| Author | Message | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
|
im going to step back from this because I am not as educated on this subject as mathew and martin - me, no i would never consider purchasing a grey market car. But i feel that the law is there for both parties to use equally and that neither party is wrong to use the law to enforce their position | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
Martin, GREAT RESEARCH !!!! GREAT RESPONSE !!!! Paul Sloan | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
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Very good Martin! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Metthew, you must have called a Ferrari dealer. Let me tell you where you have received wrong information: "Euro cars have no warranty as the cars have to be modified to meet US emissions and crash standards which voids the warranty" wrong, the 360 is a totally equal car. Emissions and crash tests meet both countries standards. They do not have to be modified! "FNA provides a 3 year unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty" when you buy a grey market car you know that you will NOT have any warranty. That is part of the down draw that grey market cars face! But that is your choice if you accept this or not. It does not negatively affect FNA in any way. Positively yes, more parts sold! "All Euro cars that come into the US must have a new odometer put in it which means your pristine 500 mile car could have thousands of actual miles already on it. For that reason all Euro cars have a branded title TMU(true miles unknown). " My understanding here is that this is not true for 360s. Ameristar may be able to verify that and give more info on this subject. It used to be the case back in the 80s with 308s. Even if so, that is a down draw, so what is FNA so concernt about then? "Most banks will not finance a European Ferrari(Euro cars have a different VIN#). " Although a different VIN, my bank has no problems financing a Euro car. Even so, that limits the value of a Euro car, what is FNA so concerned about then? My bank is BankUnited FSB. "Most insurance companies will not insure a European Ferrari(Euro cars have a different VIN#). " Called my insurance company and they have no probelms whatsoever with a Euro VIN. Again where is FNA's concern? "It is unclear if Euro cars have a different diagnostic system than US spec cars(Euro cars are not OBD2 compliant) as no dealer would clarify that issue" That I have heared as well. It is hard to believe but even if it is, that would make it a problem for the owner and lessen the value of the Euro-cars. Again, where is FNA's concern? "And the biggest reason is these low cost Euro cars are flooding the market and hurting the resale of US Spec cars. " According to most people on this board the Euro price will fall as hard as the US cars if not more. Not my believe but most others think so. If the cars are so bad from Europe and are so different , so hard to insure and finance nobody will buy them, making no market for these cars. That is what I mean with free trade. That is free trade. The probelm is, they are equal and that makes it possible for Importers to get the cars in and sell cars. I respect that you do not want to buy a Grey Market car. That is your right and with a lot of people on this board you will not own one, but that does not make an Importer a criminal. As for the crash tests. These test are made in Italy by Ferrari Spa, not Ferrari North America. The crash tests are homologized (did I spell that right?) and accepted for import. And when the market slows and the importers are gone FNA will not be holding the bad, they will be opening the bag and allow these owners to put money into their bag for parts and service these cars will need! Let me make this clear again: FNA can make as much money as they want but they shall not be allowed to lie in order to get rid of competition. That is what this is all about. You may not elect to buy a grey market car, that is fine, after all we still live in a free country. But you have the ability to chose due to importers like Ameristar! It is the choice that makes this country great! | ||
| Matthew (Ferrari512m)
|
To whom it may concern: Everyone here calls themselves an enthusiast but no one supports FNA the subsidiary of Ferrari SPA that has made it all possible to have Ferrari's in the USA. Do any of you honestly believe that this would even be a chat string if these gray market importers could not make $50,000 or more per car at almost no expense to them(because FNA has already gone to the expense to crash test and make sure US spec cars meet EPA and DOT standards). As soon as the 360 and 550 market slows down they will close up shop and be gone. In calling several dealers around the country(every single one of which supports the ban on Euro cars) I found that there are major differences between Euro and US Spec cars. The following is a list of potential problems I have found by making a few simple phone calls. Euro cars have no warranty as the cars have to be modified to meet US emissions and crash standards which voids the warranty. FNA provides a 3 year unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty. Does any gray market importer? All Euro cars