| Author | Message | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 861 Registered: 11-2002 |
Speaking of Porsche's... Why are they so thoroughly hated here then? Talk about KICK ASS racing heritage! Cheers | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2003 |
If James is right about exotics manufacturers going into the restoration business here, it will be very interesting. Mercedes is doing it too (building a restoration center in San Diego that will open later this year)and they will fabricate parts and perform total restorations. Anyway, the interesting thing will be in seeing how the factory restorations compare against the over restored cars we are used to seeing. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 572 Registered: 4-2002 |
I dunno Erich. Trying to explain why a great racing heritage for a certain make and/or model of car means alot to me is like explaining why I like 34C much more than 38D. All my reasons may be perfect for me and nonesense for someone else, and hey; thats fine. I love my 911 for how it drives and looks but also because of the fantastic racing heritage of the model. No other production based car had such a long and dominant racing career. The Daytona, while not as sucessful as the 911, also had a great racing career with class success at LeMans and many other events. To me, if a manufacturer wants to really prove that their wares are better than the competition.... the racetrack is the venue. Both Ferrari and Porsche have proven time and again through the years that their engineering and technology can take on and beat all competitors. A bunch of guys bought a competition spec Daytona from Ferrari, entered it in World Class racing events and won. Yes, that to me means something. If it does not to someone else, oh well no big deal. Besides its best not to apply too much reason to arguements such as this. Reason and Ferrari/Lambo dont go together very well! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1538 Registered: 10-2002 |
Erich "Should" isn't the right way to look at it. It either interests you or it doesn't. Unlike women there's no problem in loving a number of them. (cars) | ||
| Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member Username: Deleteall Post Number: 344 Registered: 12-2001 |
Why the hell should we care about "racing heritage"? Only time it matters is if you're driving a car that was actually raced. Not to start a flame war, but, the argument that, "Your car is faster and better but is lacking because it doesn't have ' racing heritage'." kinda sounds like a poseur argument. Might as well give us a dissertation on how your civic is better because it makes more horses per liter. P.S. No Allan didn't ask me to post this  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1536 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie Thanks for the links. The one I'm going with is a race car, alum exposed rivets, with a full race 327 with webbers. The engine is similar to the one in my Lola but a little smaller. (Lola 366CI) Best | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 859 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh, another thing... When I mentioned beating down and stuff. I don't think that Ferrari was at a stage in which they were winning, but that is purely speculative (because they were in some fronts so it depends on point of view). Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 858 Registered: 11-2002 |
Go for it Terry, just don't kick your own a$$ . I think there might be a point to the Miura ending Ferrari's front engine designs though. Although I'm guessing it's not for the reasons mentioned here. The Miura has been touted as the first "supercar", which I disagree (Bentley!!), but it did make quite a splash in it's debut. It is entirely reasonable that Ferrari, made a rational decision to outdo Lamborghini in it's own game. It isn't entirely out of the question to beat someone down even if you are already winning. Personally as I mentioned in another post, I don't think there is a clear winner or better car. I do think that marketing might have made the Daytona the last great front engine GT from Ferrari. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1535 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV I feel that way about F too, however I think FIAT in addition to saving F allowed Mr. Ferrari to keep control of racing which meant a lot to him and unlike VW hasn't done as much "Brand Engineering" esp. in racing. It's funny Ferrari is now more profitable and more valuable than it's parent and is semi spun off. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 570 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mark, I do not argue that the Muira ultimatley had influence on Ferrari to build a mid-engine flagship model. The 365BB was the result of this change in direction. I would also agree with most magazine reviews of the time and most modern comparisons of the Daytona vs BB... perhaps the change was viewed as necessary but the resulting cars were not necessarily a move forward. If your judging a Muira vs Daytona on a purely visual basis with the primary criteria being "exotic" looks, sure the Muira looks more outlandish and shocking. To me however (and apparently a few others) that does not mean it necessarily looks better. Of coarse the best solution to this dilema would be to own both. I would love to sit in the garage looking at my Muira and Daytona and argueing with myself over which looked better! Both are just such awesome cars! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1692 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mr. G. I've been holding back of course. I really do hate the argueing..although debates are fun. >>The only sad part about to me is that I do feel something is lost when a giant corp.<< Fiat saved Ferrari just as others have saved Lambo...I can buy parts from my IVECO Truck parts supplier and sell original Ferrari parts all day long...lol. You can't believe the fun I've been having showing certian Ferrari guys that drop buy the Truck Parts on their "Ferrari"...;-) No..this is not OT..it's right on topic and about the past of Ferrari and the present and most importantly the future. When Ferrari and Lambo are going at and for each other Car Nuts Win (I still think those V10 Blocks at the Ferrari Factory are for the next Street Car)...and maybe Win Big. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1233 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, have you seen these two? I remember that there use to be a guy who ran an ad in Hemmings every issue in the "B" car section looking for Bizzarini cars and parts. Wonder if he cornered the U.S. market? Check out these links. http://www.carclassic.com/html/AF66.htm http://www.carclassic.com/html/DF24.htm | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1534 Registered: 10-2002 |
Both of us are going to do the tour as well on thurs including laps at Leguna and Show/Lunch in Carmel. Really looking forwars to meeting all F Chatters. Best | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 857 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have to buy some spare digital camera batteries and memory cards. It's going to be a blast! Can't wait. So many things going on I wish that they would stretch it out for a month or something . Bizzarini's cars were fantastic. I had the chance to hear one first hand (it was a street version) but it's just outstanding. There is a basket case Bizzarini for sale somewhere in Europe too, I've heard. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1533 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie There's a very rare exposed rivet Bizzarini race car making the trip out to Pebble with my MK-IV we're sharing a transporter. Very special I'll get photo's for you. Best | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1232 Registered: 5-2002 |
I still want a Bizzarini. One of my all time favorites. Strange how he chose Corvette power for his Italian exotic. (wink, nudge, flame!) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 853 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, Lamborghini has already started their restoration program. They have completed a red 350 GT and have some clients who are tentatively thinking of restoring Miuras. The 350 they did was one the factory acquired and I think it's for sale right now, if it hasn't been bought already. It comes with a warranty, not sure on the time period though. As for the history lost, you are right. My father was ecstatic when Bentley placed 3rd their second "debut" at LM. But the victory is admittedly not the same. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1531 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wm In the article they talked about service and even went so far as to say, much like GM is in their "Redemption Adv." that they know they've been remiss in the past. I think with VW behind them it may be different. They also said they offer restoration and service at the factory for $50 an hour. It's interesting that Ferrari is also planning to offer restoration in the US as well as at the factory. As someone who's been involved in a bit of restoration I wonder if this is something that will work out. I think it will be interesting to see if VW can turn Lambo into a bussiness that makes economic sense. P and F have made it work but as my friends at Ford have found (losing over 88 million $ last year in their PAG: Jag,Aston,Land Rover, Volvo) it's harder than you might think. Jeff I think it's on topic as in involves the history of Ferrari and there's no question the midengined Muria hastened the Boxer. JRV The only sad part about to me is that I do feel something is lost when a giant corp. saves a ledgend as Lambo surely is. Bentley will probably win LeMans next week but to me a rebodied Audi is not the same as the Glorious Bentleys that that won before. Glory, History, are important. When I sit in the seat of my P4 and think about who sat in it before me it I feel very lucky. Mr. Lamborgini made some special cars as well. On this big planet of ours there's room for all of them. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2001 |
Terry- Why do you think the switch from Daytona to 512BB happened? Isn't it funny that the switch from front engine Ferrairs to mid engine happened in-between the Miura release? I think the Miura killed the front engine street car Ferrari's. Ferrair didn't want to be second best on the exotic scale. Daytona 68-74 Miura 1966? 512BB 1973? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1202 Registered: 12-2001 |
