| Author | Message | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2002 |
Interesting, about the eBay Daytona. The buyer the first time may have had no feedback on eBay, but he's a fairly well known dealer in Northern CA. I spoke with him about a 365GTC/4 a year or so ago. I've been interested in the same sort of car-- nice driver, not concours but solid mechanically. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 548 Registered: 4-2002 |
FYI.... the "no reserve" Daytona needing cosmetic work but in otherwise claimed excellent condition and that supposedly sold on ebay for $100K+ is SURPRISE, Back on ebay. Same seller. Same ad. Lets see how high the shill can bid it this time... | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 540 Registered: 4-2002 |
Rich, Interesting situation. I was pretty much looking for the same sort of thing. I found nothing in that catagory. However, the car I bought is NOT a showcar. Its certainly immaculate, but a FCA national show would frown upon the ignition upgrades, fire suppression system, aftermarket floor mats..... A really solid mechanically but somewhat weak cosmetically car may be a tough find. ACtually the car Michael Sheehan has for sale right now could fall into that catagory (though I believe something is wrong with the rear suspension). It needs both doors painted and the interior is "nice" but not showcar. Then again Sheehan is asking $129K for the car. It would surprise me if it ends up selling for more than $110 - 115K. There was the cosmetically challenged car that supposedly sold on ebay last month. It was going to need paint, an interior restoration and lots of detailing. It supposedly ran good but had been sitting for years. It also supposedly sold for over $100K though the buyer had no feedback and given it was a no reserve auction my guess is it was a shill.... but who knows. I certainly did not feel that car was worth more than $85K. It could easily need $40K+ worth of work.... There does seem to be a preponderance of either VERY nice cars or real dogs and not lots in between. If you could find what your seeking, I would still bet on it going for around $100K if it really is mechanically excellent and has no rust. There are lots of guys who would like to do the cosmetic restoratoin themselves. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 233 Registered: 10-2001 |
Seems like Frank has reached a decission so can I "hijack" the thread for a second to ask a question? I'm wondering if there are solid driver level cars of the daytona or say dino 246gts out there for sale ever. Cars that have cosmetic needs but are still mechanically sound and can be enjoyed. A car you can drive on a 500 mile tour and lean on the fender or set your drink down on the hood without fear. Do such cars exist or has every car either had an extensive restoration already (and therefore priced accordingly) or so far gone mechanically as well that one should stay far away? I only ask because when the time comes for me to purchase a classic Ferrari, I think I'd prefer the kind of car I described to one that looks like a show car. I couldn't handle the stress of trying to keep it at 100 points, ha! Well, I could handle, and enjoy, the mechanical upkeep because I could do at least some myself but not the cosmetic stuff. | ||
| Frank Richard Noodleman (R_noodle)
New member Username: R_noodle Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thank you all for the expert, honest coaching. Obviously, several of you have "been there and done that". I think I will pass. Coachi, how much do you want for your car? | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 281 Registered: 5-2002 |
Speaking of Daytonas, I have a gorgeous red/black restored daytona that needs very little if anything...and I want less than 150 K for it. I really have been trying to trade it for a 550 Maranello, but if selling it would get me the money, I will then buy the 550. If you ask why sell it, I have 2 Daytonas. a blue one and a red one. I don't think having two is twice the fun. I have beautiful pictures and have posted some on another thread with Terry Springer. And yes Terry, you are absolutely right, I concur. | ||
| John Whelan (Fodee)
New member Username: Fodee Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2001 |
I too was interested in that car so I sent one of my guys to look at it. The guy that was selling it told me that he had multiple offers over $100K. I guess that that was not the case. I base the worth of any Daytona on the one that was restored by Automotive Perfection in Redwood City Calif. This is the cut top car that was advertised by Sheehan. After a 10 year restoration the car sold for about $85K less than a year ago. That car that you are looking at is a total money pit. The guy selling it is trying to prey on an uneducated buyer. I offered him $50K which is more than he paid at the estate sale that he got it from. I thought that he had the car sold already. My $50K offer still stands. I have no doubt that some poor guy will buy it. The worlds nicest Daytona sold for about $150K. He basically imples that for $50K more you can duplicate it. Tell him that you will give him the $150K after he restores it. You would be way ahead. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 608 Registered: 3-2002 |