that come into the US must have a new odometer put in it which means your pristine 500 mile car could have thousands of actual miles already on it. For that reason all Euro cars have a branded title TMU(true miles unknown). Most banks will not finance a European Ferrari(Euro cars have a different VIN#). . Most insurance companies will not insure a European Ferrari(Euro cars have a different VIN#). It is unclear if Euro cars have a different diagnostic system than US spec cars(Euro cars are not OBD2 compliant) as no dealer would clarify that issue. And the biggest reason is these low cost Euro cars are flooding the market and hurting the resale of US Spec cars. FNA has probably spent millions of dollars to bring these cars to the US by the time they are crash tested brought up to EPA, DOT standards not to mention that any factory importer must carry liability insurance and they do it for our driving pleasure. These importers are here for a quick buck and when the market slows and after they have stopped bringing in Euro cars FNA will be the ones left holding the bag for these cars not the importer that brought them in. I hope that the importers lose this case and I hope they lose big. FNA carries spare parts for my car and helped bring it to this country the right way. As far as markup that you are all talking about I could not find a single source or get a single dealer to tell me actual invoice because that info is not available anywhere so I question the validity of the claims that a Ferrari has 15% to 20% markup. Without FNA there would be almost no Ferrari's in the USA Matthew | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Okay, let me clear this up, I hope. Ferrari Spa has Distributors all over the world. People that have the official lizense to sell Ferrari Spa in their country. FerrariNA is the official importer for Ferrari Spa in the US. Ferrari NA has set up a dealer system which they supply their cars to. Pricing: Ferrari Spa has a price that they sell all their cars to their Distributors to. They can vary a little depending if the cars are different. As we all know (the evil of this discussion)all 360s are the same, so pricing will be the same. Lets put a ficticious number on this here: Ferrari Spa sells to FNA or Ferrari Germany of Ferrari Sweden for $ 100,000., Ferrari Germany then adds $ 10,000 for their Distributor Profit and the dealer make an additional 20% and the MSRP is set at $132,000 Ferrari NA sets their profit at $ 45,000 and the dealer makes 20% and the MSRP is set at $ 175,000. Why are Audis and Mercedes more expensive here than in Germany, where they are produced? - Becasue the extras you get with your standard car are all optional in Germany. In Germany you litterally have to pay extra for a steering wheel (just kidding). No A/C, No Automatic, No power this and that. Mostly German cars are made with smaller engines. But at the end of the day they too, just as Ferrari North America, use the currency exchange rate to make some extra money! Probably as bad as FNA, when you take into consideration that an Audi costs onle a fraction of an F-car. I must say I am very bias on this subject, having been a grey market importer myself. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
|
martin - i am learning here somewhat and somthings im not sure if i agree with - if ferrari spa is making the invoice price im ok with it - if ferrari na is making it then i see your point - a monopoly - but isnt this the general way imported cars are done in the US right or wrong ethically - i believe audi's are much cheaper outside of US - dont they go through like an AUDI USA then to all of the dealers - from the way i am understanding you there is basically one ferrari dealer in the USA with 35 offices Ferrari of ....... and that amistar and others are basically trying to be dealer # 2 in the USA but ferrari NA is trying to maintain their monopoly which is why amistar started this post to gain support for making sure a monopoly is not created. This is what im getting - if im off base let me know - one thing i've got to say is that there is some kind of regulatory price setting on the new 360 spiders for ferrari NA - that i am not seeing on the importers that i have seen advertise - but then again a used 360 spider at a fna dealership goes for just as much | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Paul; just to make this even more clear: FNA is the general importer. Your F-dealer has to place the order with FNA, which then turns the order over to Ferrari Spa. The percentages of profit are likely much higher: Estimate (maybe someone else can enlighten us here with better details): 10% the official Importer (FNA) 15% the Ferrari dealer (Ferrari of...) I agree with you on the fact that making a 220% profit is exorberant. Then, as long as there is somebody that is crazy enough to pay that.... . Again, I am not against FNA making profit or exploiting a situation where there are enough people that want the product and are willing to pay $175,000. It is the combination of inflating the prices and then trying to shut the market door down for others to allow them to make the same profits. Basically we have two discussions going on at the same time. One is about inflated prices and the other is