| Author | Message | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1178 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tate was pretty. I bet she looked great driving that car. Can you imagine seeing a cute blonde driving around town in a 550 nowdays? It would be about the same thing. I know I would want to meet her. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 179 Registered: 8-2001 |
The car I saw at the Barrett Jackson auction in 1988 (and indeed the pics which I have posted) was absolutely Polanski's car. There was thorough documentation presented at the auction. I saw hard copy myself, but did not photograph it. Unless the written documentation that I saw at the auction was fraudulent or forged, I can assure you the pics I have posted are Polanski's car. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1172 Registered: 5-2002 |
I believe that's what Jay indicated. But it would seem a reach of faith to say "That's Polanski's Ferrari" and yet not have any knowledge about where it was purchased. With a high dollar car like that, certainly there was some documentation that would anty up the proof about whether it was shipped by Polanski from Italy or purchased down the road from his house at Hollywood Sports Cars. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1176 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just to be sure; The pictures below at the auction are of the car that Polanski owned and Tate drove (at least believed to be). Is that correct? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1171 Registered: 5-2002 |
Right TomD. Just because we're talking high and mighty Ferraris doesn't mean that we can't ask questions and have doubt. I think the reason I am wary of "assuming" is because what it comes down to is that we are saying that Lindsay was WRONG about what happened in that Hollywood showroom in reference to the remarks concerning Polanski. Since none of us were there at the time, I think we should be more considerate of the person who actually WAS there, and not be so quick to write off his story. If we're going to start assuming, why not ASSUME that Polanski owned TWO Ferraris; one that he took delivery of in Italy and one that he bought at Hollywood Sports Cars. LOTS of celebrity high rollers have several cars. Does anybody have PROOF that the Ferrari that Polanski drove in Hollysood was a 275GTB or a 275GTB4? Does anybody have PROOF that he only owned ONE Ferrari at the time? Doesn't seem right to politely call Lindsay's story a lie without some proof. If the Ferrari had been present at the Cielo Drive murder house, then it would be an easy matter of police documentation. But according to available information, it was elsewhere. Do we have PROOF that Polanski actually shipped any Ferrari from Italy to California? Seems to me that WE are really jumping to conclusions about that "fact". But maybe I am being too much of a doubting Thomas. As we all know, the collector car world does not have any history of fraud or misrepresentation. Everything can be taken at face value without fear of inconsistancy. Everyone is honest and truthful. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3761 Registered: 9-2001 |
Arlie is our resident skeptic, tries to keep us honest  | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2003 |
Yes, WE have done a great deal of assuming. One of us assumed because Polanski was in the film business he was in Southern California in 1966 and 1967 and therefore assumed it made no sense for him to take delivery of a Ferrari in Italy when "he could have just walked into a Los Angeles dealership and order the car." And one of us assumed because Polanski had lived all of his life in Europe and was working in England in 1966 and 1967 (and didn't come to work in Hollywood until 1968) that it made no sense to believe he would have bought a 275 GTB at Hollywood Sport Cars in 1966 or ordered a 275 GTB/4 for delivery in Southern California in 1967, and further assumed it made perfectly good sense for him to have ordered a 275 GTB/4 for delivery in Europe. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 169 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here's a pic of the 365 GTB the same seller offered at the auction:  | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2001 |
At long last, here are my pics of this beautiful Ferrari, taken at the Barrett Jackson auction in 1988. I have noted that it sold for $385,000. The fellow putting something in the trunk in this first pic was the seller at the auction. I believe he also offered a 365GTB and 427 Cobra at the same event. Does anyone recognize this guy? Maybe he could help with our research (?)  I'm not very good at Photoshop, but I tried to zoom in on this fellow at a higher resolution...    This was without a doubt the most pristine 275GTB I have ever seen. It was spotless inside, outside, and underside. Does anyone know if it was restored prior to being offered?   | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1167 Registered: 5-2002 |
We're doing alot of assuming now, aren't we? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2003 |
