F-1 OVER THE OLD SCHOOL MEATHOD (WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THOSE WHO DISAGREE) | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 441 Registered: 2-2001 |
Die Hard Ferrari owners claim the last Ferrari made was the Daytona, and some even question it's herritage; F1 is going back to stick shift, was going to be this season but looks like it may not be until next season now....Ferrari was one of the last racing companies to change from drum to disc brakes .... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4301 Registered: 5-2001 |
my car has disc brakes! Ferrari or not? | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 78 Registered: 8-2002 |
following Jere's thought - even before the Fiat era, Ferrari made 6 365GT2+2s with automatic tran between 1968 and 1971. Pietro Castiglione who puts on the Reading show owns one of them. Of course, these are 2+2s and therefore not real Ferr . . . . . .. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 340 Registered: 1-2003 |
I was just wondering. Wasn't the 400 Automatic introduced in 1976, under the watch of Enzo himself? Hmm, front engine V12, 4 seats and an automatic transmission with Enzo's blessing. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 986 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bart Mr Ferrari loved the F40. I think his comment about road cars (The F40) to a friend of mine sums it up: "I don't care if it has electric windows, (The Enzo doesn't) I don't care if the door seams are straight, (The ones on the Enzo are) but when he steps on the accelerator I wan't him to sh*t his pants." Trust me The Enzo would have made Mr. Ferrari very proud. | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
New member Username: The_bart Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mr. Ferrari believed all road cars should have a front engine V-12. I find it upsetting that a car built for the highway with a mid-engine is named after Mr. Ferrari. I do not think he would approve. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2002 |
F1 is a pushbutton-controled MANUAL transmission! In an F355/360, the two trannys themselves are identical, only the control linkage changes. Ernie, it also takes some measure of detachment from what you're doing to double clutch on a downshift anymore :P (heel-and-toe is what I think you ment, but I'll go on for no good reason now) with any road automobile gearbox built after say 1950 or so, Syncromesh cones have eliminated double-clutch from the vocabularily. It's as dead as hand-crank starters, or pulling the choke on anything US-Smog-2003 legal. I for one love sticks, and I do rather wish the Enzo was offered with BOTH tranny options (ala the 355/360/512) so I could have one of each! The F50 may be the last day for the Classic Ferrari Gated H-pattern, but remenber, even that was a new and directly race-derived bit many many years ago. Best! Ben. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2254 Registered: 2-2001 |
Thats silly, in that case no mid engine car is a Ferrari either cus Enzo once said " you dont put the cart before the horse" when engineers wanted to build mid engine cars. F1s have had paddle shifts for years & Michael did a lot of development work on the Enzo so its his baby. Sure beats the H out of Senna or Zanardi's NSX | ||
| Ken Ghiringhelli (Kenny94945)
New member Username: Kenny94945 Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2002 |
I humbly disagree with Ken's opening thread. Ferrari is about technology. Every model of Ferrari has been fine tuned by the factory over its product life. Parts in general have evolved from steel to aluminum, aluminum to titanium, titanium to carbon fiber. Transmissions have four speed to five speed to six speed to F-1. So, again I humbly disagree. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ken I'm gonna have to be the one that pops your bubble. Stick shifts are on the way out. They will be going the way of LP records, 8-track tapes, and very soon the VCR. If we stayed with the old stuff all the time, there would be a hand crank starter sticking out of the rear of your Ferrari. Or better yet, a collumn shifter in a 550. Hahahahaaaa. Yes it does take some skill to double clutch down shift while breaking, but remeber. With Ferrari's, or even any sports car, the name of the game is speed. So on the track, or even the back road twisties. Time saved shifting equals quicker times, getting from point A to point B. | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2003 |
Yeah okay, and if Enzo sent his frames and running gear down the block for Scaglietti, Pinin Farina, Zagato, Vignale, Drogo, Bertone, etc to install the bodies THEY designed and built, then the "Ferrari purists" should be driving frames around. Hmmm, it might be easier to spot them this way though... | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ken,I thought you were going to go with the fact that the car was designed by a Japanese designer working for Pinninfarina... | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 140 Registered: 4-2001 |
