| Author |
Message |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 158
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
G.-
That's funny...I have my 'most recent' three speeding tickets on my desk in my home office. I too was thinking about framing them as a compliment to my Ferrari shrine!
|
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Kevin,
Fine then no worries, I was brought up around what were really fast cars at the time. Street stuff was not a big deal. At the track the clock did not lie, if someone thought they were fast set a fast lap . Most people stick their kids in cars at 15 1/2 and expect them to do well by the time they reach 16. Every car we own has been enhanced with steel braided brake lines ,better suspension, and such. Most cars sold could be made to handle better or stop better with just a few bucks. If you can stop a few feet quicker perhaps it will prevent a accident. Having cool cars around all the time it becomes common place. In other words when the lastest whatever comes around we didn't want to run out and do something stupid. Having said that my collection of tickets for going triple digits is in my view is impressive ( all framed and hung in my study). Being a old fart familyman I still love the go pedal.In the end to each his own in how each feels is the correct way to raise their off spring. I do agree with the other posts that as a car nuts learning how to repair a car is a very important part of our youth. My dad's view of that is kinda old school, what the heck are you going to do if your on a date and the car breaks down ( this was pre-cell phones). My boys will be learn to tune their karts and bikes when they go to the track. Drive hard drive fast .
WFO |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 190
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 8:34 pm: | |
There have been some very compelling arguments that have been made here.
When I was a kid we all drove 375 HP Chevelles and Camaros on bias ply tires.
Add some rain and what a pile of crap handling car that was. We all survived, but I have to tell you that we were forced by peer pressure to drive faster than we really should have.
Had I driven mom's wagon I do not think that I would have placed myself in some pretty hair ball situation.
Cars like that FOR MOST 17 year olds is really not a good thing. I did however have a friend that was on the football team. His dad was in to hot rods big time. They built him a small block Camaro and THE ONLY place that he was allowed to get on it was at the track.
Safe? Hell yeah. Cool when leaving a party, school, game? No! Due to peer pressure he looked liked a dork. If a 17 year old can truly handle the peer pressure of owning a car like that they amen, do it.
Most kids can not. Sorry, that is how the real world works. |
Dan (Bobafett)
Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 548
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 8:08 pm: | |
DES: a few like G. Peter and Warren do... I went to a high school full of kids whose parents felt the same way, and were pretty successful at it. In fact, I can probably name quite a few kids who have done more for underpriveledged people while in HS than most people on this board have in their lives. And much to the dismay of most of the people who don't get it, it's not about showing off.
--Dan |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 3865
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 5:35 pm: | |
How come no one sees that you can give your kids something nice AND teach them the value of a dollar, at the same time...? This argument seems to be very black and white with everyone on one side or the other... What gives...? |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 189
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
To the sons whos Dads made them build cars: very cool! Of this, I'm jealous.
Luke. |
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 78
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:30 pm: | |
Let me start off by this, its Kens freinds money, and his kid, let him buy him whatever he wants, but heres my 2 cents.
I dont know any teens who dont drive a little fast more then often. Teenagers in slow cars are a bad combo too. I know of some guys who drive 17-19sec 1/4 mi cars and they still drive crazy, and yes they are teens. It doesnt matter if its a
"slow" Porsche or not, he is 17, and going to be driving a sports car. With having a Porsche he will have the bug to go faster 100x's that much more then he would a civic or beamer(s/he will still drive fast). It doesnt matter if he was buying his son a 80's CRX, he will still drive it fast once and a while, and he will STILL BE LEARNING HOW TO DRIVE, HE WILL STILL BE LEARNING HOW A CAR REACTS, HE WILL STILL BE UNEXPERIENCED WHEN IT COMES TO DRIVING. Sure, you can take him to a 5000 dollar driving school, but he will still be a n00b when it comes to the open road. Sure he can be the most mature teen in the world, but he lacks driving experience.
"Lastly putting your supposed loved one in a ill handling ,poorly suspended , bad brake having econo junk car is smart how?"
Yup, it is smart indeed. I myself started driving a 66 Impala when I was 16,(19 now) and I knew that car needed my respect when driving it, because if I dont repsect the car, it wont respect me. I said it before and I said it again, if you can "drive" this car, you can drive anything, and you know what? I can  My freinds never agreed with me on this, but once I gave em some time behind the wheel, they were believers
I think buy the child(if thats his plan) a regular car(Civic gets my vote) leting the child learn respect for what a car can do, and how a car reacts, and learning respect for a car is a smart choice. The teen maybe very mature, but if they dont have respect and most importantly driving experience, then the car will not respect you.
|
Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member
Username: Bryanp
Post Number: 90
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:20 pm: | |
I'm with Procopio - "it's not the car, it's the framework you set up around it." Just before I turned 16 (in 1978), I was given a '72 Opel Manta which someone had driven after the fan belt broke - engine fried. Sitting in the driveway next to it was a replacement engine from the junkyard. As soon as I rebuilt/installed the engine, I could drive it.