And, of course it just occurred to me that Mark Lindsay's story about the salesman saying in 1966 that the 275 GTB had been sold to Polanski probably couldn't have happened. In 1966 Polanski was making films in England and his name was probably not very well known in Hollywood except within the movie industry. So at best, if his memory can be trusted on anything, sometime in 1966 Lindsay sat in a red 275 GTB at Hollywood Sport Cars, was told that car had been sold but another one could be ordered for him. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2003 |
Why did Polanski take delivery of his car in Italy when "he could have just walked into a Los Angeles dealership and order the car?" First of all I am not sure Polanski was even living in the USA at the time he got his 275 GTB/4. A quick look at a biography on the website states "in 1968 Polanski went to Hollywood where he easily gained the reputation with the intelligent psychological thriller Rosemary's Baby." But what is so unusual about taking European delivery of a car? Lots of Americans have done it. Don't Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and others offer this? Quite a few normal Americans took delivery of their Ferraris at the factory. Order the car here, go to Italy and take delivery, drive it around for a few weeks or more, then ship it home. Ever seen Italian "EE" plates? Those were temporary registrations for foreigners. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 166 Registered: 8-2001 |
Got the pics right here and will have them scanned and posted shortly... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1164 Registered: 5-2002 |
Back at the computer after a 3 day weekend. Amazing how this thread has taken off in multiple directions. But LWayne attempted to bring it back on target with his well placed questions. And my main question is this: Gerald said that Polanski took delivery of his 275GTB4 in Italy? Why in Italy? Was Polanski in Italy at the time? If he took delivery in Italy, then at SOME point in time it had to be shipped to the United States? Why go to all that trouble when he could have just walked into a Los Angeles dealership and order the car? As LWayne asked, "What car did Mark Lindsay see in that Hollywood showroom and did it ever go to Roman Polanski?" For all the side twists of this thread, I still don't think that we have the correct answers. But of course, that's par for the course in the obscure world of Ferrari documention. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1440 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Those of us who actually drove our cars, especially at night often found those GE landing lights came in handy on those dark roads. Those plexi covered Marschals look nice at the FCA concours but when you were racing a Cobra through the back roads at night they didn't help much. You did have to remember to drop down a gear before you switched them on as you could feel the alternator gasp as you forced it to fire up those big boys... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1730 Registered: 8-2002 |
Okay, maybe my use of the term "bastardized" was a slight exagerration. Still, what on earth was the purpose behind those "landing lights?" | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1563 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well Wayne, 25 yrs from when that pic was taken & fighting it out in the trenches (working on this stuff with my bare hands) and breathing exhaust fumes has dulled my memory...;-)...however, the car looks fine to me in that photo and doesn't look like some frankenstien the previous description alludes to imo. Maybe Mark figured if he owned it, he could choose the look? what a silly notion aye? ;-) | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1729 Registered: 8-2002 |
"it had no front bumpers, huge holes cut in front with landing lights crudely mounted, no front turn/side marker lights, funny looking spoiler & odd rear lights..." --Gerald "......doesn't fit the description I see posted here...other than Red/Black" --JRV JRV: With the exception of the side marker lights, everything looks to be as described and the odd rear lights can be seen on the Lindsay site. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1562 Registered: 11-2002 |
Photo of Mark Lidsays 275 circa 79-81:  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1728 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay, both of these cars were "show cars." 8815 made its public appearance at the 1966 Turin show. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 165 Registered: 8-2001 |
Wayne -- I don't know if this helps, but 8815, which is undoubtedly the car I saw at Barrett-Jackson in 1988 and painted red (I'll post pics as soon as I can get to a scanner) was marketed by the Barrett-Jackson people as having been built as a "Show Car". Could it be that this refers to the fact that 8815 was built from the remnants of 0830 (i.e. the Paris Show car)? It could be... I'll continue to research on my end to see if I can find any more specific references... | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks Gerald -- I'll go through my archives and see if I can find a pic of each one of these cars for posting! | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Mecom cars offered at the 1988 Barrett-Jackson auction were: S/N 0663/0999 GT, 250 GT Pinin Farina Spyder Competizione (modified to normal bodywork). S/N 6109 GT, 330 GT 2+2 rebodied by Michelotti. S/N 7979 GT, 330 GT 2+2 rebodied by Drogo. S/N 8815, the 365 P three-seater S/N 15965, 365 GTB/4-A rebodied by Michelotti | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 163 Registered: 8-2001 |
