| Author | Message | ||
| Collin Hays (Chaysintexas)
Junior Member Username: Chaysintexas Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2002 |
I know the feeling. I've been eyeing an Ebay multi-retread. It's a 348TS in Denver. Ad says "Has to go", yet they never respond to my inquiries, etc. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 310 Registered: 1-2003 |
A place to start is by taking an extremely good look in the interior, trunk,etc. My first FCar purchase had the owners business card under the seat (who was having his car consigned where I bought it). Needless to say, I contacted him for HIS bottom acceptable price. The second car, I found the prior owners insurance card, but I did not have any reason to contact that owner, but I could have. On this purchase, I had full trust in the dealer and the price was not an issue. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2003 |
Arlie, good point, very well stated. As an example, Shelton in Fl. had a 1997 355 spider Black/Tan sitting around for many months. When they finally "Lowered" the price to a Buck-Eighteen it sold. Still too high IMHO. Price sells. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2222 Registered: 9-2001 |
What I have noticed is that in magazine ads of FNA dealers the prices on a pre-owned a/k/a used Maserati is never listed. Even though the same dealer may list prices for used Ferraris, they do not on the used Maseratis. I think that they're afraid that the bottom is about to fall out of the used Maserati market like it did on the Bi-turbo of years ago. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1079 Registered: 5-2002 |
It all sounds like typical used car dealer tricks and manipulation and excuses. Fact is, if you have a decent car for sale, hang a fair price tag on it and somebody will buy it. Doesn't matter if it's a Ferrari, Chevy, or a used lawnmower, price it fair and somebody will buy it. If it sits around TOO long, then maybe the price is TOO high. | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 891 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kevin, There is no fixed percent spread re asking price/reasonable offer.There are so many variables the most obvious being is the asking price inflated? The only way to tell is to do one's homework-using Hemmings,Ferrari Market letter etc.Then knowing what recent sales have brought in one can make a "reasonable bid" You will always pay at least 5% or more at a dealership than private but of course there are advantages that go along with the increase-such as recourse etc. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 308 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have no problem when I see ads that do not state a price. That is just the style of the dealer. It should not mean they are 'good' or 'bad'. I do have a problem in calling a dealer that will not give their asking price over the phone. This has happened to me. At that point, I will tell them that if they want the opportunity for my visit, it has to start with them giving me a price over the phone. The dealer needs to give incentive to the caller to visit their lot. | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member Username: Challenge Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2002 |
OK, so we all agree that specific market value for a Ferrari (or anything for that matter) varies greatly with a number of variables. But, in general when dealing with, say, an authorized F-dealer on a used car what is the customary spread between the asking price and the actual price the car sells at? 5%? 7%? 10%? Same question for individual owners. In other words, if there is a F355 I like at a dealer asking $100K, what is a "reasonable" low-ball bid...that is, still high enough to let them know I'm serious? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1468 Registered: 6-2001 |
JM: The car shows fantasic in person. Art | ||
| JM Zarka (Crazy_horse)
New member Username: Crazy_horse Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2002 |
Arthur, Thanks.I am aware of it but not so sure about Green. It's like an Italian car with a British accent! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1466 Registered: 6-2001 |
JM: I'd call Ferrari of SF (415-380-9700) They have a 456A, a 2002, at what I think is a great price. Art | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 523 Registered: 1-2003 |
He was not a Ferrari dealer. As a matter of fact, he was a domestic dealer. He had records to back up how he advertised. He had kept results of ads placed and calls received from running them both ways. By not posting prices, he said his records showed about a 30% higher call rate than when he used to advertise with prices. And like Martin says, with the lead time involved, the market may shift before the publication actually comes out, thereby causing your price to be well above market. This man was straight forward in his approach and kept very organized records of everything. Of course, he was only one man and I am sure there are others out there like him who will defend the advertising with prices. I personally am up in the air about it. I am seeing two sides of the argument and both have merit. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4503 Registered: 5-2001 |
There is one big probelm with advertising prices today and I am a strong defender of such practise. In fact all my ads have prices: The magazines are asking for the material close to 2 months before the issue comes out. I have to give my ad by May 7th for the Robb Report July issue! The car may be sold then or the market had re-adjusted and my asking price is too high. Not easy! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 126 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jere, that sounds like a strong argument for sound business practices. However, I personally do not buy in to "I have priced it too low so people will never cal me". If it is a fire sale, and beleive me with F-Cars there are not too many, then yes it might be hard to explain the sub-market value pricing. With all due respect, I do not buy in to your source's explanation that he is faced with pricing an F-Car too low therefore he will not get any calls. If anything HE WILL GET A TON OF CALLS!! I think that it goes to back to my point that HOWEVER the car is priced, they want a fair opportunity to sell you on the feautures/benefits, conditions of THEIR car. | ||
| Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Member Username: Questioner Post Number: 521 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have talked to a good many dealers over the years and seen them advertise their cars in many different ways. One of the dealers spoke with me and explained why he does not state prices in his ads for his used vehicles. 1. If he puts the price too high, no one will call and ask about car. Most will think he is trying to rip them off and he will not even get the opportunity to speak to them. 2. If he prices too low, many will think there is something wrong with the car and not call because they think they are getting someone else's problem. Either way he is limiting his possibility of making contact with interested buyers. He says that if he advertises with a good, concise, clear description of the car and it sounds like the prospective buyer might be interested in, the prospective buyer will usually call and inquire directly. This gives him the opportunity to discuss the car with more people. He says he will always give the price to someone who contacts him on the car, whether by e-mail or the phone and this opens up an avenue of exchange thru which the two of them can discuss the vehicle. He says that he prices his cars on the current market and will adjust prices up or down from current market values taking into account mileage and condition. He says that any vehicle should only sell for what the current market really is and not higher. His belief is that if he sells it too high and makes a quick killing, sooner or later the buyer will find out he was taken and the dealer will lose all future business along with any referrals that could be generated. He says it is not profitable in the long term to try to make too much on one person in the short term. He says he has learned over the years that a satisfied customer tells four others and that a dissatisfied one tells ten. It only makes sense to work for the satisfaction. This is just his idea on posting prices. It seemed to make sense to me as it allowed him the opportunity to talk to everyone who is genuinely interested enough to contact him. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Junior Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 123 Registered: 1-2003 |
When I was looking for a 355 or 360 I found many Ferrari dealers were very quick to respond ie: Ferrari of New England, Shelton Ferrari, Ferrari of Denver and Los Gatos. I found quite a few dealers (non Ferrari) advertising on Dupont did not even have the car to show without an appointment. Sometimes several dealers had the same car available for sale. Test Drives? you got to have a purchase agreement subject to a test drive. Shelton Ferrari (Bud Root and Wil Campbell) let me drive a Yellow 360 Spider without asking whether I was in the market. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 125 Registered: 4-2003 |
AS Craig eloquently stated, it is a sales process. It is not by randon chance that these ads do not disclose their prices. It is also not by chance that when you call them they will not give you the price. JM, you mentioned that you are on the East Coast, and you mentioned West Coast dealers. I would venture to guess that the price is not going to be quoted because you are not there in person. Logic would tell me that if you explained the logistical challenge to the sales person, and he percieved you to be a bona fide buyer, you MAY get a more positive response. WHEN I SEEE THOSE ADS, here is what I infer: 1) There is going to be higher than the average asking price. Let's face it, I am sure the sales person would get tired of continualy hearing "what, that is a lot more than these 5 ads I just saw, you will NEVER sell that car for that much". "Oh and by the way, do you want to negotiate??" Hell no, he does not want to negotiate, not with you at least. You are too informed, and do not buy into the exorbitant premium for the percieved value. 2) In general, if the car is at a FNA dealer it may be a cleaner example, thus commanding a higher price. That is a very broad statement but I have found it to hold true. I truly think that when the sellers are trying to consumate a deal on these top dollar asking prices, STRONG sales startegy comes into play. The condition/overall appeal of vrious examples, run the whole gamet of service, condition, history, etc. If you want a really clean, documented car you will pay a premium. How much? Who knows. On the other end of the spectrum, if you want a car that has ran throuh auction, had the seats re-dyed, and higher mileage you will literally saves tens of thousands of dollars. My point is the reason there is no price is because the price is ALWAYS high. Is it justified? Depends on what you are looking for. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4498 Registered: 5-2001 |
As for not responding, I have the principle: If you take the time to write or call me, I have the time to write, call you back! And that as fast as possible. If they don't then stop shopping there! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4497 Registered: 5-2001 |