It doesn't have to be as extreme as an engine replacement, but if there is a way for the kid to have some kind of sweat equity in the car, he may be less likely to get into trouble with it - speeding, trashing it, etc. |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 156
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:19 pm: | |
G.-
I am not bitter, although I can admit my post may have sounded that way. I personally don't see the huge correlation between riding/racing recreational vehicles and anticipating the actions of others on public roads while obeying laws. It's just a different world. And I don't need an explanation of track driving. Thanks anyway.
Kevin |
Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member
Username: Lomotpk
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 3:15 pm: | |
Just a couple of outside risk factors to consider:
17 old American boy + 911 + Beer
It's important to point out that its an American boy for several reasons:
- American teen-agers are the most prolific, repetative 'binge drinkers' in the world.
- Risk factors increase if he's a member of a High School sports team. (not established in this case, but assumed)
- America, due to its size, has one of the lowest per-capita estimated drunk driver:arrest ratios in developed nations, there a too many roads and not enough cops. People who drink and drive on a regular basis kinda know this and factor it into their decision to 'go ahead, anyway', I'm pretty sure that at some point we have all made that little 'calculation'. In places with higher arrest ratios, like Germany, people who drink are much more conservative in their drink/driving 'calculations'.
- (I think) its been established that 911's do not behave like a 1.8 liter, 4 door, automatic sedan (for base comparison) and as such the POTENTIAL for putting a 911 into a high velocity situation is measurably greater. High velocity means two things; shorter time for evasive/corrective action (especially in a car that is known to be 'counter-intuitive', just ask all the 'experienced' 911 owners that 'lost the back' in the first year of ownership) and greater impact force. Speed kills, I know motorheads hate to hear it, but unfortunately its true, twice the speed ='s four times the force, death/velocity for single car accident stats don't lie.
-Finally there is incident rate/risk exposure. If you assume 50 weekends year X 2 nights (fri/sat) x 1% chance "our boy would ever do something like that" ='s Once a Year he's going to do it. Bump these numbers by 2 years of high school plus 4 years of college (where you don't come home to Dad)and a more realistic chance factor (social 17 year old with a Porsche)and the numbers go up.
I'm not trying to downer the whole deal, I'm not saying your kid's an alcoholic, we all love our kids, want then to have a great time/life, have fun we never had, yes they can wrap themselves around a telephone pole just as well in a mini-van, etc. But it seemed that this discussion had not fully considered another, important, factor in the decision process.
I've taken the Nomex off, flame away.
|
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 187
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 2:54 pm: | |
Mike,
Your car is pimpin'!
Love the color,
Luke. |
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 103
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 2:52 pm: | |
Butler,
You sound like a bitter individual. My point is by the time they reach legal driving age they will have been behind the wheel of some very fast vehicles . It won't be a big deal to them. When you can go as fast as you want on a track ,racing on the street is boring. Do I need to explain this further to you.
As for showing off to their peers ,that 's points to some self confidence issues in they way they were raised. The major problem is that people here are viewing this with their own level of finances. In other words what is to some a extravagence to others it's no big deal. If you feel like making your child work for everything you give him knock yourself out. That's why I posted teach them first how to manage and invest their funds, compassion for those with less than you, but I will add enjoy life you never know when it will be taken from you. My wife and I will spend as much time as we can with our boys and give them a very full and hopefully memory rich childhood because we have been very blessed to have the resources to do so. I would rather hang with my boys as much I can than send them off to Burger King to earn enough to buy a pile of crap so they can get around.
WFO |
Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Junior Member
Username: Teenferrarifan
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 2:50 pm: | |
Jeff is she looking for another kid? I will take a less lets say $400 a month.
Erik |
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member
Username: Pupz308
Post Number: 351
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
...and there's more to pay for than just the car.
My deal was: Here's a nice, strong car. Mike, happy birthday. You've got a 4.0, and have proven to me you know how to drive. Here's your car, it cost me $3,000. You drive it as long as your grades stay up, and under the condition that you get a standard job. (I had done lots of computer stuff as a kid.) I got a job bagging and cashiering at Albertsons, and kept my grades up. Trust increased.
This was not an abnormal situation for my friends, either. There was one difference, though--my parents paid for my "base" insurance. (See exception below.) Some of my friends were forced to pay their own insurance, which basically meant MOST of the money they earned from their part time, $5/hr job went to pay for their insurance. They never learned much about saving. They just worked to drive basically.
a) I learned to work hard and to save money, and had some left over for some nice things from time to time.
