| Author | Message | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1132 Registered: 5-2001 |
Martin - I think we misunderstood each other about the time line. I dropped the car off for the engine work last Aug. The flood was 2 days ago. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1131 Registered: 5-2001 |
He got the car last Aug to do an engine swap. Basically he got to it when he could and I never really lit a fire under him to get the job done. It is difficult to find people to do this type of work around here and he was willing to do it. It was not a qiuck and easy job since we were having to fabricate some parts and so on. Mine was not the only car, I have a real close friend who lost both of his MR-2's. Basically his whole shop is a gone. There were probably 20 cars that were ruined - all but his cars since he was quick to get everybody else's cars off the 3 lifts and put his up there so no water could get to them. He was taken to the hospital by ambulance late yesterday with chest pains. Last I heard he was still in the hospital this afternoon. I hope will be fine but he still owes me. Heart attack or not he's not getting out of this one. Evidentally, FEMA documated the place with pictures. The fact that my car was damaged by the flood while there just cannot be in dispute. It was a big big mess for that town. I just left a place that said they would help me with the clean up. He is a reputable guy who has had a high-end car cleaning business here for 20 years. He even has a 84 Rabbit GTI that he won't get rid of like me. I'll keep everybody posted. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4547 Registered: 5-2001 |
Doc, if you plan on sueing him or going after damages in either way I WOULD NOT START WORKING ON THE CAR!!!!! You waited almost a year now by your own acount why start today. If you do the guy can come back and say that this was not damaged by him. I would send an adjuster or appraiser there BEFORE you remove the car out of his shop otherwise your defense gets weak! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2003 |
Tommy, that is precisley the insurance rip off/dilema. On that car your Comprhensive will cover ANY damage (including natural disasters). They will propbaly raise your rates. However, they will only pay you MARKET VALUE for the car. Unless of course you insured it for Agreed value (I would imagine you did not on your Scirroco, it would of course be prudent on any F-Car). | ||
| David W Burnett Jr (Dbdreams)
Junior Member Username: Dbdreams Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tommy, Sorry to hear about that and I wish you the best in finding a reasonable solution. I was wondering though, seeing how the most of the rain started during normal business hours while he should have been at work why didn't he just move the car? The guy sounds bogus so dont give up. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2277 Registered: 9-2001 |
While I believe he would be found to be responsible in an Alabama court, he would have an "Act of God" defense that I have seen work in some cases here in Georgia. In any event, I suspect that your car would be a total loss. That being the case you would be entitled to the "actual cash value" of the car regardless of any sentimental value you place on the car. I would use my own insurance and have them subrogate against the shop. If you insist on not using your own insurance, you can sue him in small claims court and see what happens. You should win and hopefully be able to collect any judgement awarded. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1129 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually getting the car repaired is not a problem. I am getting it today and beginning the process this weekend - and not by this guy. I am paying for it now. I do have ins. But it shouldn't be touched to cover this. Why should I risk a rate increase, especially having 5 cars with them? Basically I want to pursue any and all courses that will help remove some of the financial burden from me alone. I am not being told everything by this guy and it is certainly worth a few hours of attorney time to find out exactly what rights I have and what I am entitled to. I just need to know where to begin... | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 331 Registered: 12-2001 |
Dr. Tommy, I agree nearly 100% with my fellow attorrney Art Chambers - except for one point. I dont think I would want this guy to be involved with the car in any way after you get money from him. If he is giving you a hard time about the damage to the car (i.e. he is telling you he will not pay and you should "get over it") then he is not someone that I would do business with. Try to get the money from him and go somewhere else to get it repaired. He obviously does not want to claim any responsibility for the damage, so getting him to fix the car if you supply the parts is probably not going to amount to much. Plus, if he is bitter about having to do the work for free anyway because he thinks he is not responsible, then the attention he might give to your car would be suspect. One suggestion.... what about getting the parts and giving the car to a local high school or trade school shop class as a training tool? They might be happy to restore it if you supply the parts and then give it back to you once it is done. Just a thought. Good luck. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4545 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dr. Tommy, although I totally understand sentimental value, in this case it is prudent to just part with the car at this stage. Kind of like she died yesterday. To determine value you will have a tough time. You could use the estimate the shop gave you for the restauration and then use your own adjuster to determine value. The insurance co that will have to flip the bill is likely going to give you $ 500 and call it a day. Sentimental value is uninsurable unless you insure it yourself through Lloyds of London. Sorry for your loss.  | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1128 Registered: 5-2001 |
I really appreciate everyones input. Thanks. What about est. the value of my car? That's the second big hurdle I have to clear. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2003 |
The President, along with FEMA (I beleive) can declare a Natural Disaster Area. In that case Federal Funds are allocated to homeowners. I am not sure if A) this disaster was significant enough. B) If it were declared, your priorty may be quite low. C) If it would cover personal property in possession of a business. Hum?? | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 210 Registered: 4-2003 |