about allowing others the opportunity to import into the same market. The freedom we have is taken once you allow one person or company to inflate a price for a particular good and then shut the door to all competitors. Give you a good example. EXXON oil will decide to find a way how to shut down all other oil comapnies from selling their gas products in the US market. All you can buy gas for your car from is EXXON. What will that do to the price of gas? When you buy crude oil is has to be refined. Lets say the US has a law that you can only import 93 gas into this country (our DOT safety laws). EXXON will use the same method to refine the crude to 93, that Paul Gasoline (Ameristar or any other importer)will do. But Exxon sais that ONLY EXXON gas is able to get 93 octane, nobody else will. (that is the current DOT fight). If EXXON (FNA) succeeds it will cut our freedom and will effect our lives. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
|
well martin you may have enlightend me - i was under the impression that FNA was a division of ferrari spa - so maybe i dont know all of the details - if you are correct - i believe that fna should invoice the car at the same percentage above cost as per your example germany or any other country - so if your saying tht in US dollars that you could buy a 360 spider for 145K at a 20% profit from an authorized ferrari dealer in germany yet FNA charges $ 175 a 35% profit - yes i agree with you 100% - but these US importers possibly buying fom germany for 145K and convering the cars and asking 315K 220% profit is much worse and i dont believe that you condone that either - but this is the way of the world - i believe both companies FNA and Amistar both have the right to be in business and sell vehicles and considering that they are competitors both parties have the right to use whatever legal means neccissary to get one up on the competion - if FNA is able to stop Amistar from getting 1 car into this country that may be one more sale for FNA - if Amistar is able to get another car into this country thats one more sale for them. For both companies - nobody ever said being in business was easy - | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
I think we have been beating this horse now for too long. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Paul, you missed that point. Ameristar does not produce cars, neither does FNA. FNA is a US corporation owned by an italien gentlemen that has the right to say they are the official Ferrari Importers. That much for the technical. Ferrari Spa is not hurt by Ameristar's action, as they have produced the car anyway and sold it. Ferrari NA is hurting, but becasue of their own greed. They can sell the 360 for $30K less in the US and make the same profits as the official Importer for Germany or Spain or Sweden or any other country. FNA keeps the prices inflated above what they have to be. Becasue of that I have no compasion for FNA and am very much offended that they take this action. Lying is NOT acceptable to maximize profits. I certainly hope that you do not lie in your business. After the initial hype the 360 Spider will drop down to $ 220K If FNA would price the car MSRP at where they should price it $ 145,000, lots more prople would not buy the car as an import for $80K more but wait for their car to come through FNA. This has nothing to do with exclusivity of the product and how much your car will gain your lose in value. In your thought the schoolyard bully is entitled to steal your kids lunch money if they can not defend themselves. That will keep lunch prices stable. Free enterprise is based on competitors offering the same product. ONe may lower the price over the other to sell more. This will create the best environment for the consumer. This is in the same term what FNA is trying to avoid. Do not let people know for how little they can get cars every place else and how much money they make on these cars, just on not adjusting their price to the exchange rate drop. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
|
i've got to agree with gene - what about fna's rights, they want to make a profit just like amistar - and someone mentioned competition - what competition - amistar doesnt manufacture automobiles as far as I know. And bad fna?? What does fna carge for a 360spider? STICKER - around 175k i think - Amistar please post what you would sell a 2001 Euro 360 spider for with less than 500 miles.---- 175K???????? ferrari wanting to keep availability low? good- anyone here want to see ferrari producing 5 million cars a year - I like low availability - my 2000 ford excursion lost about 12K in value in 12 months - my 98 355 spider was worth more than original sticker in 2000 - i like not loosing 25% when i drive it off the lot with a 130k car - anyone ever consider that maybe fna is looking out for us? New 2001 360 spider FNA ( if you can be patient - til they hand make it ) $ 175K - Importers - Ferrari Market letter Aug 25 2001 - All Euro cars =275,310,275,310,275,329, - Now who are the bad guys???????? Another thing about ferrari keeping production and availability down and prices up - if they didnt then what would be so special about them? We all know that there are cheaper cars even 1/3 the price of a ferrari that outperform them. But line those cars up next to a ferrari any day and people will take the ferrari. As far as using the laws go - they are available to both sides- ferrari only wants to send a certain amount of cars to a country due to the reasons listed above. And importers want to import easier because everyone they import they make a profit on. | ||
