| Author | Message | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 267 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, I agree with your recomendation of the camera as a learning tool, and I'd like to add one more piece of advice, with the lense, mount it so you can not only see steering inputs, but throttle/brake/clutch too. Amazing what a valueable tool this can be. (the Pi/MoTec DAQs are also a godsend.) RE: ABS. Properly designed, a good ABS system will let you brake much later, as you can hold the brakes durning turn-in WITHOUGHT locking up the inside wheel, which you WILL DO with any manual system, I guarentee it. My ideal system for race (and probally street for that matter) is an no-power-assist, balance bar equiped, calibrable ABS intervention car  Leave ASR off, I wish it never came on any car. Might as well drive with no arms. Best! Ben. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 266 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, I agree with your recomendation of the camera as a learning tool, and I'd like to add one more piece of advice, with the lense, mount it so you can not only see steering inputs, but throttle/brake/clutch too. Amazing what a valueable tool this can be. (the Pi/MoTec DAQs are also a godsend.) RE: ABS. Properly designed, a good ABS system will let you brake much later, as you can hold the brakes durning turn-in WITHOUGHT locking up the inside wheel, which you WILL DO with any manual system, I guarentee it. My ideal system for race (and probally street for that matter) is an no-power-assist, balance bar equiped, calibrable ABS intervention car Leave ASR off, I wish it never came on any car. Might as well drive with no legs. Best! Ben. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 462 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thank you all for the help. hope to see many of you at the Glen on the 14th. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 529 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree, good place to learn, then shut it off in the dry. It's an asset in the wet. Yes, I do. It's Marelli if it's like 360 Challenge. If it is Pi, I can help you here too. Make shure you get the beacon with the system, this triggers a time stamp on the data for lap times, track maps, etc. They might run a few hundred $$ if it's not available. Marelli: Tony Wiltshire T W Racing Components 8847 Commerce Park Place Indianapolis, IN 46268 (317) 471-1559 Pi advertises in SportsCar. I have software for both, but I think you can download the latest for free or nominal charge. What your system does I can't tell over the internet, but most likely wheel speed for at least two wheels, probably all, engine rpm, all temps and pressures, possibly fuel pressure, lateral and longitudinal G's, if it's integrated into the ECU it will read any ECU monitored parameter including faults. One item you want if it's not installed (since you own it already) is steering wheel position. It will draw track maps, play video-game-like lap comparasons, do overlays of laps, export data for crunching in Exel, and more. Data interpretation is where the engineer comes in. This is an aquired skill, knowing what the "squiggles" mean and how to bennefit. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4432 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hey, I found out my 355 has the data acquisition. I think the Pi system or whatever all the Challenge cars used. Does anyone know what I need to do with it? Where I can get the software? What all does it monitor? | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 459 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dave!!!! Good to see you pal....nice addition to the board. For those on this thread...Dave is the principle of Servizio Per Ferrari. Top notch work. I believe Dave is going to have a crew up here (his operation is down in Jupiter Florida) for the summer. If you need your racecar transported and tended to at the track, I suggest you contact Dave. For the record, I have no affiliation with Servizio Per Ferrari. I do know they do great work. And yes Jon, you're right....I'm no fan of ARS. And Solly...great car for you to buy....never driven too hard, and serviced very well. | ||
| David M. Castelhano (Servizioman)
New member Username: Servizioman Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2003 |
Solly, The 360 Challenge comes with a fairly sophisticated data acquisition system installed in the car. It can easily monitor wheel speeds and g forces generated under braking. You just need a good laptop and a good technician to download all of the desired information | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 598 Registered: 8-2001 |
Solly, Rob would be the one to asnwer this question but in my opinion I would start off with the ASR on for a while. It's not the optimal way to teach but the 360 C will seem nothing like your 360 street car. The suspension is a ton stiffer and less forgiving. I know Karson hates ASR and all those electronic gizmo's from an instructor standpoint because it's harder to teach good driving habits as the ASR hides all sorts of mistakes. The brakes shouldn't need to be adjusted until you are really hammering the car and should have been set up fairly neutral by Shelton for a new customer. As you get faster and faster you will notice if the brake balance is to your liking. Brake balance can vary widely among different folks. I race Spec Racers and sometimes test other people's cars. I nearly wrecked one last year because the brake balance wasn't even close to what I prefer. I was amazed my friend could even drive the car yet he is a full second faster with a setup I can't drive. On the 355 C's we didn't have this option (ASR) and as a result some folks learned the hard way (read expesnive way). Just take it slow until you get used to the car. The 360 C is a wicked machine in the right hands. Regards, Jon | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 461 Registered: 6-2001 |
