| Author | Message | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 481 Registered: 3-2001 |
Will, sure..I remember you. Glad to hear it was you driving the blue 360. I remember someone telling me that one of the 360's was moving pretty well. When I asked which one, I was told it was the blue one. The other 360's didn't 'go' too quick. Wonder if the problem laid with the cars?? Unfortunatly, even with new tires, brakes and perfect setup, I don't think I would be able to break 2:04. I think the quickest drivers in the 360 series were turning 1:58's....so that would preclude us from doing too much dicing. Toss several hundred pounds of lead in your passenger seat for me, ok? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just keep in mind, and I'm sure that you're aware of this... It won't be cheap. The only difference would be that the expense of racing would be a tax deduction. Even if you wanted sponsors to pick up the tab for the event I don't think you would be able to, given the poor attendance at these events. Since so little money would be raised, you would have to give it all away! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2002 |
I understand. Since my semi retirement I've done stuff for special olympics and women's breast cancer (lost my aunt to it). The breast cancer event was held in asia, but organizing these things is pretty standard, irrespective of what the cause or the location. The point of it being get as much money as possible to the charity. I worked for free in both counts and plan on doing more for the same rate. I would not feel right charging money for a fundraiser. The only benefit for other people who were organizing was free advertising for their companies on the banners, mailers, etc. Point is... Stickanddice is bored, and what better way to spend time than helping out?  | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2003 |
"If you're interested in running a race for charity shoot me an email. I have some experience organizing charity events. They have not been motorsport related, but I can't imagine that it would be too different." I very much appreciate the offer, I've wanted to do something like this for some time but, having thrown out the idea, need to think about whether a race weekend with a charitable purpose makes sense. The purpose might be better accomplished on a car by car basis, as has been done elsewhere, using a car run to promote a specific charity. What is very important to me is that every penny of every dollar raised go the designated charity; I have occasionally found skepticism about racing related charitable efforts, that they may be disguised means for funding racing efforts. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2002 |
Will H, If you're interested in running a race for charity shoot me an email. I have some experience organizing charity events. They have not been motorsport related, but I can't imagine that it would be too different. Cheers | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 662 Registered: 8-2001 |
Yep, it's ruinning my race career, but as my wife points out I may end up with more money in the end as a result. I figure the cost to send my three children to college will cancel out the cost to race. "You know how to make a small fortune in racing?.....Start with a large fortune." Jon | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2003 |
"The original 348 series was a true "gentleman race series" for true amateurs and looked like fun when I watched them." That's exactly what I had in mind, you said it better than I could have. Jon, it seems your family life is ruining your racing career. I understand, as I (very happily)serve as personal chauffeur and wardrobe financier to a Lacrosse playing 14 year old girl with a social life I can only envy. As my wife likes to say, there's a lot of money in racing - unfortunately, it's mostly ours. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 660 Registered: 8-2001 |
Will, Maybe I was a bit harsh on the Challenge series. There is some talent as I mentioned at the front, first 5 cars or so but it's the rest that have no talent. Unlike SCCA there is not a middle group to race with. You have the guys like Earle at the front running for example 2:07's at the Glen and then suddenly lap times move to the 2:15-2:25 region. I doesn't make for good racing if you aren't one of the top guys. I also don't like the Grand Am license which is a joke. $250 and a medical exam gets you a license, they might ask for a Skippy Certificate but I heard some folks didn't send them in and still got their license. I don't want to race with these types of folks. And then there are the guys who just plain take things too seriously and spend 100K cheating around the rules and bringing back up cars. This is not what amateur racing is about. The original 348 series was a true "gentleman race series" for true amateurs and looked like fun when I watched them. The 360 series looked like NASCAR revisited with all the carnage. If it were 100-200K (including car) I would say it's a good deal but 400-500K is simple price gouging by FNA. PCA is serious racing for half the cost, maybe a third at the top rung. I think the guys who really want to race and own a Ferrari go to SCCA or with the kind of Challenge dough go Grand Am. Doesn't mean I am right though about the demand, so if you can organize such an event I am interested as I am sure Matt is as well. There was talk of a 355/348 reunion at Lime Rock when the Ferrari Challenge series goes there this year. At first they wanted to do a race but arguing over what constituted a race license and who to let in killed it. Now it's a parade lap from my undestanding. Jon | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2003 |