| www.ameristarcapitalwholesale.com (Ameristarcap)
|
Dear Martin J. Weiner M.D. Martin (miami 348ts) Paul Sloan Jim Hunter I just wanted to say thanks to all of you for your support, and to say once again, if they are not stopped now what is next? Many thanks and most sincerely, Thomas | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
Gene, When someone (or a company) takes a law that is meant for one thing and tries to use it for something other than it's direct intention then that is MANIPULATION (as defined in all dictionaries....."under disguise"..). While Thomas may be overly dramatic in his "call to arms" they (Ferrari)are trying to put him out of business which I hope you are never faced with. So much for this "Global economy" thing I keep hearing about. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Gene, always a pleasure to have a good conversation. Point well taken. It is a philosophical question. Yes, they have every right to act the way they do. Again, if it were my decision being FNA I would not take this approach. Just for the fact that there are people like me and Paul out there that will take these attempts very personal and cast a bad light on my company (FNA that is). "I never had sex with that woman, Mrs Levinski!" was that a lie or not? Can you convert the 360 Modena to US Specs?...are you going to lie or not! Here is a tactfull solution. The speedometer needs to be changed. Just do not sell the speedometer unless a VIN with US code is provided. Same on other "conversion" parts. That will make it necessary to manufacture parts through the importers and stop most of them. That is fair games! Good to have a discussion without you feeling personally attacked! | ||
| Gene B. Radcliffe - 308 GTS (Brcbank)
|
Paul, Your interpretation of the limited nature of the issue and correct answer to the question thus framed may be correct, but I do not see how FNA is "manipulating" anything. They are engaging in the give and take of regulatory decision-making. Your statement of the purpose of the law is correct, I just disagree with your conclusion that FNA in using that law is controlling the market any more than they are entitled to under the law. Your point that it relates to the sale of "used" cars v. new cars is well taken though, but are they really used if they come directly from a euro dealer are modified and then sold as if new? You are correct that my analysis is purely philosophical diatribe, ignore it if you will (don't I have anything better to do) but many of the comments have been just that: "CALL TO ARMS" "freedom hanging in the balance" "free trade and private property right" "lives and highway safety concerns of millions upon millions of American(s)" | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
Gene, Ferarri is trying to say that the car cannot meet US DOT standards and that simply is not true, there is not a car made that could not be made to meet US Standards. Ferrari attempt to use cost as a reason is not an answer, again the question is: can the car be made to meet DOT standards and the Answer is YES. Ferrari is manipulating the law to try and control the market, this law was not put in place to allow a corpration to control the market, it was for saftey and well-being of the general public. As a CEO of a Publicly Traded Company I am well aware of Shareholders but your diatribe on the "non-communist" business model is really out there. | ||
| Gene B. Radcliffe - 308 GTS (Brcbank)
|
Martin: Very good points. I agree that some of the safety laws are legit and that some are overbroad. Seat belt and windshield are good examples, but once they make an in-road, everything seems to be fair game like the buzzers and lights to accompany the seat belts and on and on. Parts of the orginal law are ok but most of it is overbroad garbage. Your conclusion about the effect of the free market resulting in only Yugos at a take it or leave it price is one possible, but unlikely result. Here, Ferrari is not using legal tactics to ruin an automobile manufacturing competitor, but rather an importing after-market modifying competitor. Quite different scenario I think. I fully agree society is too litigious and that recovery of full legal fees would be appropriate. Most state already have a law awarding legal fees in frivilous or vexatious lawsuits. The Firestone and Ford example is interesting. In that case the DOT is a good thing for general standards, but did the DOT protect us from the defective tires in the first place? Was it not the lawsuits and/or negative publicity that really prompted the recall? In any event it could have been me. We have the non-recalled tires on our Explorer and I am sure they are just as bad, but am making the decision to continue to drive on them knowing the risks versus the cost of replacing them. I am sure they will pay dearly for their corporate policy, I would defend only their right to make policy - but when it come to lives, well, where do we draw the line. FNA can use the system, on that we agree. I think its "ok" you do not, reasonable people can differ on that point. It is not "fair", but few laws are, depending on your perspective. Is it the "right" thing - a value judgment. Will it "hurt" them - hard to say, looks like kind of a wash considering the warranty and parts sale and price cards they will play. Perhaps the only ones hurt are the purchasers of euro cars who will suffer in the resale market. Should we protect them? Ferrari - Mafia - Italy? What! Thank you for the interesting discussion. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Gene; I can see your opinion but still think that you are wrong on these issues. Yes, the law is limiting. ON the other hand if we do not have them the seat belts would not have any standards. One will break at 30Mph impact becasue of lesser materials and windshields would cut peoples heads off becasue they are made of regular glass instead of tempered glass. Without some basic safety rules we will be back in the wild west. I do agree with you that DOT has taken things to different levels as so many things in government, people tend to get overboard. The bumpers are crazy, helmets, well yes and no. I would make it mandatory to wear them outside of city limits but inside a city it would be optional. Florida has just abolished the helmet laws. Seeing 16 year olds riding 100mph with their girlfriends on I95 without helmets makes me wonder if that was the intention and if that is right. If you think that it is perfectly okay for a large corporation to use ligal tactics to financially ruin a smaller competitor, well you will end up only driving a Yugo after all. Because that is all that will be left. The biggest corporation will survive after all competition is gone and your Yugo will be priced at "take it or leave it"-prices! If you change your legal system finally to where the pervailing party shall be entitled to recover all legal fees from the opponent lots of suits would not come to the table. I had to open several off-shore corporations for liability reasons so if anybody wants to sue me the attorneys will not see the true value of my holdings and likely drop any case. Scheister lawyers will only look at your value and then hope to sue and settle. Settlement is only so popular because most people rather settle although they are right than spend tens of thousands of Dollars in their lawyers defending themselves. The Scheisters know that and use it to make money. Free enterprise? hardly! Take Firestone and Ford as a classic example. They were blocking all complaints although hundreds of people died already. Without DOT requirements for tires they would be able to get away with it. Loss of freedom or good laws? Take the same example and look at their corporate ignorance. They knew and did nothing. They knew for years wwhile people were dying, it could have been you! That is what happens when a corporation silences complaints by dragging things through court instead of fixing the problem. I sincerely hope they both have to pay up through their nose and declare bankrupcy to set an example for the rest of the big corporations to get their act together. Coming back to FNA. Sure they can use the system in place. Is it okay? NO, is it fair? NO is it the right thing to do? NO will it hurt them in the long run? I SURE HOPE SO! Sounds like I am frustrated but really I am not. I live the capitalist dream but was able to make my money the honest way without using these tactics. This is like the Mafia, scare them (warranty) and if that does not work kill them (the newest plot) | ||
| Gene B. Radcliffe - 308 GTS (Brcbank)
|
Martin, First, I disagree with the law. Much like the motorcycle helmet law I think we should have the choice of safety equipment and the free market should determine basic auto equipment like that which is the subject of the rules. In other words, people's puchasing decisions will determine the vehicle's configuration and there would be no difference in US and non-US cars. I also think in a free enterprise system Ferrari has every right to use the courts, laws and regulatory agencies to protect the integrity of their product and take advantage of the laws that are on the books. If they are able to use existing law or sue you out of business, so be it, then you did not have the resources to compete effectively. They should not be limited to only what you consider fair competition - by competing on pricing. That is the way unregulated business is supposed to be. Any anticompetitive nature of the operations is covered by anti-trust laws. The fact that it is a corporation doing it to maximize their profit makes no difference, the corporation is owned by it shareholders who have as much right to get ahead as you do and did. My point is that freedom and rights were taken away with the initial law - that is what limited your right to buy and import vehicles, not the action Ferrari is taking to take advantage of that law. Thomas, I don't see the great scheme or conspiracy here. In fact it looks like DOT is about to nail them to the wall with its put up or shut up letter. It's not Ferrari denying the rights, its the law that originally set up the