| Author | Message | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 347 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm not sure that is the correct 'F' word!  | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 384 Registered: 4-2003 |
Laughing my Ferrari Automobile off? | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 348 Registered: 10-2002 |
LMFAO! | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 344 Registered: 1-2003 |
rtfm...Does it mean Return The Ferrari Mondial? Ps: thanks for the ROTF! | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 343 Registered: 1-2003 |
rtfm...Does it mean Return The Ferrari Mondial? Ps: thanks for the ROTF! | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 86 Registered: 3-2003 |
rolling on the floor you know what rtfm means, right? | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 342 Registered: 1-2003 |
lazy/brilliant can be a good thing!...I still want to know what ROTF means | ||
| Jordan (Jhl1963)
New member Username: Jhl1963 Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hmm, after 5 years of spending a ton of time reading vehicle related car forums....this is the first time I have seen someone post requesting a "cliff note" version of a thread!!!! This falls on the lazy/brilliant line.... | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 341 Registered: 1-2003 |
I get LMAO, but what is ROTF? | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 366 Registered: 4-2003 |
ROTFLMAO! Jack | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 340 Registered: 1-2003 |
Faisal, The cop can wear grass underwear, but if his donut is cream filled or an oily fritter, he'll probably need to throw away his underwear after only one day of use. The amount of cool air circulated in his car may extend the life of the grass underwear, depending on how many times he got out of his car in X heat and humidity. Please see the graph. You will see that as the ambient temperature goes up, the underwear�s useful life diminishes (Please note that I do not have the information handy that shows how methane decreases the life of grass underwear). The Critical Peak (CP) factor is at 100 degrees @ 68.4% relative humidity (RH). Please note the 'Danger Area' (DA) past 68.4% and above 100 degrees (Circled). Past this point, one should have a spare set of grass underwear with them, stored in a cool, dry area of the car.....I am hopeful this information is useful.  | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1013 Registered: 12-2001 |
Rich, Faisal, thank you. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2003 |
lol Mike, Thanks, but I couldn't find the line which corrects for inflation and the price of grease. Faisal, Thanks. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2003 |
mike, i see the error of my ways. now, if a cop eats four doughnuts for breakfast and his car weighs 4,000 pounds unladen, can he be wearing grass underwear under a grass skirt? thx, f | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2002 |
Faisal, Please be sure to review both graphs appearing earlier in the thread before making any further comments. Vincent, all your shifting point questions can be answered by logical deduction from the aforementioned two graphs. For more information, please find succint answers here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/224292.html?1051915554 The most recent post is a derivation and proof involving various convolutions of well-known mathematical equations. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 212 Registered: 4-2003 |
I gave up when it loading the thread could be timed with a calendar. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2723 Registered: 12-2000 |
I gave up on that thread two weeks ago. Just remember all of these equations, theories, graphs, etc... when you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic with the temp needle going all-too-easily past the 200° mark, crawling forward so slowly, that the infamous 10mph Ferrari speedo barely nudges off its stop. Yep, all of that is so useful then... | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2003 |
rich, no. you shift at beyond peak torque to make sure that 1. you have taken advantage of the entire powerband in the current gear, and 2. to make sure that when the revs drop as you shift up, you are again in the powerband in the next gear. it's not important to go up to redline, but it is important to shift up (or reduce revs) once you reach redline. exploiting the powerband (in each gear) is the key. rgds, faisal. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 209 Registered: 10-2001 |
Mr. Hart, basically, the reason shifting up near redline is faster than shifting either at torque peak in that gear or shifting where you will be at torque peak in the next gear is gear ratios. I think you will find that whatever torque you are making at say 8000rpms times the gear ratio of the gear your are in will be more than the torque you will make at *any* rpm in the next gear once you shift (because the next gear will have a smaller multiplier gear ratio, i.e. gears go from 3.0 to 2.3 to 1.8 to 1.0 or whatever). So you might as well stay in the gear you are in for as long as possible: until you will be making more torque to the wheels if you shift. For my dino engine (V6) the shift points for fastest acceleration work out to something like 8000rpm, then 7500, then 7000 and 7000. The points move to lower rpms because each subsequent gear has a smaller jump (i.e. 3.0 to 2.1 to 1.6 to 1.0 to .89). Does that make sense? BTW, no one in that other thread is arguing about this. They are only discussing acceleration in the same gear and if it necessarily is greatest at torque peak. No shifting. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 199 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ok, so I am thinking. So what if you launch at too low of rpms? Does that increase clutch life but then does it decrease engine life? At what point on the clutch life replacement cost to engine life rebuild cost curve is the best place to launch? Engine last longer but cost more, clutches are less but wear out faster, what should I do? | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 333 Registered: 1-2003 |