FEMA is the Federal Emergency Managment Agency. They determine what properties are located in a flood area. This is obtained from historical recoreds covering the last 100 years. Once the property has been determined to be in a flood zone, a specific "rating" is given to the property. Insurance companies will issue coverage on most ratings (in a small number of cases they will not). If there is a mortgage on the building the lender did a flood determination when underwriting the loan and would require flood insurance if the property was in a flood zone.If there is no mortgage then the Lessor (owner) or the Lessee (tenant) would not be required to carry flood insurance. Even if there was flood insurance, one would have to check the policy to see if it would cover personal, or in this case property associated with a business. In California, most people do not carry eartquake insurance as it is very expensive and for a long time there was a moritorium on new hazard insurance policies. If the ground shook and your house fell down and you did not have earthquake insurance, you were left out in the cold. If you carried comprhensive coverage on your policy then ANYTHING would be covered (car runs into you, tree falls on your car, vandalism, etc). I assume you do not have Comp. on your policy. If that is the case your best efforts are to ascertain if the shop owner has a blanket policy. Let's face it, insurance companies are not going to voluntarly give you information regarding coverage, it is encumbant on you to go after the shop owner. Then the question would be: assuming there is coverage and there turns out to be more than 1 policy, which company pays? That would be indifferent to you as you just want to be compensated. Sounds as if you will need to put some pressure on him as he claims you are SOL. | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 798 Registered: 11-2001 |
Don't know how it works in your state, but here in Florida the lender / homeowners insurance companies require flood insurance on all property situated in a designated flood prone area. They use the FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) FIRM (Flood Insurance Rate Maps) to determine what properties are located in these areas, and to what degree. FEMA is a Fed. Gov. Agency, and they are the true sole authority which dictates these areas...of course, that's another story  . If the lending / insurance / laws are the same there, then somebody (or several bodies) have known for quite some time the situation, and the severity of the situation. Here, property owners whose property is located in flood prone areas are required to purchase flood insurance. The rates are based on the type of flood prone area (severity), and the elevations of the buildings / lowest adjacent grades / basements / crawl spaces (etc.) vs. the published minimum flood prone elevation. I would hate to think that a mortgage company would ever provide a mortgage loan without assessing all the necessary risks, including flood insurance, to any business or homeowner -- to me this would be a case of negligence to some degree on all parties involved, especially the lender, broker, realtor, etc. Not knowing the specifics of the property in question, this is just an observation. With flooding, hurricanes, and the like becoming more commonplace, the issue of flood insurance has become a vital part of the mortgage process. Areas outside of flood prone areas are exempt; however, some owners purchase flood insurance at a small rate "just in case". Of course, this doesn't really solve your current dire circumstances Dr. Cosgrove....and I'm truly sorry for what has happened. I can only imagine what it would be like to have something like this happen to a special car that you've spent quite a bit of $$$ on, and have years of memories in. Hopefully, some of the attorneys here can chime in with some advice as to how to persue full compensation for damages / repairs to get it back to as new condition. As far as finding out information regarding the location of the subject property with relation to flood prone areas, I'd suggest either visiting the property appraiser's office at the local county courthouse and reviewing the FEMA FIRM maps there (they should have them up to date and on file for public record), or you could pay a visit to a local land surveyor's office as they should have them on file as well. Sorry to not be of much help here. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1536 Registered: 6-2001 |
He's responsible, just not insured. You can sue him and get a monetary judgement from him. I'd have local counsel look at his insurance policy to make sure that he didn't have coverage. A lot of times carriers will lie about the coverage to avoid liability. A basic problem is that you don't know his financial situation. If he is close to bankruptcy, then threats are useless. If, on the other hand, he thinks that he can survive and stay in business, he will have to deal with you. He was a bailee, and has an absolute duty to ensure that you property, while in his hands is not damaged in any way. If it were me, I'd (once you ascertain he is indeed uninsured, and doesn't have sufficient assets to adequately compensate you) offer him this deal: You supply the parts (which you already have) and he assembles the vehicle. Make sure there is a specific time for him to comply. Art | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 931 Registered: 5-2001 |
I believe flood ins is a federal program not issued by one's own ins co. Dr Tommy--Ask Art Chambers for advice-He's a savvy atty on the chat. | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 769 Registered: 5-2002 |
We could be wrong, but why wouldn't he want you to move your car unless he was going to get something out of it.. If his ins isn't going to cover your damage why do they need it there.. Kindly ask him for his ins info and put your own claim through. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1127 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ron - You're right. I am not taking his word for it. The fact that he won't move anything until the city looks at it tells me that it's presence is worth something. If so is that part of a relief fund check not MY money? | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1126 Registered: 5-2001 |
That sounds good except when me and my ins co start talking $$$. I bet they won't be so willing to help me when I refuse the $500 check they will try to fork over. | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 767 Registered: 5-2002 |
