| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1457 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie The line is rarely fine it's often blurry and there are VERY few 60's racecars that remain as they once were. To Mr. Ferrari old race cars were often worth less to him than the tax he'd have to pay if he didn't destroy them. People like David bought the remains and put them together. People like me bought those cars from David and put them together as we saw them in our youth. They are what they are and as Popeye was satisfied with that so am I... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1169 Registered: 5-2002 |
But now we're treading a fine line. The fiberglass bodies for Corvettes were not made in a GM plant. They were made by one of several out-of-house companies, much in the same manner that Ferrari bodies and frames were produced out-of-house. Only the final assembly was done in a Chevrolet plant. Does this mean that an aftermarket fiberglass Corvette body installed on an original Corvette frame will make an "original" Corvette? I don't think so. Does that mean that an aftermarket Ferrari frame (Piper's P4 frame) installed under an original Ferrari body will make an "original" Ferrari? I think you know MY answer. Come on guys, let's be honest and not lie to ourselves. The only way that any Ferrari, Corvette, or other automobile can be truely authentic is when the body, frame, and engine are all the original components that rolled off the factory assembly line. That's exactly why truely ORIGINAL cars are so rare and valuable. Frames rusted, bodys were wrecked, engines blew up. All the wishing, hoping, restamping, re-fabricating and re-welding won't bring back a frame or body or engine that is long gone. To try and say otherwise would be disrespectful to the TRUELY original cars that still maintain their three major orignial components: frame, body, and engine. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1454 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie The original P4 frames didn't roll out of the Ferrari Factory either. They were built in the same shop by the same people using the same blueprints that Piper used to make 0900. Much of what became a Ferrari in the sixities was made in small shops in the Modena area that Ferrari and others used. Carrol Shelby for example. Thats where the alum coupe bodies for the Daytona Cobra Coupes were made as well. (Except for the first one which was made by a subcontractor in Calif.) This is how race cars were made in those days. Corvettes weren't. They were made on production lines. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1166 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, it doesn't really upset me. I just constantly note the double standard. According to Gerald's magazine quote, Enzo authorized Piper to obtain the "drawings" and then he went to the "original people" and had the chassis made. That's all just a fancy way of not having to say "THIS IS NOT THE ORIGINAL CHASSIS" is it not??? If I obtained a copy of the P4 chassis drawings and made a duplicate chassis at my friend's welding shop, nobody would give my frame the slightest interest because it was not an original Ferrari frame. And according to Gerald's magazine quote, neither was Piper's frame because it never rolled out the Ferrari factory door either. Therefore, in my opinion, a double standard. Of course others will argue that since Piper's frame was produced by the "original people" that produced the original frame, then THAT is perfectly acceptable. So are they also saying that if I fly to Italy today and track down the "original people" and have them make me a P4 frame then that frame will ALSO be perfectly acceptable? I doubt that it would be because I am not "IN" the Ferrari community nearly enough. Again, not picking on the Ferrari marque, it happens all too often in the snobby Corvette world and others. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1453 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie When Mr. Ferrari sold David Piper the P4 parts, and gave David a copy of the P4 Blueprints it was his Co. He could do whatever he wanted to. As the P4 was no longer able to race in the Prototype class he was fine with David continuing to race P4's, which he did. As the history of David's car is well known and I certinally haven't hidden what I'm up to and neither of these cars are for sale nor are likely to be for sale what upsets you about this? David unlike others of us was and is an important part of Ferrari's history and Mr. Ferrari recognized that. I suspect that's why he sold David those parts some of which ended up being my car. Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1165 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'll fan the flame wars with more of my double standard observations. Consider: "David Piper pondered the fate of his P4 parts. He required only a chassis frame to knit them together. Mr. Ferrari was in an expansive mood one day and 'per nostra Piper' he provided copies of all P4-related drawings and gave permission for him to build another car. David had the chassis made by original people in Modena, and 'the Piper P4' emerged not so much as a replica car, more as a younger sister. Ferrari gave it the number '0900'." If I had a pile of 1957 fuel injected Corvette parts that was missing the frame, and I then contacted Chevrolet and had some people make a new frame, the car that emerged from the entire process would still be considered a REPLICA! And you could insert the word Dusenburg, Mustang, or any other marque instead. Why is it that in the collector car world that the "big shots" are always allowed to "slide" a little when in comes to the documentation of their cars. If JOE SMITH makes a frame to go under his Ferrari bodywork in his own back yard, the critics scoff and call it a replicar. If JOE MONEYBAGS hires an Italian frameworker to make a frame to go under HIS Ferrari bodywork, then "ALL HAIL THE CREATION". Not picking on Ferrari, but why doesn't everybody go by the same standards? How come nobody ever grants a "special case" to Joe Smith of Nowhere, USA when in comes to his collector car with shady lineage??? Once again, money and connections talk. It's good to be the King. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 100 Registered: 8-2002 |
