| Author | Message | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2002 |
> OK, sure thing Pete. What you described as higher level best practices is > commonly known as Market Research. They have companies that do this. > As a matter of fact, funny thing is...I own one that does exactly that. Having served on several Best Practices committees and defined Best Practices for large companies, I am comfortable with my ability to comment in this area. Obviously, you have related experience as well � the disconnect is that you thinking of Best Practices in a specific context when, in fact, Best Practices are generated from a variety of sources. Examples of sources include company-internal BP (where businesses define internal rules to ensure, for example, that products developed by different groups yield uniform quality and supportability), industry-specific BP (where industry groups define guidelines that help ensure inter-operability between independently developed vendor and proprietary solutions), and general BP (where industry groups or academia develop general guidelines that define the best approach for attacking a specific area). A person opening their first restaurant would likely reference general BP guidelines rather than wing it, and part of the general BP would include market research. For a chain of restaurants opening their �Nth� location, market research may not necessarily be classified as BP, but it�s probably part of their for site qualification formula that is a part of their internal BP. We started this Business Practices tangent with your statement that copying ideas is called Best Practices. While specific context is needed to determine what is BP, context isn�t needed to determine what isn�t and copying ideas is not an example of best practices for obvious reasons. Copying ideas would not be mentioned in a company�s internal BP guidelines because it would seal their fate in any litigation � imagine how Microsoft would have faired in their many suits had their such a statement been included in their BP guidelines (even though copying is obviously a large part of Microsoft�s MO). Industry group BP�s would also not promote copying ideas because such statements would result in loss of support from the participating vendors. Best practices typically include monitoring competitor�s strategy and using that to influence your own product, but it would not dictate copying ideas. It�s a fine line, but not really that fine (and certainly less fine in court). > Also, before you go on talking about the same content, go visit Ferrari-Talk. > You'll find tech articles, and all sorts of other things not found on this site. > Think it over. I'll be enjoying the sites. Given the wealth of JRV�s knowledge, I have never expressed any doubt that it will grow into a valuable resource; I�m just not personally enchanted with the approach used to get there. My personal opinion is of course meaningless, but I think that a different approach would have yielded more enthusiastic support of his site from the Fchat crowd. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 968 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK, sure thing Pete. What you described as higher level best practices is commonly known as Market Research. They have companies that do this. As a matter of fact, funny thing is...I own one that does exactly that. Also, before you go on talking about the same content, go visit Ferrari-Talk. You'll find tech articles, and all sorts of other things not found on this site. Think it over. I'll be enjoying the sites. Cheers | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2002 |
> Again you are looking at best practices at a micro level. Actually, I�m not � I just happened to pick a �micro� example. Higher-level examples of best practices include researching the demographics of the area and visiting and evaluating existing local steak houses to determine the proper atmosphere, pricing, etc for your restaurant. These are examples of best practices that include sizing up the competition. However, what is NOT an example of best practices is to conclude from the competitive analysis that Ruth�s Cris steak house is the best match for the area and therefore the best approach is to open a restaurant called �Rooth�s Chris� steak house, duplicate Ruth�s Cris menu, and use the justification that it�s OK to copy because the new restaurant will eventually grow into something unique over time. Although businesses copy other businesses all the time, it IS a best practice that most copiers work very hard to distinguish their product from the one that inspired it. There is no mystery to this, this is just good business � a product that is blatantly copied from another seldom gets respect because the vendor is seen as an opportunist rather than somebody who is striving to provide the best service. > I'd like to announce that they ALL start in a nebulous manner until the core > users pretty much sway it to become what it eventually takes shape as. > And the best part is that if the site is maturing to be something exactly > like FChat, then the best site will win. It�s not starting in a nebulous manner, it duplicated Fchat from the start. It is not �maturing to be something exactly like Fchat�; it duplicated Fchat from the start. The best part to you is the worst part for me � I don�t see any value in splitting the same discussion across two forums because, if both sites survive, there are fewer participants in each discussion and the quality is diluted. If Ftalk�s goal is to compete head-on with Fchat, then it really isn�t right or fair to copy Fchat�s format. If Ftalk�s goal is to create a new resource for the Ferrari community, rather than a replacement for Fchat, then it also isn�t right to copy Fchat�s format. This is NOT an example of best practices � businesses don�t blatantly copy because it�s just bad business (even though virtually all business were built upon non-blatant copying). Nobody is better qualified than JRV to provide another Ferrari forum � if it doesn�t succeed, it will be because of an unpopular approach rather than a lack of content. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 908 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter, Again you are looking at best practices at a micro level. If I were to open a steak house best practices would start with location scouting, forget cutting the meat. Staffing, uniforms, ambience, advertising, etc. There is a reason why when something is successful it is "cloned" by other businesses. Even funky late night Oxy Clean ads. Clorox is now putting something out called Corox Oxygenated Action. Same friggin' thing. Even the label is identical. The packaging is also identical. THESE are best practices, along with brand recognition. Best practices extend to a lot more than you give it credit. It simply means it worked for someone else who was doing what you are doing, so go ahead and DO IT. Also Pepsi/Coke is most definitely a studied best practice. It's a Harvard use case as a matter of fact that. I studied it in college (not Harvard) for my strategy and policy class. If I hadn't known, I wouldn't have mentioned it. The other site is not exactly the same. It has technical publications, it has restoration sections, it has cars for sale/wanted etc. The site is not the same. It hasn't even molded into anything yet. As someone with extensive experience starting online communities, I'd like to announce that they ALL start in a nebulous manner until the core users pretty much sway it to become what it eventually takes shape as. It's kind of like calling a puppy cute and watching it grow up to be an ugly ass dog. You can't tell until the site reaches maturity. And the best part is that if the site is maturing to be something exactly like FChat, then the best site will win. Given the content and traffic in FChat I think we all know who would win that battle. I've seen JR take abuse for other things. As staunch Lamborghini supporters we've taken knocks on our heads as well. I like to stand up for what I believe in, which is why I'm even writing these responses. I have no vested interest in LTalk and FTalk other than I like online communities to pass the time and mostly to learn something really cool every once in a while. The point is that people already see value in what JR is offering. And "mirror site" is an incorrect term here. It is actually tech lingo for a site that is put up that shows EXACTLY what the original site has. Meaning that when the original site gets a post, it's updated immediately in the sister sites. The purpose of a mirror site is to manage traffic and for stress and load reasons. Nobody has overstepped any boundaries here. Cheers | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2002 |
> Best practices are not isolated to quality standards. Best practices represent methodologies independent of the final product. If one was opening a steak house, examples of Best Practices would be: use only USDA beef, use high temperature for rare, use low temperature for well done, etc. The following would not be examples of Best Practices: cut the meat into 1.75� slices, season the beef with 2 tbs salt and 2 tbs of coarsely ground pepper, etc. While the latter might make a good steak, it is a recipe rather than a best practice. There is nothing wrong with using a competitor�s methodologies, but there is something wrong with stealing a recipe. In the software world, if an employee leaves a company, joins a new company, and creates the exact same software using the exact same code � there is a 100% chance that the company will be sued. In the private website area, the laws don�t apply, but it isn�t a complete stretch to say that somebody who uses a website and then clones it isn�t doing basically the same thing that would be punishable in the commercial world. In reference to your examples, Pepsi probably copied Coke, but this certainly isn�t an example of best practices. In any case, the academic discussion of Best Practices, while interesting, is off-topic to the point of this Fchat thread. > Different content categorizing would have hardly made anyone happy. We both agree that are positive results to competition. We disagree about what competition is and what path should be taken to compete. Your view is that addition of a new forum is constructive competition. I strongly agree with that view in general, but not when the new forum is a clone of the original. The reason for that is simple � the real �competition� that makes Fchat such a valuable forum is the 2600 users with differing opinions and philosophies � the more participants, the better quality of the discussion. To create another site that has exactly the same discussion going on in parallel does not improve the discussion � it degrades the quality of both forums by fragmenting the groups so that there are fewer participants in any given discussion. I barely have time to keep up with Fchat, why would I want to log into two sites that are essentially covering the same topics and where the divided audience reduces the quality of both forums. If Fchat had serious flaws, such as being over-moderated of over-commercialized, then there would be value in creating a similar site that corrected these problems, but this isn�t the case. The point is that another Ferrari forum is ALWAYS welcome, but a clone site that fragments the discussion