I know nothing of brake bias (except that on some cars it's adjustable front to rear). I've driven my 360 spider in numerous track events and had no problem braking where I wanted to until the brakes got too hot, which is when i pulled into the pits. I always ran in Sport mode, with ASR turned off. I know the Challenge car has bigger and better brakes than the stock 360, but do i have to worry about playing around with any settings for the brake system, or all they all programmed in already? What about ASR on a challenge car- on or off? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 528 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ahhh, the never ending quest for perfect brake bias in all situations... Not to bore anyone with details, but... PROPERLY DESIGNED ABS kicks butt. Not every braking situation is the same, and mechanically controlled bias is always a compromise, it's like a broken watch: it's right twice a day, then it's off by varying amounts at all other occasions. Balance bar systems are great for determining ultimate bias under maximum deceleration on a given track at a given time, etc. Hydraulic proportioning valves are good for varying load situations, but you're stuck with a built-in response curve, plus extreme variation unit-to-unit due to production tolerances (must be calibrated, which is never the case. If you use one, you must test the response first to know what it's doing, don't rely on manufacturer data). The ideal system in "active brake bias", kinda like engine traction control, only opposite in direction: ABS! Now, I know what you're thinking. Here is the qualifying statement: Properly Designed. There are many crappy systems, cutting manufacturing cost so there not quite up to it. Or, you go an change something of great engineering importance like tires. Now you have more grip, more weight transfer, computer doesn't know how to handle it. A purpose built sophisticated race car with ABS will be able to "tune" the ABS. I have Race Logics variable traction control in my personal car. It's got a knob to vary the % slip of the tires before it cuts injectors. This is what a race ABS system needs ultimately. Yes, the fast guys in Challenge always ran with ABS on. Plus, Ferrari acknowledged the programming bias issue with the F355 Challenge by mandating an ECU change in '97. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 597 Registered: 8-2001 |
Solly, A few lessons with Karson and you will be driving that car faster than it's ever gone. Jamie was a nice guy but he wasn't exactly one of the fast crowd. Someone told me he got lapped at Indy one year. Did Jamie buy another Ferrari? Matt: Can't make the Glen in May. Promsied the wife I wouldn't leave the DC area after May 1st in case she delivers our boy a bit early. What do you think about "Senna" as a middle name? I am cramming evrything into this and next week. 2 days this past week at Trackmasters, tomorrow back at Summit for test day, next Monday and Tuesday the Algar/FOW event and then Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is race weekend in the Spec Racer. Have fun at the Glen! Regards, Jon | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4347 Registered: 5-2001 |
Then I guess it was not the car that had the engine fire. Love it BTW. Hope there is a test drive in it next Cavallino | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 460 Registered: 6-2001 |
I did buy Jamie Ross' car. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 458 Registered: 3-2001 |
I'm really suprised that it was David Murray who was driving. I'd have thought he would be able to smell the antifreeze (as it doesn't seem like it was just water if everyone was sliding on it)...especially under braking. By the way...thanks for making my head too big. Are you coming up to the Glen for our May Event? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 595 Registered: 8-2001 |
Rob, All of them had ABS. You had the option of running them with or without ABS. As Rob S. can probably atttest to the faster guys used the ABS. When my car was setup I was asked which I prefer and I said to disconnect it. I have never liked the feel from the ABS and I brake extremely late at Summit Point (between 300 and 200 feet). In the past year or so I have toyed with the idea of putting it back on. In Monday's case I think the abscence of ABS saved me. When you watch the video (hopefully next week when it's done) you can see that I was able to control the slide and keep from spinning out of control by using my foot to modulate the brakes. I was able to keep control and then do a full lockup to prevent losing the tail. It all comes down to letting a computer decide what is best or letting your feet decide what's best. I have flat spotted more than a few cold tires at the track becasue the ABS was disconnected but this cost (maybe $1000 worth of rubber) pales in comparison to Monday's episode where I could have taken both cars out. I feel that ABS would have been a hinderence on Monday. Were I racing and had a crash damage budget then yes I would have it on to get that extra quarter second but not for track events. In the case of your car it was my understanding that Steve E. always ran faster with it on. Jim MCCormick and Jim Kenton of FOW also very fast guys (Kenton won the Championship one year from Steve) all ran faster laps with it on. I learned to race and drive with cars that didn't have many of todays electric gizmo's. I have always preferred to use my feet instead of computers. Just an opinion. Regards, Jon | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4413 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jon, don't all 355 C's have ABS or did you have yours turned off or did you flat spot them getting the 360 degree view of the world. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 593 Registered: 8-2001 |