I get back to Chicago on Monday night, at which time I'll swing by the office and scan and post the 1988 pics of the Polanski 275GTB, 1967 Ferrari 365 P three seater, the TR replica, and the 330 GTO... I'm anxious to see if the 365P pics clear up any questions, and also want to find out if anyone recognizes some of the sellers with these cars. It will be fun to see if we can unlock any mysteries! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1554 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>And there was no Testa Rossa replica among the Mecom cars being sold. << The Testa Rossa replica that Forristal had didn't belong to Mecom...it belonged to James Floyd... Ahhhh the good ole days of OPM. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1553 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>sweater vest, and glasses... wonder if that's John Mecum or one of the bankers? << Definately not Mecom...if the guy with glasses has a handlebar moustache it would be Steve Forristal... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1552 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Wayne, when the ex-Mark Lindsay 275 GTB was purchased in May 1985 << I've got some photo's of Mark Lidsay's 275 from 79-80, while I was working on it for him ......doesn't fit the description I see posted here...other than Red/Black I'll dig out what I can still find and post if needed. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1726 Registered: 8-2002 |
Goodnight. I'm going home. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, answers to questions 1 through 6 may someday be discovered. Question 7 will remain a mystery for the ages! Goodnight! | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2003 |
There has never been any definitive proof that 0830 was the basis for 8971. 0830 was originally a 275 P Spider Drogo. On 25 May 1965 Bruno Deserti crashed it at the Monza track in a private Ferrari testing session and was killed in the resulting fire. For 0830 the factory says: "distrutta" and "manca tutto" which translates into "destroyed" and "everything missing". Folks who claim to have carefully inspected 8971 (I am not one of them) say they could find no evidence of chassis S/N 0830. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1725 Registered: 8-2002 |
Look how far off topic this thread has gone! All of this and we still don't know: 1. What car did Mark Lindsay see in that Hollywood showroom and did it ever go to Roman Polanski? 2. Is the "Manson family/destroyed Ferrari" story true and, if so, which car was it? 3. What silver Ferrari of Dennis Wilson's is Lindsay referring to? 4. Which Lusso did Dennis Wilson own and was this also the ex-Cooke car? 5. Was either 8815 or 8971 built on the remains of 0830? 6. Was 8815 ever white or did 8971 once have a similar spoiler? 7. Is Gerald telling the truth about not being "whacked out of his gourd" in the late 1960s, or is this just another "I didn't inhale" story? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, I know we are talking about show cars and not production cars but . . . the sequence for production cars went like this: Chassis sent to Pininfarina who built the body. Chassis and body then returned to Ferrari for installation of running gear. Why no exhaust pipes when Pininfarina took pictures? No running gear yet installed! Look through "Le Ferrari di Pininfarina" and notice there are a fair number of cars pictured without exhaust pipes. A quck glance show 0725, 0841, 0851, 0891, 1477 SA, 1517 SA (pp 228-229), 5951, 6001, 6701, 09439, 14277 (p. 287)--well, you get the picture! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 312 Registered: 12-2002 |
And what was used as the platform for 8815, if 0830 was indeed the genesis for 8971? Very interesting information, Gerald! Thanks for sharing. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1723 Registered: 8-2002 |
What's up with the missing exhaust pipes on (what we assume is) 8971 in the original PF archive photos? At the time of that thread, we thought that might point to the fact that the car photographed was perhaps nothing more than a non-running prototype. Just recently, however, I noticed the same was true of early PF photos of 250 PF Coupe s/n 0853. Any reason for this that you gentlemen can think of? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jay: "very well-dressed fellow in the car with suit, tie, sweater vest, and glasses... wonder if that's John Mecum or one of the bankers?" I believe that might have been Gerald McCormick, the representative of the bank. I don't recall Mecom being there. I was there as well, as I had been an advisor to McCormick, but your description doesn't fit me! And there was no Testa Rossa replica among the Mecom cars being sold. Others that I remember were a Michelotti-bodied Daytona spyder, a Series I PF Cabriolet, and probably others. Will research it tomorrow. It's getting too late here on the East Coast. