| Author | Message | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 383 Registered: 2-2001 |
Those who own both 12's and 8's must be be pretty conflicted in the conveniently categorized world of Dino Frank. "Gold chain crowd" or "true enthusiast"? Is there a lesser of two geeks in this dilemma? For many of the reasons stated, would go 360 today, Jay. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2366 Registered: 9-2001 |
Clax, I don't only admire V12 Ferraris. But, between a 360 and a 550 the 550 is the superior car IMHO. | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
Parker, Granted, the 456 is a 2+2, but to only admire V12 Ferrari's seems a bit strange to me. I don't buy a car for investment value. I buy them for enjoyment. If you've driven a 360 Spider, you know what I mean. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1882 Registered: 6-2001 |
If you get the 360, make sure the build date is after 10/1. That will give you a 04 car, and just maybe a model with a few changes. My build date will be in October, with Dec or Jan delivery. Art | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 389 Registered: 3-2001 |
JD, I agree with what you say to an extent, clearly they aren't going to warrant factors beyond their control (allocation reduction) and that's fair enough....I do believe I can reach a mutually agreeable position.... Maybe I'm old fashioned, but with a commitment from me to spend $300,000 ($100,000 now & probably $200,000 for a 420) on cars in the next 2.5-3 years I should be able to expect a commitment from them....(it's not like cars are flying off the lot at the moment)....In the end, these are just consumer goods, and as a consumer I'll get what I want or I'll go somewhere else! | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2003 |
"The Prodrive 550 has a bored out engine with a mostly tube-frame chassis. " Indeed: "not much of anything Italian remains of the original 550 Maranello by the time Prodrive finishes ...." Forza, August 2003, p 53. For me, the only answer is one of each, they are very different cars. Regards, Will (gold chain wearing non-enthusiast?) PS - Jay, I would take the 360 to get the 420, and to have fun sooner rather than later, as others have suggested. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2362 Registered: 9-2001 |
Clax, the 456 is a 2+2 . Ferrari 2+2 cars have always depreciated much faster and much more than their two seater counterparts. See the 330GT 2+2, 365GTC4, 400, 412 and Mondial as examples . | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2002 |
I could have bought a 360, 550, or 575. I chose the 360 Spider. I'll never look back. The 550 and 575 are nice cars, but they just don't appeal to me nearly as much as the 360. And quite frankly, they aren't even in the same classification. Parker, if your theory is true (V12 vs. V8), why is it that the 355 continues to be a more sought after car than the 456, despite the fact that the "newness of the design" has worn off? Cars are not judged by cylinder count alone. I look at the whole package. Regarding depreciation, I expect that the 360 will depreciate. I expect that most Ferrari's will depreciate (including the 550 & 575), with the exception of a handful of rare F-Cars (both V8's and V12's). | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1286 Registered: 8-2001 |
The Prodrive 550 has a bored out engine with a mostly tube-frame chassis. The 360GT has many tweaks but it's closer to the production car than the 550 racer. Yes, the 550 is having incredible successes of late, but the important part is the championship at the end of the year. The 360 had done it previously on 2 continents. I just hope they do well in Le Mans. Both 550 and 360. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2361 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jeff, FYI the past is almost always an indicator on what to expect in the future. As I posted below, in the 1970s 308s were selling for over twice as much as Daytonas. And yes, there was a waiting list for 308s then just like for 360s now. But, when the newness of the 308 design wore off, enthusiast realized the Daytona was the better car and their prices shot through the roof. I predict the same will happen with the 550/575 series as compared to the 360/420 series. Willis, if you will check the 550 has been just as successful if not more so than the 360 in racing in its class. I remember at Road Atlanta last Fall the ProDrive 550s were much faster around the track than any of the 360s. But I guess thats just facts and some people aren't interested in the truth unless it mimics their own vision of reality however misguided. And, I never said the 360 was unworthy. I only stated my opinion that the 550 is the better car and the better value for the money. For that matter, the 550 is the better car than my own Boxer even though I like my Boxer just fine. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1285 Registered: 8-2001 |
Long time enthusiast and first time F-car owner here. I don't wear chains or rings of any kind. So why buy a 360? Let's see...razor sharp handling, great charismatic engine (even more so with a Tubi), incorporate Ferrari's racing technologies (underbody aero, F1 system, etc), all aluminum construction, proven success on the race track (2002 Grand Am GT Champ, 2001 FIA NGT Champ), and, don't forget, a work-of-art body style. Name one thing that make the 360 unworthy. If depreciation and investment are more important than the short list above, then don't bother buying a Ferrari. Ever! | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2003 |
Actually, Frank, I enjoy both immensely. They both serve my Ferrari fetish in different ways  One, when I want to go out on the town with my better half, or cruising long distances in extreme style and relative comfort. The other, for when I feel the need to do highspeed runs up to the mountains or through back country roads. Not to mention its an extreme "chick magnet"! | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 190 Registered: 2-2001 |
