| Author | Message | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 716 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bruno: What does this thread have to do with the TR $ slip? Any reasonable person would figure that this could happen to ANY Ferrari, or any car, with belts. Doing a search would prove this. Besides, If you are right, then you have one more thing to get the price down......since you state that you are looking for a TR. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1131 Registered: 5-2002 |
The belt breaking isnt startling to me. Needing a new engine does. Worse damage is bent valves and maybe a hole in piston. If it stays in the valves it shouldnt be to extreme. A new piston starts to get into it as the lower end must be opened. I have broke belts before and never did anything worse then bend valves. Tell your friend to get a written estimate as to whats wrong and shop it. Threads like this wont help the TR $ slip. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 713 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jeff: I think I have the answer to your question, as to why Ferrari belts can't last 100K miles. Many owners track their cars, while others love to live at the high RPM range. Both conditions have to have bad effects on the belts. Hence, Ferrari isn't taking any chances, because of the above owners; therefore, they state 30K mile changes. Possibly liability concerns? | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 292 Registered: 10-2002 |
Not much to say in defense of the belts as I hate them too. But chains add considerable weight, create heat, must be contained in a metal housing, require oil, and at times can add noise. Belts are a quick easy way to do the same thing without all the mechanical support systems that chains require. But you'd think that for the price these cars were new that a even a few thousand more dollars for a chain system would not have been a big deal to potential buyers. And also there is the endless debate on how often and what mileage belts should be changed. It's a roll of the dice apparently. Why are flat twelves so hard on the belts? Why can other engines go to near 100,000 miles before changing belts but not a Ferrari? | ||
| Nick (True)
New member Username: True Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mitch, I completely understand the physics and internal design of what it takes, but what I don't understand is why they would then use belts that need replacing often in an engine that must be removed to get the job done. All high compression honda engines that I'm familiar with (NSX, Integra) are interference designs, but their timing belt's are scheduled for 90,000 miles -- and can easily be replaced without pulling the engine.... My #1 point wasn't saying they designed a unique interference engine because they didn't know how to make a non-interference, but possibly made it a puzzle to work on (and often) that engine so it would steer Joe mechanic away from repairing it. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 672 Registered: 4-2002 |
"1. They designed it like that on purpose to keep it unique and limiting the amount of places that work on them. ($)" You cannot design a high compression high RPM engine that is interference free. High compression yeilds torque, valve overlap helps preserve high TQ to the HP peak, HP = TQ*RPM/5252. | ||
| Nick (True)
New member Username: True Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mike B, the only explantion is that they must have designed it like that on purpose! An interference engine that must have belt replaced often and engine must be removed to replace belts.....I can only think of 3 things. 1. They designed it like that on purpose to keep it unique and limiting the amount of places that work on them. ($) 2. To keep money coming in after the sale. (of course all car dealers want maintenance money as well $) 3. Poor engineering! I can't see it being a packaging issue as there are alternatives such as chain's...(Lamborghini) This are all just guesses...does anyone have any facts on TR or other engine design reasons? In any case, to me, it defies logic as well. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 667 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, I ment cam belts! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 558 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just to be sure - I sense a few of those posting on this thread may be confusing cam timing belts with standard alternator/AC belts. If I am mistaken, forgive me. If someone needs an explanation, ask. Jim S. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 665 Registered: 9-2001 |
Frank, Five years is quite a lot, IMO. My mechanic told me to change the belts at least every three years regardless of miles driven. Think the warranty book of the 348 even recommends belts changes every two years! Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2316 Registered: 9-2001 |
I just spoke with the sad TR owner and he said he had a major cam belt service approximately five years/35k miles ago. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Junior Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 199 Registered: 12-2002 |
I cannot for the life of me understand why Ferrari uses belts on an interference engine. I wonder how much the pistons will kiss the valves by? Maybe they could have used dished pistons to avoid it? If so, they would change a belt failure from a catastrophic engine-overhauling event to an inconvenience that needed rectified by a dealer. Or better yet, go with chains! I can't fathom the thought process of an engineer who has an interference engine, and knows accessibility is tough and change requires the engine to be removed, and then goes and specs or designs a belt for that particular component, KNOWING it will need $$$$ frequently to avoid catastropic failure. It seems to defy logic. What's the reasoning behind it? | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 669 Registered: 4-2002 |
"I don't know if 8 cylinders put more or less stress on the belts." Each camshaft on a V8 opens and closes the valves for 4 cylinders, so the force required to turn the camshaft is 'decidely lumpy'. Each camshaft on a V12 opens and closes the valves for 6 cylinders, so the force required to turn the camshaft is more even and less lumpy. On a V12 with 240 degree valve openings* and cosine shaped lobes the turning force on a V12 camshaft is not dependent upon oreentation (i.e. it is smooth). Each valve being opened is timed with a paired valve closing. The (unloaded) rotational acceleration rate of the crankshafts are similar (V8 to V12) So the tension levels in the belts should likewise be similar. Therefore, the V8 should cause more stress in the belts than do the V12s. *240 degree valve openings: modern cams are closer to 254 degrees opening at 0.050 lift but the turning force is still quite smooth. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 569 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am looking at a F512M that had service last year and this type of post scares me. I was hoping not have to worry about the belts for another 2 years or so.... would that be true? I thought it was 4-5 years for major; 3-4 if not as regularly driven/stored in winter. Thoughts? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1378 Registered: 10-2002 |
It is not a sound you'll quickly forget. It reminded me of a spoon trying to go thru a kitchen in sink disposal. It was up there with the time a rod bolt let go in my Lola and ventilated the block or when the Ak 47 rounds tore thru the Heuy I was riding in. Its only hours later back in the bar that you begin to calm down... | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 288 Registered: 10-2002 |