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, I have read through the thread about the 365 P Tre Posti and find a great deal of contradictory info there. Here are what I believe are the basics. Both cars are identified in the Pininfarina records as being built for Agnelli. S/N 8815 is shown as "1a Avv. Agnelli" with start date of 13 Mar and completion date of 06 Aug 1966. S/N 8971 is shown as "2a Avv. Agnelli" with start date 30 Mar 1966 and completion 24 Sep 1966. I know that the book "Le Ferrari di Pininfarina calls S/N 8815 "the second version" and S/N 8971 was the first to make a public appearance, at Paris in 1966 with S/N 8815 not appearing until Turin in 1967. 8971 was originally white, I believe it has always been white, and it has been with Chinetti "forever". He purchased it via a cashiers check for $21,160 on 28 July 1967 "in full payment of 365 - P - #8971 as follows: $14,000 in full payment for the car, and the balance in payment of special tooling." I know that the car was "loaned" at various times to NART personnel such as the Marquis de Cuevas and George Arents so it was probably this car that Dr. Ibrahim saw with Buck Fulp. S/N 8815 has been a variety of colors, starting out as metallic gray metallic gray with black gutter stripe. Later black with red gutter stripe and then red with black gutter stripe. When Dave Kopf of California bought 8815 from Agnelli it was apparently still the original color and I have no record of it ever being white! By the way it has an electro-magnetic clutch because Agnelli had a weak left leg. So the white car with spoiler is still a mystery! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1722 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, any thoughts on the 8815/8971 thread? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jay, the 4-liter GTO sounds like the car that was offered around a lot in 1986 and 1987, finally at the Christie's auction in Monaco 26 May 1987. It was owned by Anthony A. Marnell, with Terry Bixler acting as his front man. Bixler fits your description . . . bald with a beard. It was not sold at that auction but shortly thereafter was sold to Switzerland. It is still in Switzerland. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2001 |
At that same auction in 1988 there was also a 1969 Ferrari 365 (or was it a 265?) 2+2 that had been rebodied as a Testarossa and had a Daytona V12 engine and transmission. It sold for $190,000. Was this car part of Mecom's dissolved collection as well I wonder? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1721 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sorry, gents. I've been busy with customers. Gerald, take a few minutes and read though this thread carefully. I'm curious to know what you think: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/228774.html Was the Paris show car 8815, 8971, or a mock-up? Why? | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 733 Registered: 4-2003 |
Can't find the Cooke / Wilson Ferrari either... Only references are that Cooke's car was "a small Ferrari" and that Wilson bought it after Cooke's death because he was a huge fan and would often play his music when driving the car. No type though yet and no S/N. Jack | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 161 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jack -- Good info... when the car went to auction in 1988 it was solid red so must have been repainted. It had various custom looking (probably one off pieces) accesories... running across the top of the engine cover in back there are two parallel chrome stripes running the length of the cover all the way up to the rear glass, which is slightly curved. The gas filler is a very large aluminum race looking unit. And of course this very large aluminum rear spoiler. Can't wait to post the pics... | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 731 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is what I have on 8815: 1967 365P 3-seat Berlinetta Special made for Gianni Agnelli (black with red stripes). Owned by G.E. Keeney (1975) prior to John Mecom. Jack | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 160 Registered: 8-2001 |
Gerald -- Thanks and yes I think you're right! There were a boatload of Ferraris at the auction that year, and I remember hearing talk about a Texan who was forced to liquidate his collection by the bank! That's gotta be it... so the car's in Japan now huh? Just sitting here talking to my dad about that car... we spent probably an hour looking at it that day. It was stunning. In my pics, there's a very well-dressed fellow in the car with suit, tie, sweater vest, and glasses... wonder if that's John Mecum or one of the bankers? | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 159 Registered: 8-2001 |
In the same batch of pics, I just found pics of a 1962 Ferrari GTO that I wrote the following on the back just after getting the pics developed (in I think 1988 or thereabouts): "1962 Ferrari 330 GTO, the owner rejected a bid of $1,250,000 saying he had a firm offer from another party for $1,400,000." The guy driving the car over the black is a bald fellow with a relatively slight build and beard/mustache. I seem to recall him being Swiss. Anyone have any idea who this car may belong to these days? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2003 |
