| Author |
Message |
Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
New member
Username: Drtax
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 9:20 pm: | |
As the new owner of a 1998-550, I have carefully followed the thread about Dave's problem with his 550, and FOH is supposed to have double checked for the problems mentioned in Dave's thread. But I do have two questions:
1. What is the story on the coolant hose? According to FOH, the factory used some hose clamps that were too large and over time would heat the hoses and cause leaks. This fix has already been done on my 550. Does this take care of the coolant issue or is this a separate issue?
2. To get the Ferrari powertrain warranty, the car has to go through an in-depth inspection and do the 30k timing belt replacement if the car is over three years old. I had the inspection done and everything came up groovy. But I decided to pass on the 30k service and timing belt replacement (the car has 10.6 miles) because basically all the powertrain warranty covers is, you guessed it, the timing belts (sic). Did I do the right thing? The 30k - timing belt service is about $5k and the warranty is another $2k or so.
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Gordon Monsen (Gmonsen)
New member
Username: Gmonsen
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 5:02 pm: | |
I had a 1994 512 TR and drove it a lot as a summertime daily driver. Really had no problems of any sort. Just changed the oil. I was kind of hoping that the 550 might be even more "daily driver friendly". The 512 was the only Ferrari I've had, though I think I'm fairly knowledgeable about them and know that they historically have been toys. I thought that the new management had really worked to improve reliability. No? |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 9:03 pm: | |
Hmmm,
We have now two opposing threads  , this one that complains about the maintenance free-ness of his Ferrari (before he has given FNA a chance to reply ... or though it turned out to be a good add for FNA) and then another (http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/242046.html?1052099764) which is complaining that the 308QV does not have enough power ... and why did Ferrari limit it.
Gee poor Ferrari, cannot please everybody ... maybe they should just make track cars?
Pete |
Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member
Username: Bob_cowart
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
Based on all the available data it looks like BMW had to replace engines on less than 1% of their M cars; however that would translate to roughly 10% of the "suspect" cars which were built during oct.nov.dec. of '01. If you take away the contaminated cars it is obviously insignificant.
The bigger question though is what do companies do when there is a problem. Do they bandaid the problem, solve the problem, placate the customer? Are they flexible in the decision making... It sounds like from recent posts that Ferrari has stepped up to the plate. |
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member
Username: Fuiszt
Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 4:00 pm: | |
I was just wondering if in fact BMW has had to replace more engines in the last 2 years than Ferrari has. Though the ancilary stuff on ferraris is never been hardy, the engine/trans etc is generally supposed to be tough-especially when you consider how most people drive them.
James, I would expect Ferrari to do a little extra for someone like you, and sounds like they did a little extra for Dave too. I guess it comes down to someones judgement about whether or not to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. And if Dave's waterpump starts weeping again at 50K miles and he needs new shocks and AC work no one would be surprised. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:30 pm: | |
Dave...
not pickin on ya man...and I do agree with your gripes and empathize with owners on issues that should never exist in the first place..."however"...Pete did explain "reality" fairly well. And "I" happen to be a Ferrari customer myself for 30 years...and not much has changed in all that time...parts that prematurely fail, exhorbadant prices, back orders, and all the rest of the baloney, I can't count the number of times I've been a Ferrari appologist over the years...but,..it's called the "PRICE" of being COOL...or COOLER...or THE COOLEST...and the simple facts are..Ferraris are Ferraris...they'll pick you up and slam you down...it's just part of the game.
We either accept the rules of the game or we opt out...but we really can't expect the rules to change after we have begun playing.... |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 1400
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
OK, jrv, did you forget your Lithium drip this morning?
 |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
>>>Dave I completely understand your frustration but Tony does have one small good point. That is you bought an Italian made Ferrari. Ferraris or any Italian car have NEVER EVER had a respectable reputation for reliability,<<
NO KIDDING...what the heck was he thinking? is he smoking funny ciggy's ? LOL
>>>Ferrari make performance cars not reliable cars.<<
I thought this was a given after 50 years...you'd think guys that are smart enough to afford one would catch on by now!
>> expect the usual flames from Ferrari owners, but you have to be mis-informed if you bought your Ferrari expecting Porsche or Toyota type reliability and maintenance free-ness. <<
You think maybe it's wanting to play, but not wanting to pay??
The only free lunch is dished up at the Salvation Army!
;-)
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DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 3836
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 5:01 pm: | |
When you did those things, did you mention your name...? |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
Tony
As a matter of fact yes. Ferrari replaced the engine in my 308 (High oil consumption) under warrantee. They also rebuilt the engine in my TR under warrantee. (Timing belt failure) They also repainted the entire car under warrantee (308) Over 32 years they've replaced and repaired anything that I felt was reasonable whether it was still technically under warrantee or not. If you are reasonable, have a good relationship with your dealer, talk to them about it as Dave learned they are MORE than reasonable.