isn�t really the type of competition that improves the breed. > Well if anything, since he's thoroughly pissed off so many people in this site > he is in no way unethically stealing users from here. People who see value in > what JR has offered will wander over there � Least he could have done is > done a straight copy instead of trying to hide it with all this other crap JRV is well respected on Fchat and with good reason. The ONLY reason he is getting abuse is because he cloned the format. If he created a unique forum, there would be virtually unanimous support for it. Regardless of whether his motivation was good or bad � and I don�t even try to speculate � the OUTWARD appearance of cloning the site is that it is an outright attempt to steal users. I agree that superficial font or color changes wouldn�t really help - the requirement for an uncontroversial reception is to create something that is your own and that adds value. Creating a mirror site not only doesn�t add value, it actually reduces the value of each forum by dividing the discussion groups. If he created a unique site, it may still end up fragmenting the discussion, but it still wouldn�t raise an eyebrow on Fchat because he would be creating his own niche that will either succeed or fail based upon on its own merits. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 868 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter. Best practices are not isolated to quality standards. I worked in various capacities and as an owner of various companies deal with everything from consultation services to manufacturing standards (be it UL type or ISO type). Best practices can be linked to process procedure and any number of things. Tried and true use cases that are studied in college eventually become best practices or are best practices already. Some of them, believe it or not are frightfully familiar to other successful models. Staples, OfficeMax. McDonald's, Burger King. Safeway, Albertson's. Yawn. Costco, Sam's Club. Walmart, KMart. Coca Cola, Pepsi. Yawn. Border's, Barnes & Noble. Funcoland, Electronics Boutique....zzzz...zzzz...And that's not even mentioning other international companies resembling domestic, and vice versa (wiping drool off chin). Look at the advent of automobile manufacturing and design. The struggle and struggle. Some guy invents the assembly line and any car maker worth their mettle is using the same concept. There isn't a single mass producing automobile company that does not implement the production line. Japanese kaizen (Toyota), or quality measures and standards, is practiced in virtually every automotive factory as well. Toyota's Just In Time inventory system and Walmart's Always In Stock models are copied to the cross on the t's and dots on the i's to the point that they are commonly referred as just in time inventory without knowing it's roots. Different content categorizing would have hardly made anyone happy. If anything it's an insult to all of our intelligence. Technical Q & A. Let's see how do we rename this... Questions about your car? Nah. Questions you might ask your mechanic? Nah. There are other technology forums which are now defunct (bought by MSFT) which had Tech Q & A way before FChat even existed. General Discussion areas are simple enough. Without this you probably won't have a forum of any interest type. Photo Gallery...ditto. Off Topic, I mean really Pete. I think you're stretching here. The success of a clone has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of the approach. Hmm... Well if anything, since he's thoroughly pissed off so many people in this site he is in no way unethically stealing users from here. People who see value in what JR has offered will wander over there. FCA's National Tech Chairman is on FTalk. The board's merits are there. It's young and content is low, but the potential is there. To put up distinctions is, as I mentioned, a bit of an insult if anything. JR's attitude has generally been very straight forward (at least with my restoration dealings with him) and thankfully BS exempt. The site is what it is. Renaming areas, different colors, different font, etc would have gotten even worse reactions I can almost guarantee. "Look at this moron trying to copy FChat. Least he could have done is done a straight copy instead of trying to hide it with all this other crap...blah blah blah" Cheers | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Junior Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2003 |
this is getting heavy! | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2002 |
Taek-Ho, This is my last session at the pulpit. First I�ll reply to your comments: > Tried and true ideas are generally called "best practices" and are common in > almost every facet of education and business. The industry term �Best Practices� refers to internal rules that organizations use to ensure all of their products meet a certain level of quality. Copying a competitor�s product is not in any way an example of Best Practices, it is, well, simply copying a competitor�s product. That being said, it is a �pretty good practice� to create products that are �inspired� by those that are successful in the market � you see this all the time in business and this type of leveraging creates competition that improves the overall market. What you don�t see in business is a company cloning the format of their competitor�s products because, in the commercial world, such actions result in litigation. There are no such issues in the semi-private website space, but most people would feel an obligation to create something unique about the clone to make it their own. > As far as "cloning content" please be serious. Cloning content