Maybe I can beat Wayne on this one! Car was S/N 8815 and had been owned by John Mecom, Houston, TX. It was offered at the Jan 1988 Barrett-Jackson Auction, Scottsdale, AZ by Texas Commerce Bank, Houston, TX. Sold for high bid of $480,000. Mecom had forfeited his collection of Ferraris to the bank, in return they had "forgiven" a substantial loan he had. As of 1998 I heard the car was in Japan. There is another similar car, owned from new by Chinetti (originally Luigi, now Lou Jr.). It is S/N 8971. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, yes I have been through all the Lussos and cannot come up with the Sam Cooke / Dennis Wilson car. Other clues are sparse. Red? That's no help, and neither is silver. And I note from the Sam Cooke website that it was identified as a "1965 Ferrari" even though (A) he died in 1964 and (B) No lussos were made after July 1964. So I need a few more clues. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 158 Registered: 8-2001 |
By the way, as soon as I can get to a scanner, I'll post these pics! Also just found some pics of a beautiful 1967 Ferrari 365 P three seat show car (with driver seat in center and two passenger seats on either sides) that sold I believe as a NO RESERVE car at that same auction for $480,000. I had this funky looking aluminum spoiler on the rear, a large rear bonnet just below the rear bumper with tons of louvers on it, and these aluminum plates under the tail lights. It's unlike any other Ferrari I've ever seen, and just gorgeous. Wait'll you see it! It had Texas plates on it the day of the auction... wonder what ever became of it(??) (...hint hint Wayne) | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2001 |
Okay now I'm getting pretty excited. I'm at my parents' home for the weekend, which just happens to be where I have all my photo archives from the last 20 years of Barrett-Jackson auctions. Just dug out the pics from the 1988 auction and alas, I've got the pics of Polanski's 1967 Ferrari 274 GTB 4 cam. According to the notes I wrote at the auction in 1988, this car sold for $385,000. On the day of the auction, the car had the blue and yellow California personalized plates that said: "BY ENZO." I've got about 6-7 pics of the car, including interior and under hood shots. It was of course left hand drive, and had black leather seats, with a black leather cover over the tranny cover, and some light tan carpet mats on both sides that are covered in clear plastic. This might be another clue. I have written in my notes that the same fellow sold three cars that day: Polanski's 275 GTB, a red 365 GTB, and a red 427 Cobra. I have a pic of all 3 cars parked together, with the guy who sold them standing in one of them. I remember seeing him at many auctions, so I'm sure someone on this board will recognize him. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, speak for yourself. I did not spend a great deal of the 60s whacked out of my gourd "like everybody else"--only the early years! After marriage and two kids I switched to whisky and other legal substances. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1130 Registered: 12-2001 |
Maybe Mark Lindsay wasn't the only one who... Oh forget it! (sorry, i thought you guys were still speculating on which car was which). | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2003 |
We long ago identified Polanski's car. It was 275 GTB/4 S/N 09729. But discussion of Polanski's car led to discussion of Mark Lindsay's car, which we have also identified. It was S/N 08853. But discussion of Lindsay's car led to a discussion of Dennis Wilson's car, which was allegedly ex-Sam Cooke. So that's where we are now. Bit like coming in late to a movie, eh? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1128 Registered: 12-2001 |
So, i'm lost here. We were talking about Polanski's car, got sidetracked on Paul Revere and the Raiders and then, the Beach Boys. What if somebody simply contacted Polanski and asked about the car he owned? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1720 Registered: 8-2002 |
Can we assume that ML probably spent a great deal of the 60s whacked out of his gourd like everyone else? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, okay, Dennis Wilson had a Lusso and it certainly does not look silver in the picture (and Sam Cooke's car is described as red). So we are back to Mark Lindasy's statement: "But sometimes my adversary would be Dennis Wilson, who had a Ferrari identical to mine in every way except color -- his was silver; mine, of course, was Ferrari racing red. Even though our 'steeds' were evenly matched . . . " Did Wilson later own a silver 275 GTB? And evenly matched? I can't imagine a Lusso and a 275 GTB being evenly matched unless the two drivers' abilities are quite different! Or is Mark Lindsay's recollections of those days just another example of the flaws in oral history? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1719 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, can I assume you're going through your list of Lussos to try and identify which one it was? ('Cause that's what I'd be doing right now.) BTW, it doesn't appear to have the fake vent in the hood scoop. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1430 Registered: 10-2002 |
