| Author |
Message |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1804
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
In JRV's defense, I read the "Pansies" post and, knowing JRV's sometimes edgy sense of humor, took it as nothing more than a joke. As he stated, once the thread turned from humorous to an all-out bashing, it was deleted. Rob would've stuck it in the TOFAS file, JRV deleted it. They're different. The sites are different. Let's move on. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 627
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 11:11 pm: | |
JRV why not post the messages you deleted and let the people judge by it. Oh wait you said you eternally deleted them somewhere at the edge of the universe or something like that, good excuse.. |
Dan 360 (Dan360)
New member
Username: Dan360
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 5:24 pm: | |
Its great the way this thread has turned from full-on-1000 degree farenheit flame suit to a real engineering topic.
I have to say I just learned something, I knew about the route of Boxer and the cylinders "punching" each other as per the flat-4 diagram, but I never knew that the BB engine did not have a boxer stroke. Yet another trivial item to be stored in my brain to the frustration of my wife who believes there is already not enough space to recall most simple domestic requests... |
911 Fan (911fan)
New member
Username: 911fan
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Erich,
Thanks for the link. What a treasure trove of automotive info! It should make for some interesting reading this evening. I'm hoping to clear up my confusion about this and some other engine design issues once and for all!
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Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member
Username: Deleteall
Post Number: 343
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:50 pm: | |
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1795
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:50 pm: | |
"I think the crankshaft degrees refers not to the geometric angle between the cylinder banks"
Right. My point is that we weren't talking about crankshaft degrees. We we actually talking about the angle between the cylinder banks.
To answer your question, though, I BELIVE that a 180 degree crank is one that has the lobes placed 180 degrees from each other around the crank, thereby causing one piston to be at the top of its cylinder at the same time that its opposing piston is at the bottom of its cylinder. A 360 degree crank wound have them moving in synch. |
911 Fan (911fan)
New member
Username: 911fan
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:44 pm: | |
Wayne,
I think the crankshaft degrees refers not to the geometric angle between the cylinder banks but to the combustion cycle phase difference between a given piston and its mate in the opposing bank.
As we all know, a piston completes one complete combustion cycle (ie, intake, compression, power and exhaust) in 720 degrees of crank rotation.
So it seems to me that a 360 degree crankshaft should signify that a given piston is a half cycle (ie, 360 degrees) out of phase with its mate in the opposing bank. So if a piston is at the end of its intake stroke, its mate is at the end of its power stroke.
Similarly, a 180 degree crankshaft should signify that a given piston is a quarter cyle (ie, 180 degrees) out of phase with its mate in the opposing bank. So if a piston is at the end of its intake stroke, its mate is at the end of its compression stroke (or exhaust, depending on firing order, I'm guessing).
I hope some automotive engineer out there can clear this up for us! I haven't had much luck finding a prior thread with definitive info on this. Unfortunately, this thread's title doesn't make this the greatest place to pose this question!
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L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 3:01 pm: | |
911Fan: When we mention degrees here, we're not referring to the lobe placement on the crankshaft. We're referring to the degree of angle of the "V" caused by placement of the cylinder banks.
As for lobe placement, the "boxer" (4cyl) engine in my diagram appears to have a 180 degree crank, while the V-6 appears to have a 90 degree crank. Then again, I'm no engineer! |
911 Fan (911fan)
New member
Username: 911fan
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
Wayne,
Just to clarify...
Is it the case that the flat-4 in your diagram has a 360 degree crankshaft and the V6 has a 180 degree crankshaft? If not, I guess I'm really confused as to what the crankshaft degrees terminology actually refers to!
And thanks for the great animation!
|
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1789
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 1:01 pm: | |
"I think 180 degree V8 is an accepted term meaning the same thing as a flat 8."
Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever . Don't want to start another one of those "Driving Around at High RPM" threads! |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 835
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
Hahaha
Wayne, I LOVE the animations!
That said, I think 180 degree V8 is an accepted term meaning the same thing as a flat 8. You are right in that boxer is different though.
Cheers |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1788
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
"Those with a single conrod on each throw are called Horizontally Opposed engine architectures. Those with two conrods on each throw are called V-engines."
Both of these are "flat" engines. Some flat engines (like the Ferraris we're referring to) operate in the same manner as a V-shaped engine and others operate in the "boxer" configuration. See below:
Notice the piston movement in this V-6...
...as opposed to the "boxer" movement in this flat-4.
Ferrari's flat-12s operate in the "V" fashion (the same type of movement as a V-shaped engine), but are flat in archtecture. The confusion usually sets in when they are referred to as "boxer" engines (by the manufacturer, no less!) or as "180* V-12s." They are flat-12s that operate in the "V" fashion.