Am I wrong but isn't the F1 a manual transmission that modulates the clutch and gear changes manually by your finger via hydro/mechanicals rather than a linkage activated by your foot and shifter by your hand? There is no torque converter. Lots of loose talk about F1 and 6 speeds but both are 6 speed manual transmissions. Aren't they? I know the F1 has a silly "auto" mode which I don't know of any one ever using it. I think the future is F1 type shifters with convential hand/foot shifters being special orders if offered at all. Anyway, to each his own. | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
New member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2002 |
Think Ken may have forgotten it was Ferrari who invented the semi auto geabox and introduced it into F1 back in the late 80's so therefore its as much a genuine Ferrari feature as the V-12 (or the 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 cylinder Ferrari engines!) | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2653 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hehehe, you could've said the only "true" car left in the world was a Morgan, since it still used an ash-wood frame to support the body, sliding-pillar front suspension and "wing" fenders, but even that changed with the Aero-8... "...And that was the day, the music... died." Thank God for old, tatty used 308's with their 5-speeds and carbs! | ||
| Norman (Storminnormin)
Junior Member Username: Storminnormin Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2002 |
Well said, Mr Ausbrooks. It's exactly like the porsche air vs water cooled or rear vs front debate, and now the cayenne vs sports car debate. Ferrari has its 8 vs 12, front vs mid engine, 2 vs 2+2, pre vs post Enzo, pre vs post Fiat, manual vs F1. If either Porsche or Ferrari were as narrow-minded as some of the marques' enthusiasts, they would have already been consigned to history. I say the true Ferrari enthusiast embraces all models from the factory, admiring each for what it is. Each car that is graced with the cavallino rampante is a beautiful work of art worthy of the name and history of the marque. To disparage one model, or transmission, or engine type etc is to show an arrogance or ignorance that is not becoming of an enthusiast. | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
Junior Member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 205 Registered: 12-2002 |
How about Cayenee and Boxster?? Did it ruin true 911 heritage?? | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 677 Registered: 12-2002 |
LOL you guys are great. Its an endless debate. I dont know what a "true" ferrari may be but I think anything comming out of the factory (even dinos!) deserve recognition. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1394 Registered: 8-2002 |
The 360 isn't a Ferrari because it's a Dino. The 456 insn't a Ferrari because it has back seats. The Enzo isn't a Ferrari because it's standard with the F1 tranny. Same goes for all F1 shifting cars from Maranello. The 6-speed 575 isn't a Ferrari because it's too luxurious, this also applies to the 456 and its replacement, just in case any of you thought that the back seats weren't reason enough to exclude the 456. There are no longer any true Ferraris, therefore, there's no need for FerrariChat. Let's just close up shop here and all go back to whatever we were doing before. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 262 Registered: 8-2001 |
And how about those stupid digits, lights, bells and whistles, let's bring back those dial gauges, it took real men to read them and drive ! | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 261 Registered: 8-2001 |
Why not bring back drum brakes when real men used real calf muscles and a few seconds longer to slow down ! | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 447 Registered: 9-2002 |
Anything not made under the personal direction of Enzo himself is not a Ferrari. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 260 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ken. Ferrari is about speed, about winning, about technology. Walk down the pits and tell them to bring up clutch pedals and sticks and tell me how they respond. We should consider ourselves lucky that we our street cars benefit from Ferrari's real heartbeat : racing ! | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4370 Registered: 12-2000 |
Frank: Dino isn't a Ferrari Ken: F1 trans isn't a Ferrari Who's next on the list?  | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 594 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ken While I would much rather have a manual gearbox in an Enzo, Dr. Shelbee is spot on. The Enzo is the closest a road legal car has gotten to delivering F1 style technology and performance. | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
Junior Member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2002 |
I think you are totally wrong. Enzo is adapted from Formula 1. As far as I know nobody use manual transmission anymore on the F1, therefore they call it F1 transmission. Ferrari had F1 since first came out on 355 in 1998. Better technology, quicker and far more advance than any car in motorsports. I love the F1 shifter | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 301 Registered: 2-2002 |
Since the Enzo lacks a manual transmission, it is not a real Ferrari IMHO. All real Ferrari's come with a stick. The only person that needs (or can drive) a F1 transmission is MS, however, I still think he should have a stick too. Ken |