| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1181 Registered: 10-2002 |
The Bronze wool is in. We're using it to make hidden mufflers inside the exhaust megaphones. The new FI seals we had made finally work, original NOS didn't. Final stiffners going in. Gap nose/cowl done. Old glue cleaned out of rivet countersinks. Fuel filler cups removed: note corrosion at rivet joint. Final prep. Painting starts Tuesday...        | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 196 Registered: 7-2002 |
James thank you, that is very generous. I'm sure there will be times when 'enjoy' will not be the word to spring to my lips!!! Mark | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark Very Exciting! I look forward to following your progress. If you need a shot of a detail let me know. All that matters is that you enjoy the process. Best Jim | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 195 Registered: 7-2002 |
James I will be doing a 'build diary' online, chassis is due to arrive in 5 to 6 weeks, will post the link on here, I'm sure it won't be as impressive as your original but as you said earlier there are only a few and none for sale (even if I had the odd $millions!) whole variety of engines are used from Rover (original Buick) to Renault V6, Chevy V8, Ferrari V12 and a Lambo V12 in Max Wakefield's car, , I guess the most popular is the Chevy as they're cheap and easy upgrade. Gearbox for most is the Porsche G60 or 6 speed from the Boxter I believe mine will be the first with a Ferrari V8/ Transaxle. The good news is (or not for the purists I guess) is that it will almost certainly be registered as a Ferrari 2 door Coupe as enough parts are coming from one. Getting it through the SVA is not too bad just a bit of a battle with officialdom, for the most part they check for sharp edges, emissions, noise and visibility | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1125 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark The Ultima is quite a fine bit of engineering. I saw one and was very impressed. If you do start to build a P4 replica please post pics. What engine and gear boxes do most of those cars use? Is it hard to make them street legal in the UK? In the US it's not too bad. You may want to touch base with the UK guys who build GT40 replicas as they probably have registered a good number of them. Check out Best http://www.gt40s.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi Jim | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2002 |
Arlie Lee Noble is quite famous in the UK 'replica' market and also continues to impress. As you rightly say he designed the P4 replica and then sold the business to Neil Foreman (NF Autos) he was also involved in the design and construction of Ultima sports racers and now runs Noble cars building the very impressive M12 Ultima pic at http://www.collinsclan.co.uk/Pages/Cars/VW020203/source/17.html Noble pic at http://www.collinsclan.co.uk/Pages/Trackdays/Imola/source/78.html | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1124 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie I think the "clone" with the Daytona engine is the one the guy from Wayne's serial # site thought I bought from Piper. The best and easiest to build replica's IMHO remain GT40 replica's. Best Jim | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1122 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie The RF replica based on the Noble replica is fine for what it is but it is IMHO a replica no where near a "clone" A Daytona engine is not a P4 engine. I could list many other details that are different but what's the point? There is only One no stories P4 existant 0856 owned by Lawrence Stroll and as far as I know it is not for sale. Mine you know about and the other 2 were converted into 350 Can Am's one of which was converted back into a P4 But 0856 remains the only original P4 left without stories or conversion so far as I know. Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1063 Registered: 5-2002 |
The "clone" P4 that I posted a link to did not appear to be your average kit car. It had a Ferrari engine; looked to also have a chassis made of round tubing; the wheels were said to be made from the original molds. Not exactly a Volkswagen conversion. For what it's worth, I did some searching and found some info on those clones. Apparently, an engineer for McClaren named Noble did the design work for those P4 replicas that bear his name. But he sold the operation to NF Auto in England who still produce the car. http://www.nfauto.co.uk/ They don't look too shabby considering the alternative is to never have one at all. The chassis sure looks professional enough. http://www.nfauto.co.uk/specification.htm | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1121 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark I'm aware of those they were OEM on Countash. Problem is OA diameter. These are 25 F 27R. Those are 23.5 OA diameter F&R. BestJim | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2002 |
James you will have had an e-mail from me, I think I've found some 345/35 x 15 rears and 225/50 x 15 fronts all ZR rated, I'll get availability confirmation tomorrow so will let you know! ps both give a 4.25" sidewall height dependent on rim size | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1120 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark Sadly the choice in 15 inch road tires is very limited, esp in wide sizes. Most supercars run on 17,18,or19 inch wheels for which there are tires. Before 1967 cars were fitted with tires like this (Cobras came with Goodyear Sports Car Specials as did road legal GT40ies)For cars produced after that date it is a real problem. | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2002 |
James What I was trying to establish is whether you've found any street legal tires to use as the cut slicks won't be, well wouldn't be in the UK, and in your pics I can see the std Avon print on the tirewall stating 'not for highway use' regards Mark | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3731 Registered: 8-2002 |
That so rocks. Your coolness must be genetic... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1119 Registered: 10-2002 |