Heeeereee we go again! | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 543 Registered: 8-2001 |
Brian, Faulty thinking on my part. I was thinking that shifting at or near redline would put similar wear as high RPM launch. Thinking this through, I can see where this would not be true. OK, I sometimes make mistakes. Last one was in 1992 - LOL. Dave | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 301 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dave, are you asking about shifting at redline or launching at redline... or was that two separate questions??? Launching at redline would be a clutch eater. Shifting at redline is not... though certainly there will be some minor increase in wear on everything up near redline. Any hard launching (even not at redline, which would be less than ideal anyway), will be hard on the clutch... driven properly, that's where a large proportion of clutch wear should be coming (at launches). Note... to invoke this thread's namesake... launching at peak torque would be closer to optimal than at redline. But in the case of a launch, you're actually better to back off to less than peak torque in most Ferraris, because you can't use all that anyway. If the tires' traction only allow half of peak torque initially, rising to 3/4 peak torque once you have weight shifting onto the drive wheels, then you want to launch at the lowest RPM that give you about half peak torque and then "squeeze" on the power ramping up to 3/4 peak torque as the weight shifts and then on up to peak torque. Having the engine much higher than that is just increasing clutch wear and reducing launch acceleration. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 540 Registered: 8-2001 |
Does shifting at redline shorten cluch life? Some people who like BMWs have told me that the M-3 in the Euro launch mode needs a new cluch after about 40 launch starts. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2002 |
William: The answer to your question is, yes. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 186 Registered: 4-2003 |
"why the advantage of taking the engine all the way up to redline before shifting?" It sounds so good when the needle is almost horizontal and ponting to the right. But really...you need to take it far enough in order to take advantage of max torque in the next gear. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1008 Registered: 12-2001 |
Rich: not to be a •••• or anything, cause your comment about shifting at redline goes to the core of the problem those guys are dissecting with math equations, but if the car (engine, drive train,gearing etc.) puts out its max torque at a point below the redline of the engine, why the advantage of taking the engine all the way up to redline before shifting? | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter: The answer to your question is, yes. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2001 |
Lou asked: "Has anyone offered actual DATA rather than theory?Accel times on the same car shifting at peak torque (4-5000rpm) vs red line?" -- If you are talking about shifting, the shifting at redline is always faster. The longer you stay in the first gear, the longer you take advantage of the multiplying effect of the transmission gear ratio. I think I'm supposed to add a joke or something in here too but it's too early in the morning! | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh My God....TMADAHRPM is past 450 posts! Are we starting this over?..Mike: Is the Price line in your graph based on new or used? | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 356 Registered: 9-2002 |
Noppe, just kiddin' around | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2003 |
Oh no...a second wave of Psuedo-Intellectuals evolves! | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 355 Registered: 9-2002 |
Peter, hardened steel degregates at high tempertures because of changes in the moleculair structure (as we call it, "kristal structuur") Depends on which kind of steel (carbon %) and which temperatures (well, those are the main things). Easy to follow out of the FeC-diagram :  Easy right ;) Oopz, sorry to go Off-topic. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2001 |
Has anyone offered actual DATA rather than theory?Accel times on the same car shifting at peak torque (4-5000rpm) vs red line? | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2001 |
Since some of you are proficient graphic artists, can anyone make me a graph of the effects of Jose Cuervo on one's behavior with time, number of drinks and idiocy factored in? | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2002 |
You know a thread has made an impact when you have another non-trivial thread mocking it! | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2003 |
Duh, look at it sideways. Your graph is clearly showing peak acceleration at idle???!!! ;-) | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 178 Registered: 4-2003 |
