Challenge cars in Vintage Racing Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

FerrariChat.com » General Ferrari Discussion Archives » Archive through May 05, 2003 » Challenge cars in Vintage Racing « Previous Next »

Author Message
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 5:46 pm:   

Sorry, please use my backup email address:

moorespeed@earthlink.net

our server is being upgraded today.
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 5:25 pm:   

Could all of you guys seriously interested in this new series, email me with your contact info? My email address is david@moorespeed.com

The door is open for us to participate. I intend to do what I can to make it happen.

Thanks

David
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 5:23 pm:   

"Dave M, I know this is a bit off topic, but there is a Norwood P4 being auctioned in Houston at the RM Auction on May 16-18."

Hey Paul...Looks like the one we built (when I was with Bob) for Bill Gordon. That's the same one as the 8' long photo I have in my front showroom here at the shop.

I had the pleasure to drive that car quite a bit. The first time was at Road America in the Chicago Historics in 89 and again for Speed & Beauty TV shoot at Ennis Drag. I think it did an 11 flat in the 1/4. At Road America, it rocked in Group 7...? cob webs.

That's a cool car to go vintage racing in!!! I beleive that engine was either a 365 or 400 with huge cams, killer heads, with programable Haltech Fuel Injection.

Unfortunately the guy who built the handmade aluminum bodies for those P4s, Raymond Chauvenez (spelling sorry Raymond), passed away with Cancer a few years back. HE was a true craftsman of the old school. Amazing work.

I can still remember vividly, how that open headered, V12 sounded going down Thunder Valley....it hooked me forever ;-)

D
Paul Cox (Paulc)
New member
Username: Paulc

Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 4:38 pm:   

Dave M, I know this is a bit off topic, but there is a Norwood P4 being auctioned in Houston at the RM Auction on May 16-18.

Upload
David Stone (Stone)
New member
Username: Stone

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 4:23 pm:   

Hello, My name is David Stone. I am President of Kelly-Moss Motorsports and have started a new racing series sanctioned by HSR called the USA GT Championship. It was founded on the Porsche model race cars. Four classes, run together but scored separately. Recently we have been approached by several Ferrari Challenge car owners with an interest in combining the Ferrari's with the Porsche's. While we don't think there is enough data out there to have a formula to have them compete fairly against each other, we can see the possibility for including the Ferrari's in the USA GT series and score them separately from the Porsche's. We think the flavor of Porsche's and Ferrari's on the track together would be great and we are open to discussions on this subject. Maybe after a season if there was an interest by both groups, we would have enough data to conceive a formula for fair competition between the two marks. This is brainstorming at this point, but I think there is great potential for this concept. The original spirit of the USA GT series was to create a race venue that fell between Club racing and Pro racing with the good of the racer in mind. You can learn more about the USA GT as it is now at www.usagt.net. Our website is not much yet but we be getting a complete rebuild in the near future. There are seven races left in this years schedule at some really great tracks. If you e-mail me I can send you the schedule or you can see it at the website. Please feel free to contact me with you thoughts or questions either by e-mail at stone@attglobal.net or by phone 608-345-6321.

Best regards to you all,

David Stone
USA GT Series
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:14 pm:   

Ok guys. Just got off the phone with David Stone who is heading up the USAGT series in HSR (it also runs a few races with SVRA). Dave says bring it on. So, I'll be trying to come up with a few ideas on how we handle the initial investment into the series to secure the Challenge cars within USAGT. I'll be back soon and expect a welcome note from Dave Stone to follow.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 4702
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 10:49 am:   

From my experience racing NASA and SCCA, the max number of groups you can run in a day is 7 or maybe 8 if you really push it. How you break those groups up is the challenge of the organizer. It's hard to fit that many various cars into only 7 groups.
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c

Post Number: 617
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 10:47 am:   

Mitchel,

While I agree with your emphasis on safety running but with faster cars is an unavoidable part of racing. I run a Spec Racer in SCCA and sometimes we are classed with cars that have twice the horsepower.

On practice days we run some sessions with Toyota Atlantics and Formula Contintentals which run nearly 15 seconds a lap quicker at most tracks.

In GT1 class you have 700 hp Trans Am cars running with 200 hp Production ITE cars. Speeds down the straight can vary by 40 mph.

If there are enough cars to run seperate groups then ideally this would be the thing to do but in most forms of amateur racing there are never enough cars to make one specific class and this is even harder to do in vintage racing.

Racing is dangerous and takes immense levels of concentration and what racers call "situational awareness". There is absolutely no comparison to track days and racing. Track days are fun and you can run hard and fast if you choose but the courtesy and politeness that you see (point by's, lifting, etc..) don't exist in racing.