limitations, like worthless 5 mph bumpers, seatbelt buzzers, tire placards, DOT stickers, words v. international symbols, KM v MPH, starter and window interlocks etc. I've read the docket and I recognize your concerns and the effect on your business, but still maintain the law created your business and now you're mad at FNA for using the law too. You argument about sitting on the earlier model years is a good estoppel argument, but it does not prevent them from now using the law. Why can't Ferrari, or more correctly, FNA, use the DOT for its benefit? Indirectly they pay a lot of wages and corporate and personal income, sales, luxury and real estate taxes through their buisness and dealers and salesmen and mechanics etc. here. Paul, What is Ferrari manipulating? Everything is open and public record. The law is on the books. Somebody will make a decision and the courts will review it. Yes they are trying to limit supply and keep prices high, but that is their business decision. We don't have to buy at that high price. We have no right to a reasonably priced Ferrari (or parts). Yes this is corporate greed but corporations are made up of shareholders (see above) and that is part of the non-communist, non-socialist business model. Without that free enterprise we'd all be driving Yugos. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Sorry for the Spellies. Me no english! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Thomas; you will get a letter send from me. I will forward it to the congressman as you had suggested. I have posted this before. I used to do the same ting as you many years back in Germany the other way arround and was running into similar problems with Mitsubishi Germany and Toyota Germany. Expensive law suits with no merit but they did that to all importers and got most of them out of business. It is a scare tactic and done to maximize their own profit. Sue the competition out of business. Gene, that is not business the way it is supposed to be and neither acceptable if you ask me. We should not condole a corporation for using the courts or DOT or any other agency to get rid of the competition. The appropriate way is to reduce prices to where it becomes an issue for the buyer, will he buy imports or US-distributor. They have declared that they will no longer honor warranty on imported cars. I can understand that, although I think it is not okay. If the import is just a few thousand cheaper than the US-car you will have plenty of people going for the US car. Thomas wil be out of business but by fair business practice. This matter does concern us very much. It concerns all of us. If FNA succeeds with this what will be next? Your parts, as expensive as they are already, may be increased. You can buy many parts cheaper today in the world than here in the US. I just saved a few thousand on my 30K-parts. The point is, once there is no competition things will be for the worse! Bernie; I agree, Americans should care about so many other things, fact is they don't. Americans are lazy cattle that does nothing! While politicians promise before the election and do nothing for 4 years, they re-elect them anyway because they do not want to think about what they really have done for them. Americans care about a blow job on the president more than they care for what he was dicussing while he was getting the blow job! You can not even get Americans to the polls on election day. Americans can not be bothered for the hour on a Tuesday to vote for their Town Councils, their County and State-Representatives. Voting is what makes this country's "Freedom" yet Americans do not bother to go and cast their votes or get involved in the political process. This is why Fox News broadcasts their news the way they do. This is why Americans watch these news instead of Meet the Press. Voting is not a right, it is a duty! Are you involved in Human Rights or the environment? Which organization do you belong to and what have you done lately except send them a check? I am a rich guy today and do care if I am taken for a ride by FNA or not. I care if my rights are violated or not. If I am right I will sue you for it if necessary, even if it is for $25.00 only! I love this country. This country offers the best opportunities to make money and become rich. I did it and so can everybody else. This however is based on freedom and rights. Once these are taken away America will become an equivalent to any communist country. Dictated and individual rights taken from the citizens. Guys before you "Americans" get nuts over my comments. Again, I love this country. I have a coice where to live and chose the US. I see these things and they bother me but in the grand picture there is no place I'd rather be! There are enough exceptions, so these are not general attacks agains you or the Americans in general. I just used this expression from the previous post! | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