My folks paid the insurance, and I saved and invested my money. The deal was, they paid the base insurance--after the good student discount and all--. Any tickets I got, or anything else I did to raise the insurance, I would pay the difference between that and the base rate.
b) Things worked out so driving like a donkey would have direct financial consequences to me.
And finally, I always paid for gas.
c) Driving too much and/or carting everybody's ass around town would have direct financial consequences on me.
...and it worked out really, really well. I had already *earned* it by being a good kid, and I made sure I kept on *earning* it.
An old 911 isn't so different. Less safe, yes. (Seriously. It's not a safe, self-deceivers among you.) Flashier, yes. Too much power and general bling bling for a kid? Probably.
But it's not just the car--it's the framework you set up around it.
|
Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member
Username: Teachdna
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 2:16 pm: | |
Whew! Let's take a deep breath here and step back! The question has gotten buried in a blizzard of parenting philosophies, life plans and anecdotal happenings from wildly varying backgrounds.
Regarding whether "a 17 year old should have a Porsche" in a general sense my answer-and the general consensus of the thread is "no."
Why? Because for the broad, unwashed majority of adolescents who also happen to produce appreciable amounts of testosterone, the car is too powerful, too difficult to drive well at high speeds and too prone to be a show off car (C'mon Buddy, let's see what this baby will do!).
Are there exceptions to the above? Of course. But attacking people because you happened to have been one of the exceptions is a little silly. Again, the question was asked to the general audience and, in the absence of specifics, a general answer is/was appropriate.
With respect to whether it's good parenting to buy a kid an expensive (or even inexpensive) car..That's a whole other question. Again, the specifics are important. What's the most important lesson your particular kid needs to learn as s/he is growing up? I don't think there's any agreement on that, so how can there be a right answer for everybody as to whether or not they deserve a car?
For our particular situation, I've never allowed either of my boys (18 and 15) to drive one of the Porsches or the Ferrari (the one exception was to the senior prom, which was a back-and-forth to the girl's house and the school). From my point of view, knowing my boys, it's just not a level of risk with which I am comfortable.
Same thing for buying them cars-it's not something that I'm comfortable with. I still think that the more important life lesson for them to learn is to earn what they use and give some back when they can. But I recognize that that's not the view of all parents and may not be right for all families.
I just had an hour-long discussion with a woman who knows that I'm into cars and was asking me whether I thought it was a good idea for her to buy her son a Porsche Cayenne? Now, from my own personal view, I'm appalled at the thought of a parent even thinking that it was a good idea to give a kid, unearned, a $65,000 car. But she really couldn't understand my point of view and couldn't believe that I was going to allow my kid to be seen in a 1990 Volvo station wagon. When I suggested that he buy something he could afford-and get a summer job to pay for it, she just laughed and assumed I was joking. She did say that he was going to help pay for the insurance from his allowance. And just when I was sort of impressed that there was at least going to be some real value to this vehicle from the kid's point of view, she mentioned that they give him a $500.00/month allowance. I asked whether she was interested in adopting me?..
Different strokes for different families I guess. |
Warren L. (Warren)
Junior Member
Username: Warren
Post Number: 200
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
I personally think it's ok for the parents to get their kid a porsche, especially if it's an older one and not ridiculously out of their price range. My parents were extremely "nice" to me and I don't think I've had an negative side effects as a result. In fact, their willingness to get me nice things made me work really hard to show them I can get them for myself, and because I was used to these luxuries, when I was old enough to get a job on my own, I strived hard to obtain them. I even started taking manual labor jobs, much to their dismay at the end of H.S. and during college. After college, I worked hard and was lucky enough to do pretty well.
I drove my parents old lincoln continental during my junior year of H.S. and it broke down on me twice. Then after I got into a good school and the lincoln died for the last time, my dad surprised me with a new corvette. I drove this for half of my senior year and the summer time and then I went off to school. My younger bro got my vette which he banged up a couple times. Later my dad got me a 3000GT in college which was fun and my bro ended up getting an SLK during his college years. Why am I telling you guys this? Because neither of us turned up screwed up or thinking we were entitled to anything my parents could afford. We both work really hard and we both do well. Our parents are really proud and happy. Now we also have friends who drive the beemers, acura nsxs, porsches, benzes... who are spoiled as hell, don't want to work, take advantage of their parents... So I guess the point is, it's up to the parents to teach responsibility as well as for the kids to be respectful and reasonable as well. All in all, people are different, it's reasonable to assume a kid will get into trouble with a fast car because on the whole its kids who are the least experienced as well as bigger risk takers, BUT there are always exceptions. My dad's friends thought he was crazy to get me a vette in H.S., and YET, I think it was the only car that I didn't get a ticket in at the time, and that roster includes the old junker, lincoln continental.