Des My daughter even more so than my son has taken a very actice interest in my cars. She loves cars and really studies them and their engineering. She's been with me to visit the P4 in Indy and gave an oral report in 7th grade on Lambo's (A product of Italy) Best Jim | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3729 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mr. G., those pictures are awesome... You said your daughter cried when you sold your Testarossa; does she take an active interest in your other cars...? The restoration, the history behind them, etc...? When she was younger, did you ever pull up in her school's parking lot in # 23, for show and tell...? "Sorry, class, we will no longer be having show and tell - Mr. Glickenhaus' daughter ruined it for the rest of us when she convinced her father to bring his P4; no one could ever top a vintage, Le Mans-winning racecar..." or "i'm sorry, little Timmy, but we just don't care about your little frog - we want to see the racecar...! Now move, before i put you in time out; you're blocking my view. LOL, that would be cool. Parents with cool cars rock.  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1118 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark The tires with the tread are the ones Roger Kraus acing hand cut for me. They are Avon Historics\. www.rogerkrausracing.com | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 190 Registered: 7-2002 |
James Nice pics again, one question on the tires are the ones shown the slicks you had hand cut? assuming they are what plans do you have for a road tire? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1116 Registered: 10-2002 |
One Fine Day...        | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 527 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, Interesting pictures though it takes some phantasy to see it should become a P4 right now! When do you think your project is finished or near completion? Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1113 Registered: 10-2002 |
More Photos      | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1112 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne I believe your lower photo is 0846 as a P3 before it was converted to a P4 by Ferrari. It's interesting that that looks like the nose now on 0844 albeit streatched open as per the discription of the pit lane modification done at the TF. This would also tie in to Piper winding up with this nose. Arlie Clone? Mais Non. Meanwhile here are some more pics. Note how John is repairing corrosion damage to roll hoop by correctly blending in new section by hammering alum. to form it rather than using a wheel to roll form. Also note correct weather strippping on drip rail, more original period welds, and only one thin layer of alum panel between fuel and anything. Unlike original I'm using Kevlar ATL cells rather than original rubber ones. Hopefully the judges won't notice...      More photos to follow. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1062 Registered: 5-2002 |
Not to interupt the flow of P4 discussion, but I found a link to a nice P4 clone/replica. http://www.carclassic.com/html/DE42.htm Food for thought. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1536 Registered: 8-2002 |
Okay Jim, what do you think of this? Compare the nose openings in these two pics:   | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1110 Registered: 10-2002 |
Pete I think this was more of a pit lane attempt to keep the car from boiling over on a very hot day in Southern Italy at the Targo Floria. The car DNF'ed and as far as I know the factory never used that nose again. I'm guessing it wound up with the factory spares that Piper aquired from Enzo Ferrari at the time he aquired the remains that became the car I now own. I think the guys who used that nose to reconvert 0844 IMHO should have restored the nose to the proper configuration. IMHO they made a mistake. When compeditors saw the Chapparal winged Can Am Cars for the first time many felt like throwing up. Jack Enzo Ferrari gave David Piper a complete set of P4 blueprints. David showed them to me. They are quite special and priceless. David told me he promised Mr. Ferrari never to sell them. As Wayne has pointed out Barchetta sometimes get's it wrong. I think Mark Ketchum has proven they got P5 wrong. Best Jim | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm, Interesting. Far from me to question Ferraris knowledge or lack of knowledge or aerodynamics, but from what I have read to increase air flow through an opening like a radiator duct you increase the size of the EXIT not the entry. Witness how F1 cars have their EXITS changed to suit different tracks. Notice also how Colin Chapman's Lotus's (Loti ?) have such small air inlets (ie. Elan, etc.). Thus is this proof (ie. increasing the radiator opening to increase cooling) that Ferrari really did not understand aerodynamics as Ford (Carrol Shelby and others) suggested with the comparison with their GT40. I am no expert but have read that if you can get the air out the air will find it's way in ... Pete | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 266 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jim, that is correct, the photo is of the P4 when it was presented to the press in the UK. Did you see the photos on barchetta.cc of # 0846? http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0846.330P3.htm Are you familiar with the blueprint drawing below? It says it is the 1966 Le Mans version. I have a copy which measures some 62 x 34 inches (scale ca. 1/5).  Wayne, I have some more PF drawings (modern copies though) if you need to spice up your book although you might already have them). Jack | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1108 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne I think they got the TF DNF nose from Piper (The Christies catologue says they got the P3 coupe body from Piper in 99 which Symbolic used to reconvert 0844 back to a coupe from it's Can Am configuration. (I saw 0844 in it's Can Am configuration at Goodwood in 98 and Barchetta has it that way at Monteray) I also think for some bizzare reason no one bothered to question the shape of the nose they got from Piper. In your Daytona and LeMans pics you can also see their TF nose is missing either the single center upper nose inlet duct or the dual upper ducts. This is esp. clear in your LeMans shot. Jack That is a P4 note the curved FI Trumpets and the extra header loop they tried for a while on the P4. Pete The engine in my P4 is different from the P3's. It has Lucas Mechanical FI instead of Webbers, different heads, and a Ferrari 5 speed. Originally the P3's had ZF's. This is really a 412P. Ferrari trans. but Webbers. Ferrari always kept something extra for the Factory cars ie the FI. Jens If you search and read all the P4 posts you'll get somemore information but I now believe that my chassis is the repaired remains of P4 0846. The engine, transmition suspention, etc., etc. is defineatly Factory P4 | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1535 Registered: 8-2002 |