I wonder if that was the car the Family crashed? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, the car has not been in California since 1991. It currently belongs to a wealthy collector whose primary residence is in Arkansas but he keeps many of his cars in Florida. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1718 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here's an active link so you don't have to copy and paste: http://home.tiscalinet.de/sausidesign/break/pages/ringers/story.htm | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1717 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, it was a Lusso! Follow this link and scroll down the page to the last photo. http://home.tiscalinet.de/sausidesign/break/pages/ringers/story.htm | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1716 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, I can't believe I haven't seen that car around somewhere. Sounds like it's been here in CA for quite a while. Maybe the current owner is so ashamed of how bastardized it's become that he keeps it hidden! Edit: I'm referring to the Lindsay car here. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, Dennis Wilson's Ferrari may have been owned earlier by Sam Cooke but if so it wasn't a 275 GTB. Sam Cooke was shot and killed on December 11, 1964! Got any other leads on what car Dennis Wilson owned? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, when the ex-Mark Lindsay 275 GTB was purchased in May 1985 from European Motor Connection by my best friend, Stephen D. Barney of Foreign Cars Italia in Greensboro, NC, it had no front bumpers, huge holes cut in front with landing lights crudely mounted, no front turn/side marker lights, funny looking spoiler & odd rear lights as well as wrong motor. Steve never brought the car back east, but immediately wholesaled it in California. The next private owner had his mechanic make a new grille, clean up & correct the front, reshape the spoiler, fit Carello taillights, and bought six carbs & made up a manifold, and fitted 15" outside laced Borranis. Then in 1987 it was actually being offered as "one of five special Fantuzzi-built competizione versions." Later in 1987 it was at Ferrari of Los Gatos described as six-carb, steel body, outside-laced 15 front Borranis, special body with GTO rear lip, driving lights faired into the nose, no front bumpers. Fresh restoration. I believe it still matches that description. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1715 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jeff, it was a Daytona on the cover of the appropriately titled "Things We Like" album. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 311 Registered: 12-2002 |
Didn't someone (Jack Bruce?) do an album in the Sixties with a 275GTB on the cover? | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 119 Registered: 3-2002 |
Check your Yesterday and Today album. The story is that some of the original covers with the Beatles holding cut off baby doll heads had the new cover art glued over the old. Some people claim to have sucessfully removed the cover that we know to expose the cover that was not released. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1426 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM For some reason the original cover of one of the Beatles Albums had a photo montage of bloodied baby dolls. I'm not sure how or why this happened. A few still exist. Best Jim | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1126 Registered: 12-2001 |
That one i don't have to look up. "Saran Wrap." Dunno about Dead Babies Beatles records. Explain. As to Basement Tapes, authorized record of same was in major release in early seventies, Dylan, the Band, et. al. What mean you by a non-bootleg version? Did you know Al Grossman? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1419 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM Now for an easy one. What was the Fugs greatest or at least most memorable song? Best Jim PS Do you think my Manson/Smiley Smile is worth more than my Dead Babies Beatles album or my original non bootleg copy of the Basement Tapes? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1125 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jim, i had to look that up. Charley's song was "Cease to Exist." Let's not discuss whether this is copyright infringement... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1706 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie, thanks. Error corrected. As for Polanski's car: As Gerlad points out, Polanski's car was a 1967 275 GTB/4. The car that Lindsay saw in that Hollywood showroom in 1966 could not have been this car. Here's a hypothetical scenario: Polanski places a hold on the 275 only to cancel the sale when he learns that the new four-cam model is coming? Another (more likely) scenario is that Lindsay was simply told that the car was sold and only assumed later (after seeing Polanski in his GTB/4) that it was Polanski who had purchased the car that he wanted. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1159 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Lindsay's site states that Brian Wilson's Ferrari was silver." LWayne, I think you are getting your Beach Boys mixed up. Dennis Wilson was the one mixed up with the Mansons. Dennis was the wild one of the group and the only real surfer among the bunch. Married one of his cousins and went swimming with the fishes permanently quite a few years ago. There was a movie made about the Beach Boys a few years ago. I don't know how accurate it was, but I think the movie had Dennis driving a Ford Cobra when he first met Manson's girls. Of course they probably took liberties with the plot, but they all probably had several sports cars during their heyday. So how does anybody explain the discrepancy that Polanski's 275 was delivered to Italy and yet the 275 that Lindsay saw at Hollywood Sports Cars was NOT the Polanski car??? This would seem unrealistic. Why would Polanski buy a Ferrari in Italy and have it delivered to somewhere in Italy and THEN have it shipped to California? That would seem to be the only way to explain that the 275 seen by Lindsay at Hollywood Sports Cars was NOT the Polanski car. Seems highly unplausible. And why would the salesman TURN DOWN a sale to Lindsay by saying that the 275 in the showroom was unavailable because it had been sold to Polanski? This whole situation is getting cloudier. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1416 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM Ed Sanders. I saw them as well. Still have their album. His book was called "The Family" I think thats where I remember reading that they destroyed Dennis' Ferrari on the road to the Spann Ranch. The family was living with Dennis at the time at 14400 Sunset. Helter Skelter discribes them destroying his uninsured $21,000 MB but I think that may have his silver 275. Q what was the song that Manson wrote and the Beach Boys recorded? Before it was pulled and reissued a few copies of "Similey Smile" contained it... | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1123 Registered: 12-2001 |
For an excellent alternative to the standard Bugliosi book on the Tate-LaBianco murders, i recommend a book written shortly after they occurred, by none other than one of The Fugs (hey Art, remember them:- they played the Fillmore alot). If i recall, it is called The Family. Can't remember what it said about the cars; the book is in my office. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1703 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, all I know about Lindsay's custom job comes from looking at these photos: http://www.marklindsay.com/ferrari2.htm Sounds like you have more info? Interesting note: Lindsay's site states that Dennis Wilson's Ferrari was silver. Everywhere else says it was red, as does all of the info I find on Cooke. Gerald, do you know which car this was? I assume it was also a 275 GTB, as Lindsay states that it was identical to his car except for the color. S/N? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1415 Registered: 10-2002 |
Guys I'll try to look it up. This may be one of those myths although I do remember reading this somewhere. I think I also remember reading that the Family used his Roller to make garbage runs in. (Looking through dumpsters for food) Best Jim Found the ref. to the Roller P175 Helter Skelter Susan Atkins "the supermarkets all over LosAngeles throw away perfectly good food every day... but the food is still good and us girls used to go out and do 'garbage runs.'" to the astonishment of supermarket employees, the girls had driven up in Dennis Wilson's Rolls-Royce. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1702 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, the Charles Manson/Dennis Wilson/Ferrari story sounds vaguely familiar, but I'm not sure where I might of read it and don't remember any details. A quick web search turns up the fact that Dennis Wilson did own a red Ferrari during the time he was associating with Manson. The car had once belonged to Sam Cooke and was supposedly the car Cooke drove to the motel the night he was shot. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, very good! Have you ever read a description of how Mark Lindsay had the car customized? Jim, I'm sorry to say I have no idea what you're asking about with regards to a Ferrari that the Manson family destroyed. Can you elaborate a bit? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1158 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sorry for the late reply; just got to work and access to the computer. Here's the link to the Tate murder website. Be forewarned, the photographs are extremely gruesome and very, very saddening to think what those people went through in their final hours. But the site contains many facts that you probably never knew about. The details concerning the whole incident are worth the long read. Judging from the guestbook on the site, it must be one of the best concerning the subject. http://users.adelphia.net/~mansonmurders/index.htm Here is the specific link to the page that mentions the status of the Ferrari that night. http://users.adelphia.net/~mansonmurders/discovery.htm I wonder what ever happened to the red Camaro that was sitting in the garage that night. Certainly some car buff had the foresight to save it for posterity after it was returned to the rental company. I'm sure the police documentation of the entire crime scene would have listed its license plate and serial number. Wherever it is, I bet it would have a tale to tell if it could talk. The spooky thing about that website is the way the police documented EVERY detail. It's as if every little detail about that night was frozen in time forever. Extremely sad. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1413 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gerald/Wayne What is the serial # of the Ferrari that the Manson Family destroyed? Was it a 275GTB Nart Spyder that belonged to Dennis Wilson? Was this car ressurected? Best Jim | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1701 Registered: 8-2002 |