Best
Jim |
Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member
Username: Bob_cowart
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
Correct, and if I have to tow my car to the dealer on a flat bed, I want to know that
1) the problem is covered under warranty and
2) the root of the problem has been properly addressed so as not to occur again. |
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member
Username: Fuiszt
Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 2:16 pm: | |
I'm not aware of Ferrari not replacing engines that fail during the first 2 years. Has anyone had an engine fail on this board in a nearly new car? I love the M3, especially the 300+ bhp one, and I have been happy with the three BMWs I've owned so far (and my wife likes them even more so there will be more in the future). Its mentioned as an example of failures that can occur in high performance cars. I'd rather have a bad AC, leaky shocks and a drippy water pump and drive into my 15K service than ride in on a flatbed after having a rod go through the block. BMW's extension of the powertrain guarantee is no more than they would have to do if the car was sitting on their certified pre-owned lot. |
Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member
Username: Bob_cowart
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 1:05 pm: | |
Tony,
I own a '02 M3, and BMW strongly discourages mashing the gas pedal when the engine is under no load. I believe most responsible high performance car manufacturers would concur with that piece of advise.
Other than the rod bearing resource/production problem plaguing cars built in oct.nov.dec.of '01 the car is extremely reliable and one that pumps out 333hp, 262tq from a 3.2 litre engine at 8000 rpm.
It is possible to build a high performance car that is reliable and whose manufacturer will step up to the plate when a systemic problem arises. I will own a Ferrari when these missing pieces fall into place.
Cheers - Bob |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
Indeed!
Many thanks to you all for your kind wishes!!! |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 248
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
Dave,
I'm very happy that you were able to come to a resolution to your problems on the 550. Your FNA judgement and service is going to be a new standard that we hope they can offer to other owners. Better yet, may make them take a closer look at their warranty policies for the future.
Cheers.
ps: I'm sure you slept a whole lot sounder the last night! The next drive should be a great one!!! |
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member
Username: Fuiszt
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 7:35 am: | |
I read-in autoweek, not the enquirer- that BMW was instructing owners of the affected M3s not to rev the engine while not under load, and to carefully follow the temp-variable redline feature these cars have. And that they could check the cars computer to see if this had been followed. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 414
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:09 pm: | |
Yes, congrats Dave regarding FNA comming through for you ...
Excellent news
Pete |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 100
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 10:59 pm: | |
Just be glad you didn't get a Mercedes. Did you see the C wagon in Autoweek that fell apart (literally) in their hands over 20k miles!
Congratulations on FNA coming through with the repairs.
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Norman (Storminnormin)
Junior Member
Username: Storminnormin
Post Number: 121
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 8:43 pm: | |
Maranelloman, The rapid and positive resolution with your situation is wonderful and indicative that FNA DOES care. Superb!! Happy for you!! |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 412
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 8:40 pm: | |
Jim,
Hmmmm, ofcourse revving an unloaded motor is a bad thing. I've classic raced a simple little old MGB many years ago that survived perfectly happily for many years AFTER, with me revving to redline and dropping the clutch every race start. I hated doing it ... but it was the only way to get the humble little car off the line at any decent acceleration rate.
Okay don't get so upset about it ..., but I do know of many cases where what is told the customer is NOT the truth but a cover up of the real issues. Remember my father was a service manager for many years and this sort of BS does happen. Note: I am not saying that BMW have done that in this case ... though sounds a bit suss to ME personally. I also cannot think of why owners would even be doing this ... unless they were starting races ... I've never met anybody who does this, just for fun!
Faisal,
Again never said the company should not come through and stand by its product ... but you are wrong regarding having a performance car and reliability.
Performance requires the opposite of what is required for reliability, i.e. light weight and highly stressed engines are required for performance but the EXACT opposite of what is required for reliability. This is why the Kenworth trucks to not out accelerate your Ferrari as they are built for reliability ONLY, not high speed/acceleration and cornering ability.
Thus if you want to go real fast you have to push the performance envelope ... if you want 100% reliability then you are not going to go that fast either.
Note: a F550 is already a compromise so you should expect some sort of reliability. The discussion here is what is acceptable reliability?
