| Author | Message | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 682 Registered: 4-2002 |
...and in the two white car photos that are 'supposedly the same car'(?) the rear light clusters look different, one set look to have more protrusion that the other. So with diff filler, diff vent grilles, diff badging, diff lights were the two pics from the same car? I personally think the shape looks poorly dimensioned at the rear, and thats without that gruesome spoiler that looks like it came from an old Opel Manta! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1468 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bowdewijn That's actually the wooden buck around which the body panels were formed! Best Jim | ||
| Boudewijn Berkhoff (Boudewijn)
New member Username: Boudewijn Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2003 |
Here is a picture of the mockup of the cars in question.  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1744 Registered: 8-2002 |
Michael, I believe you are a little confused. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe: 1. Both cars were apparently built with their intended destination being Gianni Agnelli of Fiat. 2. 8815 seems to have had the rear spoiler since before leaving the PF plant and certainly before it's public debut at the Turin Salon that year. 3. It was the other, non-bespoilered car (8971) that went to Ferari's US distributor, Luigi Chinetti. The car with the spoiler (8815) stayed with Mr. Agnelli in Italy. Boudewijn, thanks for posting the images of 8815 in blue. I think it is a much more fitting color for this design than the red was. | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2003 |
Yup, the blue one was the one I saw, I just wish I didn't have 30 rolls of film to develop or else I'd post the pictures I took of it. I distinctly remember it being blue, because I had to do a double take when I saw it. The car in the book I referenced my posts from is the white/non-wing car, so I didn't recognize it immediately. If I remember correctly, the original buyer who ordered both cars did not take delivery of the second (blue) car for some reason or another, so ferrari found a buyer for it in the states, but the buyer sent it back to have the massive wing fabricated and added because he felt the rear of the car became "unstable" at speed. This is how the blue car got its wing. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1742 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yes, I think all of these questions came up in our previous thread as well, though they were never really answered. Here's the link again: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/228774.html | ||
| Crawford White (Crawford)
New member Username: Crawford Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2003 |
... and looks like there are no vents on the rear deck lid, but they could just be washed out in the overexposed photo. I don't see the Ferrari logo, either. | ||
| Joop van der Meer (Jhjvdm)
New member Username: Jhjvdm Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2003 |
There's another issue that fascinates me: At the introduction chassis 8971 had the fuel cap in the left rear window, while today it's placed behind that. When - and why - was this change made? see attached pictures 'before' and 'after'   | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2003 |
Okay guys, ready for some more confusion on this? Look at the parking lights. On pictures of a white car there are two configurations--built into the body and as appendages above the bumpers. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 691 Registered: 4-2002 |
The more I look at this "big dino" the more I like it--the basic shape is just so right! {But loose the spoiler} | ||
| Boudewijn Berkhoff (Boudewijn)
New member Username: Boudewijn Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2003 |
I just found a second one.  | ||
| Boudewijn Berkhoff (Boudewijn)
New member Username: Boudewijn Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2003 |
And this is the blue 365 P. I found it in my picture collection.  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1741 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay, this is pretty much the way this car has appeared for some time. I don't think we'll be able to really extract any new information from these photos. As for the question regarding the missing exhaust in the PF archive shots, here's Gerald's response in the recent "Roman Polanski" thread: "Wayne, I know we are talking about show cars and not production cars but . . . the sequence for production cars went like this: Chassis sent to Pininfarina who built the body. Chassis and body then returned to Ferrari for installation of running gear. Why no exhaust pipes when Pininfarina took pictures? No running gear yet installed! Look through 'Le Ferrari di Pininfarina' and notice there are a fair number of cars pictured without exhaust pipes. A quck glance show 0725, 0841, 0851, 0891, 1477 SA, 1517 SA (pp 228-229), 5951, 6001, 6701, 09439, 14277 (p. 287)--well, you get the picture!" Michael says he's seen this car (8815) a year or two ago and that it was light blue. I don't think I've seen the car in this color yet. Has anyone else? Does anyone have photos? Gerald, the big mystery here seems to be all of the photos that exist of the white car with the large spoiler. They seem to have been taken early on in the car's existence, as it has "PROVA" plates on it. The earliest PF shots (though they are in B&W) clearly show the car in silver or something similar. Do you or anyone else here have images of the car (8815) at the Turin Salon in 1966? What color was it? | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 255 Registered: 8-2002 |
chinetti owns one and it was the car at california last august where the "3 sons" photo was taken. there was also an article in autoweek about 1 1/2 years ago about the new owner of a 365 p. he is based out of califonria and has a body shop (i think, but lord only knows). i think the only way to value this car is through auction and i don't think chinetti is selling anytime soon. i imagine the value of $2million comes form cavalino due to the sell of the non-chinetti car. the chinetti car is white. currently (or at least in the autoweek feature) the other car appeared light but may have been a very light powder blue. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2003 |