Lloyd you are spot on! I would say if your not sure when the belts were done, then do them as soon as you can. Also keep any chemicals and oils away from the belts. A belt that is clean and dry could still be suspect, but a belt that has been subjected to underhood liquids I would treat as an accident waiting to happen. I wish Ferrari had used a chain system! | ||
| Lloyd (Lloyd)
Junior Member Username: Lloyd Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am not a mechanic, but it is my understanding that you cannot rely on a visual inspection of the belts. I was consistently told this prior to taking the plunge and having the engine out belt replacement in my 512TR. This inability to detect failure in advance is what makes it necessary to change the belts on some type of schedule based on age/mileage. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any scientific study which sets forth the failure rate of the belts as miles and or age accrues. We are left with the guides stated in our owners manuals, with European manuals often providing a much longer life than their American equivalent, and the recommendations of Ferrari Dealers, who receive substantial income from belt replacements. Adding further complexity to this issue is my understanding that the belts on the newer cars are designed a little differently from the older belts, with newer belts having rounded teeth as opposed to the older flat teeth. While it was my understanding from prior threads on this issue that the rounded tooth belts should have a longer life expectancy, the dealers make no distinction in time and mileage change intervals for the two types of belts. Dealers also make no distinction between the 8 cylinder and 12 cylinder motors. I don't know if 8 cylinders put more or less stress on the belts. However, when one considers the consequences of catastrophic engine damage after a belt failure it is understandable that Dealers are conservative in making recommendations to their customers. If someone could come up with an accurate way to test these belts while they were on the engine, they could make a fortune. That is unless they were already in the business of replacing the belts or repairing the destroyed engines. | ||
| Luigi Nicoletti (2mmuch)
Junior Member Username: 2mmuch Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2002 |
What would be the best way to check the belts? What is normal ware look like? I bought my 87TR used and can't reach the own anymore. Don't know last time he had them done. I was planing on bring my car in this fall for belts and what ever else has to be done to it at that time. Reading this theard is making me think twice. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1281 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ah, I understand. I was thinking everything would just free spin...forgot about the valves! I had a timing chain slip on an old car of mine so it just ran bad, but didn't hit the valves on the pistons. That would do some serious damage and sound like hell I imagine! | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 285 Registered: 10-2002 |
To Jim Schad...the cam belts (or timing belts) control the camshafts/valves in relation to the crankshaft/pistons. The timing of events is critical and there is very very little room for error or variation. When a belt breaks the camshafts stop turning, and in-turn the valves stop opening and closing, at this point some valves are open and some are closed and everywhere in between. But the crankshaft/pistons continue to move, and there is a collision between open valves and the top of the pistons. I have not personally heard what it sounds like when this happens, and heaven forbid I ever do in my TR. But it must be traumatic for the driver to say the least. I hope this elementary explanation is clear. If not please feel free to shoot back any questions. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3689 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jim I am not expert but here is my explanation - the timing belt keeps the movement of the valves opening and closing "in time" with the movement of the pistons. Generally when the belt goes the engine does not immediately stop running - it continues to turn for a few more seconds - thus valves can stay open and pistons come crashing into them. This means both the top end and possible the bottom end will need serious work - i.e a new engine or major major overhaul | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4699 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'd say he needs a new car.... I have a TR for him  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1377 Registered: 10-2002 |
When the timing belt in my TR broke the warantee claim was for more than $40,000. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1279 Registered: 7-2002 |
so why does a belt breaking = I need a new engine? | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 496 Registered: 2-2001 |
It is very strange indeed. I wander if they changed the tensioner bearings when they did the job. I also wander how old were the new belts they put in. Age (shelf life) of brand new belts keeps popping up as an issue, although personally, I don't think it is. Did he get to see his old belts when the job was done? anything peculiar about their condition? Anyway, really sorry to hear this. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1371 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank My thoughts are with your friend. I drove my 308 85,000 miles and my TR 115,000 before it rusted away. The belts in my TR snapped at 6,000 under warentee but after that, with regular servicing they were fine. It's strange that they would go after 1 year. Strange Days... | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2314 Registered: 9-2001 |
I don't know the details yet but I understand that he had had a major service about a year ago. The TR is his only car and he drives it 15k miles a year or so rain, sleet or snow. I believe the TR had around 60k miles or so. He put over 100k miles on the 308 he owned before he got the TR. I will post once i find out additional info. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3686 Registered: 9-2001 |
thanks Doody, that will cost you a ride for me in your 355 or 550 when I am up in Mass next time | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1086 Registered: 11-2001 |
yes - please share the details, frank. * time since last belt service * miles since last belt service * is it a daily driver or a garage queen? * does he drive the bejeezus out of it or does he drive like a total woosie like TomD .... j/k!!! :-) doody. | ||
| DHutchison (Hutch308)
Member Username: Hutch308 Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2002 |
Is your friend ok? It must have scared the hell out of him when it happened. It sure scared me just reading it. Before I fire up my TR next time, I'll check the belts. | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 936 Registered: 9-2001 |
If he was having the car serviced at all, who was doing the work? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3684 Registered: 9-2001 |
what are the relative facts and circumtances? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2313 Registered: 9-2001 |
A friend of mine who is not on FC just had a cam belt break in his TR. He now needs a new engine. Another reason to be sure you have your major service done in a timely fashion AND to inspect the cam belts regularly. |