would be to > have the identical posts. The point is that �those items that are under the control of the website owner� are cloned. There could have been an effort to make even modest distinction in the topic categories to try to make something about the new site different. > The traffic in FTalk since it's inception is probably hardly what FChat generates in > a week if that. The success of the clone has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of the approach. All of the above being said, I welcome more Ferrari forums and I have personally benefited from JRV�s insightful posts on Fchat, so I sincerely and honestly wish him success in this endeavor. My only point is that there should have been some effort to distinguish the new site from the one it was inspired by. In the absence of this distinction, I would hope that he sent Rob the Ferrari equivalent of a fruit basket (i.e. a free 30K service) in recognition of the months Rob�s template saved him in his effort. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 825 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter, This issue has been discussed and I think both parties came to an agreement. Stop trying to beat a dead horse. As far as "cloning content" please be serious. Cloning content would be to have the identical posts. The traffic in FTalk since it's inception is probably hardly what FChat generates in a week if that. There is NOTHING wrong with implementing tried and true ideas and hoping to make them work for you as long as your intentions help others in these forums. Tried and true ideas are generally called "best practices" and are common in almost every facet of education and business. Use cases etc. are pretty much testament to that. So Peter, relax, take a deep breath and enjoy the sites you wish to visit. In my opinion you can't go wrong with any of them. I'm not standing up for anyone in particular, just what I believe in. What's right is right. I think it's unfair to pass judgement so harshly, that's all. If doing these things were considered unethical you would have a whole bunch of monopoly businesses running the show. Take basic car auctions if you will. It worked for one, then another popped up and then another. Nothing wrong with that. Because of the amount of exciting autctions out there they are available to a much wider audience with all different kinds of automobiles. As an enthusiast I love just tracking them even if I end the day not buying anything. There are too many examples to list. It is possible to coexist you know. Common interest groups pop up ALL the time. Some make it some don't. By reading this post and other similar ones I think you can see Rob's enthusiasm about FChat and I think you can also see Rob feels far from threatened by any other site out there (FTalk in particular). He's got a great thing going here. Users make the forum. Rob's just been gracious enough to build a place for us all to interact. Starbucks, Planet Java, Java Hut, who cares. Whatever floats your boat. As fellow enthusiasts and fans let's just wish them all success in their ventures. The internet is a BIG place. Cheers | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2002 |
> Cosmetic changes to a website are no different from plagiarizing. The point being > that there is nothing wrong with a little friendly competition, and it should > not be construed as plagiarizing. Again, the sites are young. Maybe as they both > hopefully develop successfully they will each fill their niches. If you cloned the Fchat format to create www.vacuumcleanerchat.com or some other unrelated website, there really wouldn't be an issue worth discussing. But let's not confuse stealing somebody's format to compete directly against them with the concept of "friendly competition". The cloning in this case is not flattery, it is the byproduct of either somebody choosing the laziest and least imaginative path to compete or an outright attempt to stab Rob in the back. When you say "both sites are young", I assume the "both" you are referring to are the new Ferrari and Lambo sites because you can't really compare the "youngness" of Fchat and Ftalk. The whole point is that Fchat ALREADY has a niche, and by cloning the format AND content, the new site is clearly trying to steal some or all of that niche rather than create it's own. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 820 Registered: 11-2002 |
To each their own Jeff. As a marque fanatic (Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Lancia, blah blah blah Italian cars, blah blah blah  ) the more the merrier. I think that eventually what will happen is that they will each have their own space in the web and be appreciated by other fans. That's why I love the "Neapolitan" ice cream. Chocolate, Strawberry, and Vanilla! Hell yeah! I've found that a lack of diversity always brings about eventual boredom. I'm sure they both have good things down the pipe for both and I'm sure all we have to do is benefit from it! Don't let board admin's determine your involvement. This is a community and there are many many people offering a lot of value added stuff irrespective of what is posted. Even the naysayers must have a certain respect if they're still around... I've taken my lumps on the head but there's too much to enjoy to let it get to me. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
New member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2003 |
Taek... would it not be better to expand an existing site like this one instead? The admin here is always open to growth and change so why not integrate the desired features into this site? One reason.... the other admin whats his own forum. Why would that be? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 818 Registered: 11-2002 |