P.S. it wasn't all fun to have a vette in H.S. I felt really self conscious and tried to hide from teachers and parents and even some other school kids. Even though most of my classmates drove Jeep Cherokees, BMWs, and Mercedes, I felt like a jerk sometimes, and a lot of the time I felt like, "why the f--- am I driving this thing when it makes me feel like this?" But then I would step on the pedal and its the summer time and I have the ttop down and the cheesy digital speedometer reads 95 and I'm cruising on the GSP and I smell the salt in the air as I approach the Jersey Shore, and I forget about everything else, and its was one of the happiest times I've ever had. thanks dad. |
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:42 pm: | |
tim, i am well aware of crush zones, so i guess my post was not specific enough. the honda in question was crushed, completely, including the passenger compartment (luckily nobody had been in the car - it was hit while parked). nobody in that car would have survived.
porsche has crush zones as well, except they stop giving at the firewall, and thereby keep the humans from bonding irreversibly with the metal. |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
This quote from Wfo_Racer "By the time they reach driving age they will have had 12 years of driving behind them." is nothing but B.S. Keep justifying it to yourself. I have driven, ridden, and raced damn near everything that moved by the time I hit 16 (10-speeds, BMX bikes, minibikes, gokarts, motorcross bikes, 3-wheelers, 4-wheelers, etc) but I don't think those things helped me too much when learning to drive. It's a different game.
I'm not jealous or envious. If you have the means, great. But I think these types of parents do this sort of thing for themselves, not their kids. Ever see those bumper stickers that start with "My son/daughter....." PUKE! |
joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member
Username: Ironjoe
Post Number: 159
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
G.Peters, Ross Koller, VERY WELL SPOKEN,Ive had many 911,930..They have EXCELLENT structural integrity.Also my sons been racing Moto since 2 1/2 years old,hes got about 50 or so trophys and alot of powerslide,911 style experiance at 10 allready,evryone should put their child on a atv,go cart,dirt bike, then the track days at 16 n up will come naturally and consume cherished father/son time TOGETHER...ots all what you put into them..very true... |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 185
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
Having owned several 911s, anyone look under the hood of the front of a 911. Um, there is nothing there!
Don't let the size of a car fool you. Does anyone remeber the test on 5000 lb SUVS. At 5 MPH bumpers were tweaked thus popping tires, windows were enirely blown out and the average cost to repair was 5K!!
Really the best car safety wise is a MB, second and much more affordable is a Volvo. But how are you going to get a kid to drive a car that sounds like one of his mom's private parts?? |
Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 2930
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Ross, the honda is supposed to crush like that. The crushing of the car absorbs all the enrgy, so its not transferred to the occupants. The occupants are well protected. This is why you see mangled cars with people being able walking away from them. IF the car didnt give, all the forces get transfered to the people inside the car. |
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
ever since i saw a honda crushed like an accordion by a vw scirocco that sustained major damage but still had an intact driver and passenger cell, i will never buy myself or a loved one a honda. efficient for sure, just not where i would want to be in an accident. and btw, i have seen plenty of mangled porsches and heard even more stories (my father owned and raced porsches for 25 years), and most (if not all) of the time the driver/passenger cells were fine. what the kid does with the car is of course an infinite variable, but there is no argument in my book as to whether a honda is safer than a porsche; the answer is no. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
A Honda still seems to be the most appropiate, no matter what criteria you use, Honda seems to be the magical word. |
neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member
Username: 95spiderneal
Post Number: 135
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:50 am: | |
imho as far as safety goes, obviously avoid rear wheel drive performance cars. also avoid sedans, or suv's that can cram in 5+ kids with cell phones, etc. i think perfect teenage sports car is audi tt awd with the low hp engine. well built, safe handeling, beautiful, easily modified later one, etc. get a used one off lease and save $. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 180
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:39 am: | |
It is a big tough world out there. There really is nothing good that can come from giving a teen a Porsche 911.
If the kid is getting a 911, imagine what else he gets (limo for the prom, vacations at spring break, all 100% paid for by the parents).
Here is my question: WHEN THE TEEN TURNS 21 HOW ON EARTH WILL HE BE ABLE TO SUPPORT HIS LIFE STYLE???