ok, I hate to admit I know more about Daytona's than I should.............. I sold mine and I hated to sell it. Nothing is cheap about owning a Daytona. Paint, is at least $15,000. Interior? at least $10-12K Brakes? $5,000, suspension? $2,500 a corner. Engine" $25-35,000 and the list goes on. It depends on what you want.... If you want perfect and correct, you will drop at least a $100,000 plus the price of the car. Do the math, pay $145,000 and let the person who did the restoration take the hit. $100,000 is way too much, $75,000, maybe. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 536 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agreed Alex.... in some cases as you describe you can get wonderful cars at auction. Barrett Jackson has sold some well known, documented and proven cars. They also get very top dollar for them. They got $118K for an E-Type, a world record, earlier this year. Early last year they got $162K for such a Daytona. My point about auctions is more directed at the cheaper cars. People see a Daytona sell at auction in SML or anothe auction report for in the $90's. Those cars are NOT as you describe, absolute top examples. However, people then assume that excellent examples can be bought for this low price. Thats a bad assumption. I am simply pointing out that in my humble opinion, after much searching and research culminating in the actual purchase of an excellent car... nice Daytonas cannot be purchased for sub $110K unless its some really whacky situation. Then again maybe im wrong. | ||
| Alex Papas (Alexpapas)
New member Username: Alexpapas Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2003 |
The secret to buying at auctions is having knowledge of the either the car itself (who owned it previously etc) or know the restorer. I bought a very nice 74 C&F Dino at Barret Jackson in 01 and it came from a lengthy resotarion at a reputable dealer. An examination of some Key areas proved that the car was in excellent restored shape and the record of invoices for all of the restoration work was comprehensive. I bought the car for $25,000 less than the value of the restoration invoices (spent over a 5 year period). I'm delighted with the car and it's fun to own and drive. Last year I bought a 99point E-Type at BJ at full pop, but the car was done by one of the most respected Jag restorers in CA, Classic Showcase. The car subsequently proved itself winning 2nd place at the Palm Springs concours and scoring 99.41 pts at the Jag Nationals in Phoenix. Auctions can be an excellent source of well restored and relatively inexpensive cars. You just need to know what you want and how much it is worth to you.  | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 532 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would NEVER buy something like a Daytona at an auction. You can easily end up with a very shiny cosmetically excellent piece of crap with poor compression and a trashed transmission. Many auction cars are sold at auction for a reason. Also auctions can be very misleading. During the past year Barrett Jackson sold a Daytona for $162K and one sold at Gstaad for $92K. Who knows what conditions those car were truely in.... neither got a PPI. I have been watching the Daytona market intimately for a year. This means speaking at length with everyone who ones one, has bought one or has sold one I can find. I just bought a Daytona last week. My car is cosmetically and mechanically perfect. It has a full history with all books and records, fresh competition spec engine, new transaxle and brakes and came with an extra set of NOS leather seat covers. Its a solid 1- car on a SML scale. If such a car can be had for $90K.... I suggest you buy immediatly. If you find one and dont want to buy it, call me as I will just to flip it. Talk to Bill Badurski. He is rebuilding the engine on a Daytona that was purchased for less than $100K... it needs paint and an engine, plus other stuff. I believe pretty much any Daytona priced under $100K is going to be solidly in the "needy" catagory. 6 months ago, I thought differently and believed based on my reading of auction reports that great Daytonas can be had for $100K. Well.... try to find one. You will find that "great" is a very subjective term. Restoration projects are fun. Buy one for $90K or so.... spend $50K or so on the project... have a $130K car. Or just pay $130K and have a great car thats ready to drive right now and come out cheaper. Then again maybe you will find that old Grandmother who has the cherry Daytona in the garage that was only driven to church on sunday and is for sale dirt cheap... | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2001 |
You'll never see your investment in any restoration project unless you buy it dirt cheap; $100k does not qualify for a Daytona. That being said, I've been restoring a '72 Europa a couple years now and even though I have about twice in it what it's worth, it's in my budget and a labor of love. I know my car inside and out and it's one of the most reliable Europas there is. I'll never sell it so the costs to me for restoration don't matter. | ||
| Alex Papas (Alexpapas)
New member Username: Alexpapas Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2003 |
Rule number 1 is "LET THE OTHER IDIOT RESTORE IT!" Unless you're a pro with the facilities and resources to get parts at wholesale you will wind up $40 to $50K in the hole. I have bid on a couple of very well restored Daytonas, the most recent at the 2002 Barret Jackson in Scottsdale. The car eventually went for $115K and the general opinion was that it got all the money. A Daytona that has been sitting for 10 years has hidden issues like rust, that are not inexpensively addressed. Cars of that era coming out of Italy used cheap Russian steel which was not galvanized and prone to rusting. That's why there are very few intact Fiats, Alfas and Lancias from that time. If you really want a Daytona, check out the reputable auctions as well as finding a good exotic car broker to help your search for a professionaly restored one. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 572 Registered: 11-2002 |