Funny how they have useful tech articles and stuff like that. Restoration projects (which I personally love) is a cool link too. J.G's Ferrari P/Monster in this forum is awe inspiring too. Technical section is getting good responses. Take it easy Jeff. Stop reading between the lines and appreciate it for what it is. If it's not for you...then it's just simply not for you. Let's give 'em all a chance, whattaya say? Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
New member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2003 |
As far as I can tell the new site is an ego forum. By having his own forum the admin can promote his own veiws and agenda. It is always a pity that we discover ego in the realm of exotics. If the other board admin decides he wants to bash a point of view from another site he can do so. He has the ablility to censor posts and topics just like an editor and that has no place in a public forum.ONe thing that has drawn me here is that the board is open to all topics.. even if the flamers like to Ferrari Bash.. at least the Admin here lets them speak their ( weak) minds. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2002 |
how do I find this forum? I can't find anything under Ferrari-talk.com | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 803 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter, A donkey is a donkey even if you paint it pink. Cosmetic changes to a website are no different from plagiarizing. The point being that there is nothing wrong with a little friendly competition, and it should not be construed as plagiarizing. Again, the sites are young. Maybe as they both hopefully develop successfully they will each fill their niches. Cheers | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2002 |
It's a free world, anybody can start any website they want -- BUT, if I were starting a website that was obviously very heavily inpsired by ferrarichat.com, I would at least go to some length to make something about it different. If the look and feel are influenced by the software package, then use different software. The topics aren't dictated by the software, but these are also virtually identical to Fchat! I'm all for more Ferrari forums, but creating an exact clone of Fchat is a rip-off to Rob and only serves to fragment a useful discussion forum. There is nothing legally wrong with leveraging somebody's ideas, but there's not a lot that's right about it either. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5128 Registered: 12-2000 |
Joe, please understand as I defend FC a little. JRV is one of the experienced and talented techs on FerrariChat.com. He has added much value. We have 2,600 other users with varying experience. My guess is 50 with similar experience as JRV. One mechanics view point vs. many? I'll take the many as I'm smart enough to weed through the BS. No where else on the internet right now can you get the opinion of several dozen experts. The safety is seeing a trend in recommendations. Would you trust your life without a second opinion? JRV is great experience wise, not the most tactful and at center of some of the biggest flames wars in FC history. Whatever floats your boat. | ||
| Joe Pino (Joe_pino)
New member Username: Joe_pino Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi guys, BTW - I'm not new to FerrariChat, over time I have just listened/observed/laughed. It's not too bad sometimes. (I go all the way back to the expensivecars.com era) However, I do like, and prefer, the new Ferrari-Talk and Lamborghini-Talk sites. In Fact, I like um alot. Why? Because the owner of the site(s) is a veteran Mechanic. You don't have to post your topic/problem and then wait in hopes that someone who knows the right answer plugs in, and, listen to alot of noise and hyper posters along the way. Who cares about format, colors, software, and getting to 50,000,000 posts yada yada yada. I care about the quality of the info and the guy controlling the info. This is where JRV has the advantage. This is the "niche" JRV has filled. This is the advantage he has. This is the difference. (it's pretty simple and obvious to me) Over the last month on Lamborghini-List, I have accomplished more on my Italian cars than with any other site I've visited. And since 1997, I've been with all of them. Thank you. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member Username: Milo Post Number: 205 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>> then I was critasized for having the audacity to work on and race Italian cars, yet not being Italian... Interesting someone would say/do this especially if this person or persons are Ferrari fans. Enzo Ferrari hardly ever used Italian drivers in his racers. I assume because he knew the inherent dangers of racing and didn't want to be responsible for his own countrymen's deaths. And uh... Michael Schumacher is German. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5127 Registered: 12-2000 |