Unless, the parents want to continue to support him, he will be in for the shock of his life. A budget, what is that? |
Warren Dodge (Spiderman)
New member
Username: Spiderman
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:32 am: | |
Buy him a 944. They are better handling for novice drivers than a 911. He will still have the prestige of driving a Porsche. If power is the issue, get the 944 Turbo. When he is ready for a 911, make him buy it himself. I think it is a wonderful thing to be fortunate enough to give your son a car to drive, however, give him something that he can handle safely and responsibly. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 179
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
This is merely a parent trying to make themselves feel good about what they give to their children. It is also 100% counter-productive. At most, why "give" the teenager the car. Why can't it be the dad's car and the son "Earns" the privealge to drive it (grades, job, etc) .
Living and growing up in an affluent community, my high school parking lot looked like a car show.
I have seen this most commonly with "new" money. The parents buy the kids outlandish items so they can all brag and try to impress people around them.
The parents need to wake up, get a clue, and teach the kids some work ethics. I am a firm believer in: "You eat what you hunt". If I were the parent I would tell the son to go out and get a job so he can pay the insurance on his 1985 Honda Civic. |
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:00 am: | |
some good points made here. this issue has started to nag me as well with 3 kids, one of them already a confirmed motorhead (at age 4!). i am all for the earning part. but i guess it depends on what you want to emphasize.
i am the only child of a car nut. i grew up around interesting machinery and got to drive all sorts of stuff. but my first car (77 mgb) was earned by way of getting into a great university (and getting decent grades). thereafter, i was on my own (next car was a mercedes then a porsche). but now i wish my father had done it slightly differently, and this is an idea i have toyed with for my kids:
work at all the usual kid jobs (mowing lawns, washing cars, shoveling drives etc) to earn spending money.
earn money for grades, because this is a time consuming occupation which takes effort and should be remunerated, just like it does in the real world. and make the pay for grades much higher than the pay they might get for those other jobs.
enforce a savings plan whereby 10pct is reserved for charity (of their choice), then 30pct each for short/mid/long term savings.
then when they have passed my driving test (some form of skip barber type schooling), they can buy their own cars with the money earned and saved in the mid/long term savings.
that way they feel a greater responsibility and pride of ownership, and they get to choose what they want (with some form of approval by me of course). |
David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Junior Member
Username: Racerdj
Post Number: 137
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
My son is in the process of buying my ZO6. I told him I will control everything until he has paid for it. I know from experience he WILL appreciate the car to a greater deal if he has his own money in it. This way I get to drive it when I want to. I had to buy my first car and feel it was good training. |
BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bobd
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:53 am: | |
((( I thank my parents for not giving me all that I wanted and the skills to create my own future. )))
Glen C. Winters, I like your style. |
BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bobd
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:32 am: | |
Wow, you guys who paid for Porsches and BMWs when you were 16 certainly found better paying part-time jobs than I could find at the time. Either that or you mowed much larger lawns than me.
I worked hard too when I was young.... but I sure wasn't in a position to make purchases like that.
No, my kids will not be driving a 911 when they turn 16. As the Men's Warehouse guy says, "And I guarantee it". |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 181
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:24 am: | |
It's not about *giving* your kids crap -- DAN, G. PETERS -- it's about making them *earn* and respect the crap.
Anything more than a Civic is a luxury. Why does a 17 year old need (or deserve) leather, speed, ect...? All they may *need* is transportation to and from school and work.
911. Good grief.
Luke. |
noel smith (Noel)
Member
Username: Noel
Post Number: 255
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
Ken, I think it's a bad idea. Sometimes the hardest thing to is to say no. |
melo yelo (Meloyelo)
Junior Member
Username: Meloyelo
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
Ken,
When I was 17, I bought, yes me, I , a 1979 L82 Corvette. This was in 1982. I was a junior in high school. I paid 10k for it and made the payments myself. This was my second car. I drove it everyday to school and work and loved it. I drove it hard and repairs cost me quite a bit. Most of the repairs I did myself. It was a money pit but I would do it over again.
I never had any wrecks and only 1 speeding ticket in the 18 months I owned the car. I think the main problem with getting a kid a car like this is the street racing. Because you have a sports car, everyone with a little speed wants to race you. Everyone!!!!! On any given weekend night out in the Vette, I would get several race invitations. Its hard to say no with all your buddies around. That is where trouble starts. Its not the daily drive but how you control yourself when pushed.