I see that you proudly mention this vehicle first in your profile. This shows you do have sentimental attachment to the car. If you had a pet in a pet kennel while away on a business trip and this happened, what would you do under these same exact conditions. If his insurance company wasn't going to cover this, let them tell you.. Don't take his word for it.. He may get a check to cover ever car in there and pocket the money.. I would file a claim, if possible, and wait for their turn down letter. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1107 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Does that mean that I have to give the car up to get the check? If so can I work a deal to buy it back cheap?" Not necessarily. Just 2 days ago, one of the guys that I work with had his wife's old 1987 Honda totaled out by his insurance company. A friend borrowed the car and hit some big piece of concrete on the side of the road. It broke a caliper, bent a wheel, crunched a fender etc. Not really a bad wreck. But would cost more to tow, buy parts for, repair, repaint than the $1200 they said it was worth. So they just paid him off for $1200. AND, they didn't even want the car. They just let him keep it. And he has the title. It just wasn't even worth the time, towing expenses, storage fees, etc, for the insurance company to even bother with. It was just a junky old car to them. Sounds like you could get your money and still keep the car if you talk nice to whatever insurance company that you have to deal with. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1106 Registered: 5-2002 |
"If he knew he was in a flood plane and this actually happened before, should he not at least gotten some type of ins to cover this problem in case it happened again?" I believe that an insurance company would not issue any flood insurance to anybody that they KNEW already lived in a flood plane. Since it's in a flood plane, they know it WILL eventually flood, so they won't take a chance on issueing flood insurance in those areas. It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN. A friend of mine lives near a 600 acre farmers field that is about 75 feet down the hill from his house in a very swanky part of town. But the 600 acre field can never be developed for housing because it is 75 feet lower, which puts it in the flood plane. And yes, every time it rains heavily, the entire field is under a foot of water. No insurance company would risk insuring any homes in such an area. (At least not at a premium rate that any normal person could afford.) | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1125 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have a comp policy on the car myself. My problem is dealing with getting it fixed. Like I said I have enough spare parts to practically build a new one. I feel I can strip the insides and hose it out good and go from there. I am more worried about that then the engine. The problem is the costs. I cannot do it all my self. I just cannot believe that he cannot be responsible for it to some degree. If the ins totals the car (which I have no doubt they will try to do) Does that mean that I have to give the car up to get the check? If so can I work a deal to buy it back cheap? I don't care about a salvage title since I never want to get rid of it anyway. If I refuse to allow a total can I just expect to get no money towards the restoration from anybody. I have no idea what to do. I'm thinking about one of those attornies you see on TV. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1237 Registered: 4-2002 |
One sure problem if the ins cos get involved: They WILL total the car. Even if you fix it, the title will show "Salvage" or "Rebuilt". I've seen this happen dozens of times. | ||
| Carl Roberts (Carl63_99)
Junior Member Username: Carl63_99 Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2001 |
Man, that sucks! First, just about any car can be restored, even after flood damage (see F40 thread). Most likely the entire electrical system will have to be tested/replaced, as well as all porous stuff, i.e. seat cushions and carpet. But, bottom line is that he IS responsible for your car when in his shop, insurance or not. You can take him to court for the damages, and use the money to continue your restoration. I would demand his insurance info and file a claim against it, so there is documentation that the car was flood damaged while under his care. Good luck- Carl | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 114 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tom, sorry to hear about your loss! Do you have insurance on your VW? I think that your insurance would cover damages if indeed the shops insurance won't come through. It might affect your rates, but at least you get something for your damaged automobile. I believe if you have receipts covering the money you have put into it, a sympathetic adjuster would take that into account. If all else fails, even though the shop has no insurance for this type of damage, I'm sure that the shops owner has liability insurance of some sort eg. umbrella policies........might have to get a good attorney to dwelve deeper. Good luck to you! | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1124 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not my Ferrari, Thank God. Yesterday we were flooded here in Alabama. Here's the story: I have a 80 model VW Scirocco that has enormous sentimental value to me (my first car). Over the past several years I have invested thousands in its restoration. It has been in the shop getting an engine swap since last Aug. (that's another story) Yesterday the shop was flooded and my car was completely under water. He has told me he has no insurance for this type of damage. I was told if the shop "burned down or we wrecked it on a test drive" it would have been covered. This morning he told me this has happened before and he is in a "flood plane". 1. Why would the shop ins not cover my loss? 2. If he knew he was in a flood plane and this actually happened before, should he not at least gotten some type of ins to cover this problem in case it happened again? 3. What is my car worth? A book value is probably $500-$800, if that. I had a great car. I can still fix it since I have another engine, car, seats, everything. I do not want a "total". I have thousands in it. He will not let me have the car until the county EMA (?) checks out the shop. I am wondering if this is for some type of state-supported compensation, then I should be entitled to part of the money if they need to keep my car in there for the total estimated damages, right? Basically I have been told by him that it is a total loss and I just need to forget it. No money nothing, since he "isn't covered" for this type of occurrence. I really need some advice here, guys. No one can imagine how bad I feel right now, especially in light of the possibility of recieving no compensation whether I keep the car or not. BUT I WANT MY CAR!! |