| Author | Message | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 272 Registered: 6-2002 |
"41k miles on my F50;so far so good." Awesome  PS: carbon print-through can be reduced by using larger weave cloth (the carbon takes a gentler slope) but the larger weaves are also harder to conform to curves. Many CF makers simply use the small weave because it's what's available, not what's nessicarily appropriate. Print-thru is no big deal really, though I personally shy away from repair of ANY composite (I vote for total replacement whenever at all possible.) some composites, even structual ones, can be repaired. Again, I don't like it, and wouldn't trust it. (structualy.) Best! Ben. | ||
| dheard (Stoli)
New member Username: Stoli Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2003 |
There is "print through" on my F50. I don't know whether that is "correct" as manufactured or the result of age. Structurally, everything is "so far so good". | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2329 Registered: 2-2001 |
I stay away from cars with CF tubs cus I'd hate to pay the cost of replacing the tub. I dont think you can repair the tub once its cracked unlike a steel tube as on the F40 or 512TR that is much easier to fix. On the + side the cost of composties has come down drastically since Aerospace started using composites back in the 1960s or so and will most likely continue to drop. Perhaps in another 20 years you will see ordinary cars with CF tubs if the price drops or if the cost of other materials rises. So in the future it could ba much less expensive to replace an F50 or Enzo tub, As long as you dont buy it from Ferrari!!!!!! | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 596 Registered: 3-2002 |
Chris, Print through on F40's occured from day 1. While I am not a person that is inclined to show his car in competition, I think a F40 or a F50 that has a perfectly smooth finish is not correct. The attraction for me on a F40 is being able to see the "weave". When a car is repainted, the body shop will usually use a high build primer, blocking, painting and putting a super smooth finish on by color sanding at the end. If you follow that process on a F40, for example, you have destroyed, in my opinion, an important character trait. So repairs or repaints almost have to be crude in order to maintain the integrity of the car. | ||
| Chris Coffing (Valence)
New member Username: Valence Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2003 |
Stoli, by so far, so good do you mean no print-through? Are you located in a southern region? Chris, good point about the repair issue - it could be a give-away. On the restoration issue, though, doesn't a good restoration take the car back to near-original condition? If so, and assuming print-through occurs over time and due to sun and heat exposure (which is not necessarily always the case by the way), wouldn't a nice, smooth new surface be desirable? I don't know the answer, and I assume that it hasn't been too much of an issue to date, but give these cars 30 years or so... | ||
| dheard (Stoli)
New member Username: Stoli Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2003 |
41k miles on my F50;so far so good. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 595 Registered: 3-2002 |
Chris, The effects of "print through" has a positive side, it is easy to tell if the car has had damage or been repainted. The thought of trying to conceal "print through" is not the issue, it is trying to keep it, is going to be the restoration nightmare! Excellent observations, thank you. | ||
| Chris Coffing (Valence)
New member Username: Valence Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2003 |
I think Ben pretty much hit the nail on the head. My company specializes in high performance composite structures, and I spent several years (while attending engineering school) researching composites, their failure modes, and their fatigue lives. Epoxy and, notably, Kevlar will degrade very quickly when exposed to sunlight. Most race cars I've worked on are 90% painted, but sometimes composite suspension links, wings, and cockpits (the other 10%) are left unfinished. If these unfinished parts are left outside for a long period of time - say a season or two of 10 3-day weekends - they probably will degrade significantly, and will eventually fail. If they are painted, clear-coated, or simply covered, their fatigue life typically exceeds that of practically any other material. Your F-50, with its painted bodywork and unexposed tub, should be fine. Resin technology evolves very quickly - much like computer technology - so again I agree with Ben - the modern epoxies are a lot more stable and durable than some of the potentially questionable older ones. All that said, I worked with a Lola/Porsche Grand Am team last year that would let bodywork sit upside-down, uncovered, in the sun. I told them that this was a bad thing to do, so they covered everything, but they were unaware of the damage potential before I pointed it out to them. How many other cars have been abused like this over the years? Regarding the fiber pattern on the surface of the F-50, this is called "print-through," and is caused by slight resin shrinkage near the surface of the bodywork. The reinforcing fibers don't shrink, and their pattern stays in place while the surronding resin receeds. This problem can be solved by any of a number of proprietary techniques, mostly involving the addition of thin or nonwoven surface fabrics and/or high-build primers. Adding just several mils of material between fiber and paint can dramatically reduce print-through. That's one of the reasons why gel coat is used on fiberglass parts - like all of those on your 348's and 355's. These parts are heavier, but they stay smooth looking. I don't know what they did with the Enzo - it may just be newer. Print-through becomes more pronounced with age. The only way to fix it after the fact is sand, fair, and repaint the panels in question - almost never a worthwile proposition unless the car has to be repainted anyway. | ||
| Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member Username: Rumordude Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2001 |
You can indeed see the "fibers" on the f50 over time unless it is waxed nicely. You will still see the webbing, but a good waxing will really make it look a lot nicer. | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2003 |