Let me give you all a dealer perspective: You own a F355 Spider and you want to sell it to a dealer (trade in). The market price on the car is $ 95,000. FML demands $ 110,000, you think your car is worth $ 105K. At the same time the 360 Spider you want to buy is worth market $ 220,000, you want to pay $ 210,000 and trade in your F355 for $105K. Effectively: You want $ 10,000 too much for your car and $ 10,000 less than market. Where is the dealer profit? And then you will be ranting here if the dealers actually put the asking prices higher since you will negotiate anyhow. Who bought a Ferrari at full asking price and paid also MARKET PRICE???? You have to ask 110% of market to have the ability to make the buyer feel good that he accomplished to negotiate you down! It is a rediculous game but you all play it. No exceptions! | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 576 Registered: 1-2001 |
I agree with P.Thomas. Sales 101 says you need to talk with the customer directly so you have to provide enough information to pique their interest but leave enough out that they will call. Some cutomers buy on price alone and are not wise to the wheeling & dealings so setting a fixed price would eliminate them right away. Some wouldn't call because they may think that the price is just beyond what they can reach with a good deal. Some of these people may after hearing how good a car is, extend their maximum buy cost for the right car. Some also may be influenced by emotion or the sales people to buy something beyond what they had originally planned. In the end, commodities are sold by price while luxury items like this are sold on other things which may include price. Sales tactics like this are used to widen the market. | ||
| mike 308 (Concorde)
Junior Member Username: Concorde Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2002 |
"plane and simle"?? Oh, "plain and simple"... | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2003 |
I am not naming any names, but why does a certain FNA Dealer in let's say Florida, always have the cleanest examples, NEVER EVER AHVE THEIR ASKING PRICE LISTED IN THE AD, AND ALWAYS HAVE THE HIGHEST ASKING PRICE???? See a correlation? People always look at the price first when browesing ads. If you are trying to sell ANY product for top dollar, you certainely would not want to try to sell the benifts/features, condition, appeal, in an ad or over the phone. Try calling ANY high end Gym and asked them what thier dues are. Well there you go, you will NEVER get a staight answer until they tour you through the whole gym. It is Sales Tatics 101, plane and simle. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 404 Registered: 11-2002 |
The internet and email is still really only an introduction, the phone call or interview/meeting is still the real kick off of SERIOUS interest. I get 20+ emails a day and I prioritise them in my head and ignore many  ... I would give them a call if you were serious ... as you would if you were really serious anyway. Pete | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1554 Registered: 8-2002 |
Doody, while I don't have any of these sources with me to compare, it seems that FML's Asking Price Index generally reflects lower values than those quoted in other periodicals such as Cavallino and Sports Car Market. Gerald's API is at least calculated using something tangible and doesn't claim to be anything more than what it is, leaving the reader to make his own assumptions. The others are based on the opinions of so-called experts. Why not list a price? | ||
| David W Burnett Jr (Dbdreams)
Junior Member Username: Dbdreams Post Number: 64 Registered: 3-2003 |
I have seen the practice of not listing the price used often on houses. As with cars the condition is often a big determining factor in the sale price. Thus just as with houses Ferraris can have a wide range of asking prices depending on condition and records. But give me a break, if the price is not listed up front, what else are they trying to hide. It is as if they think they can talk you in to paying more once they have you there in person. Most people in the process of making such a purchase will likely have a specific model in mind and have done their homework on just what the going price for that particular vehicle is. If the price is listed up front even if it is slightly higher than the average going price and if it is in their budget most serious buyers will investigate the car to better know all their options. If the seller omits the asking price then he may be effectively wasting his time answering a potential buyers question while if the buyer had known the asking price he may have been able to exclude it without wasting anyones time. I say any advertisment should be as detailed and honest as possible. PRICE, condition, color, overall appearance, records, and history. CUT THE BS, STATE THE FACTS AS THEY ARE INCLUDING THE PRICE and be done with it! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2003 |
The housing market, at least in the SF Bay Area is in near equilibrium (6 month supply) . 2 years ago that strategy would not work as there were way more buyers than sellers. For F-Cars there is still a strong demand. Sellers do not need to be involved in competitive downward bidding to move their properly priced cars. Really, why do you think you see so many posts on the way dealers are treating customers, especially the service departments??? It is basic supply and demand. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 297 Registered: 1-2003 |
I would never buy a Ferrari like this, no way, but it is a clever approach for standard cars | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 494 Registered: 9-2002 |
Peter, The problem with this approach is that not all dealers are selling the same car. In fact, if you're looking for a ferrari from a dealer, more likely than not it's used (because you'd have had an order fulfilled otherwise). Interesting strategy, as Faisal mentioned, but I'm not sure it would work in this context. --Dan | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 64 Registered: 3-2003 |
Peter, interesting strategy. I read about doing something like this in The Millionaire Next Door, but the author didn't have much luck. There is a book called How To Sell Your House In 5 Days that uses pretty much the same approach. It seems to be a successful strategy for selling (don't know about buying) houses. I would guess that you would have a tougher time trying to get Ferrari dealers to agree to this. But worth a shot, definitely. If anyone succeeds, please post here and let us know. Rgds, f | ||