William, for a car that has been sitting for 10 years the problem is going to be almost entirely mechanical. Time takes it's toll on the running gear. He is probably looking at some pretty heavy engine work, suspension work, transmission work, radiator/cooling system work, carb work, etc. A major service won't do you any good. You're treading in restoration ground here. I definitely agree with the Doc here. Cheers | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 185 Registered: 6-2001 |
As the Daytona market inches back up, you could approach a break-even point in the timeframe posted, but that's not a certainty. The bodywork described can be that "can of worms" as corrosion in doors, rockers, and quarter panels is common. I doubt that it needs the timing chain with the mileage given, so based on the mechanical description the costs would primarily be cosmetic. A "major service" on the Daytona is inexpensive by modern model standards. I'd go with the flow of advice here and recommend finding a finished one at a slightly higher price. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 274 Registered: 5-2002 |
I bought a daytona back in the late eightees, and it needed a complete cosmetic restoration. I took it to the best artist available...he kept it for a year, and the cosmetic restoration was superb, but just as I started to drive it, mechanical things that were in perfect shape needed attention. I say buy a car in good shape, spend 130,000 or whatever you were prepared to spend and enjoy the car. Many people, including myself, spent small fortunes restoring daytonas...when they were worth over 400,000. They are around...good luck. Read you had sold your 550 maranello. I was looking for a 550 to trade one of daytonas for. ( I have 2 daytonas). | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 800 Registered: 5-2001 |
100K is WAY too much for a car in that condition. My friend bought a Dayton a couple years ago for around 105k that was in terrific shape with around 45k miles on the clock and lot's of records and recent maintainence completed. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2002 |
When thinking restoration, calculate an accurate estimate and then times that figure by atleast 3 (probably 4 for a Ferrari). Sorry but that is the reality, even for my GTV project. What you gain from the process is huge pride of bringing a classic part of engineering history back to life  Pete | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, I'm going through a similar stage right now where I got rid of a modern car and am looking at getting a classic. The difference is that so far, I want to restore it, and also that I want to keep it. I agree with the previous posts in that the price is too high. I've been doing numbers on a car of similar condition (concours car that sat for waaaay too long) and you'll lose a lot of money (%age-wise). Do it for the love of the car and the joys it will bring you. Not for a toy to use well and pass on to someone else. Cheers | ||
| Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member Username: Dougm Post Number: 301 Registered: 2-2001 |
The "non-mechanical" fixes that you just described would put your fixes into the $20k+ price range. Unless you get the car painted at Maaco, then it will be @$11k for the non-mechanical issues. Also, between the engine service and the above listed issues, you probably won't be driving the car at all for 6 months plus while it's being fixed. | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 968 Registered: 9-2001 |
I understand some current Daytonas in good running condition are selling for 90K. If the car needs 25 & 30k of service, deduct that amount from the sale price. Good luck | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1131 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sounds high for the condition; if you were buying it simply to put that kind of money into it to drive, that's one thing; but since you are talking about flipping it in a year, i don't see you getting your money out of the car. If you are prepared to lose money, why not buy one that's already been redone, put some miles on it, and sell it for less than you paid for it; at least you will know what you're buying, and you won't be spending half of your ownership tenure visiting it at the shop. | ||
| Frank Richard Noodleman (R_noodle)
New member Username: R_noodle Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2002 |
I sold my 99 Euro 550 Maranello and want to get another car that I can buy, drive for 6-12 months on weekends and re-sell without totally losing my shirt. Here in the south San Francisco Bay Area I found a Euro Daytona with 56,000 kilometers that has been sitting in a rural garage for 10+ years. It has not had any major accidents. Mechanically it needs a major service (may also need a timing chain),A/C repair, wheel knock-offs, and a new back window. It runs strongly, sounds awesome and shifts well. Compression is good. A Ferrari mechanic I trust feels it is a solis car.Cosmetically it needs paint, re-upholstery of the seats and doors and re-do of the dash. I can buy the car for $100,000 and would need to put $25-30,000 into it unless I am kidding myself. What do you think? Am I crazy? Should I expect the problems that go with opening a "can of worms", or could this be a satisfying and financially sensible experience. |