LOL, UH OH! looks like the debate is starting all over again. Peter, what have you done? | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2002 |
No it doesn't! You're just plain wrong, Faisal. Everybody knows peak acceleration always happens at redline! Duh! That's why they put it there!!!! Here, this graph shows it all very clearly. If after looking at the graph you still don't get it, then you're an idiot.  Really, I am very, very much just kidding. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2003 |
Eric, even in such vehicles (with badly built engines) peak acceleration still happens at peak torque. But if you want any more detail, dive into the other discussion! Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| Eric (Vette)
New member Username: Vette Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2003 |
i was wondering about that too... as far as i can figure...the only way you get less acceleration at torque peak is if you have a badly built engine...hp and torque both contribute to acceleration and if you have 600 ft lbs at 2000 rpm but only have 25 hp you wont accelerate as well as 350 ft lbs @ 5k rpm with 300 hp. sorta like how 4000 lb landmoving diesel vehicles with 175 hp and 600 ft lbs dont accelerate better than your neighbors honda. but what do i know. im not an engineer :D | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 314 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bill...A few gave me good 'ding-ding school 101' answers that were excellent for a layman. I'll figure out the rest of the text when I get my PhD is physics in about a hundred years! | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1000 Registered: 12-2001 |
Gee, may be this could be the non-engineer, dummy level, i missed that day in algebra in the 7th grade group. So tell me, if torque is the twisting force that propels the wheel/tire to make the thing move forward, how can a car accelerate faster than the point where it is exerting max twisting force? (Question: Was that the question)? Leave aside whether it is an African swallow and don't make windspeed a variable. Gracie. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 131 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, no the question did not seem to get answered. But there are a lot of graphs and mathimatical equations if you want some night time reading. Robert your right , it is shoes size. Time to drive and have some fun. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 205 Registered: 4-2002 |
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the original question boiled down to HOW HIGH SHOULD I REV THE FREEKING ENGINE WHEN DRIVING TO HAVE SOME FUN BUT NOT SCREW IT UP! Did anybody answer that question yet? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Junior Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 174 Registered: 4-2003 |
Peter, You might want to let those guys rest for a bit once they are done. Then I say go for it. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 312 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jerry, I made the original post. I thought a few of the guys were going to kill each other! The threads are worthy of printing and reading. There is a great deal of talent there. After that post, I am scared to death to post 'Tell me about how high temperatures degregate hardened steel transmission gears' | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2002 |
P. Thomas, <<acceleration>> I disagree. It is divided by your shoe size! | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2001 |
In short, everyone but EFWUN says all you need know is that F=M*A and that ANY car will accelerate the greatest at its torque peak (i.e. it's max "f". EFWUN claims that "it depends" and there may be scenarios in which a car will accelerate greater at a higher rpm than its published torque peak. He says stuff like: "You can only evaluate F=MA for one F per equation. Simply, if F varies as a function of increasing rpm, then you cannot evaluate F=MA, other than as a discrete series of instantaneous equations. Simply put, when F accomplishes ANY forward movement, it becomes F*D or Work. Work as a function of time is Power, and Power = Delta KE/time." Things like the effects of gear ratios and why you should nearly always redline your car in each gear for max acceleration are accepted by all. Personally I'm not interested in doing the math. I just think that "it depends" is always preferable to any statement about an absolute truth, ha! That's all that's going on over there, for the last 500 posts or so, ha! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 130 Registered: 4-2003 |
Here is a synopsis: Acceleration equals velocity times torque, divided by the sum of your immediate family size, eqauls the square root of something or other, cubed. I have been around cars a long time and I can't follow it. I do know that eveyone is a self-proclaimed Engineer trying to prove their theory. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3796 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jerry, the thread has absolutely nothing to do with Saddam and actually started off as a Ferrari-related question... Go into the thread, read the initial question and then do like i'm doing: waiting until the thread dies, highlight it, print it out, take it home and read through the entire thing... i plan on actually learning something from it (although, i can't guarantee that's possible)... | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 648 Registered: 7-2001 |
I don't have time to read through that whole thread but I assume someone went ranting off on a tangent about Saddam or something...am I correct? |