OK, I'll offer myself up for flaming, because I am completely opposed to creating Ferrari sports racing replicas at the expense of a true product of Ferrari. Perhaps in the very narrow circumstance of a completely shredded Ferrari production car might it be OK to create another 250GTO replica - but even then, there are real GTEs, PF Coupes, etc. that need replacement parts. The 'parts bin' attitude that seems to accompany the older, 'less valuable' production Ferraris is disturbing. It's not like GTEs and other old 2+2s are lying around the local junkyard waiting to be made into replicas. By any standard, these cars are rare and getting rarer w/ each passing year. I won't re-post the statistics and guesstimates I provided on the "how many are left?" thread from last month save to say that there really aren't that many left of the older production cars. Because it almost never makes economic sense to restore an old 2+2, many merely 'ratty' cars are snatched for replicas instead of just real basket cases. Thank goodness that Tom Yang found his GTE instead of one of the replica shops - it was partially disassembled and had sat for years. Even if you assign $0 for his and Mr. Sicard's labor, he has probably still put more into the car than the market says it is worth. As Ferrari people, I think there we have a duty to preserve the cars that Ferrari made when the legend was being born. If you have the money to indulge in a replica, knock yourself out and fabricate your own chassis or buy one of the many replicas that are already out there. I think Mr. Roush will tell you that there are already three times as many replica 250GTOs as were actually made by Ferrari. Maybe I am as rabid on this topic as I am because there are two Ferraris in my family, one from 1955, the other 1968 - one is part of the Ferrari legend and one is not. But my feeling of stewardship goes as much with the 1968 2+2 (26th of 801) as it does with the 1955 race car (5th of 10); they are both original products of Ferrari and as long as I have anything to do with it, they will maintained as they were built. Bryan Phillips President & CEO 250GTE, 330 America, 330 2+2, 365 2+2 Preservation League (send money) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1438 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne As far as I know, I and others continue to, as Paul Simon said "Know what I know." When and if that changes I'll certianly let you know. Gerald As far as 0900 goes I agree that it is and deserves to be a special case. Best Jim | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1727 Registered: 8-2002 |
"Would you then say that if they're willing to make parts for a particular car on a factory invoice, and let one register it on their owners site that they recognize it as a legitimate car?" Come on, Jim. You're not only talking about 0900 here, are you? ;-) | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2003 |
I assume you mean 0900. I believe we can consider this as a special case. As Doug Nye wrote in Autosport, Dec 1981: "After losing his foot in the 'Le Mans' filming accident . . . David Piper pondered the fate of his P4 parts. He required only a chassis frame to knit them together. Mr. Ferrari was in an expansive mood one day and 'per nostra Piper' he provided copies of all P4-related drawings and gave permission for him to build another car. David had the chassis made by original people in Modena, and 'the Piper P4' emerged not so much as a replica car, more as a younger sister. Ferrari gave it the number '0900'." That's not quite the same as a Testa Rossa or GTO replica made out of an old 250 GTE 2+2! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1437 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gerald They certainly let David Piper race 9000 in their Historic Challenge. They proudly mention on the factory web site. Best Jim | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2003 |
If you have a legitimate Ferrari serial number, say for a 250 GTE 2+2, for your replica GTO then the Ferrari Owners Site doesn't know that the car has (A) a shortened wheelbase and highly modified chassis (B) a highly modified engine, converted from three to six carbs, a dry sump, type 130 cams, high compression pistons, etc. (C) bodywork that Scaglietti never saw, etc. In other words, very little that can be said to have been "original" for that serial number. But try to enter said replica GTO in the Ferrari Historic Challenge and see if they recognize it as a legitimate car! Do you have a specific instance in mind? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1436 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gerald Would you then say that if they're willing to make parts for a particular car on a factory invoice, and let one register it on their owners site that they recognize it as a legitemate car?  Best Jim | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2003 |