I think the point is real simple, The goverment has allowed people to import cars into the United states as long as they meet DOT standards (pollution & Saftey) for years. I don't care if it's a Ferrari or a Goggomobile it can be made to meet DOT standards. In this case you have a manufacture (Ferrari) trying to manipulate the system in order to control the market, the principal reason is to limit supply and thus keep prices artifically high. What it cost to modify the car has nothing to do with it, the simple issue is can the car be modified to meet US stanards??? The answer is without a doubt YES!! Ferrari's stance is an insult to all!! This is corporate Greed at it's worst and I truly hope it backfires on Ferrari and their idiot counsel who wrote their response. (and yes I care about human rights but what the *#!* that does that have do with this thread... no need to answer the ????) | ||
| www.ameristarcapitalwholesale.com (Ameristarcap)
|
Bernie, Perhaps I shouldn't expect much sympathy or help from chat members on this issue, we are talking about some very expensive cars, but this is a Ferrari Chat site, and like it or not Ferrari cars are some of the worlds most expensive, perhaps you would feel more comfortable posting at the United Nations and Sierra Club websites? To suggest that we are not concerned about human rights or the environment is certainly not fare, how would you know, or anyone else for that matter, that we don't have these interests at heart? If human rights and the environment are, or are not, concerns of ours are we then limited from interests other than those you wrote about? For my part I am posting about a subject that directly affects my life at this moment, what else is a site like this for? And it is not like those of us fortunate enough to be able to buy a Ferrari are sitting on our cans all day, I would imagine that more than a fare share of us had to work our tails off to afford such a luxury and passion. | ||
| Bernie Ziemer (Bernhard)
|
I think the Americans should care about more important things than if a rich guy can get a car for 250,000 USD or 150,000 USD. Big words for a lot of BS. They should rather care for human rights and the environment  | ||
| www.ameristarcapitalwholesale.com (Ameristarcap)
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Dear Gene, I would respectfully have to disagree with you on this point, I believe the disappointment that many of us feel, and many more of you will feel when you know the facts, with FNA is fully justified, and I can see where you maybe confused so please let me point out some facts: 1. DOT did not create these sets of laws; it was Congress that drew up the legislation and past it into law. 2. When you are dealing with DOT you are automatically dealing in the realm of Vehicle safety and nothing else! This is supposed to be serious stuff; we are talking about the lives and highway safety concerns of millions upon millions of American here!! FNA had the opportunity and responsibility during the model year 1999 and 2000 petition to try to block importations if there were true safety concerns with the importation of these cars, and they had nothing to say then! Everyone knows that the 1999, 2000, and 2001 models are exactly the same regarding safety concerns, where was FNA for the last two years prior? The answer is simple: controlling the movements of 360 Spiders and Barchetta cars. 3. DOT is not the proper forum for any auto manufacture, especially one as revered as Ferrari, to use our government agency (and your tax dollars) to try to try to control the movements of cars that they have sold to private individuals under the guise of "auto safety". For you to suggest that "They are merely using it to their advantage, an appropriate business decision" is not serious on your part is it? It is like saying we condone the process and the results of the O.J. Simpson murder trial. Something as serious as auto safety need not be turned into a circus and that is what FNA is trying to do. Now if there were no rules, I could certainly live with that, but in the "here and now" that we all have to currently live in there is no time for wishing that we had no regulations. We are able to bring these cars in on the thinnest of legislative thread, and even that is trying to be cut out from under us! | ||
| Gene B. Radcliffe - 308 GTS (Brcbank)
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I think your anger is misplaced. The villan is the DOT who created the rule, and Congress and the President who did not act to reverse it, not FNA. They are merely using it to their advantage, an appropriate business decision. If the rule were gone we would have true freedon and choice to import at will and as the market dictated and FNA would have no rule to use. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
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Tom, I read your 13 pg petition and thank you for your passionate appeal to dot.Also read all the material and felt like vomiting reading FNA's sophistry and manipulative disingenuousness.I will write to my congressman. As a '99 Euro 360 owner I am enraged over the attitude of FNA in its official stance and the pariah-like treatment I have experienced.Keep us posted. Martin | ||
| www.ameristarcapitalwholesale.com (Ameristarcap)