Then there is the ego thing combined with a lot of money. While vintage racing has the no contact rule some people totally forget this when the Red Mist sets in.

The laid back atmosphere on the track during an FCA track day doesn't exist in racing. While ideally I like to race without looking in my mirrors every 2 1/2 seconds for some car that has twice the horsepower, reality is that most classes will be combined and you need to be able to deal with much faster traffic.

A Skip Barber Three Days school is a good starting point but it in no way teaches you or prepared you to go racing in vintage with a 355 C or any other Challenge car that may be lumped in a class with IMSA GTP cars.

Go out and race SCCA in a cost effective slow class like Spec Miata, Spec RX7 or Spec Racer Ford.

I see a lot of folks show up with a three day school under their belt in PCA or Vintage with a Porsche Super Cup Car or some crazy thing like a 962.

Not only are they slow as molasses but they are a danger to others.

We were trying to organize a 355/348 Challenge race at Lime Rock in a few months to coincide with the 360 Challenge race there. There was much arguing about what constituted a race license and what should be accepted. Some wanted a minimum Grand Am license, others wanted a SCCA license, some wanted just a basic three day school certificate. As stated a three day certificate doesn't prepare you to race and a Grand Am license is a complete joke. If you ca fill out a medical form and show a certificate from a race school you can go run an LMP car no questions asked. There was no way I was going to risk my car unless everyone was properly licensed. Looks like it will be just a parade lap at the 360 Challenge weekend.

Most racing series (aparently not Grand Am) grant you a racing license only when the people you will race with, feel comfortable being on the track with you and they are the ones in most race series that judge your competance unless you already posses a race license.

Bottom line is that if you think you can't handle being in traffic with faster cars racing is probably not your ticket.

Just look at all the carnage at a Challenge race. Half the field have no clue about "situational awareness".

Regards,

Jon
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member
Username: 4re308

Post Number: 839
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 10:17 am:   

While I was at the Mitty this past weekend, I noticed the lack of Ferraris in the races. There used to be a TON of old Ferrai race cars in the Mitty. There were none this year. I did see a handful of spectators that brought Ferraris, I saw a red Mondial Cab, a red 328 GTS, my car, a gorgeous Boxer in blue and Stephan's fantastically perfect 348!

One problem with HSR and SVRA racing is the grouping. I was talking with some drivers last weekend, some of them left the event because they were mismatched with other much faster cars. Imagine running a Formula Ford or a Chevron B21 with a 91 Lotus/Camel F1 car and a Klein Tools CART car?? Not me. I witnessed some amazing variations in the closing speeds of the cars, and I thought it was unsafe for the drivers of the slower cars. I can imagine the only thing they could concentrate on was trying to stay out of the way. My point is this, if we keep the Challenge cars and Porsches in the same group, that is fine. But we cannot let them inter-mingle with the older cars. Keep the groups separate, even if it means a lot of groups. Safety first.

David, I would like to help any way I can to bring any and ALL Ferrari race cars to racetracks near the enthusiasts. Let me know what happens!
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 4699
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 9:37 am:   

Byron, not to speak for David, but you would be required to have a competitive license like a SCCA Club Racing license. A 3 day Skip Barber school qualifies you for that.

I'm sure it would be a multi race series piggy backing with the current vintage schedule. Qualifying in morning and race in the afternoon. Like he said, until the class got big enough we would be racing with other classes.
Byron (Bmyth)
Member
Username: Bmyth

Post Number: 601
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 4:46 am:   

David, I have a retired 348CH (now street-driven) that I would love to bring back out to the track... Count me in!!

"Those with 348's seem to be few and far between at FCA events."

Jon - I'll try to be the exception to those that don't bring them out... :-)

What would a driver need to do to qualify for this series? Would it be individual "exhibition-type" vintage races or a whole circuit?
Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member
Username: Solly

Post Number: 464
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:37 pm:   

I would be interested, but only after geting used to the 360 C I just bought. Hopefully be ready by the end of the summer. keep this thread alive.

Steve Solomon
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c

Post Number: 615
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:19 pm:   

Dennis,

Only the 996 Cup cars are problematic for a 355 C. I have never had any problem with 993 Cup cars and some were driven by experienced PCA racers. You may remember there was a 993 Super Cup car at the Glen last fall with a very experienced racer and he was doing 2:06's-2:09 which is about what the fast guys like Matt K. run there in a 355 C at the Glen.

The 996 Cup cars are indeed faster but few are driven correctly (the same I am sure can be said about F cars). The GT3 R's and RS's are a whole different league if driven correctly and will dust any Challenge car 355 or 360.

I was recently at Summit Point and a half dozen or so 996 Cup cars were present. None were any faster than I was except when David Murray drove them... of course he peeled the paint off my car but he is a professional.