Man, i'm really stuck on this one, cause i actually think Allan's right. The "which one is better" seems to be pointless. Why are we determined to establish that the Ferrari is better? To please ourselves? I've never owned a Lambo, but i don't think they are junk. Even if they were junk, there are alot of great cars that, purely on the basis of design alone, deserve to be acknowledged. And, i still think, the difference may rest more in the driver than the car in many instances... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 852 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arlie, Trace the heritage of Lamborghinis and they are not based on trucks like some members of this post are so quick to point out. Since you are the first to present it in a semi-decent manner, I think you merit an educated resopnse. From my understanding from the books I've read, articles I've read etc... When Lamborghini set out to build his supercar, there was a benchmark. Admittedly this benchmark was Ferrari. As a wealthy industrialist what he did is throw money at the problem. He recruited an all-star team to build his first model and some subsequent models as well. His dream team was Giotto Bizzarini (Ferrari 250GTO fame), Giampaolo Dallara, Paolo Stanzani, and later Bob Wallace. Read: the best Ferrari and Maserati had to offer (which is why I laugh at Jeff's comment about his beloved Merak). Lamborghini's initial roots are deep into some very qualified and tried race personnel and exotic car gurus. Ferruccio supplied the tools and the financial backing. So Lamborghini may not have won any F1 races, but that is because it was not their raison d'etre. They did try with dismal results at one point though. Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1691 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Sure they made/make cool cars, but they hardly seem to have the heritage and background that Ferrari has<< guess you haven't kept up with the racing boat scene. >>Even without me, you guys argue over Ferrari's and Lambos<< Competition improves the breed. If the world gets better cars because of the competition then 'we' all win. WINNING is a good thing. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 566 Registered: 4-2002 |
Their is not great Lambo racing heritage. I agree they make some really cool cars... but they dont carry the Ferrari mystique for me. As to a Muira "out classing" a Daytona.... what have you been smoking? Give me one performance category for which the Muira will outclass a Daytona? Or perhaps you would compare the competition histories of the two cars to demonstrate your point? Ooooops. Im not slamming a Muira at all, they are incredible cars and one of my favorites. I dont get the whole "this kind of car is better than any other" arguement anyhow. I love them all. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1940 Registered: 4-2002 |
STAY OUT OF IT ALAN, WE DONT WANT 400 POSTS... | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 594 Registered: 6-2002 |
Even without me, you guys argue over Ferrari's and Lambos. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1231 Registered: 5-2002 |
OK, I'll jump into the fray with my two bit observation. Not being a total Ferrari buff, I still must acknowledge the presence of Ferrari throughout racing history. And when I remember all the films and movies that I've seen about auto racing, one name is always present; Ferrari. And one name is never present; Lamborghini. Sure they made/make cool cars, but they hardly seem to have the heritage and background that Ferrari has. I remember listening to some old 33 LP records recorded at LeMans and Sebring in the 50s and 60s. Incredible sounds of Ferraris, Lolas, BRMs, etc. Can't say that I remember ever listening to a single Lamborghini on any of those records. So where's the great Lambo racing heritage??? | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2003 |
And one of the best lines I ever read about the Daytona vs. Miura competition came from Road & Track in its October 1970 issue. They preferred the Daytona. "The fastest--and best--GT is not necessarily the most exotic." | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1201 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jeffrey Wolfe: you made your point on the off-topic issue, going on to dump on L cars seems to be an echo of one of your complaints. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 848 Registered: 11-2002 |
Actually Mark, Ferruccio started Lamborghini because he thought that building the ultimate sports car would make him money. I've read this in various sources and Jim's post is exactly about that. Cheers | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 484 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeffery, If you know your history. This topic is about Ferrari. One of the best reads I ever had from a British mag (Classic and Sportscar) was about how the Lamborghini so out-classed the Ferrari Daytona that it forced old man Ferrari to come up with the 512BB Boxter. Enzo was never the smartest business man. Just knew when to give-in when the writing was on the wall. Poor Frank can blame Lamborghini for all the fighting he has to do on F-chat about only real ferraris being- front enginee 12's. Old man Ferrari created Lamborghini by being rude to one of his rich customers. Then Lamo got sweet justice forcing Enzo to open his eyes (and start making mid engine cars). | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 846 Registered: 11-2002 |