Only you know the personality of your son. Use your best judgement. But I can tell you this, Daddy does not always know what goes on. I paid for my car myself, so I think that helps in the responsibility category. Here in Houston just last week, two street racers were injured and one died in a new Honda civic, I believe.
my |
Glen C Winters (Wildwarrior)
New member
Username: Wildwarrior
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 8:17 am: | |
Chris Parr has nailed it on the head.My first car in 1976 at age 16 was a 66 GTO 389 4 speed which I paid for in full, cleaning class rooms after school and playing gigs on week ends through local 238 in NY.The car is not at all the issue to me, it is earning it your self which is quite difficult when studies ,sports ect take up most of your time at age 17.That is a job in it self and I guess we reward are children in our own ways.For me it is hard to instill this in my children for most of us have created life styles far exceeding our wildest dreams I know I have. I thank my parents for not giving me all that I wanted and the skills to create my own future. |
Dan (Bobafett)
Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 539
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:20 am: | |
G.Peters - I'm with you 100%
--Dan |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 529
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:20 am: | |
Mike, great choice of cars, I love E24s and used one as my primary beginning of senior year...people never understood why I would drive her, they (my sister included) thought she was ugliest thing ever....now this was until a truck (way over loaded 80s pre-abs F250) plowed into the back of her at a red light..."Why did you do that?" "My brakes locked up." Thank God it was that car and not my baby E38.
I spent a year and a half to find another 82 633 (that I could afford), which i also payed for with my own money (it was only 2k).
Do I appreciate it more than one of my others? Not any more or less....the only thing I used her for is to teach my friends to drive manual; something I would never do with my NSX or 328...now she sits in pieces in my garage waiting mostly and slowly being put together.
...I am thinking of gutting her and making a Club racer of sorts, but that would be after i finish the interior transplant with my first 6 (who I still have albeit, 1/2 of, at friend's garage) since she had a better condition interior than my current 6er. |
nickm........ (Nickm)
Junior Member
Username: Nickm
Post Number: 229
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:19 am: | |
911's are also VERY small cars. Get in an accident and that front end can dissapear pretty quickly. Crunch! |
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member
Username: Pupz308
Post Number: 350
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:08 am: | |
A lot of good wisdom here.
Eight years ago, my dad pulled into the driveway on my 16th birthday with an '80 BMW 633CSi. Cheap (3k), heavy, built like a tank--literally. Not terribly fast.
Not fast, but that's not to say I didn't explore every limit of the car. I think it's natural, especially when young, to explore and push the limits, especially in cars--especially in your first car.
Thank god for the 633, that monster. Its limits were 110mph on the freeway and 0-60 in, oh, 8 seconds or thereabouts. I could push it all the way, hear the engine, and was able to handle it. I had reached the limit of the car, and that was that. I backed off.
But A Porsche 911? Hot car. But you have to realize that exploring this car's limits, even coming somewhat close to them, will be well more than any 17 year old can handle. And I assure you, this kid will push this car. He will.
Another point, like what Mitchell said: giving a fundamentally oversteering car to a first time driver is idoitic. He'll push it in a corner and lose the ass end. He'd be better of with a 308--seriously.
1995 Honda with airbags is the way to go here.
$.02.
|
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 98
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:57 pm: | |
This has been hashed before.In my case I have two sons 2&4. My 4 year old owns a kadet kart and a 50 cc dirt bike. I will buy the 2 year old the same toys big brother get's when he's ready. By the time they reach driving age they will have had 12 years of driving behind them. Will we buy them something cool and fast to drive, you bet. Why would I not ? Here son, I love you more than life itself but drive this piece of junk. Do you go to dinner and order a Kobe steak and make the kid eat a hot dog ? Life is hard teach your children how to invest ,compassion for those less fortunate, but if they have to work for a living for the rest of their lives why would you start them working while they are kids? In the end we as parents teach our kids in the manner we feel is best ,but making a kid suffer or get less than what you would give yourself baffles me. Lastly putting your supposed loved one in a ill handling ,poorly suspended , bad brake having econo junk car is smart how?
WFO |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 259
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 10:11 pm: | |
I see two separate issues here; car and family values.
I'd rather not comment on the family value issue as I don't appreciate other people telling me how to raise my children, but I will comment on the car issue.
Is this a first car for the young man? I would not consider this a practical 1st car for a 17 year old.
While an argument can be made for how 'safe' it is due to its heightened capabilities over a conventional automobile, it none the less is a sportscar, and being such, requires more driver control to operate safely.
I think that a first car should be a modern car with exceptional brakes, impact protection, and foregiving to driver error. This would allow them to aquire DRIVING EXPERIENCE safely.
A 911 Carrera is a pure sports car. Sportscars IMHO are designed for EXPERIENCED DRIVERS.
ps: I drive a 3.2 Carrera as my daily driver. Despite what many people here say about how 'slow' it is (150mph, 5.8sec 0-60) it is plenty fast enough to be leathal in the hands of an inexperienced driver. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 481
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 9:54 pm: | |
A 3.2 Carrera is a great car. They handle well, have good power but are not insanely fast, are very reliable and dont cost an arm and a leg to maintain.
DO send him to driving school. Get him involved in PCA activities. Make it very clear to him that the car is a priveledge and not a right. Speeding ticket, accident, poor grades, trouble at school, all of these equal no more P-car.