True, the majority of Ferrari enthusiasts may not find these cars objectionable. But Ferrari S.p.A. does! Just ask their legal eagles. They object to having their trademarked logos and insignia used on cars they did not manufacture, they consider the styling of a replica to be an infringement on their design rights, etc., etc. They have even tried to stop me and other publications from advertising them! Once, on a visit to the factory back in the 1980s, a Ferrari executive berated me for allowing this "porcheria" in my publication. That's their opinion of the cars . . . porcheria. Then, of course, there is the Ferrari Club of America's policy towards these cars. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1434 Registered: 10-2002 |
There's another thing you have to remember. Ferrari often did this to his own cars esp. race cars. Jim | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1771 Registered: 6-2001 |
And some of you guys are upset with this? It's a Ferrari. It started as a Ferrari, and someone upgraded it, kept it from the wrecking yard, turned it into something beautiful, and you're upset? Get a life. Great use for older, less valuable cars. Art | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 369 Registered: 4-2003 |
I saw it as well, when the Mille went through Napa.  | ||
| Michael Wogronic (Michael_fvm)
Junior Member Username: Michael_fvm Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2002 |
This car belonged to John Weinberger (owner of Continental Autosports). That is his Illinois dealer plate on the back. It is a very well built replica. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2772 Registered: 12-2000 |
Arlie, I agree totally, I'd take it in an instant... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1162 Registered: 5-2002 |
Come on guys. Don't tell me that you wouldn't love to drive around in a car like that even if it is a repro. That doesn't mean you would be willing to pay big money to do so, but it's still a nice car. Of course with that flimsy windshield, it would probably be a death trap in a rollover accident even with that head rest behind the driver. | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2002 |
Look like correct 250 GTE Borranis to me. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 993 Registered: 10-2001 |
the borranis arent correct for this car .. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1161 Registered: 5-2002 |
Or perhaps it got saved? Maybe they took a wrecked 250 hulk and rebodied it into a nice re-creation? Anybody who can build a body like that can't be anything but a dyed-in-the-wool car buff. Wish I had a re-creation like that. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 722 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>the original ID plate on the firewall (incorrect location)and was from either a 250GT/E or a PF Coupe Sniff.... Yet another beauty that got sacrificed..... :-( Jack | ||
| Brian Keegan (4redude)
Junior Member Username: 4redude Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2002 |
The pictures were taken at the start of the California Mille a few weeks ago. I took some photos there as well. I will look at them to see if I have any s/n info. IIRC it has a 12 cyl motor with six carbs & red cam covers. I believe it also had the original ID plate on the firewall (incorrect location)and was from either a 250GT/E or a PF Coupe. I suspect it to be a Cottingham replicar. | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4812 Registered: 8-2002 |
you'll be fine. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4262 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wha-...? Ok, now, i'm totally lost and i'm leaving in a minute and won't be back until Monday to find out what the hell this all means...! It's gonna drive me nuts the entire weekend...! NOOOOOOOO...! | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4811 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, Maybe in July you will see the light if it's back by then M | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4260 Registered: 8-2002 |
Um, ok... i'm definitely missing something here... A little help...? | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4810 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'd tell you but it's not on a trailer ;) | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1705 Registered: 8-2002 |
DES, I couldn't tell you because it's not on a trailer. ;-) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4258 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wayne, that's what i'd like to know... Does anyone know for sure, if this is a fake...? It looks so cool... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1704 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gee, Matt, what is that four-digit code in your post? | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4809 Registered: 8-2002 |
And a bad one at that.... Hi Gerald 0853 ;) | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2003 |
It's left hand drive. Therefore almost certainly a fake! | ||
| Boudewijn Berkhoff (Boudewijn)
New member Username: Boudewijn Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2003 |
I'm sort of a Ferrari digital serial number nut, above all in the older ones. It even gets worse if I don't have the type identification. Please let me know what type and S/N.    |