| Author | Message | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1237 Registered: 5-2002 |
Gerald said: "Find me a source of verifiable, accurate, Ferrari selling prices, for all models, in sufficient quantity and with a broad geographic range to be statistically viable, and I will use them." I think Gerald is calling the bluff on the entire collector car world with that statement. Everybody TALKS a big TALK about what this car or that car or THEIR car is worth, but the actual selling price is quietly and confidentially shrouded in mystery. Just because some Bozo asks $250,000 for his Ferrari or $200,000 for his Cobra or $100,000 for his Corvette doesn't mean he will ever get anywhere near that amount. But in order to keep prices artificially high, the ACTUAL selling price must be cloaked in mystery. Wouldn't ever want to actually tell the truth. I think there are a multitude of reasons for any particular person not revealing selling prices of their cars. Embarassing financial reasons might necessitate a sale and/or it might be advantageous to keep the "tax man" in the dark about the selling price, least the price versus "capital gain" rear its ugly head at a later date. All things considered, I think most of the collector car wheeler dealers are a bunch of money grubbing rednecks who do everything they can to "intercept" a car and prevent it from selling privately betweeen individuals. Otherwise the "dealer" would fail to gouge a big fat profit from the sale. Practically all the Corvettes, Musclecars, Mustangs, Ferraris, etc, are all in the hands of wheeler dealer types who have done their best to corner the market to their advantage. They couldn't care less about YOU purchasing the car of your dreams as long as they get their fat percentage of the cut. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 130 Registered: 3-2002 |
I would still like to see the 330 GTC index be higher. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1808 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, thanks! | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Junior Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 236 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi Adrian, Sure, I can hook you up with the local FCA guys for what's available or my mechanic who only works on Ferraris and has lots of customers who may want to sell. As you may or may not know the local dealership Brian Jessel is no more. I'll be meeting up with the club next weekend with some other fellow f-chatters so I'll get their business cards for you. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2003 |
How we calculate the Asking Price Index has been explained many times in the FML. It is the most cussed and discussed aspect of the publication. Yet it is the one thing I have the least control over. The figures in the Asking Price Index are calculated using PUBLISHED ASKING PRICES. They are NOT my numbers. They are the numbers the Ferrari selling community (i.e. you) put down, in print, for Ferraris they are trying to sell. In other words, while the FML Asking Price Index numbers are routinely criticized by the Ferrari public they are the Ferrari public's own numbers. These are not MY numbers, they are YOUR numbers! I do not use just the ads in the Ferrari Market Letter for these figures. I use other published asking prices as well. Every two weeks all these asking prices are plugged into a table and then the asking price index is calculated. But it is not a simple arithmetic average. The formula first does a simple arithmetic average, and then using that figure eliminates any prices that are unrepresentative, specifically those that fall above or below our 50 percent rule. This eliminates the over-restored unrealistically priced garage queens as well as the rust-bucket restoration projects. There is also a time factor involved, in that the asking prices over the past three months (six issues) are also factored in on a declining scale. There are flaws in the system. Because of space limitations we do not break out the models by year, which can be important on newer models although it is irrelevant on the older cars. Nor do variations come into consideration, i.e. a short nose steel body three carb open driveshaft 275 GTB is lumped in with a long nose alloy body six carb torque tube 275 GTB. Let me explain the PURPOSE of the Asking Price Index which, by the way, has been published in the FML in one form or another as it was refined, for over 25 years. It was never intended to hold your hand and tell you what you should pay for a Ferrari. It was intended to show price trends. If asking prices are going up, then retail prices are almost certainly going up. If asking prices are going down, then retail prices are almost certainly going down. Many Ferrari buyers are concerned about such trends. Many of them still think Ferraris make good investments, or they at least don't want their car to devaluate too fast. One way to use the FML Asking Price Index though is to simply consider this: If you are looking at a particular Ferrari and the seller's asking price is way out of line with the FML API then simply ask WHY? Is it lower because there is something wrong with the car? Or is it higher because it is a pristine, concours-winning 99.5 point car? But if you want a value guide then buy a value guide. There are two excellent ones out there (although they get their fair share of criticism as well): The Black Book's Cars of Particular Interest Collectible Vehicle Value Guide published quarterly and the N.A.D.A. Classic, Collectible, and Special Interest Car Appraisal Guide. I am aware that in general the FML API figures are "too high" if you insist on ignoring the fact they are ASKING PRICES and not RETAIL PRICES. But isn't it a given fact that "nobody pays asking price"? I thought that haggling on the purchase price and getting the seller to drop the price was part of the buying process! Finally, I am often asked why I don't use selling prices. I have been making this offer for years and to date nobody has come up with an answer. Find me a source of verifiable, accurate, Ferrari selling prices, for all models, in sufficient quantity and with a broad geographic range to be statistically viable, and I will use them. | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Junior Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 150 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lawrence, I need to make a trip out there! Prices in Toronto are usually much higher than I see in the US. e.g. 95 355 avg mileage, vg-vg+ cond, $100 US. Valves/headers not done. 348 Spiders in vg-mint $95k US. Lawrence, any leads in Vancouver? Is there a way for me to find Fcars for sale? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1204 Registered: 12-2001 |
Isn't part of the answer that the condition of the cars reflected ranges from dogbone to pristine? | ||
| Edvar van Daalen (Evandaalen)
Junior Member Username: Evandaalen Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'm sure that "cLyde" of the FerrariList (Dennis knows who I'm talking about) would love to know this too! He really 'hates' the Asking Price Indexes in FML and Cavallino. See recent posts on the FerrariList. He think the prices in the indexes are way too high .... but I think he's wrong about that. I think Gerald doesn't make those numbers up: it's indeed a calculation of different prices. But I would love an explanation too ... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1806 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks, Dennis. I found it in the Ferrari List archives but, in order to view the message, I have to join the list. Even so, I could've simply emailed Gerald with my question, but I knew that the topic had come up a few times in the past and that others here were would want to know the answer as well. In fact, I actually sent Gerald an email with a link to this thread soon after I posted it, so that he wouldn't miss it tomorrow. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2003 |
In case Gerald doesn't see this post, Wayne, go to www.ferrarilist.com, then the archives, and enter "Gerald" as the "e-mail" search term. You'll find a few comments from him about the Asking Price Index and how it's calculated. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Junior Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 230 Registered: 8-2002 |
I tend to agree with you Scott on geographic location. Up here in Western Canada I think the prices are lower here than in the states although our dollar is steadily gaining ground on the US greenback  For example, I know there's a black/tan 1988 328GTS US spec car here for sale. I't's got approx 19,000 miles has all books plus at least recent records. It apparently has had the 15K service done. The front bumper was replaced because the previous owner hit a racoon at high speed. I was told I can get it for between 50 - 55K CDN which is about 40K US which is not a bad deal. I've seen the car and it's in beautiful shape. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 155 Registered: 6-2001 |
On the more recent cars (512TR/348 and on) the values have been high, in my experience. Though that was one year ago, and the market may be different. Plus, I am more and more convinced that Ferrari prices have quite a bit of geographic influence. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 129 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think the 330 GTC index value seems low also compared to what I have been seeing lately. Of course I may not be totaly unbiased in my feeling on the worth of these cars. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1800 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sorry to put you on the spot here, Gerald, but I've noticed a lot of F-Chatters who think that the values in the "Asking Price Index" are high (even for "asking" prices) while I've seen just the opposite. Looking through an issue at, say, the Lussos offered for sale, the index value seems to be much lower than an average of their asking prices (don't have an issue here to reference--just going on memory). Can you please explain to all of us how you calculate the figures in FML's "Asking Price Index?" |