17 year old boys ARE going to speed and drive too fast. They may do it in a Ford Fiesta like I did.... or a Porsche. The P-car is more likely to take care of them, if they are taught how to drive it. Also, if you get him some good training and get him involved in track days he will have a valid avenue for his "need for speed" and will be less likely to drive too fast on the street.
One other provision I would place on him: no male passengers. He is not allowed to drive his friends around. Just too tempting to show the other kids what it can do... |
Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 9:43 pm: | |
did they make the good name for themselves, or was it already made for them? If i was in the position to live off my family's wealth, i would not want to. Sure it would be nice and i would be singing a different tune if i never had to work. However its alot more rewarding when you can afford a car because you are succesful from the effort YOU put in to get to that point. I would be willing to bet that very few people here live of their families wealth. Most everyone here busted their ass to get what they have. Its like my mom always says, "you get out of life what you put into it."
The kid should get a summer job and buy his own less expensive porsche in a few years and have little spending $, or he could have lots of spending $ and no porsche. This is why he shouldnt have a car bought for him. This way he will have to decide for himself wether he wants a car or money to spend. |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 177
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 9:41 pm: | |
No, it is, but that's been my experience. My friends with wealthy parents ofen have poor work ethics.
But c'mon Kenny, these internet geek discussions are never based on facts!
Luke. |
Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member
Username: Kennyh
Post Number: 849
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 9:11 pm: | |
Luke, thats a pretty big generalization. I can name numerous people on this board who are living off their families wealth yet have still made a good name for themselves. |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Junior Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 176
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 8:57 pm: | |
Actually, Chris, you're a jealous loser ...but wait ...you have an F40 ..how can that be???
Does not compute.
Spoiled = poor work ethic. Plain and simple.
Luke. |
Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40
Post Number: 603
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 8:26 pm: | |
Ok, my 2 cents worth.
When I was 15 dad gave me $500 to buy my first car, a 70 Triumph Spitfire. I paid $900.00 and worked cutting grass to pay it off.
By the time I was 16, I had traded the Spitfire for a TR6, it was $2,000. I worked 30 hours a week loading trucks to pay for it.
When I was 17 I bought a TR7 (hey I know, but it was cool in 1977) paid $5,000 for it, still loading trucks!
When I was 18 and a Senior in high school I bought a 74 L82 Vette, $6,400 working saturdays now!
5 months later, traded the vette, (still had the TR7)straight across for a 70 911T. It was slow but cool!
freshman year college (1979) I sold the TR7 and the 70 911 and bought a low mileage 74 911.
The moral of this story? The Porsche is not the problem, it is how you earned it. I worked hard, set goals, and made things happen.
Those values have stayed with me even today.
Some of my friends thought I was a rich kid for driving Vettes and Porsches as a senior in high school, I wasn't I just worked hard to make it happen.
Life has not changed much since high School!
Chris |
Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member
Username: Ferraristuff
Post Number: 419
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:30 pm: | |
DES,
>>>i've taken my Saturn into 30mph turns at close to 60 and i'm not stupid enough to let off the gas once i'm in the turn
Front-wheel-drive?
Jack |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 835
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
His dad could get him a 944 Turbo if he really want his son to get a Porsche.The handling is much "healthier" ...and its as fast ! |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 3857
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Tim, you know very little about me to speak with such a sharp tongue; i'd be willing to bet i was more responsible at 10 years old than you'll ever be; so if you'll kindly ease off my nut sack, it needs some breathing room. Thank you.
i've taken my Saturn into 30mph turns at close to 60 and i'm not stupid enough to let off the gas once i'm in the turn - i've driven more than a few cars and pushed many, VERY hard and never had a problem... Kenny's friend's son is taking a driving course, so i'm sure they'll cover that, anyway...
Judging by age is NOT acceptable and CAN be compared to judging by skin color; how can you justify agism...? |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 834
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Kenny , i love the 3.2 , i almost bought one last year but the Insurance was too much and i couldnt take it to my university..the car would get trashed there.Its an amazing car , very reliable , looks very good and fast enough to scare yourself. If i could i would buy one , but my university isnt Porsche friendly..
Driving it in bad weather wouldnt bother me as i love driving when its wet.Pretty scary but very exciting. |
Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member
Username: Ferraristuff
Post Number: 417
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Here's a nice Porsche for that boy:
Jack |
Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member
Username: Kennyh
Post Number: 848
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:19 pm: | |
Andrew, if you didnt' have to drive the Porsche in inclement weather, would it not be a great car? |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 831
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:17 pm: | |
I would also love a 911 3.2 .Got 2 accident with my Alfa because it was RWD and i was driving under rain/snow conditions. Now i learnt the hard way ( 1500 $ damage ) and i drive much slower when its wet . But i cant imagine what would have happened if instead of my Alfa i would have bought a 911 3.2...Sure it handles better than my alfa but its also much more faster.. |
Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member
Username: Kennyh
Post Number: 847
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:17 pm: | |
If the kid is responsible then it's not a big deal. Ken makes it seem like he is a good kid and is responsible- if he is responsible enough then its not a big deal.