well put JRV. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1666 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>dedication, perseverance and vision. Those are the things that make Ferrari Chat successful, not the software; and, in the end, those are the things that will sustain Ferrari Chat's growth and influence. << I do agree with your statements and I'm not interested in arguing or competeing, my sites and what I'm about are influenced by me and my experiences, and my knowledge. My 30+ years of experience belongs to ME. And it's my choice and my decision as to whom and or how I share what's mine. I have shared freely with any that have asked and never held back parts of procedures like I see here on occasion. I've freely participated and never asked anything in return . Yet there are those that have even found reasons to critasize that! I've been critasized for not being German in days gone by and yet having the audacity to service and race German cars, then I was critasized for having the audacity to work on and race Italian cars, yet not being Italian, then it was having the audacity to be an Independent Ferrari mechanic without the factories permission, then without the dealers permission, then without someone elses permision, bla, bla, bla,bla,bla. The bottom line is Hate Mongering is everywhere concerning just about anything. Negative people will always find reasons to critasize and hate. Just the way life is. I don't see my sites as competition...if others insist that's the case all I can say is and????? Does the guy who put up the first gas station in every town have claim to every corner? Because others stole his idea of selling gas from a corner location???? JRV | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 257 Registered: 2-2003 |
I love this format and the software.....everything is easy to use, and it's not too "busy"..... Let's all not forget.....imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Good luck to all....each board will eventually evolve and have it's own distinctive flavor.......I really think there will be and is room for everyone. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5126 Registered: 12-2000 |
So when I switch my software, how long will it take for JRV? Taek, I think I express elsewhere in my thread that I'm for competition and it will help improve all communities. BTW, I'm opening up an exotic car shop in Houston. ;) Bring it on! I'm one bmf and I thrive on competition, you haven't seen anything yet. I will die and my successors will die continuing to make FerrariChat.com the best online Ferrari community in the world.  I never forget anything either. I have a short list and I'm sure it will get longer. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member Username: Milo Post Number: 202 Registered: 4-2003 |
I personally dislike this board software and can't wait until Rob upgrades to a new board software (from another company) when it finally comes out. This software has absolutely no features like the software Rob has chosen for going forward. F-Chat will be rewarding both in features and content. In this regard I come here for the information not the software. Of course the subject matter of some of the threads as left a lot to be desired lately. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 699 Registered: 11-2002 |
Good point Bill. FChat's success will definitely be insured by what has already made it successful. Copying, if that's what we're calling it , the format alone does not mean success. It's the easy part. I too think this is true, which is why Rob can answer with such confidence. Cheers | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 847 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hundreds of people may try to copy the successful Ferrari Chat format, but most will lack Rob's dedication, perseverance and vision. Those are the things that make Ferrari Chat successful, not the software; and, in the end, those are the things that will sustain Ferrari Chat's growth and influence. Judging from the amount of time JRV spends on THIS forum, I think he agrees as well. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 696 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rob, I don't mean to be abrasive, but there is a flaw in your argument. >>This is just turning into more of a competitive environment and goes against the original good natured intentions of the community.<< When there is a free forum for information that generally helps the community, competition will only spark greater content and will generally be for the better of the community. The rules of course apply as long as JR doesn't blast FChat and shamelessly promotes his site. Things you might have overlooked will be accounted for. For example, TY's website et al. By the way, that is a basic econ. concept, I didn't make it up. Although I wouldn't mind taking credit for it and win one of those Nobel thingamajiggs . Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rob, then I retract my comment. It was entirely based on what JR said. Pat, if you claim that sort of behavior is unethical, you would be shocked at how many businesses have thrived out of that very common and ethical reaction. McDonalds pretty much invented franchising. There are a lot of franchises out there making people a lot of money. That is the lame and real world example for you . In software, licensing products and providing near identical content is quite prevalent. All of these boards really are in their fledgeling states. FChat will continue to grow and if the other boards will survive, who knows. I don't think there is anything wrong ethically or otherwise in starting up competition, as long as the players play with fairness. JR has continued to post useful and helpful content in FChat and has not blasted out threads from his site or started threads promoting them (as far as I have seen). I found Lamborghini-talk.com while talking to JR about a potential restoration project. The car was in fact a Lamborghini, and it isn't in either of our best interests to have really long telephone conversations. I didn't provide much content to L-Talk, and resorted to speaking to JR via email. I found F-Talk because JR put up a thread in L-Talk. He didn't even call me about it. Cheers | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 535 Registered: 2-2002 |