How fitting there's a thread about JRV started by another respected old time FChat member! http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/262187.html?1054858182 Jeff, Stop trying to stir something up please. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 845 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff, From my experience in this board. JRV even if abrasive at times has provided a lot of very valuable information. Aside from JRV, The topic of the discussion is Ferrari and Lamborghini and their respective owners. Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
New member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2003 |
HUmmm... let's see. MAserati has a longer racing and production history than Ferrari and actually produced some very historical cars. Remind me again... who raced for lambo in F1? or at Lemans? Thats right... they were too busy looking for someone to buy them out of chapter 13 for the 10th time.And I am pretty sure that more Meraks were produced than totals of Urracos and Jalpas combined. | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2002 |
"The Urraco and Jalpa were jokes that died on the vine." This from someone who owns a Citroen Merak? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
New member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2003 |
Shouldn't this be listed in the off topic section... or on JRV's many other boards that waste space on Lambo's? They are very nice cars and it's great that after having sooo many owners over the years I am happy they are finally making a good product. But let's get real again.... Ferrai is the topic of this board. Remember... a car that has had a constant history of production... Lambo could not even produce a 2 seater to compete with the 308 series. The Urraco and Jalpa were jokes that died on the vine. And with yet again a new owner and outside designers it's really not the same as a pure bred Ferrari. Time to grow up and stop the envy. Just like the McClaren and Saleen... Lambos are fun cars... but they are not and never will be Ferrari's. And JRV... it's not very cool to come here and try to be a wonderful , helpful guy and then go back to your own rip off board and let a bunch of weasles slam Ferrari owners. Pick a side fellow. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 844 Registered: 11-2002 |
Barchetta Murcielago was OK'd?! Hmmm...might be time to get another. At least fools won't be able to sit on the roof... WHart, what's this I hear? Lamborghinis and Porsches dancing in your head? C'mon try it out. You'll like it! The only part you'll need support with is the shifter after all. Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1690 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>And, what about service? The dealer in NY strikes me as little more than a showroom<< that's fairly typical or they will have a dual purpose tech with Velcro Patches for the times a Lambo rolls in..;-)... across the majority of the historical landscape there have never been enough cars, getting enough miles to warrant real service departments from a profit standpoint...so there are only a few guys that had what it took to stick after it come thick or thin. maybe times are changing? but I have this feeling that expert Lambo Techs won't be very easy to find since they're all long ago self employed..;-)... realisticaly things should improve but I wouldn't expect any miracles. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1196 Registered: 12-2001 |
And, what about service? The dealer in NY strikes me as little more than a showroom. That's one of the biggest concerns i have about owning one. I also wonder if the baby lambo will in some ways be more appealing due to its (presumably) smaller size. I like the look of the Murcie, but it also strikes me as a big ol car, wide (yeah, i know, Allan for real men only). And, i would assume parts availability would be a real thing now, with Audi at the helm (and bankrolling the enterprise), compared with the financial roller coaster ride the company took for virtually all of its existence. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1689 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>hoped to build 1200 baby and 450 Merci's including a few "Barchetta Merci's". Autoweek seemed impressed. << as I am as well. For a company that could barely build 300 cars a year (on a good year) upping production that much is incredible. I think Lamborhini is back and back big. Now if they can just find a way to make more than one of each part they'll really be smokin!!! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1530 Registered: 10-2002 |
According to this weeks "Autoweek" Mr. Lamborgini thought the driveline noise in his Ferrari was too high and he asked for a private moment with Mr. Ferrari to discuss it. He was politely refused an audience with Mr.Ferrari. The arguement we've all heard about never hapened. Mr. Lamborgini simply deceided to build his own cars. The article also said the new Lambo was trying to be very owner helpfull and that they hoped to build 1200 baby and 450 Merci's including a few "Barchetta Merci's". Autoweek seemed impressed. |