| JM Zarka (Crazy_horse)
New member Username: Crazy_horse Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2002 |
This is getting interesting. First of all either you want to sell your car or you don't. I don't get the concept of " no desperate sellers ". A door is open or shut nothing in between. Why would anyone go through the trouble of placing an ad if his intention is not really to sell the vehicle or to price it so above market that it won't sell ? If I was to only do business with honest straight foward dealers who list cars at fair value I would be very limited in my choices. The problem is that because exotic car buying is so emotional people will take advantage no matter what. Thanks heaven for forums such as FC where all F car enthusiasts unite and point out the rotten apples that NONE of us should patronize. JM | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have purchased my last three cars (Chrysler Concorde and two Explorers) in the last three years in the following manner (after I defined the car I wanted and went to three+ dealers with a similar product): After picking the cars I would be ready to purchase, I invited the dealers to a private chat room on AOL at a specific, exact time and date. Prior, I faxed a letter to each dealer with my VISA that would trigger a 'non-refundable 'hold deposit' they would run after the bid if I called them and advised that I will accept their bid. This gave all of the dealers the 'warm fuzzies' that I was not joking around. They had 15 minutes to bid against other dealers. On the purchase of my Chrysler, I had five dealers in on this process. They all saw where the prices were going (down!). I established four rounds of bids. Every dealer saw the other dealers bid. The first bid was about $2K below the sticker which was $26.4K. By the 4th round, the best dealer had a price of $21.8 and included a 75K mile extended warranty and a bra. When I closed the bid, I drove to the dealer and took possesion of the car. The same worked equally as well for the two trucks I purchased in 2000 and 2002. In this case, I had to visit seven dealers to get three that would go along with my bid process for the 2000 and four to get two for the 2002. The above lets the buyer call the shots and you do not get runaround from the sales staff! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1010 Registered: 11-2001 |
i tend to disagree a bit. listing a car for sale and not showing the price is entirely the seller's prerogative. if you don't like that, don't shop there. the fact that FML requires an asking price is relatively silly, because it effeictvely dictates that the non-desperate sellers just put in a high price, which makes their Asking Price Index so very inflated that it's nearly non-helpful (other than the deltas over time - that in theory should be directionally useful data, but the actual dollar numbers IMO are nearly worthless). that said, any dealer who won't respond in a timely manner to a direct inquiry on a vehicle, regarldess of the medium of said inquiry, including responses to ALL of the inquirer's questions, isn't a dealer that deserves your business. shop elsewhere - life is too short to work with people who "don't get it". doody. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2003 |
RULE #1: I have NEVER seen an ad where the price is low (or moderate), and the seller did not or will not give you the price. Deduction/interpetation = the price is above market value, gauranteed. They feel like they can only sell you if you are there in person. Snow balls chance in hell for an educated buyer. I did not even call any of the ads without a price, because frankly I do not like to hear the song and dance and attitude about how clean it is, low mileage, bla bla bla. Price sells! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1737 Registered: 1-2001 |
One of the good things about the FML IMO is that an "asking" price must always be included in the ad. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1078 Registered: 5-2002 |
Those "priceless" ads have been around too long everywhere. Doesn't matter whether it's Ferrari or Chevy; internet dealership or local yocal in the newspaper. Most classic car sellers are just looking to make a killing from a big fish. Heaven forbid that they actually post a price! Someone might actually come along and buy the car at that price and they would have to put up or shut up. So naturally, they price it at 150 percent of what it's really worth. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 492 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've been speaking with a few - and I have to admit, Sean emailed me back within 2 or 3 hours, and it was definetly after-hours. Very curteous and expedient. My guess is most of them get so many emails, or they're technologically 'behind' the curve - phone is the best approach. --Dan | ||
| JM Zarka (Crazy_horse)
New member Username: Crazy_horse Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2002 |
Why put Fcars for sale on the net whether on FNA website or Dupont if you not going to respond when a potential buyer inquires about prices ? I would not buy a car from any of these so called dealers when they do not even have the decency to respond to your emails. The only one courteous enough to respond right away is Steve Harris ( the owner responded to me about an inquiry I had within hours ). I wish I had the time to call and chat on the phone with a salesman but I don't plus a lot of dealers that have decent inventory are on Pacific time and I am in NY. I am in the market for a clean 456M GT with low miles and most of them are either in LA or SF. I guess those dealers must think I am so kind of kid having nothing better to do than ask about car prices. There shouls be a law that says that if you advertise a car for sale STATE THE PRICE ! |