Wow - I think it's fair to say that demand for a Ferrari club race series is ... underwhelming ... nonexistent? Matt - I'd love to have the opportunity to run with you - in fact, I shook your hand at the very end of the Glen event a week ago, I was the guy in the Suburban, towing an enclosed trailer, blue Challenge car running in Red. Great event, weather could have treated us better, needed a few more cars! Jon - Was hoping you'd join the conversation, and appreciate your comments. Still chuckling over your characterization of the Challenge series - doesn't get a lot of respect in this forum. Your comments about the Porsche experience are well taken, I raced in the PCA Club Racing program for a few years. Martin - Might be fun to do a one-off in the Challenge seres at the F1 event, but otherwise I'm not a player. My comment about a Ferrari race group appealing to a promoter was not really aimed at spectator value, rather the ability to find someone who would add such a group to their event. Your comment about classes I think is spot on, people always like to try to make the racing "fair" - meaning, my car wins! I guess my idea would be to say, we're keeping the rulebook short and sweet, just go out and run and be happy. I also agree with your comments about crash damage; I've had a couple of big crashes in fiberglass cars, and been back out the next weekend with relatively small expense. Probably not going to happen in a Ferrari. Finally, I hear what you're saying about cost-effective alternatives; if I wasn't planning to run a CSR car in SCCA (Zeus Challenger w/Atlantic engine), I'd probably look at Spec Miata, an incredible value, really. OK, what about a once a year event for charity, say in the Northeast? Jon, didn't you mention that an effort had been made to organize a one off? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4664 Registered: 5-2001 |
Further even if there would be the interest from some of us, the logistics are so bleek. You would have to put 10 different groups. 308 stock engine 308 modified 328 stock 328 modified 348 stock 348 modified and so on. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4663 Registered: 5-2001 |
Will H, what you describe is the Ferrari Challenge series. Since you own a 360 Challenge you can register and run with the F-Challenge for wheel to wheel contact. It will burn a $300,000 whole in you pocket but that is what racing Ferraris will do to you, hence not many others are willing to spend this kind of cash for a few days of wheel to wheel racing if they can get the same thrill out of a beat up Porsche or even your typical Miata or RX7 with some mods. Jon has a road racer. He has had Ferrari off-road experience and if you read his last topic on almost hitting the Porsche, well here would have gone $100,000 in a 355 Challenge car just for fun! Also if you look at the Challenge series and the spectators, the answer is no, you will not attract a big crowd. Especially not a paying crowd. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 480 Registered: 3-2001 |
Will...Jon did a thorough job in covering the variables. I have to agree with what he posted. I do however want to let you know where drivers like Jon and I hang out...and let it all hang out. The best events for race like conditions, under controlled conditions, are Group 52 (an invite only group, which is based at the Glen), Trackmasters, and the Red Run Group of the Empire State Region of the FCA (in that order). The reason for this is there is a smallish group of drivers who go to these events. We are comprised of Ferrari's, race trucks, and Porsches. It is all about a comfort level with who you run with. Last week at the Glen, there was this driver who wanted to dice, but we never ran with eachother before. When we came up to the bus stop, we both pulled back, as we don't 'know' each other, and how we historically have reacted in such a situation. Time spent on the track with others of similar abilities, will create a comfort level. Once this is established.....let it all hang out. So, in a circuitous way, this is the background on the bunch I run with, at the fore mentioned events. I'd love to have you join us this season, and after time....(and Jon returns from maternity duty - good luck pal!) you can 'club race' with this group. However...I still have not figured out what is more fun....the racing, or the b.s.'ing in the bar, about the racing, after the racing!! | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2003 |
Question: What is the 13/13 rule? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 655 Registered: 8-2001 |
Will, Matt is indeed the type of person you are looking for. There are about a dozen of us at FCA events that run pretty flatout. But as Matt indicated you have to trust and know the people you are running with to run wheel to wheel at a track event. Matt runs the Empire State Region and they allow some leeway with the rules in Red group which is almost entirely race cars and highly experienced drivers/racers. Unlike other regions, like Mid Atlantic, of which I belong to, Empire State Region and Matt in particular are very stringent about letting people into the Red group. I would venture to guess that most of Matt's Red group have at least a few years race experience and at a minimum 5+ years of track events. Matt's region is one of the few where you will see folks with fast cars such as Challenge cars running in lower run groups because their skills don't match the cars. I have run with several regions where folks showed up with Challenge cars and EXPECTED to be in Red run group despite their novice/intermediate abilities. It's not odd at an Empire State Region event to see 3 or 4 333SP's, F40 LM's, Porsche 962 and other prototypes, along with the odd F1 car. First time I showed up at the Glen three years ago I was signed up in Red but after seeing all the fast machinery and racers I correctly asked Matt to put me in Blue group. My take on Ferrari Club racing (or lack of). First off there are not enough Ferrari race cars around and it is much too expensive to take a street car and convert it. Taking say a 348 or 355 street car and then converting it to race would greatly diminsh its value, especially if it