David: You're idea would be great and I would certainly be interested if I still have my 355 C at that point. I assume a SCCA National/Pro license would transfer to your series?

One thing to consider, while your idea is great it's my impression from the 20+ FCA events I have done over the past few years that only about 20% of Challenge car owners really push their cars at a pace that would equal what you guys run in the vintage series. There are a few on this board who own either 360 C's or 355 C's and run them hard but the majority of folks don't push these cars very hard.

Most are moving chicanes. At a recent Ferrari dealer event at Summit Point this past week we had maybe 10+ Challenge cars (355's and 360's). Of those 10+ cars only three of us were running lap times that would be consistent with race times in T1 or the Challenge series and all three of us race in either the SCCA (w/something else) or the Challenge Series. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who now run these cars have little intention of ever racing them or running them at a competitive pace at a FCA track events.

I will say that it's my experience that the fastest Challenge owners seem to run 355's. Those with 348's seem to be few and far between at FCA events. The ratio of 348's to 355's seem to be about 2:1. The 360's are more prevelant but in terms of lap times they are driven slow most of the time.

In my 25+ events at Summit Point and 6+ events at the Glen I have never found anyone driving one of these (360 C) very fast until this past week when I ran with a fellow F-Chat member who just purchased his 360 C and has a ton of open wheel race experience.

Certainly your idea has me interested and I can think of maybe a half dozen on this board who have 355 C's who might be interested in racing but I am not sure if you will be able to round up enough of them for each event to run a Challenge specific class.

Maybe a Challenge/GT3 combination might work best, though as Dennis pointed out and P car with an R or RS attached to it will dust a 355 C if driven right.

Good Luck and keep us informed!

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23

David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 12:48 pm:   

"As for racing with Porsches... wouldn't the Ferraris have a tough time with the Porsches?"

That's very true. Even more of a reason to see if we can't get enough interest to form a Run Group with multiple classes just for F-challenge cars or the like.

One tough thing to deal with, there is only "X" amount of track time during the weekend at most all vintage venues. Right now, a run group consists of multiple classes of multiple car makes. Some classes obviously are faster than others, so not everyone can go for the overall win. For instance this past weekend, I won my class in C14 in a normally aspirated old RSR, but drove my tail off to get on the "Overall" podium beating cars technically much faster than me like turbocharged 935s and TransAm cars. On the same hand, there were cars I lapped more than once in the hour enduro, that were in class battles themselves.

I think if we take one step at a time, the challenge cars will eventually be a class and run by themselves. For us to do that right off the bat, would require a "Series Sponsor" to "Guarantee" the field by paying entry fees (see typical per car: http://www.hsrrace.com/03_atlanta/entry.pdf ) for a decent size field for the year in advance. So, we're looking at an initial investment of $50+K then all the advertising cost. Really not bad when you think about it as all other costs putting on the events would be covered under the HSR banner (i.e. Insurance, track rental, administration, etc. etc)
Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member
Username: Bighead

Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 12:05 pm:   

David, great news. Hope you get this going! It'd be great to see a place to exercise old Ferrari Challenge cars -- hopefully, without the bumper car mentality of the actual Ferrari Challenge.

As for racing with Porsches... wouldn't the Ferraris have a tough time with the Porsches? Certainly the 355CH is going to be problematic - the 993 Cup cars are very fast. The 996 Cup cars are much faster, and the GT3R and RS are real real race cars (the RS is $$$$$). The 360 Challenge might run well against the 993 based cars, but unless you're running a 360 GT, you'll have problems with the 996 race cars....

vty,

--Dennis
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx

Post Number: 2443
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:57 am:   

David, just so you know I'm for real, heres a link to what my 512TR looked like back around January

http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/206829.html?1045710774
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx

Post Number: 2442
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:53 am:   

I'm definately looking for a fun series to race in. I usualyy spend the summers racing in the Northeast & the rest of the year I am near Miami.

My 512TR is almost finished, cant wait, I feel like a kid at Christmas :-)
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:20 am:   

"I would be interested in vintage as well, altho my car, '00 360C, may be too new?"

The new USAGT series, currently has 4 classes, all Porsche. Class 1 is for 993 Cup cars, Class 2 is for 993RSR, Class 3 is for 996 Cup cars and Class 4 is for GT3R/RS. These cars are from 1995 through 2003.

Thus, I would think forming Ferrari specific classes to run within this group, or separate with enough interest, would cover up to current models.

As far as the TR goes, I just don't know.

David

Alright, I've got to get back in the workshop and work on race cars. However, you can reach me directly via a number of ways: http://www.moorespeed.com/contact/index.html
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 9:54 am:   

I agree. I too think we would certainly want rules "period specific" Right now, there is a class called "Historic IMSA GT" which goes up to 1992. You can't do things now that were not legal when they raced the cars in the day. Idea is to run them just as they left the track.