Frank You have been spouting this crap for years. And for years you have been wrong. Yes, someday the 360 WILL depreciate but real fact is the 550/575's are depreciating like a rock as we speak. Heck, the 456 and 575 are the "bastard" children of Ferrari. The dealers don't want them new or used. If the V12 were the answer, Ferrari whould shut down the V8 line and build nothing but 12's. Quit living in the past. Who cares what happened in the 70's. Try changing your tv channel from TV Land and mixing in a little MTV, Dawson's Creek, and Tech Tv and see where the world is going. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2357 Registered: 9-2001 |
Kuzi, I prefer platinum too. As an owner of both you have to admit that the 360 is the flashy car of the two that seems to attract the first time Ferrari buyer rather than the enthusiast. The 360 is the Lambo-like flashy car of the Ferrari line. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Member Username: Davel Post Number: 280 Registered: 7-2001 |
I would hope Ferrari would build the 420 given the buzz and press for the Gallardo. Ferrari needs to compete with this car. The write ups have been impressive and it would be nice to see the Ferrari shoot back. If they build the 420 Im sure it will be a good one values not withstanding in the longer term. | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 192 Registered: 3-2003 |
I hate gold chains.........I prefer platinum | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2355 Registered: 9-2001 |
The 360 will depreciate like a rock just like all other industrial mass produced Italian V8 cars. If you want an investment, buy real estate ! For the same money you can buy a 550 which is mountains more car than the 360. And, it has a V12 like God and Enzo intended. Further, while it appears to be depreciating more now, once the gold chain crowd buys all the 360s/420s they want, the value of the 550/575 will level off and maybe even appreciate as they are much more rare and much more car. If you were around in the 1970s you saw 308s selling for two to three times as much as you could get a Daytona for at the time. But, they made a lot more 308s than Daytonas and look at their respective values now. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2003 |
I've got a different slant on this topic. You might see if you could get a Stradale instead of the regular 360. Will you loose less than on a regular 360, IMO yes. Definately buy someyhing now and ask to be put on the list for the replacement of the 360. I agree with several posters that the scarcity of the 420 will keep the values steady to higher of the 360 especially one with low miles and warranty left of it. | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jason The letter is a good idea but no dealer is going to sign one without a lot of contingencies to protect themselves. Every dealer knows that their car allocation is not guareented. FNA on a whim can cut a dealer's allocation for no valid reason or something like Sept 11 happens etc, etc. The dealers have plenty of customers without having to sign a letter of guareented delivery. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 387 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jake, You make the letter time contingent...i.e within 6-9 months of release.....it makes position on the list irrelevant | ||
| Duncan McCloud (Duncan)
New member Username: Duncan Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2003 |
If I were in your position I would buy a 2002 360 now and drive it. This will be cheaper than a new car and protect you somewhat against depreciation, with two years left on the warranty. You can then sell it in 2005 when the 420 shows up. You may wish to skip the first year the 420 is available anyway as such a year often has problems. They didn't get the shift computer right on the 360 F1's until 2002. | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jason-- How will a letter prevent you from getting "bumped" ? You'll never know how many people the dealer has skipped around you. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 386 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dave, Your comments are pretty much what I have found...FBH, won't take a deposit (don't want to give them the business anyway) Tonkin won't take a deposit from outside their market area, and Auto Gallery, have their lists based on model type and transmission ($5000 deposit).... Mike...Thanks for your comments, I think that is excellant advise....I just had to send my 360 back to the UK, and I want to put my name down for the replacement...I need an interim car (Maserati or Porsche) so I'll definately make my purchase of the car contingent on a satisfactory letter regarding the 420 (or whatever it'll be called)....My biggest concern was the 'bumping' that you described...a letter would be a good way of making sure it doesn't happen | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 579 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jay, I suspect some of the posters here have never bought or ordered a new car so much of what is said is speculation or opinion. Different dealers have different policies, but I have a deposit on a 360 replacement and asked "what if a 360 buyer decides he would rather have the replacement?". Answer was, he goes to the end of the list. Orders that are specifically for the replacement get first crack. The other scenario was if the dealer is unable to deliver a 360 before the new model. Then the buyer is rolled over to the front of new model list. This is a very fair policy IMO. I would suggest you don't ask us, but talk to your dealer. As a personal opinion........life is short, there will always be a newer, potentially better model on the horizon. There are a lot of good reasons to take the 360 delivery, not the least of which is good relations with your local dealer. Dave | ||