The guy in the driver's seat is Gerald McCormick who was employed by the Texas Commerce Bank. I knew him well. In 1988 he was part of our "team" in the Mille Miglia . . . my wife and I in our 1953 Tojeiro and Steve Barney / Gerald McCormick in Steve's M-B 300 SL Gullwing. The P in 365 P stood for Prototipo. As in the 365 P race cars. There were only the two cars built, this one (S/N 8815) which has been repainted several times and the white one (S/N 8971) which has been with Luigi Chinetti since 1967. The Pininfarina records designate these two cars as "Coupe Ferrari 3 Posti 'Le Mans' 365/P - Guida Centrale." | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1023 Registered: 10-2001 |
DES ,i think the P stands for Postocentrale , central driving position .. Isnt this car now worth around $2m? Or more ? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1737 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay, thanks for posting the pics. It's a little too late tonight for any comments on this one. It'll have to wait until tomorrow. Just a couple of quickies... Jay: I think Gerald cleared up the question about the missing exhaust in a recent thread. More on this tomorrow. Michael: "Is Wayne the one who owns the car now?" I wish. I have to go home, so that's all for now, gents. Good night! | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2003 |
Pininfarina exhibited the original car at the 1966 Paris Salon at its display, not Ferrari's. Also my book states that the chassis "shared the same characteristics as the 250 LM, including the fuel tank. The dimensions were increased, resulting in a wheelbase of 2600 mm instead of 2400. The steering wheel was placed in the middle with the help of two universal joints." The car had a 4.4 liter engine that had just been created for the large 365 California Cabriolet, and would later be used in the 365 GT 2+2. It had two camshafts and about 320 horsepower. There was no specific gearbox either, Ferrari just coupled a five-speed ZF gearbox to the large V-12. That's what the book says. It came way before the Dino, and actually the car was followed at the Turin Salon in '66 by the Dino Berlinetta GT, this car was the first prototype of the Dino 206 GT. | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2003 |
Pininfarina designed the car, and if anyone is wondering it is Mid-Engined. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 477 Registered: 6-2001 |
There was a white one at Cavallino this year, with no wing. possibly a repaint of the blue one? So, since this was essentially a Dino with the trunk removed to make room for the V-12 and the bulkhead moved back to make room up front for the 3 seats (by the way, I saw the interior, and only a dwarf could fit in the driver's seat) where does that now leave the Dino in the Ferrari hierarchy? If I stuff a V-12 into my trunk will i have a real Ferrari finally? | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2001 |
Wayne is our resident Ferrari historian... I'm sure he'll have some interesting info to share once he sees this thread... I can't wait! | ||
| Me Myself (Kid_enzoz)
New member Username: Kid_enzoz Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2003 |
Fanbloodytastic... excuse my ignorance but who designed the body? | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2003 |
The book has a great section on this "car", sorry, and Jay, is Wayne the one who owns the car now? Do you know if its the blue one I am referring to that I saw at Lime Rock? | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2003 |
Correction, it wasn't white, it was a light metallic powder blue. Sorry about that. Also, I was scanning my book collection, and the book Fantastic Ferraris by Antoine Prunet and Peter Vann has a great section on this book, although it is vague because the book is from 1988. Pages 188 through 193 if anyone has it. Great pics, but sorry I don't have a scanner. Also the book refers to the car as the Ferrari 365P Guida Centrale. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 170 Registered: 8-2001 |
Michael -- There's been some speculation that the other of these cars (there were two made... possibly three if we include a show car that probably never saw the road because it had no exhaust, but most likely two... am I right here Wayne?) may have once had a spoiler add to it... and it was a white car. Check out this thread for more details... http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/228774.html I'm hoping these new pics can help Wayne unravel any remaining mysteries... | ||
| Michael R. Bucci (Bb512)
New member Username: Bb512 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2003 |
I swear that I saw this car at Lime Rock a year or two ago, but it was painted white with the wing. It has to be the same one, because only one of the two had the wing on it, right? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4305 Registered: 8-2002 |
Undoubtedly, it's a gorgeous car, but am i the only one who's not too fond of the spoiler on the back...? Just wondering... Even still, it's gorgeous... What does the 'P' stand for...? Porsche...? (Ok, ok, so that wasn't funny, sorry...  ) Jay, thanks for posting, these are pretty cool pictures... What else have you got stashed in your automotive photo album...? | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 168 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here are my three pics of the 1967 Ferrari 365P Center Steering 3 seat show car, taken at the Barrett Jackson auction in 1988. It was sold at this event for $480,000... as noted in a previous thread, it most probably resides with a collector in Japan at this time. Anyway, I hope the details in these three pics might be of some help to Wayne in his research on the car. I can tell you it was one of the most unique Ferraris I have ever seen! You'll note the fellow in the driver's seat (between the two passenger seats!) was representing the seller (John Mecom) on this particular day. There has been some speculation whether he worked for the bank, or was directly associated with Mecom. Does anyone recognize him??  The lines on this car are absolutely gorgeous and the curved rear glass only enhances the appearance:   Wayne, are you able to gather any new info from these pics? |