isn't done to Challenge specs. Also the 13/13 rule as Matt pointed out has it's limitations. In PCA club racing it seems to work in most classes but I have noticed in the past two or three years that the top classes where folks show up in custom built 150K cars and Porsche factory 993/996 GT3's that big wallets and big egos spawn short memories of the 13/13 rule. Second up, is the amount of people at FCA events that truely push their car. Not many! Matt's region may be an exception but most other's, even in Red group, most are not pushing it hard. You probably noticed this at the FOW event last month. I really don't think you could gt a big enough grid for more than one race or so which means running either with another marque or running a race at FCA track days. Lastly is of course cost. While there are guys in PCA that spend well over 100K for their cars, many run cars for one fifth that. Also PCA contains cars that can be made lethaly fast for much less money. A 944 Turbo can be made to go faster than a 355 C for about 40-50K. And if that engine blows up you can replace it for under 20K. A 355 motor is 35K easily and 360 C motor 40K. Same with gear boxes as Porsche boxes are less rare and can be rebuilt or bought for half the cost. Much of the upgrade/race parts for Porsche's are readily available. There are literally hundreds of race shops that make and produce race parts for everything from a 914 to a 996. The only race parts for Ferraris are Challenge parts or custom made, both very expensive. Bottom line is that for the money, racing a Ferrari costs a lot of dough and when you look at what you can race with PCA, SCCA, and other series you need to be a complete diehard to only want to race a Ferrari. Perfect example is the Challenge Series. A bunch of fat old men, many of whom can't race, and a total disregard for saftey. To run at the front of the pack it cost 400-500K (including car). There is no television exposure, the stand are empty (except for your relatives whom you forced to come along), and the probabability of getting throught first corner unhurt is about 50%. Don't get me wrong there are a few fast drivers who have professional talent (Kenton, Earle, a few others) but the other 2/3rds have no talent and would be hard pressed to run in Red group with Matt's region. The alternative as you know from runnning FM and FC is that for about the same money you can run in either pro series (FC or FM) and get good exposure on TV and race against future professionals. In fact for nearly one third the amount of the Challenge Series you can run in the Speed GT Touring Series which shows all it's races on TV, has a ton of fans at it's events and runs in conjunction with ALMS and Trans Am weekends. You can run Speed GT class for about the same as Challenge series and be racing against Randy pobst, Mike Galati, Derek Bell, Hans Stuch, Boris Said, and other hired guns and factory drivers. Getting back to club racing I just don't think the demand is there to be able to fill up big grids at seperate club race weekends just for Ferraris. Possibly in conjunction with track events but I think that might cause scheduling nightmares and also nullify insurance or at a minimum raise the cost substantially. Lasly is the cost I highlighted. While the top rungs of PCA and BMWCCA spend about the same running Porsche 996 GT Cup cars and retired E36 factory M3's, the lower rungs offer anyone the chance to race for as low as 10-20K. No way any Ferrari's would be able to race at the lower rungs to fill up the fields. Just my opinion, but it would be great to run the Challenge car in something other than SCCA where the 13/13 rule doesn't exist. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hello Matt, thanks for the reply. You are exactly the kind of person I am trying to reach. So far I've run my 360 Challenge in 2 events which I'd characterize as typical club driving events with restricted passing. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's just that the "fun" of such club events comes as much from the social and car-watching aspects as from the track driving - which can't be as fun as the harder running you describe. And, incidentally, please let me know where you're finding these events which allow running side by side into corners! I believe it's possible to structure a race series in which drivers run as you have described, with the risk level you already assume. Most of this comes from driver attitude; I know that, were I to run my 360C in such a series, if you really wanted a corner, you could have it. I have no desire to rub aluminum with anyone. Would there be some contact? Inevitable. But you also see incidents in club driving events, and the goal would be to keep the incident level as close to the club driving level as possible. Basically, you need a series run with a very, very tight hand, taking a hard look at car prep, &driver experience (and licensing). A gentleman racer, non-pro series. I have run in series where there is lots of contact, and series where there is none, and feel that I understand the difference between the venues. I think there are others out there who also appreciate this difference. I do not drive my 360C the way I drive my SCCA car. And where are you finding the opportunity to drive as hard as you describe? SCCA or track test days? Private track rentals? Most opportunities to drive our cars seem to come with strings attached, but perhaps I have just not yet discovered the best events. Matt, why wouldn't something like the series I envision - offering you the opportunity to run hard with good drivers in several venues - interest you? | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 479 Registered: 3-2001 |
