| Author | Message | ||
| Daniel B Reese MD (Dbr328gtb)
Junior Member Username: Dbr328gtb Post Number: 175 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, you are right, it is agood learning experience. I had many of the same issues with my 328 GTB and I corrected all the faults myself except the hood which needed professional help. I went from no awards my first time out at Reading to the Coppa Bella Macchina at Cavallino this year. So if you had the desire you could get your car to that level too. I dont see how you can judge new cars either. I judged Mondials at Reading and had a hard enough time with those (all 10 where either 3.2 or t 's). I too want to judge nationally someday so maybe we will be paired in 20-30 years! | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 894 Registered: 10-2001 |
Nika, you show the spirit in concours events that I was trying to articulate in my post that I found was lacking. To all you guys "stuck" judging late model, showroom clones: talk to the owners. Ask them what they might CHANGE to improve the car. It's a hell of a lot better way to find a deserving winner than looking for a water spot on a cam cover, huh? | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 924 Registered: 12-2001 |
OK...so I KNOW you guys are going to laugh at me but I judged a MOPAR show many years back. It was a Sunday at Limerock - a great show and the organiser asked me to judge. I went to each car - asked the owner questions like "what they wanted to still do to their car".....etc. I picked the car that not only was beautiful but the one the owner had a true passion for.....and I guess I was very lucky since I chose cars that were previous champions.....I chose fair and after the fact each winner came by to thank me......it's not that hard when you are car crazy  | ||
| Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Junior Member Username: Teenferrarifan Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2003 |
I can only imagine how nerve racking that must be rob. I was talking to ken ross at reading and he was judging 355's. He said they are essentially all brand new. Don't get me wrong I love looking at the new f-cars but when it comes down to judging how can you compare nearly identical rarely driven in some cases 5 year old cars. The older cars like the 275's, daytona's, and even TR have been around the block and in most cases needed work done to them at some point of their life instead of being the same as when it left the dealer with the window sticker glue still on the window. Erik | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 892 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have a twisted view of a concourse. As the owner of a 31 year old Lotus, I can tell you there's a lot on it that's not original. Why? Because I drive the damn thing almost every day! So I have electronic ignition, modern water pump, etc. but it LOOKS like an original car except for the SS headers. The paint shows well but is obviously not new which to me adds to the car, not detracts from it. If I ever entered a concourse though the only thing I could hope for would be 'people's choice' and I already lost THAT one to a brand new Esprit in the one show I was in. I didn't mind losing as much as it didn't lose to some of the cooler cars that were there, like a GT4, Muira, even an old Elan. They got skunked too. A new Esprit? Give me a break! | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1596 Registered: 1-2002 |
Like Rob, I was also a first time judge at this concorso this past weekend. However, I was assigned to the older V-12 & flat-12 groups. 5 cars (a 512 TR, a Euro Testarossa, a Daytona coupe, and two 1966 275 GTS's). In the V-12 group, the 2 275's were actually tied in our judging! Each had points deducted for different things. The tie-breaker came from our discovery that, when the silver one had been refreshed, the badges on each side behind the front wheel wells that say "Pininfarina" had been replaced with ones that say "Designo di Pininfarina"--a genuine part, but not one that was on 1966 275 GTS's. So, sometimes, these dilemmas happen even with the older, well-used cars! | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob - i don't envy you at all. I think the ideal range of cars to judge would be the 60s and 70s cars - old enough to need substantial time and attention to make/keep original, but standard enough options to know how it should be restored. I think the oldest cars (50s), esp. the racers, are hardest to judge - I've watched the judging of these at at least 4 Nationals - horrendous debates over what was original (IMHO most of these have been over-restored). The debates are intense because hundreds of thousands have been spent in the process. There aren't too may people who have 'personal knowledge' of what was done at the factory back then; Francois Sicard comes to mind - worked at Ferrari and now does restoration work. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2003 |
While this isn't the same, I always work as a judge in the local IPMS model contest each March. I can sympathaze with your Rob. Sometimes we look for the smallest imperfection in a model to make it 2nd and the other "perfect" one first place. Heck, sometimes we just have to agree that one "looks better" than the other one. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3662 Registered: 9-2001 |
I assume they won't judge euro cars when there is an american version - ie they judge boxers and 288 gtos and all the old cars | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4945 Registered: 12-2000 |
Martin, I agree, it's crazy and other stuff too, like FCA won't judge Euro cars. One thing though, when you have 10 perfect cars, the only thing you can differentiate the cars by is if they have orginal valve stems or license plate frame. Stupid, but two equal cars otherwise, you have to consider it. I didn't have too much fun with it, I have more fun at the muscle car shows where it's partcipant voting and each person can use whatever criteria they want. If you like a cars color, then vote for it. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3661 Registered: 9-2001 |
martin, did it has a fish on it ? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4683 Registered: 5-2001 |
I did some judging myself and see it as wrong to have any current production model entered in any concourse. If you want to see a 360 Spider go to the dealer showroom not a concourse. I would have acut off date of at least 10 years old to enter. Then weigh heavy on miles vs condition ratio. We had a 1985 Testarossa with 1200 miles entered. They were professional concourse attendees. Great. A 1200 Miles traillered, 18 year old Ferrari. Then they take off point for valve stem caps. Give me a f#cking break! What does that have to do with perservation? A freind of mine had a perfect Mondial T Convertible at Cavallino and won Platinum but had points deducted for a non stock license plate frame. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4943 Registered: 12-2000 |
I agree, we had over 30 Ferraris, but most were the late model cars. Only 4 cars were older than 1980. I was very disappointed about that, however, I understand as the big part of the event was all the driving, the concours was just a secondary event. One of the 275 GTS's did do all the driving events though, that's awesome! | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1189 Registered: 3-2001 |
I've always wondered how (or why??) people would enter new cars into a judged car show. It just seems ludicrous. Events like this are for older cars... not cars that are one or two years old with 2K miles??? Preparing a new car for a car show is pretty easy. Preparing a 10, 20 or 30+ year old car is a different story. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4941 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, this weekend I was talked into judging for the FCA South Central meet in San Antonio. I've never done it before, but since this is a life long passion, I might as well start. I could see myself in at least 40 years being a qualified judge.  Ken Ross warned me not to do the late models, but as a first time judge this is where I got stuck. 360's and 550's. What a nightmare! Most of the cars only had a couple thousand miles and one was even brand new. There was nothing really to differentiate the cars, so it came down to how original the car was. We always put the most original cars on top and then if they were all original (like most), then only thing going for us was how clean they were. In one class it really came down to a few water drops in the engine bay. I don't think this is fun at all for the judges or the participants, I believe like at most FCA events you shouldn't judge the late model cars. I learned much though by going over the official FCA scoring sheet many times over. That will teach me how to prepare for my own cars. I think overall I have a very nice 328 GTS and it was looking the best ever for this show. However, in hindsight my car has much going against it for a concours... plus sized tires, non original air caps, after market fog lights, after market interior switch for fog lights, cracked right side mirror, damaged side skirts, non original front bonnet shock, and minor evidence of where someone tried to close the front bonnet before releasing the original shock. Just details, but some of the competition in my class didn't have anything like that. I've even spent much time lately refinishing the wheels, new caps, and restoring/detailing the engine bay. It's my opinion for the 308/328/348 class it's to your advantage to have a GTB as they are rarer and being 100% original with still many miles is a bonus. As we were judging we gave "extra credit" to the well driven cars. BTW, thread with the event pics and my write up... http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/6532/237363.html?1053355337  |