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I have been literally buried alive in this issue for weeks now. I have become a time consumed novice lobbyist for this cause, so please forgive me for not contributing sooner on this matter. I offer the following important information for your review, I also offer my opinions as well as obvious biases, but I humbly believe the facts will speak for themselves. Please come and comment to your own conclusions. If you are of the opinion that our lives are already filed with to many rules and regulations, and you cringe every time your see another freedom or liberty evaporate right before your eyes, then you'll be interested to know that there is still one freedom hanging in the balance that you can retain and make a difference I doing so. FNA is now engaged in a scheme to deny Americans the right to purchase and import a Ferrari into the United States. Using a scheme that leverages the Department of Transportation, an American taxpayer funded Federal Government Agency (now seemingly employed as FNA's own sales and marketing tool), to deny you the option of directly importing your own Ferrari vehicle (which for all intense and purposes is a " World Car") from somewhere else around the world. Forcing you to feed and only feed at the Authorized Ferrari of North Americas dealership trough. In essence FNA is taking your tax dollars and using them to limit your freedoms and options in the supposed name of Vehicle Safety. In a nut shell the fight is this: Americans wanting the freedom to exercise their Free Trade and Private Property Right to bring a car (originally destine for use in some country other than the U.S.) can under existing Congressional Legislation bring a Ferrari into the US under these Congressional guidelines. 1. Someone wanting to import a car petitions the right to do so, for a particular car and model year, at the offices of DOT. 2. Dot reviews the petition document, and in this situation accepts comment from FNA, regarding the FNA's position on Safety issues that pertain to the petitioned vehicles. In this case we are talking about the 2001 model year 550 and 360. 3. In this situation DOT plays the referee between FNA and the American people; DOT must try to decide who is right and who is wrong. Is the car being made for sale outside the US "substantially similar" to the current US version of that same car, or not? That is the crux of the issue. After the decision is made, we then know if we are free to import or not. I suggest that you read for yourself the documents provided to DOT by the various interested and effected parties and decide for yourself. Don't take my word for anything!! Here are some direct links to the DOT website: 1. http://dms.dot.gov Go to this link, and then click on the search button. Then scroll down the page and enter the numbers 9628 (this is for the 2001 Modena) into the field that asks for a "Docket" number. This will get you all the communications to DOT on this subject. 2. 9628-1: is the actual request for petition approval, by J.K. Technology. http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.asp?qdocumentid=129149&qdocketid=9628 3. 9628-6: is the FNA letter in opposition http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.asp?qdocumentid=136341&qdocketid=9628 4. 9628-11: is my letter that I wrote to my Congressman, I have never written to a Congressman so I didn't cheat myself any. My letter to my Congressman is rather long so you can easily skip over my background stuff, but I do dissect the FNA letter completely, and perhaps to a fault, but for anyone that wants a perspective and to be informed please read this and all the other communications. http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.asp?qdocumentid=137241&qdocketid=9628 5. 9628-22: DOT basically tells FNA to put up or shut up, with its concerns and that document is due today! If FNA does reply we can expect some more delays and more attempts at reducing your options. http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.asp?qdocumentid=138173&qdocketid=9628 My sources both in and outside DOT tell me that it is now rumored that people inside DOT actively solicited responses from FNA (which would be against the rules) and are working against Americans like you and I to disallow importations, and for what reason? Personality conflicts or grudges have no place here! Look for another report on these two levels of the story in the Sept. 17th issue of Auto Week, if it gets processed in time. THIS IS A CALL TO ARMS !!!!! For those of you that would like to help, please do so by simply drafting a short letter and fax it to me (I will post it for us at DOT on the website), contact your Senate and Congressional offices and voice your concern, fax them that same letter. This will really make a difference! Let me know if I can help you in any way. We have hired a lawyer, who is working for all of us on this matter, in D.C. Please review the facts and if you see things the way many of us do, then take a moment to write me or email me with a support letter. Some of you may read this and say that "this isn't my fight", I don't own a 2001 model. But does that matter? You may decide that you want a 2006 model and it may not be available through a US dealer, unless you're on the waiting list and/or you don't mind trading in your existing Ferrari for the equivalent of some Three Mile Island dirt. Do you really want to see this option, this liberty disappear? Thanks for listening Thomas [email protected] Tel: 714-846-8686 Fax: 714-374-4550 |