Will, I run my 355 Challenge Car 35 or so days a summer. I run full out with many other drivers. We go nose to tail and side by side at all speeds and turns. We do not however...ever risk contact. We know who we run with, and how they will react. Lord knows that I don't want to rub fenders for the sole glory of winning that turn. If I ran a 'cheap, throw away' car.....no problem. As I'm sure you realize, there is no way to avoid contact during a real race when the heat is on. I will say this....if you are looking to sponsor someone, I will promise consistent top 5 finishes!! | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2003 |
<<so>> Mark - Motorcycle road racing? You're a better man than I am. Great stuff to watch, but I've never had the guts to try it. I generally agree with your recitation of the costs and risks. Ferrari club racing as I envision it would not be for everyone; in fact, it would appeal to a relatively small group. I run probably 10-15 SCCA races a year, with lots of other track time, and consider myself a hardcore, if aging and not terribly talented to begin with, racer. ISO like minded folks for casual occasional weekend hook-ups. I'm confident those folks exist; finding them may be difficult. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 507 Registered: 5-2002 |
Once apon a time I did quite a bit of motorcycle roadracing, and based on that experience I won�t get my highly modified, well below pampered street ferrari anywhere near a wheel to wheel race. The reasons are basically what have already been stated with the main one being cost. Contact rule or no, driving at the limits means contact will happen with all sorts of things and a repair goes everywhere from a few thousand to fix a scrape to a whole new car to fix a rollover. Tires alone are nearly $2000 per weekend. You need to get there, so you need to own a trailer ( figure $10K) and a truck to pull it (another 30-40K), maybe amortize it to $1000 per race weekend. You need to sleep, eat and buy gas, so at least another $500. So you�re looking at $3500 per weekend before anything goes wrong. When I was bike racing, over 4 seasons, it worked out that I needed to double the fixed expense number to get an accurate estimate that would include repairs, so $7000 per race in any ferrari, double it again if you want to race a high dollar model (F40, F50, �). It�s not a cheap game and as fun as it is, there is just no way I could afford it, heck, you can spend $10k per season just running a shifter cart or motorcycle (that�s exactly what I spent for each or the 4 years). I�ll have to stick to autocross. | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2003 |
I know there are racers out there, perhaps they are not FCHatters. What are you doing with those Challenge cars, or heavily modified street cars, that you wouldn't rather race wheel to wheel, in a series comprising a few races, with a strictly enforced 13-13 rule? I think the prospect of a race group full of Ferraris would prove appealing to promoters/organizers. How can I reach the relatively small number of owners who'd be interested in this? Jens - Quite expensive compared to the many amateur and semi-pro alternatives, I agree. I'd envision a "series" that would comprise just a very few races, reducing participant costs & wear and tear. Also, I'd envision a strictly enforced 13-13 rule, hoping to minimize contact. It would be very difficult to induce most owners to make the necessary modifications to convert a street car to a race eligible car - like you, I wouldn't do it, especially to that beautiful 348 you have. F club racing necesarily would be aimed at a fairly hard core racing enthusiast. DJ - No way to avoid that investment. I would be willing to try to take on such a task, although raw enthusiasm would be better replaced with experience in building such a program. Lee - "why do it right the first time, when you can first do it wrong three times" - that killed me, I have always followed your philosophy, without realizing that you are my guru! The Cobra looks like fun | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 653 Registered: 9-2001 |
Will, Sadly it�s not cheap to race Ferraris. Of course it�s not cheap to race at all but still Porsches or other cars can take much more abuse on the track and still are much, much cheaper to maintain. On the other hand most F car owner like mine really pamper their babies so I couldn�t stand it to ruin the car during racing. That�s the reason why I wouldn�t do it. Perhaps if I could afford another Ferrari as pure track car... Just my two cents... Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
New member Username: Godfather Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'd think its because the amount of effort and time its take to develop such a project. | ||
| Lee Hamner (Tennlee)
Junior Member Username: Tennlee Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2002 |
I race my FFR Cobra. The parts to repair it are available at NAPA. In my neck of the woods, if you walk into any parts place and ask for a Ferrari part, you are probably going to get a mix of laughs, BS stares, and rolled eyes. My Ferrari went to the cruise-in today...  I know, its not really fair to the Ferrari! | ||
| will h (Willh)
New member Username: Willh Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2003 |
I'm very new to the F Club scene, and I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I have to ask: why has a club racing program not developed in the Ferrari clubs? I can think of a number of reasons, of course: insurance costs, venue availability, insufficient number of members interested in such a program, no one willing to undertake the huge amount of work associated with organizing such a program, and so on. Still, I would think that a club racing program could have appeal throughout the community, the potential for substantial additional work for the dealers and independents, extra business for those who sell parts, and more quality track time for members. With a number of Challenge cars in the hands of folks not participating in the Challenge series, I wonder whether it might be time for the encouragement of a series? Thought about posting this in the Racing Fans section, but wanted wider exposure, sorry if OT. |