"The Software Belongs to Discus Ware not to me or Fchat" No one is saying you stole the software. You just bought the same software and created a sister site to this one with no added value. So what is the point? You would have been better off being a sponsor here (and Rob's Lambo site) with the money you blew on the software and added more value than what you are doing now with a site that is in direct competion with this one. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5123 Registered: 12-2000 |
Taek, read my post, FC really is one of the first online Ferrari communities in this format. All of those others came after. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1665 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh boy...Ferrari-Talk has been up for months...it is not new! If anyone wants the proof email me privately and I'll send you the address with the hit counter! The Software Belongs to Discus Ware not to me or Fchat. People do not purchase the software, they Buy a License to "use" the software. Literally Thousands of sites have opted to use Discus Ware after investigating the different brands of software out there . I suppose explanations to many are useless as there will always be those that see the glass as have empty. JRV | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5122 Registered: 12-2000 |
I mostly agree with you JRV. FerrariChat.com couldn't handle the volume if all 2 million Ferrari enthusiasts came here at once. There will be various communities that meet the needs of diverse users. Tom's site is a great example for it's focus only on the restoration of classic Ferraris. There's less differenation out there among the remaining online Ferrari communities though. I believe Ferrari List was the first to have an online community through an email format. I believe some minor Yahoo boards and ExpensiveCar.com were the first to offer a board online Ferrari community. ExpensiveCar.com evolved into FerrariChat.com (EC archives are stored on FC). The Owner's site board, U12buy, FF, TY, FCA, and a couple others all came after FerrariChat.com. I personally wouldn't copy what another board was doing so closely as some of these unless I was filling a new niche and offering something different. For those that aren't offering something drastically different I wonder why they're trying to take away from a successful community already and disperse the knowledge. It's free to users, so the only answer is these individuals are creating these communities for their own personal gain. If you don't offer something different, then you really don't have the users best interest in mind. Don't you think it would of been better for JRV to put all this extra effort into improving FerrariChat.com and not trying to dilute it? As a user, that's what would disappoint me and why I disagree with Taek and Wayne. TY is filling a niche. FO is filling a niche with some different user base. FCA is filling a niche with some different user base. FF has provided some new features that will improve all the communities (NSX of F Forums). This is just turning into more of a competitive environment and goes against the original good natured intentions of the community. Times a change and FC will adapt. If the wrenching business goes down, open a website! In the long run anyone has the freedom to do what they want to do. With such a diverse community already it won't be possible to make everyone happy. I only do what's in the best interest of the community in mass. FC was really the first successful mass Ferrari community and I didn't do anything under the table or by copying someone else's hard work. I sleep at night and I'm very proud of what the users of FC and I have evolved this community into. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1664 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh boy...Ferrari-Talk has been up for months...it is not new! If anyone wants the proof email me privately and I'll send you the address with the hit counter! The Software Belongs to Discus Ware not to me or Fchat. People do not purchase the software, they Buy a License to "use" the software. Literally Thousands of sites have opted to use Discus Ware after investigating the different brands of software out there . I suppose explanations to many are useless as there will always be those that see the glass as have empty. JRV | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 689 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pat, As I mentioned earlier. The software suites for this type of application really are pretty much the same. If you buy from three different companies, you'll still basically get the same look and feel. Jeff, I was wondering the same. But after some thought I kind of made up my mind that it wouldn't hurt. I don't think that having more is better is the case here. That forum might attract a different type of "crowd" so to speak and develop into something more. If anything I think it's kind of cool that it was started by someone who can provide content immediately, since he has a LOT of technical knowledge in the subject matter. JR has a point in which FChat (although the best chat site by far) was not the first. And I'm glad it is as successful as it is. Cheers | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 534 Registered: 2-2002 |