In comparing an Enzo to an F50 side by side, one thing that was clear was the difference in finish on both cars. You could see the carbon fiber texture through the paint on the F50 but the Enzo had the same look as metal (smooth with only paint texture). Was this the result of advancements at Ferrari or just a decision to finish the car differently from the F50? | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 268 Registered: 6-2002 |
Simple Carbon fiber composites (Carbon/Epoxy) are essentially spring-like below their yeild stregenth (if you don't bend it too far, it will never break.) The carbon fibers themselves will not degrade once sealed (they can turn brittle if they are exposed directly to air.) The Epoxy then is the only thing that could deteriorate, and any carbon part not built specifically with a grade of Epoxy that is UV-safe, should be painted or otherwise sealed (clearcoat acceptable, many asthetic carbon parts are clearcoated.) to preserve it's structure. If those simple steps are taken, a carbon part built with today's modern expoxy prepreg technology, will outlive us all. Not just 20-30 years, but 100+. Modern epoxy technology is *stable* and should not degrade in the forseable future. It may be the longest-lasting part on any car. It is all in the glue though, I don't know if I'd rely on some of the very earliest carbon parts (unless they were held to aerospace tollerances and documented when assembled. Failure modes can be acurately predicted.) Rust may never sleep, but carbon does not corrode (infact is is specifically used in some of the most corrosive environments imaginable!) Turely remarkable stuff, and lots of fun! Best! Ben. PS: I work with composites on a daily basis, we use Toryca products, one of the weaves we have is the same part # as used in the tail section of the Beoing 777. | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 202 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have no solid answers yet but this guy seem to be on the right track. http://www.infernolab.com/projectfiles/comp.html The link toward the bottom of the page titled "TECH DETAILS : Read more" leads to published research pdfs. | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
New member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2002 |
Also, the resin designs and methods for making carbon (carbon + kevlar weaves, graphite cloths, etc) have progressed rather well since the early 80s. I have been working with CF for many months developing new parts for the Dodge Viper, and I've come to truly respect these materials! Their service applications are expanding daily as new tech and lower costs make it more readily available. I will find the aerospace specs on the types of materials they use. James | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1002 Registered: 10-2002 |
Nothing last forever. In 30 years a well used Enzo will need a total restoration as did my P4. That said if you maintain and restore them they can last and run indefineatly. (My 1931 Duesenberg does). As Neil said:" Rust never sleeps..." Best Jim | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 510 Registered: 11-2002 |
The life is certainly more than just a few years. Though I have no data on torsional and bending strength of decades old carbon tubs, what I do know is for a road car, or vintage race car, tub life most likely will be many decades in carbon. Old Swift DB-4 Atlantic tubs made of S-glass do have delamination problems, but the later and last run of carbon tubs hold up fine for continued racing ten years later. I guarentee General Dynamics and Boeing have this lifing data on structural carbon, I bet it says greater than ten years, probably twenty, I've just not seen it. So, if an aircraft can do twenty, a road car should to what, forty, fifty, more? | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 593 Registered: 3-2002 |
David, excellent question. I am not sure what the complete answer is.......... The F40's body does little in the way of providing strength, it is simply an aerodynamic tool. You could drive a F40 with out its body attached as no major componets are dependent on the strength of the body. The F50 is another matter, the engine is a stressed member and intern bolts directly to the "tub" (no strucural "tub" in a F40). if the tub starts to delaminate or stress crack (and it will) it is not easily repaired and will eventually become unsafe. I think it is safe to say the F50 and the Enzo will have a limited practical life due to the nature of the materials that they rely on. What the life is, I am not sure anyone knows at this time. Chris | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2002 |
I went to the Long Beach Grand Prix this weekend. There were many exhibits in the aquarium for aftermarket car parts and motor sports memorabilia. Pi Electronics (makers of high end racing telemetry products) had a trailer with all their goodies on board. Outside of the Pi trailer was a 1999 I99 Reynard CART Chassis (The kind of car that brought Juan Montoya his first big league race wins and championship). One of the reps was kind enough to answer some questions I had about what happens to race cars from previous seasons. The '99 Reynard on display was about $700K when it was new (without an engine).The Pi guys picked up their display car for about $50K. We got on to the subject of vintage racing and the shelve life of a carbon fiber Champcar chassis. Turns out there are folks who buy slightly used Reynards and Lolas and drive them in exhibition races. He stressed that they do not run the cars at 10/10ths because of the long term effects exposure to sun light and oxygen has on carbon fiber. In a few short years it becomes quite brittle and weak. Not unlike an old comic book or news paper that�s been sitting in a driveway for a few days. Apertures holding suspension uprights and other components are known to break and crack under otherwise normal operating conditions. My question is about the road going Ferraris that use carbon fiber today. F40, F50, Enzo have foundations and exteriors that rely heavily on the use of this material. After 30 years of measured regular use, will an Enzo need to have its sub frame swapped for a new one? In 20 years will moisture, heat and UV rays cause the woven body panels of an F50 to be held together by nothing more than lacquer and paint? If needed, are F40 tubs still available from Ferrari? I�m not trying to scare anyone, just curious if anybody has had experience with aging carbon fiber. It would be shame to see the affects of oxidization force our current crop of dream cars into premature museum duty or incredibly expensive if not impossible restorations. |