Pete
ex: Mechanical Engineer, designer of many automated airport baggage systems (that use highly complicated mechanical and computer systems) some even in US airports. Designer of machines that manufactured steel roof tiles and guttering, and a fair bit of materials handling equipment along the way. Also have produced a few designs of engines that will probably never get off the drawing board ... er, computer system. Modification designs (in the camshaft area required due to lack of support for cam followers) for an Alfa Romeo Sud engine did happen and resulted in a lovely 1600cc engine that produced a relatively reliable 200hp at 9000rpm ... ie: rebuilds only required every season or so, plus other design work for this and other race cars of mine. Worked in my parents car repair garage (before my father sold up and went back to service managing) including rebuilding Jaguar twin cams, etc. ... also worked as a mechanic during my university years for an Alfa Romeo specialist. Thus I think I have a pretty good idea of the subject ... maybe not the best, or as good as you Jim ...
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Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
Junior Member
Username: Lndshrk
Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
Pete,
PLEASE, give it up. You haven't a smidgen of an idea of what you are talking about, in re:
"as what does every race motor do at the start of EVERY single race, before they drop the clutch. Some even sit on the rev limiter"
And what does any real "race car" do AFTER every race? Tear down and complete blueprint. Rebuild if needed.
(And what do many "race cars" do during the race? EXPLODE their internal bits on the track in a hail of hot, oily metal!)
Criminy, stop leading people down your golden path to WRONG conclusions.
If you rev any motor unloaded, it is NOT good for the motor. PERIOD.
A "race car" needs reliability to finish the number of miles in a race (+a few maybe).
A street car should run 100kmi/160kkm without major trouble. Many run twice that.
Go ENGINEER a few engines, or a few control systems and then come back with some (assuredly new)
theories based on sound engineering practice.
Jim |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 73
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
The point is that you can have your cake and eat it too.
You can have a performance car and expect it to not fall apart.
And if things go wrong, you can expect the company to come through for you. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 411
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
Faisal,
quote:PSK,
You contradicted everyone who said this was not acceptable. When challenged, you claimed that you were making the same point, or describing a different side of the same coin.
I can't wait to see how you claim that this is consistent with the BS you have been posting.
Faisal.
Please explain your point. I have at no time said that FNA should not sort this out ... My point was that if you are buying a car, new or otherwise, and expect reliability and low cost maintenance you should NOT buy a Ferrari.
That is what I was trying to say. Ferrari's focus is naturally on performance and style first and foremost.
Regarding Lotus, Good on them for improving the came, probably happened when Isuzu owned them. The front wheel drive Elan has an Isuzu engine and not sure where the others came from, but the early Esprits had Vauxhall based engines and the earlier models still had Ford based engines. All these engines have reliability issues that everyone knows about, and other fragility issues with the rest of the car ... and like Ferrari a lot of these issues relate to performance comes first attitude. Most modern issues relate to rattles and squeaks from the fibreglass bodies.
Again I am not knocking Ferrari OR Lotus, my point is that the design brief is PERFORMANCE first, reliability second. If you don't like that buy something else. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Porsche come very close, but they cost lots to maintain too.
BTW: The BMW comment regarding not revving a motor while stationary is BS ... as what does every race motor do at the start of EVERY single race, before they drop the clutch. Some even sit on the rev limiter ... thus good on BMW selling that one to the public ... but that is NOT the cause of the problem just a hiding of the real issue. But again good on BMW extending the warranty. Again even BMW cannot get it right all the time ... it is after sales performance that makes the difference and in this case FNA have stepped up and kept a customer happy, excellent.
Again buy a performance car and accept the risk!
Pete |
Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member
Username: Milo
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 3:47 pm: | |
I like you early adopters. When I'm ready to get a 550 you previous owners will have all the bugs worked out of them. Thanks in advance.
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Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member
Username: Patrickr
Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 3:46 pm: | |
Tony, you're right. Lotus designed the engines but they were built by Mercury Marine in Stillwater, OK... just down the road from me
Patrick |
Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member
Username: Mrpc12
Post Number: 176
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Dave:
That's why I sold mine with 22K miles. I had already put over $20K into it in the last 18 months. Some were the same items as yours. |
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member
Username: Fuiszt
Post Number: 73
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
I'm happy for you Dave! Now what do you do...they won't cover it the next time. Very nice gesture from FNA though. Maybe these things are a chronic problem and are on an internal fix it list/private recall.
I thought Mercury Marine built the ZR1 engine, not Lotus. |
Tenney (Tenney)
Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 354
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
Good for you, Dave. And good for FNA. I'd a similar experience in the late '80's when a part failed that resulted in approx. 4k worth of service work. Car was off warranty for less than a year and so I was prepared to ante up. The dealer (LFSC) noted that the part was faulty (nothing to do with normal wear and tear) and ran it past FNA. FNA elected to cover all repairs, plus flat bed fee, detailed the car, topped off the tank and sent me on my way. |
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