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Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 734
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
"To all of you who keep insisting that the Boxer engine is a 180* "V-12", a "V" engine is one who's cylinders are placed in a configuration similar to the letter "V," a letter which is represented by an angle of less than 180*. This is not a V: ___."
If you take this metric: then how do you differentiate between those flat 12s with a single connecting rod on each crank throw from those with two connecting rods on each crank throw?
Those with a single conrod on each throw are called Horizontally Opposed engine architectures.
Those with two conrods on each throw are called V-engines.
One can design and make a flat V8 and a flat V12 in either architecture.
This is NOT my OPINION; see "Design and Tuning of Competition engines"; which has been around since the late 1960 at least.
The two different architectures have vastly different ariflow characteristics inside the crankcase, different balance characteristics, and different stresses at eht bearings and journals.
But NOOOOO, you want to lump everything that looks flat into a single caragory; sorry, you are wrong on this topic. |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
YOU GO PAT...BE BAD WITH YOUR SELF..
BRUCE |
Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member
Username: Enzo
Post Number: 544
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 10:06 am: | |
Hey JRV what color is the sky in your world? I was talking about the thread you yanked and where calling Ferrari owners pansies. I know it might get confusing since you have been pretty busy yanking threads on your 2 copycat boards. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
Pat & Modman,
are you guys refering to this post?
http://www.lamborghini-talk.com/forum/messages/28/309.html?1054767251 |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1787
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 9:33 am: | |
"...all the boxers from the 365BB all the way to the 512M are 180 degree V12s or flat 12's."
"Flat 12" is right. To all of you who keep insisting that the Boxer engine is a 180* "V-12", a "V" engine is one who's cylinders are placed in a configuration similar to the letter "V," a letter which is represented by an angle of less than 180*. This is not a V: ___. |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 1935
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
PAT ALWAYS TELLS THE TRUTH..
BRUCE |
Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member
Username: Enzo
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
Thanks Modman. |
William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member
Username: Countachxx
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 7:01 am: | |
Jaime, all the boxers from the 365BB all the way to the 512M are 180 degree V12s or flat 12's. They are all based on engineer Forghieri's F1 winning flat 12 3 liter from the days of Niki Lauda I believe |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 827
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 3:01 am: | |
So modman, about those lambo lights...
I'll just start a thread in Other Italian.
Cheers |
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 2:04 am: | |
Ahhhh ok, I assumed he meant the block lay out and such. |
Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member
Username: Deleteall
Post Number: 341
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 1:06 am: | |
No, he's right it has a 180 degree/flat-plane crankshaft. It's what gives the Ferrari v8 its distinctive sound. |
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 12:56 am: | |
Ben Cannon
"The engine is a 180* V-8"
Dont you mean Flat 8? 180* engines are flat/box. Only Flat Fcar engines I know were the 512TR's. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 626
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:13 pm: | |
Oh, by the way, Pat (Pasqualini)was telling the truth as I can testify what I read on the other board.. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 625
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:10 pm: | |
I discovered this thread which led to my curiosity to have found a similar site and when I went to it I had let the other users know who I was and wanted to greet everyone and the next thing I said "Hey this site looks similar to F-Chat and the next day I checked it "Bam" it was gone, I did nothing wrong and all I got was an insult and another deleted message. I thought JRV was allright but now I know what a pus he really is. I had a question from Taek but I will not ever go to the lousy site or refer anyone to it and anyone who knows me would know I'm not a problem maker or start any type of flames but man this is the first time ever on any board to say what I really feel about how someone is. JRV you did it to yourself and you should be banned from this site but that is Robs decision. Your reply was weak and you need to check your replies carefully before doing so. I have checked at JRVs site and man there was some 2 faced •••• talking going on and I knew from the 2nd day that it was not a good community. And I must say out of all the sites I have visited, this is the best chat site and I have not seen anything as nice as this site. I believe if you plan on making a site, do it right, control it properly. JRV could've emailed me and told me the truth of why he did it but instead took his own actions the wrong way. Now this is truthfull of my saying and I'm not making this up in any way. Some users on this site already know what it is. JRV don't be mad at me cause you did it to yourself and all you need is a tombstone to finish it off.... Do everyone a favor and stop the bull****.....
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allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 590
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
I agree that the S2000 is a fun car, ive also owned a few Nsx's that were fun little cars, not bashing them.
Jeffrey, so your car was built on the same floor that great race cars were built. Not really, but ok if you think so. What parts does your Mondial share with any F1 car? Also, im not bashing your car, i happen to like those, although Ferrari owners rate it the worst Ferrari made, i dont. |
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