| Author | Message | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1699 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks Wayne, I read his description, and it does clear things up. Art | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1369 Registered: 10-2002 |
Art Both Wayne and Gerald are right but if you read Gerald's post you'll see that you are mistaken as I was until Gerald explained. This is a UNIQUE engine as are the heads on this engine (Flathead) and are not from a P car. The P car heads as Gerald has pointed out are quite different.  | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3678 Registered: 9-2001 |
Great info guys, thanks for all the insights | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1690 Registered: 6-2001 |
The racing prototypes had 3 valves per cylinder. It looks like they took the heads off one of the P cars. Wayne got it right. ARt | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 181 Registered: 6-2001 |
Judging from the split shape of each inlet manifold below the carbs in the ad's engine photo, there appear to be two inlet valves per cylinder, as opposed to the production car's single inlet valve. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1490 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>the story I have heard is that they thought this would produce a cleaner exhaust. << Uhhh...I'll buy cleaner exhaust with twin plugs, pretty hard to believe 6 carbs would have helped to that end, was there a 3 carb version? Agree it's a unique design which is what peaked my interest. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1678 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, I agree that 11001 is most likely the second prototype. As I stated, I guessed that SS's memory must've been failing him at the time that he was being questioned about it (by Winston?). Like I said, I have pictures that place it at the Ferrari factory in 1968. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, that brings up the question--if Hil Raab is right that S/N S/N 11795 was the third prototype and 11929 was the fourth prototype then which were the first and second prototypes if not 10287 and 11001? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim, the story I have heard is that they thought this would produce a cleaner exhaust. Remember it was as of 1 January 1968 that the EPA regulations went into effect, effectively closing the USA Ferrari market to all the models then in production. Apparently it didn't work! | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Daytona prototype that was converted to a Spyder was S/N 11929 and is identified as the 4th prototype by Hil Raab. Original color bianco polo (white). Shown at the 1968 Turin Auto Show. In Mar 1987 car was being offered in Europe as "Prototype Daytona Spyder" ex-Merzario. Factory telexes state "the car serial number 11929 is an original Daytona Coupe prototype." and (my translation from Italian) "Daytona ch. no. 11929: Unfortunately no official documents exist but it is our belief that this was a prototype which Ferrari probably consigned to Giunti or to Merzario." Car wound up in South Florida in the late 1980s and has been knocking around on the market on-and-off ever since. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1677 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald: In Winston Goodfellow's Forza article on s/n 11001 (Forza #10), he states that, "The two Sergios-Pininfarina and Scaglietti-are much more direct: While Scaglietti says he doesn't recall constructing the car, the main man in Turin flatly declares 'the Ferrari believed to be the second Daytona prototype is not the second prototype. Pininfarina did not build it, and it doesn't carry our badges.'" When I first read this, I assumed that Winston had interviewed both Sergios and was making that statement from first hand experience (regarding Scaglietti not recalling having built the car). After reading your post and re-reading Winston's statement, it's possible he might have only read the same thing elsewhere. It's also possible that Scaglietti's memory has since been jarred. Come to think of it, I've heard Scaglietti speak before and it's also likely that he didn't understand a word you and Chuck Jordan were saying. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1350 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gerald Thanks. Why do you think they tried this design? Best Jim | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2003 |
Here's the photo Wayne referred to. Actually it appeared in Hans Tanner's book "Ferrari".  | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim, This engine is NOT AT ALL like a P4 engine. A P4 engine has four camshafts BUT the angle between intake and exhaust valves is wide, the combustion chamber is in the cylinder head and the induction (in the P4 that's fuel injection) is between the camshafts. Therefore there are also four (4) camshaft covers, one for each camshaft. On the Type 243 engine the camhafts for each bank are quite close together because the engine is basically a "testa platta" or flathead with the combustion chamber in the top of the piston. So there are only two (2) camshaft covers, one for each bank of cylinders, and it covers both the intake and exhaust camshafts. Induction, in this case carburetors, is on the inside of the vee between the two banks of cylinders. So I repeat, I know of no other Ferrari engine that was a V-12 four cam "testa platta tre valvole" (flathead three valve). | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 919 Registered: 10-2001 |