"Maybe the remains of that nose wound up with Piper and he sold it to Symbolic." Possible, but even if that's true and, assuming it was 0844 that wore the modified nose in the first place, it DNF'd its only appearance in the TF (1966), so why restore a car to a modified state that only represents one race with a poor outcome? It would seem more likely that the car would be restored to its earliest appearance in 1966 when it took 1st OA at both Monza and Spa or possibly to its appearance as the 3rd car in the famous 1-2-3 finish at Daytona in 1967 ("squashed nose"). Here are some shots I found of 0844 in 1967. Even in the Le Mans shot, the nose looks less open than in the recent pics of the car at Spa. Daytona 1967:  Le Mans 1967:  | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 517 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, I saw this P3 at Spa on saturday and sunday and even had a closer look at it when parked in the pits. It really has an awesome engine sound and was always amongst the three fastest cars when running in the Ferrari/Maserati historic challenge. A truly magnificient car! Sorry to ask as you already have answered somewhere before but what is your project about? Is the chassis of your car a real Ferrari P4 or are you doing a complete reconstruction/replica with a whole new chassis and engine? Finally in which colour do you want to paint the car? Have seen the P3/P4 in red and yellow at some events already but think red looks best with it. Wish you the best result for the project! Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 223 Registered: 4-2003 |
JIm, hope this helps a bit with your car although it it not a picture of the nose, it does give a nice "insight". It is a vintage shot taken at the premises of Maranello Conc. UK. The back shows a number of notes so this photo has PROBABLY been published in a magazine at the time. Jack   | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, Notice in Waynes photos the bare alloy behind the front wheels and in front of the engine, etc. regarding our previous discussion about inner panel finish. The engine is completely different to your P4 (or is it just the airbox?), is this because the car in Waynes photos is a P3 or something? Pete | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1107 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne The period photo's I found show the "Unsquashed" opening plus a single center upper nose vent which the SPA days car is also missing. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1106 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne The body I'm fitting which Piper claimed is NOS has the "Daytona" or as you noted period opening. The coupe has 2 upper inlet openings which mate to cockpit air vents, the spyder had one central upper inlet as per post Daytona 0846 photo but 9000 has 2 upper openings, as does artist's poster painting. I suspect as 0846 began as a P3 at Daytona even though it had been converted to a P4 the nose was P3 at that time. The rear was widened, wheelbase changed, P4 motor and trans etc. but nose and cockpit ducting wasn't changed over untill later. (When 0846 ran at LeMans). I still can't figure out "unsquashed" P3 nose. I do remember reading somewhere one nose was opened up like that for a P3 at the Targo Floria as it was overheating but it snagged the ground as was disgarded. Maybe the remains of that nose wound up with Piper and he sold it to Symbolic. I still think it's too streatched and kills ground clearance. Strange no? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1533 Registered: 8-2002 |
By the way, here are some more shots of 0844 at Spa: http://www.mondo-rosso.com/gallery/images/spa2003/007.html http://www.mondo-rosso.com/gallery/images/spa2003/006.html It would be interesting to compare photos of the car now with period photos of the car in its original configuration. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1532 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, the link was working the first time I tried it. Anyway, I'm sitting here at work flipping back and forth between Web pages comparing shots of P3s/P4s/412Ps and this is what I think I see: 1. In the period photos, the nose intakes seem more "squashed" (nice technical term, huh?) with less curvature on the bottom as well as a lower upper edge. 2. The modern photos are all more like the one of 0844 that you posted a link to. It's also possible that the shodow that is blacking out all of the area around the opening except for the very edge is causing it to appear more rounded. Check out this image of 0850 for comparison where you can see more of the sheetmetal surrounding the opening: http://www.barchetta.cc/Common/Images/SN/0850/XLarge/412P.0850.010.jpg Then, again, maybe you're right. Either way, I think that most of these cars have been rebodied using each other as reference points enough times that they probably all look slightly different now than they did originally. It's really a shame. I assume you guys are using the post-Daytona photo to determine the shape of the opening on your car? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1103 Registered: 10-2002 |
Check out nose inlet (Third photo from bottom). Whats up with that shape? I can't find any picture of a P3 or P4 where it looks right. It looks too bent/curved down on the bottom. This is the P3 that symbolic converted from a NART Can Am using a David Piper body. What do you think? Best Jim Europe section- Ferrari SPA days... (Sorry link copy isn't working) |