I don't think my original comment was saying that you stole this idea from Rob at all just wondering why you would create something that was already there and something that you are already a part of (atleast in the contributions to the tech forum and other parts of this site). You went out and bought the exact software as Rob. If you wanted to create something new then why didn't you? I don't think anyone is lashing out at you JRV just wondering why you would do something like that. If you wanted to help out and promote your business you should have focused your energy and time here instead of spliting your time. You could have also been a sponsor here as well. And again this is not lashing out at you or your websites. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2002 |
I don't care one way or the other, but I don't know why you would want to start up basically the same thing. More forums don't give any more information, especially if they are the same people that use them. If anything it is more of a pain to go from one to another. To me it would be much easier to have it all in one place. I don't think there are enough unique users to have different people on different forums(Ferrari)so whats the point. Thats why many have no activity and F-Chat cannot be duplicated. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1663 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>JRV?<< I should address the copy issue first...to clear the air. "Discus Ware" sells "Their Software" to literally thousands of people for any number of different topics. http://www.discusware.com/discus/index.php Their software (Discus Ware) has a format that really isn't that easy to differeniate from any site that uses their software...basicaly they offer color differences. As you probably know Rob, if one goes in and changes the skins the software warranty is voided. I'm no programmer so I'm stuck with leaving the internals alone, at least for now until I find a programmer that can make the changes I have planned for the future. >>What is the deal with Ferrari-talk.com being started by a member here? Isn't that a slap in the face to Rob?<< Well no it's not as a matter of fact. In case you weren't aware, Ferrari Club of America has it's own forum and Myself and Rob both are members of FCA...so does that make it a slap in the face to FCA ? And the Factory has it's own FOS that has a forum, does that make it a slap in the face to The Ferrari Factory? My answer is No, it doesn't. These are simply resources to help Ferrari owners and entusiasts and no one is slapping anyone when trying to be a valuable resourse. I can see from certian positions expressed a sense of loyalty to Rob and the need to lash out at anything or anyone they percieve as threatening. That's to be expected. However what this same group has so conviently overlooked is that I have continued to offer my help and expertise "here" to any that needed it (even though in some cases entire Tech Articles are posted pertianing to the exact same issues on my sites)without reservation, and have never used this site to promote myself or my sites. Another thing so selectively filtered from certian individuals reality. is that my main focus is and has always been mainly centered on the Technical Side of the discusion realm, and having more than one venue and opinion on Technical Issues is in reality a beneficial aspect for everyone, owners and entusiasts alike. Additionally, the participation on multiple sites cannot be a betrayl of anything because the more accurate and truthful information that owners can gather from the most amount of resources availible enhaces the Entire Overall knowledge base of EVERYONE as a whole. More sites do not take away from the knowledge gaining equation they add to it. Any issues I've overlooked or neglected to address feel free to address your further concerns. JRV | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 683 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh and as for the same software... Being the owner of a company that does a lot of web development, forum and chat board software is essentially very "vanilla" and common. There are forums started before FChat that use pretty much the same architecture. There is no piracy there. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 682 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm with Wayne on this one. Each has their own feel and I don't think it's a threat at all. Not a single one has the traffic FChat has. I for one kind of wish there was an active Lamborghini site, even if it meant one would pop up out of nowhere. I've been trying to sway some people to hit LChat, but no go as of yet. Cheers | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1780 Registered: 8-2002 |
What's wrong with a little diversity? I vistit F-Chat, FerrariForum.net, TomYang.net, and now Ferrari-Talk.com and enjoy all of them. Each provides a different atmosphere with its own unique "flavor." | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 741 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well, Basically it seems a near one to one copy of FChat. No need for that IMO but shows that Rob had a good idea. Good ones are always copied, I guess! Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 533 Registered: 2-2002 |
Seems pretty low to me | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3122 Registered: 6-2001 |
Why did he do that? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5121 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ohh, for those that don't know I started www.lamborghinichat.com several months ago at the request of several lambo enthusiasts on this site. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5120 Registered: 12-2000 |
LOL, that's JRV, he started www.lamborghini-talk.com too. Same software and similar topics. I'll let others comment on this. JRV? | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 532 Registered: 2-2002 |
What is the deal with Ferrari-talk.com being started by a member here? Isn't that a slap in the face to Rob? |