Martin, I know of at least three white 360 C's all of them with Van Kempen sponsor decals. Jamie Ross up in NY owns one and I saw one at Lime Rock being driven by an older guy a year ago (not Jamie). In fact the car that Solly just bought looks like Jamie's old car and he was also the head of FOC Northeast Region. Looks like a FOC emblem on the roof. Might not be the same car but it doesn't hurt to check. Kevin, car is fine but I flat spotted a perfectly good set of new tires which I wasn't happy about. Watch the weather forcast to make a determination which day looks better. Calling for some rain on Tuesday but check your email Sunday. Weather forecast should be more accurate then. Jon | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4330 Registered: 5-2001 |
The drivers of these cars of course couldn't find the oil dipstick or know the difference between a spark plug and a shower plug. --- there is a difference ??? Solly, I could be off here. It was a white Van Kampen sponsored Challenge car that had an engine fire. Might want to give them a call to see if it was yours. If it was I'd talk to them about a check back to you. I could be off here since there are several white Challenge cars. | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member Username: Challenge Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jon, how'd your car make out? 30lbs of gravel anywhere doesn't sound so great. Glad you avoided a crash... | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 590 Registered: 8-2001 |
Dave, Same thing on my incident. No debris flag, no frantic waving of the yellow. I was off the track in the gravel but it was a straight shot so any other cars hitting the stuff would have gone straight off as well right into my car. Hell, the guy at the tower didn't even have a debris flag. He just held the yellow up (not waving, but standing) because I was off track. Not having a debris flag he should have waved the yellow furiously to indicate extreme caution even though technically you only do that if the incident is on the track. I got out of my car immeditaly and ran over near the edge of the braking zone and motioned people coming down the straight to go offline (further to the right). Then I got yelled at by the organizers for getting out of my car. I was a bit pissed. Two weeks earlier another driver in a Porsche Supercup car (different driver, different event) dumped all his oil in turn 3 and I nearly totalled my BMW CLub Racer. So obviously I was pissed when the same thing nearly happened on Monday. It's always the same folks that cause these problems. It's the folks who show up with their new toys, $100,000-$200,000 race cars, many Porsche GT3's or Trans Am cars that bring along their crew who usually look like the type that work at Autozone not Daytona or Sebring. The drivers of these cars of course couldn't find the oil dipstick or know the difference between a spark plug and a shower plug. The incident two weeks earlier, the driver had just taken delivery of the car from Europe three days prior. I told him tech inspection isn't something you do 5 minutes prior to going out at the track. I spent nearly 4 hours on Saturday going over my car and this was after someone else signed off my car on a tech inspection. I have done at least 50+ events in my Ferrari and BMW (both of which are race cars) and have never ever dumped oil, anti-freeze or water on any track. Not say it won't happen but when you have a race car you need to check everything with a fine tooth comb and most people treat them with the same attention of a street car. Solly: Matt is the best instuctor you will ever have at the Glen. Just listen to what he has to say and make sure you get a few rides with him. Sometimes it's hard to take everything in that you are being told when you are behind the wheel (especially a fast car like your 360 C). In my case I always seem to remember more of what an instructor tells me when I can see him/her doing themselves. The other thig to do is buy a good digital camcorder and get a mount to put it in your car. Most do this for entertainment purposes but it's a great learning tool. You see things on the tape later you don't realize you were doing on the track. Make sure you get some sort of adapter and a wide angle lense so you can see your hand movements on the wheel. Good luck and have fun. Will see verybody at the Glen hopefully in late August! Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 459 Registered: 6-2001 |
Martin- I know the engine was completely rebuilt last year, but no mention of any fire (or fire evidence) by the boys at Shelton, whom i trust. The car is not legal for the Challenge series having been a little too highly modified. it is supposed to be the fastest 360 Challenge around, although not with me as a driver. We'll see what happens at Watkins Glen. Jon-would have loved to do the Algar Ferrari event, but i'm lucky to get the 2 weekdays off in May. Business is nuts right now. Have fun there yourself. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1123 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yikes, Jon. Yeah, antifreeze. I was instructing at an HPDE this past weekend at Motorsport Ranch here in Texas. Driving my E36 M3 in the Instructor group, chasing down an older E30 M3 & a spec Miata through a connected series of very high speed left turns that, taken properly, are one big high-throttle arc leading to a fast straight. Spec Miata suddenly pulls off track left onto the grass & stops. E30 M3 wiggles, back end starts to come 'round, catches it. Too late for me. Surprise! ZERO grip at a zillion MPH turning left!! My car loops, I almost catch it, then it keeps sliding. No sound--no screeching or anything. So I get it rotated further so the rear end rolls off onto the grass backwards into the grass (rather than going sideways), at much diminished velocity. Thankfully, I was far enough from the other vehicles that I hit no one. As I came to a stop, a number of other cars spin; some catch it, some don't. STILL no yellow flags. Flagger runs to Miata with fire extinguisher, though. No fire. Finally, I drive (!!) to the nearest flag stand & tell the wanker that there is something on the track. Only then does he get his arse on the radio---after 7 vehicles have spun right in front of him---and they black flag the session. Turns out the Miata dumped his radiator right on the apex. The cars thet caught it were slightly off line (wide or narrow) and kept 2 wheels on dry pavement. What a scene! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 588 Registered: 8-2001 |