Nevermind. It's 08501. (I'm at work today, so research takes a little longer than normal!) | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1700 Registered: 8-2002 |
DOH! No extra points for me today. Anybody else here know the answer to that one? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne, you're right. Now for extra points on your trivia score . . . what S/N engine is in the car! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1699 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay, thanks for your kind words. Gerald, Lindsay's 275 was s/n 08853. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2001 |
I was at the Barrett-Jackson auction when this Ferrari went over the block. In fact, seeing this car is what sparked my love of Ferraris in 1988! I have numerous pictures of it stored away if anyone is interested in me posting some... it would take a few days for me to find and scan them. If memory serves, it had the blue/yellow Calif plates on it when it was at auction. I'm sure the folks at Barrett-Jackson could probably help in researching the whereabouts of this car if anyone is serious about continuing it's history past the auction. Wayne -- As usual your knowledge is impeccable and you are a real asset to this board. | ||
| Kristoffer Hansson (Maverick)
Junior Member Username: Maverick Post Number: 141 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ive seen mr Polanski live and he is a cool person. Never knew he had a 275gtb though. There is a really nice 275gtb (#6785) not far from where I live. Its a lovely car! Its was raced by Zwimpfer in the 60�s. It must be awesome to have a car with that historic. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3724 Registered: 9-2001 |
this was all before Polanski fled US authorities for having sex with a minor | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2003 |
But S/N 09729 cannot be the car that Mark Lindsay saw at Hollywood Sport Cars because 09729 was delivered new to Polanski in Italy. Also if you read Lindsay's story and look at the pictures of his Ferrari you can see that it is NOT a 275 GTB/4 but a 275 GTB and that apparently the incident took place in 1966, before the first 275 GTB/4 arrived in the USA. So now for the next trivia question . . . what was the serial number of Mark Lindsay's 275 GTB? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1698 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here's Mark Lindsay's site: http://www.marklindsay.com/ferrari.htm | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1697 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here's the site with the license plate reference: http://www.geocities.com/womenofhorror/eyedevilo.html | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1157 Registered: 5-2001 |
Horsefly - what is that website? | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1156 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wayne - how in the world do you know that? Not that I don't believe you (I do) it just seems such an amazing piece of Ferrari trivia and that Horsefly got his answer right off the bat! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1157 Registered: 5-2002 |
I also stumbled across another site that listed the license plate number at the time as VMP659. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1688 Registered: 8-2002 |
The story I have (unverified): The car (s/n 09729) was at Otto Zipper's shop in Santa Monica having a stereo installed at the time. After the murders, it was sold through Zipper's to Al Verbin of Palos Verdes, CA who owned the car until 1988 when it was sold at the Barrett-Jackson auction in Scottsdale, AZ. I don't know who has the car now. Maybe Gerald knows more? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1156 Registered: 5-2002 |
While surfing the web, I was stumbling from one bizarre web site to another and ended up on an extensive but gruesome website documenting the Tate/La Bianca murders committed by Manson and his "family". The morning that the murder victims were discovered by the housekeeper, it mentioned that Sharon Tate had been driving a rented red Camaro because Roman Polanski's Ferrari was being repaired. The Camaro was parked in the garage the night that the murders were committed. Where was the Ferrari at the time, and whatever became of it? I'm assuming that it was the 275GTB that I saw a mention of on Mark Lindsay's (Paul Revere and the Raiders) site. Lindsay talks about seeing the car at a Hollywood dealership showroom when the car was new. He tried to buy it, but was told that it was already sold to Polanski. That was a year or so before the murders. So I assume THAT car was owned by Polanski at the time of the murders. Any info on where the car was during that night in August 1969, and how it passed onto other hands? I searched the archives, but no real info; only brief mentions. |