| Steve (I_love_ferraris)
New member Username: I_love_ferraris Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2003 |
Buy the 360. Ferrari might not even make the 420. Even if they do, the price would be sky high. Not saying that the price of a Farrari now is cheap. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4455 Registered: 8-2002 |
i agree with the "now" sayers... Tomorrow is not a guarantee... Live for the moment (with a modicum of preparatory investment in the possibility of a tomorrow). | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1510 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm with Wm. Buy now. Enjoy. Don't look back. Driving is a lot more fun than waiting. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 187 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks to everyone for your replies and good thoughts! You're right... even if/when the replacement model comes out in 2005/2006, there will be a long wait list, so how could I possibly wait another 4-5 years or more!!?? No way. I'm definitely going to move forward! | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2003 |
You might want to wait after the first year of production on the new auto anyways, so they can sort out some of the bugs........therefore take delivery of the 360 now.........you won't regret it! | ||
| Matty (Liquid)
New member Username: Liquid Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2002 |
Is the replacement for the 360 confirmed that it will be called the 420? I've heard rumors that it will be replaced w/ a 4.0 V10 engine(400 Monza)? I have extremely high expectations for 400-420. I've always been a fan of the V-8's minus the 348 as the 12's never really jumped out at me. To pay over 160K for an automobile I feel the car must be to perfection in the owners eyes. Its gonna be hard for Ferrari to one up the 360 but they seem to always get it right. Like the others have said I would def. take delivery of your 360 esp. if you've been waiting over 3yrs. If you find the replacement more to your liking I'm sure the the wait will be shorter since you've established a friendship w/ your dealer. I plan on getting on the wait list at the end of this summer for the baby Aston Martin(AMV8). If the 400-420 lives up to its hype I'll have no problem cancelling that order & getting on the probable long list for the 360 replacement. Good Luck, Matt | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Junior Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 212 Registered: 12-2002 |
I'd definitely get the 360 now... reasons? 1) Chances are you'll get a 420 quicker as a 360 owner than as some joe off the street. Talk to the dealer - get something IN WRITING as part of the sale (like a contract to buy a 420 at MSRP - make sure there is a time limit on when they can deliver - ie within 9 or 12 months of release, or you'll get perpetually bumped for >MSRP paying customers) 2) The 420 will be unobtainable for some time after it's release - meaning 360 prices should stay strong. Then you have a 420 coming, and still have the option to keep the 360 (nothing lost there) so its the best of both worlds. 3) There is no confirmation on when the 420 will be available here - and it will be hard to get for a LONG time - so since you're not a "premium customer" (not having a long history or purchases from that dealer), you won't be able to get one for a while after they are out anyway. You're not looking at just 18 months, more likely 2-3 years or maybe more. Buy the 360 now... get some sort of commitment on a 420 that is better than someone off the street could get (i.e. leverage this purchase to get it). Keep your ear to the ground and in tune with the 360 market... you'll know a lot more in the next 18 mo than you will now, and a 360 that probably hasn't lost much value, and an option to buy a 420 that is worth a lot of money | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 498 Registered: 3-2001 |
TomD....the fact that the Euro has rallied from 0.84ish USD to 1.17ish USD has no bearing on how they will price the car. Contrary to your comment, if Ferrari was concerned about losing sales due to the currency move, they would lower the price of the car. As the car is sourced in Italy, it is billed in Euros They are receiving the same amount of Euros...it just takes more USD to buy those Euros. If the car was priced in Euros, it makes the car more expensive to the buyers who hold USD, but it doesn't make the car more expensive to build. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2001 |
Though this is limited history, when the 360 first came out, demand greatly exceeded supply, and the asking prices for 360's were way above sticker. This actually caused 355's to appreciate (the good economy at the time didn't hurt). If you can get enough back issues of the Ferrari Market newsletter you can confirm this (it won't list 360 prices, but you can see the spike in 355 prices). Others on this board have posted similar effects with previous model changes. I may be in a similar situation to you, and I plan on getting the new 360. I don't think it will depreciate much, and if everyone get hot and bothered by the 420, and prices go through the roof, the cost of 360's will go up. In part because the easiest way to get on the 420 list (if you are a new Ferrari fan) is to buy a used 360 from a dealer (not the only way, but the easiest way). If the 420 buzz increases the number of folks wanting one, demand for 360's goes up, prices go up. I could forsee that a relatively new 360 (under warranty) with low miles might be worth more than you paid for it for a while after the 420 is introduced. Lastly, as others have said, a spot on the 420 list would be worth some "flippage" cash if you don't take the car. Bottom line, don't wait--drive a dream now. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, i'll offer up an opinion here, altho is worth noting i don't have anywhere near the $$ to be contemplating this predicament... * If you research it enough to determine exactly what it is you want(model, color, options/packages, etc)... * If you plan on keeping it forever(which also helps with the amortization of these rather expensive babies these days)...ok, maybe not FOREVER, how 'bout 20 yrs or so ? * If you end up really liking whatever car you do find... Then the only two things you really have to deal with are: * what do i want(and can afford) * how much is it gonna cost. Btw, this perspective also keeps one from getting hung up in the 'how much is it worth today', 'should i flip it NOW or keep it a month and watch it loose $10k' realm of frustration. OTOH, if $$ is no object, who cares, do whatever moves you, cuz it won't matter. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jay, My best guess for the new model would be late 2005 as a 2006 model year. I base that on a few things: Spoke to someone fairly high-up at Ferrari N/A about the possibility of a new model and he said the waiting lists are still extremely long and Ferrari is in no hurry to replace it. We know the 456 will be replaced next year, and the 575 should be replaced in the following year because sales have fallen off and you can basically get one right away. The main reason is this: Ferrari has stated that they are building 900 Challenge Stradales, and have also stated that they will limit production to 400 a year. My guess is, 2003my- 100 2004my- 400 2005my- 400 Some people say that Ferrari must upgrade the engine to compete with the Gallardo, etc..., but Ferrari has never really cared that their competition can beat them in a straight line, and probably never will (except the F50 and Enzo?). Paul | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1189 Registered: 12-2001 |
Buy the 360 and get an understanding and make a deposit to get a 420. If you wait to buy a ferrari until you get your hands on a 420 you will not be driving a ferrari for a while. Once the 420 actually arrives, then get rid of the 360, or sell the 420. You will be driving now, and still have the option to get the 420. I wouldn't worry too much about the depreciation since they all depreciate, and unless you are going to take the 420 and immediately flip it, none of these cars will command a premium for long if you actually drive them. (Yeah, i know that 360 spiders are still over sticker for delivery miles cars, but i wouldn't want to go to the trouble of getting one at sticker, and then not drive it, only to make, say 25k dollars? ). Its not that you "shouldn't be thinking" about future value, but with this perspective, you will freak with every rock nit and mile, as your "investment" goes down the drain. That's not my fantasy of ferrari ownership; sounds more like a nightmare. | ||
| TC (Houston) (Tec)
Junior Member Username: Tec Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2002 |
I see this is your first Ferrari. Are you sure you can even roll onto the top of the list for the 420 if you pass on the 360? It seems like the early run cars are usually reserved for the dealers best customers. It may be possible that your odds of getting one of the early 420's will be better if you purchased the 360 and are trading it in on the 420. That way you're a repeat customer (and the dealer has another car they get to sell). If you can get the 360 at sticker it probably won't lose much between now and then. Just a thought. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3852 Registered: 9-2001 |
I would imagine the new car will be significantly more expensive due to being the new model etc plus the euro has gone through the roof so on a constant dollar basis the the same price results in about 25% less for ferrari. They ain't going to like that so prices will go up | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 186 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hey guys (and gals)... I know this topic has been sliced and diced to death, but maybe we can get some fresh perspective on this. I've nearly navigated my way to the top of "the list" for an order on a brand new 360 Modena 6 speed for delivery in Oct or Nov or Dec. Of course, like you, I saw that little write-up in the most recent issue of Road & Track about the possible 420 Modena with 450+ horsepower. While I'm very excited about the prospect of buying a new 360, I can't help but wonder if I should wait another year until we get more definite word about a possible 420 Modena. FYI... this will be my first Ferrari. And I really plan to hold on to this car for a while. My worry is that shortly after I get my new 360, the 420 will come out and not only will my car rapidly depreciate, but all of a sudden I'll have "second best" and find myself wanting a 420. So, does anyone have any inside info or "strong intuition" regarding the timing of the release of the 420 (or whatever this revised/new model will be called)? Will it most likely be a 2005 model? Wonder how much more it will cost than the current 360? Also, what are your opinions regarding the future rate of depreciation of a 360 versus the 355, for example. I personally think that once the 360 is replaced with the next newer model, it should probably still hold it's value pretty well for the first few years at least, since it's been such a successful and highly sought after model. But who knows, I could be wrong (?) Anyone care to offer their opinion regarding the value of a Red 2003 360 Modena 6 speed with let's say 10,000 miles in the year 2007? Yes I know, shouldn't be thinking of the future value, as they all depreciate. But easier said than done when it's real hard earned dollars... |