Martin, Must be the cars (Porsche's). I found out today that it was David Murray (former factory Porsche driver, multiple Lemans, Sebring, and Daytona racer) in the car. After the incident I wanted to find the driver and tell him he needed to learn how to drive that damn thing and tech it too. But I was too busy emptying my car of 30 pounds of gravel. Good thing too! I would have looked pretty stupid telling David Murray he needs to learn how to drive. He was at track with a bunch of Grand Am guys who hired him at $400 an hour to set up their Porsche Cup cars. Kind of stupid if you ask me. David can sure set the car up well, but in the end most of the folks there can't drive worth a damn anyway. What use is a car setup perfectly for a professional racer when it's then gpoing to be driven by some amatuer. Will try to get the video posted this weekend. You guys won't believe it. Literally inches away from t-boning a $150,000 car with my $100,000 car. That would have been one expensive day. MATT: Hurry up and save me from the dark side. Bubba spent 25 minutes trying to talk me into buying a truck. Said I would be at least 3 seconds per lap faster at Summit Point. Damn that would be 1:16 a lap. Right there with the GT1/Trans Am record and those suckers have 600+ hp. Did a high 1:20 today on those horrible Dunlops. Ordered some new PZero's for next week. I am going for a 1:18 and will have the video camera on to post it here. Same as you at the Glen, I am getting fed up listening to all these folks quote me lap times and then when you ask them to see the lap timer or the video tape they say...... uhhh! Battery was dead in the lap timer OR I ran out of tape on that last hot lap. Like we have talked about, when your out there on the track the bullsh*t stops. Jon | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4324 Registered: 5-2001 |
... and make sure to stay clear of Porsches, they tend to pi*s in the braking zones when they see superior cars approaching | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3271 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dr Steve Congrats - best of luck. Remember take it slow to get those tires warmed up | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4321 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nice car Solly, is that the car that had the engine fire in 2001 in Homestead? | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 457 Registered: 3-2001 |
Wow. Man, I'm glad to hear that it worked out for you and Bubba. Sorry to hear about the Porsche. Yeah, no room for braking issues there. You should have great weather today. Enjoy! Talk to you when you get back. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 586 Registered: 8-2001 |
Matt, I am with Trackmasters today and tomorrow. Almost totalled the 355 C and a Porsche GT3R. I was hounding him down the straight when he dumped anti-freeze at the 500 foot brake marker down the main straight. The minute I tapped the brakes I was sideways. Managed to keep the car from spinnning, locked up and went straight of in turn one into the gravel missing the rear of Porsche by inches. He ended up crashing in turn three on his own anti freeze. Sam was right behind me in his yellow truck and nearly creamed all three of us. All on video tape and will post soon. Will call you after I get back in town tomorrow. Wish you and Chris were here, no Ferrari's to play with. Cheers, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 (still in one piece) | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4396 Registered: 12-2000 |
Congrats! That's awesome. Challenge cars rock! We should have a complete FerrariChat.com race team. Everyone with a race, challenge, or anyone that tracks a bunch can take part. We can have a profile page with pictures. Oh geez Rob, just be quiet, you're already too busy the way it is. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2001 |
Yup Steven, you definetly have your hands full with that one. We'll take the slow and steady approach to the learning curve, and with a lot of seat time, you'll be throwing that around the track like a champ. See you at the Glen. | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2002 |
Steven, I agree, great looking car. and looks like your with a good team, the shelton boys will treat you right. Good luck and keep it safe, Best regards, Jim | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1400 Registered: 2-2001 |
Solly, congrats on the car! Looking good! Ernesto | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 585 Registered: 8-2001 |
Solly, Leave a few days early and you can do the Algar/Ferrari of Washington track event at Summit Point Monday the 21st and Tuesday the 22nd. If you are interested call Ferrari of Washington at (703) 478-3606 and ask for Redding. Five 25 minute run sessions both days. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 458 Registered: 6-2001 |
Coming up next week from Fla. just in time for the Glen. Also upped my life insurance policy. Matt Karson- I am definitely going to need some coaching here.   |