Let 'em get the Porsche, if you could have one at 17, wouldn't you? |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
Say what you like, but I would have LOVED a 911 at 17. I think it's a case by case scenario; if your son is a dimwit with too big an ego, well, stuff him in a 3 cylinder Geo. If he's level headed, responsible, and is willing to take all the courses you require, and understands that his ownership is conditional upon his behavior an treatment of the car, then fine. Why not? If in a month he racks up 2 tickets, gets the car filthy, doesn't care for it, and treats like a disposable plastic toy then yank it. Personally, when I have a son, I'll get him a 90hp Ghia. Stylish. Nimble and mechanically simple. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 2921
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:13 pm: | |
DES, an 87 911 doesnt drive like a BMW 3 series. Try taking your fwd saturn into a 30mph corner at 60. When you start to turn and let off the gas, you will feel the back come out, and hen you will find your car wrapped around a phone pole. In a porsche, the same thing will happen, only a lot quicker, and be very hard to catch. All that weight in the back doesnt like to change direction.
Judging people by age is acceptable and cant be compared to judging based on skin color. Thats like saying that having a drinking age of 21 is equally ridiculous to making a law that you must be of a certian race to drink. Young people aren as responsible, period. Furthermore, based on your self-DEScribed driving style, i dont know where you get off thinking you are qualified to speak about responsibility. |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 830
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:05 pm: | |
DES , a 911 3.2 is a pretty fast car. 0-60 in 6sec or less is as fast as a BMW 3.0 or any Lexus. But the Porsche has the famous backpack feel that the Lexus and BMW dont.And it doesnt have any other electonic gizmos to replace your lack of experience ..If you go wrong with the 911 , it will spin ... |
David R. (Rodsky)
New member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:05 pm: | |
This is an all-around a bad idea. There are 2 issues 1) Safety and 2) Spoiling the kid. I actually dont think we should comment on the latter. Every parent has their own style. It is up to this kid's family to determine what they buy their kid and what affect it has on him.. I like Les Brun's approach the best - that would be they way I would handle it.
As far as safety is concerned.. if I got an 87 911 at 17, I may not be here today. I have owned one and they are tough to handle. You can and will lose the back end pretty easily. As a young male, you have too many hormones and too much peer pressure to potter around town. Tim N "This is a pretty bad idea. At least they are buying him a slow porsche". This car will still do 150MPH!! It does 0-60 in 6 seconds. It is not THAT slow. On top of that - no air bags etc. By having a Porsche, their will be pressure to drive fast and I dont think a 17 year old (or at least your typical one) is equipped to handle this car. |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 3854
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 7:01 pm: | |
Again, i agree with Kenny; i'm sure there's something i could do to my Saturn to give it 900 horsepower; would you still feel the same way if 17 year old so and so had a 'tricked out Saturn'...? i don't think so... Don't focus so much on the marque, remember it's an '87; i love Porsche and i think the marque, in general is TREMENDOUSLY underrated, but compare an '87 911 to a Lexus or a sport-packaged-3 series of today and the 911 will probably be just a picture in the rearviews of the others... Not saying it's still not fast, but you get my meaning...
i'm assuming not many of you have ever been judged prematurely or stereotypically, that you can sit here and assess someone you've never met and know nothing about... Didn't someone mention something about maturity...? Hmmm... |
Dan (Bobafett)
Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 530
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 6:59 pm: | |
Man - there are some jealous people here who should probably spend more time doing a better job raising their kids...
--Dan |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 829
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 6:55 pm: | |
Kenny , that Porsche is a 1970/1980 car , with no ABS , no ASR , no DSC , no airbags and the engine located behind the rear axle. A RWD car from the 80's can be tricky when its wet or when exiting a tight curve ...a 231 hp 1100kgs Porsche 911 is even more trickier . You dont drive a 911 , esp a pre 993 gen like you drive a Z3 3.0 .
|
Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member
Username: Kennyh
Post Number: 846
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 6:51 pm: | |
Again, the Porsche isn't THAT fast, a 330 BMW, a Subaru WRX, a Lexus IS300 etc all have similar performance and alot of kids have them. I think most of you guys are just making a big deal over the marque, not the car. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 3:27 pm: | |
poker casino poker 187 |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page