Its a pleasure reading you guys !! Learning so much ! | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, I find it odd that you say Sergio Pininfarina denies having anything to do with S/N 11001, which was strictly a styling prototype built on a 275 GTB/4 base without any unusual mechanical features (i.e. the funny engine in S/N 10287). When the car was shown at the Meadow Brook Hall Concours d'Elegance a few years back I judged the class it was in along with former GM styling vp Chuck Jordan. We both commented that the car just didn't look as "right" as the the actual final design of the Daytonas. I heard Chuck ask Sergio (who was there as an honored guest) "did you have to see it in three dimensions to realize the style wasn't quite right?" Sergio just kinda sheepishly grinned as if to say "you got that right!" He certainly didn't disavow the car. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1348 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gerald Is this engine different than my 330P4 engine? Are the heads similar? What about the 67 F1 engines? Although the distributors are horizontal on that engine are the heads the same as the P4 engine? Are the blocks the same? Was this a racing block/heads they never used? Thanks Jim | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ferrari S/N 10287 has what I believe to be a unique example of this Ferrari engine. It was owned by Donald W. Y. Fong here in Atlanta in the early 1970s and I saw it there. Engine was designated a Tipo 243. Consisted of a Tipo 209 two-mount block (i.e. 330 GTC) casting with no serial number. Three valves per cylinder. Dual overhead cams but because of narrow valve angle (engine allegedly a "Heron-head" but I was not able to check this) there was only one cam cover per bank covering both camshafts. Dual ignition (i.e. two spark plugs per cylinder, 24 in all). Displacement 4380 cc, 81 x 71 mm bore & stroke, 9.1:1 compression. I have NEVER heard of ANY other Ferrari using this engine! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1341 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne,Wayne,Wayne, Several F cars used engines like this. The one I own has Lucas Mecanhical Injection... Best Jim | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1675 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV: Ferrari Market Letter Volume 21 Number 17 (August 17, 1996) has a photo of the tipo 243 engine out of the car and on display (with The Man himself standing alongside). I don't have the ability to scan and post it here at work (and wouldn't want to be sued by Gerald, anyway). Maybe Gerald can post it? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1674 Registered: 8-2002 |
THK: You're correct. 11001 was and is silver and is powered by a 275 GTB/4 engine. I have a photo of this car that was taken by a friend at the Ferrari factory in 1968. I can only guess that it was indeed built by Scaglietti and that SS's memory is just failing. BTW, my personal opinion: I like this car (11001) A LOT. I think that this is what the Daytona should have looked like. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 422 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, S/N 1101 was a silver car right? While 10287 had the engine you were talking about (making it a prototype engine too), 1101 had the 3.3L 275 engine in it. Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1484 Registered: 11-2002 |
HOLY COW BATMAN.... THAT IS SWEEEEEET!!! :-) thanks, Wayne | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1673 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV: I'm at work, but I don't think I have any at home, either. Here's the one lifted from that ad:  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1482 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>and is basically a 330 engine (tipo 209) with 3-valve, twin plug heads and dual ignition.<< Wayne, are there any good pics of the engine availible ?...sounds really neat & wild. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1672 Registered: 8-2002 |
A couple of interesting notes on this one: 1. The add states that the car has a "Ferrari 500 Superfast engine." In fact, it's a little bit more interesting than that. This engine is designated as the "tipo 243" and is basically a 330 engine (tipo 209) with 3-valve, twin plug heads and dual ignition. What makes this so interesting is that this is (as far as I know) the only car in existence with this unique engine type. 2. The ad also states that this car is "the one and only existing works Daytona prototype." That's debatable. Another prototype exists, s/n 11001, however both Sergio Pininfarina and Sergio Scaglietti deny having anything to do with the construction of this second prototype. Still, it was in existence and had been photographed as early as August 1968. Maybe Gerald knows more about how second car came to be? | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 84 Registered: 1-2002 |
That's very cool, although I agree that the pricing seems a bit high. How are prototypes typically priced? There was a later Daytona prototype on eBay a while back. Someone had converted it to a GTS. I think the guy wanted around $200k for it, which seemed unlikely. I vaguely remember in the case of the later Daytona that there was some comment that Ferrari intended to destroy it, but instead let it out as a gift to one of their F1 drivers. Is there any story along those lines for this car? | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 916 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dont know where the original post went , anyway.. http://www.carclassic.com/html/DE08.htm As important as it may be , i know where my 750 000$ would go...SWB please !! |