Let's see how many people respond to this thread before I go back to the organizers. I need some real ammunition, i.e. show HSR that there really is an opportunity to add some high quality racing. We need to show that we are committed to filling a field for the year and can at least start off with 10 cars to even form the class within the USAGT or maybe, if we get enough cars, we could have our own race group.

So, please, pass the word. I will commit my resources to the project.

My racing career started years ago when I left building Hi-rises to build replica 330P4's and GTOs at Norwoods. Back then F-cars were on the track everywhere. Frankly, it's disappointing to see the lack of F-cars in vintage racing now. Maybe we could change this for the better.
will h (Willh)
New member
Username: Willh

Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 9:44 am:   

I would be interested in vintage as well, altho my car, '00 360C, may be too new? No contact rules are important to me, as otherwise I might as well race in SCCA. I have friends who've raced WC and for the cost I feel I might as well run in the Challenge series. There are a lot of semi pro series these days, witness the new SCCA series for sports racers (the old ACRL), but none that I've found offers the kind of venue I'd like for the 360. It would be great to have something in addition to Club and dealership track days.
David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Junior Member
Username: Racerdj

Post Number: 114
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 9:40 am:   

From past experience running my Formula Atlantic 1977 March in SVRA, HSR and VSCDA, vintage racing offers you a great venue to race. The Mitty at Atlanta is one of the best races of the year behind Chicago Historics. HSR is a very good organizer and their events ran smoothly.
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx

Post Number: 2432
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 9:34 am:   

Can I come play with my 92 512TR race car ? :-)
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 559
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 9:17 am:   

Sounds just like what many owners of "old" 348 and F355 Challnege cars are looking for!

Like you said about modifications, it would be nice to have a way of keeping the preparation to period specific rules, i.e. a 1994 348 Challnege must prepare to the last year the 348 was allowed in Challenge, 1995.
David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member
Username: Speedmoore

Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 11:09 pm:   

I started this post in the Texas chat area, but Rob Lay thought it would be better suited in this area:

The first post read:

This past weekend, at the Walter Mitty Vintage races at Road Atlanta, I discussed bringing Ferrari Challenge cars to HSR (Historic Sports Car Racing) with their competition director as a few of you have expressed interest in doing so.

The response was YES. In fact he suggested the newly formed USAGT series for Cup/RSR/GT3R Porsches might be the ideal place and have classes for ALL the challenge cars as well as setup a Classic Porsche vs. Ferrari dual.

So, I've got their ear. Now I want yours. How do you feel about this and are any of you guys with Challenge cars interested to do some more "Semi-professional" racing in conjunction with HSR and SVRA? Please contact me via this forum or PM me david@moorespeed.com

This could be just what we need to see Ferrari cars running in the vintage race weekends again. This past weekend, I saw no fewer than 20 Ferrari cars of all types at the track. However, they were daily drivers and their owners were racing NASCARS, GTP, INDY, F1, Can-Am etc. Would be nice to see Ferrari owners racing Ferrari cars.

Off my soap box for now ;-)

From Rob Lay, 2nd post read:

I would be very interested in this. I will race SCCA T1 if I can't find anything else, but I wouldn't mind a tad tighter rules on contact. Would this USAGT series have similar strict contact rules as vintage racing?

Otherwise the only real place for us is WC, which is a little closer to professional than "semi". Much more money too as you know David.

3rd & 4th posts from David Moore read:

The races are sanctioned by HSR or SVRA and run by their rules. Contact is a no no as is overly agressive driving.

The rules are enforced to not only protect the cars (which some are worth 7 figures) but also the drivers.

But let me tell you from first hand experience, the racing has a full spectrum of drivers with cruisers at the back of the pack to intense guys like me up front. But, respect for safety and each others machinery is paramount.

The series just started and is low on cars. Bringing Ferrari into the series could be just what the doctor ordered.

If there is enough interest, I will pursue this full tilt with the organizers. My company would also help sponsor the races too as we have already pledged to do so. They currently have Dunlop and a few others (can't remember) as sponsors and are trying for others like BBS, etc as well as a TV package.

This series is very raw, so the potential for us to be on the ground floor and make it happen is very real.

The rules are also written to keep costs for being competitive down. I.E. you can't just go wild throwing turbos and F1 stuff on like in a "Run what ya Brung" series. I clearly understand what you mean when you consider what it costs to run in WC, been there done that, it ain't cheap. Our championship run in 99 before the factories showed up in WC was well over $500k. When the factories (Audi, BMW) showed up, budgets doubled. Hence, why you don't see us in WC these days.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration