| Author |
Message |
Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:44 am: | |
Thanks for all your educational comment & sharing.
Like I said, I am almost Paranoia, and will officially be next week unless something happens.
Yoda Handa & Obi One Doody, I have made an offer, and the offer seems to be accepted. I just cannot get hold of the car!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, I haven't done PPI or paid any yet, so I cannot complain too much. The owner is getting my phone message about 30 times a day (yes, number is exaggerated but that's how I feel)
Until I get the car, I will be obsessed. This is the way I drive myself to something new, and drive my family to different rooms. My wife said "Ferrari IS your obsession". (sigh) W/out this sight to spill my worries, I would be...... See I don't even know what I'll be doing. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
yoshi - i have to agree with dave a bit on this one - i think it's time to, as nike would say, "just do it" :-).
that said, you actually do ask a fair question. it is possible that during a compression or leakdown that something could in fact go wrong with the vehicle. however, since (a) it's not your vehicle and (b) the owner has willingly and voluntarily submitted it for inspection, it just isn't your problem.
THAT said, this is where you want to be careful about deposits. there are plenty of places in FL (sorry to pick on FL - but they do seem to have the absolute worst laws in this regard) where you could theoretically fork over $5K as a deposit pre-PPI, then something goes wrong in the PPI process (either due directly to the PPI; due to incompetence of the guy getting the car to and fro; due to bad luck; or due to an act of g-d) and they might refuse to return all or some of your deposit. this would obviously suck. in states with reasonable laws about this sort of thing (eg: MA - just don't get me started on the auto INSURANCE laws) a dealer could easily lose their license to sell cars if they refused to return such a deposit.
doody. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 948
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 6:36 pm: | |
No problemo Matt,
For your situation, I would have to agree "CARFAX SUCKS!" (big time, I might add) And I would be very concerned that they are unwilling to update bad info.
But for the majority of situations, it can add some helpful information, that should be (carefully) considered... |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 385
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 5:16 pm: | |
You can use it at your discretion, as you would any information. With everything you compile while doing your due dilegence, in the end, does the whole "story" add up? Or are there inconsistencies? That is always my question. |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 503
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 5:13 pm: | |
Carfax had false info on my last car. The DMV supplied a note to Carfax, which told Carfax that they were wrong. After all that, Carfax would still not change what they had on their records. I lost a potential sale of my car due to this incorrect info. Luckly, the person who I sold the car to understood the situation, and I was able to get the price I was looking for.
If Carfax is sent info from the NY DMV, they should change their records.....so (nothing personal) I stand by my previous comments....
CARFAX SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 946
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:50 pm: | |
Matt, I would disagree. Doody has it about right, Carfax can offer useful information, but must be taken with a "grain of salt" and can contribute additional information to the overall analysis of a car. Yup, they can have errors, so can a PPI, so be aware of that. I think there have been more instances of "false positives" than "false negatives" though.... |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 502
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
CARFAX SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 945
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
Yoshi-san,
Time to buy a Ferrari and move on...
This is becoming an obsession! :-)
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Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
Doody, what I meant was the car prior to purchase. When PPI is running, the car is still owned by a seller, right? Due to PPI (like compression test busted valve or seals), if something went wrong, is Inspector be responsible? or the owner or me who requested PPI?
Is there any Ferrari certified, but independent mechanics out there? Ferrari-certified mechanics would work for Ferrari dealer, I thought. Is this not true?
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Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 5:37 am: | |
as to responsibility, if you buy from a dealer you can negotiate some period of coverage. if you buy from an individual, you probably can't assume any reliable coverage.
remember, stuff goes wrong on these cars. they are not poster children for triple-9s (or whatever it's called) modern manufacturing techniques.
good luck - hope the PPI works out well. feel free to post the info here for commentary.
doody. |
Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 4:20 am: | |
I was taking shower and thought of one possible problem. If the car was running w/out any problem prior to PPI, and then started having problem after PPI was done or during PPI something went wrong, who would be responsible normally? All those sleepless night is getting to me, and I may sound like paranoia.....
Steve, I can't believe that! For someone else's error, your friend will have problem when he/she tries to sell it. Horror story.....
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Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member
Username: Steve308gtsi
Post Number: 98
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 1:19 am: | |
Doody,
The same thing happened to me as your friend. When I had one of my cars emission tested instead of typing in 9600 miles the idiot there typed in 96000. Now on carfax it shows 96000 and the car only has a little over 10000. I really don't depend on carfax too much.
They try and market it like you will know if the car was ever in an accident. When in fact they can maybe only catch a salvage title. Meaning the car was totaled. So if you had $20k damage on a $50k car and your insurance fixed it without totaling it they (carfax)never find out. Bottom line use it for what it's worth but don't go by it 100%. |
Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:46 pm: | |
Doody, you are what Obi One is to Skywalker to me. I called Norwood to run PPI for me today. James & Mike of Norwood has been very helpful, and the broker was recommended by them at our first encounter. The car I'm making an offer is to be brought there this week by the owner. No talk of deposit has been made, so I didn't know anything about that! This is going to take place in Texas.
Search of my Ferrari was fun at the beginning, but it is getting frustrating as I don't like waiting. Although along with some Fchat's member's e-mail & threads comment really helped to ease my frustration. Thank you! |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
in general, yes, you should still do a PPI. the newer the car maybe the less you might need it, but if you're spending real money it's a tiny bit extra very well spent.
the seller may require a deposit before they'll start the process of any PPI (there's some hassle involved - they have to get the car to the mechanic (you don't want their mechanics doing the PPI - obvious conflict of interst)). be careful about deposits in states like FL that are not as refundable as the seller might state! ask here if you don't know about a particular state.
if the car is still under factory warranty maybe you can do without a PPI, but if it's still under warranty you're talking a serious money car, so a a few hundred is chump change in the final math.
if you're buying remotely there's no rational way around the PPI, IMO.
my only suggestion contrary to the whole PPI thing would be if you're buying from a local dealer, the car has full service history, they're going to give you a reasonable warranty, and you intend to service it there and tell them that. this is the sort of relationship-building stuff where you may very well get "treated right" long-term. though there are zero guarantees.
once you buy it you own it and they have virtually no liability to do anything at all. if you buy it remotely you're possibly doubly-screwed "sure, we'll fix it, just bring it in!". if you can do a PPI, then you can negotiate fixes into the process.
don't get overly emotional about some of the PPI crap that will come back. leather ages and wears. if a car has been on a road it will have some chips or whatnot. wheels get curbed. tires lose rubber. a good PPI will cover some silly stuff - but don't be scared away. better to be fully informed and act accordingly.
if you're buying remotely, post here for a pair of volunteer eyes to go over a car for you. many folks are happy to help with this sort of thing.
and enjoy the process! the journey of the hunt is part of the fun :-). it should be educaitonal, and informative.
doody! |
Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 9:22 am: | |
Thanks for all your advise & comment. I did realize some factors I wasn't even thinking of.
Do you all think even if I buy a car from Ferrari dealer, I should have PPI?
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Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
**** PPI ****
You want to do a PPI. Maybe if you're buying a $12K beat-to-hell barely-running car it's a waste, but otherwise it's an insurance exercise. You might have all the service records - you might not. There's really no for-sure way to know. Maybe the guy destroyed his exhaust system while offroading but didn't include that paperwork in the package. Maybe he had that work done by a different mechanic. Who knows. The PPI will tell you what exactly is right and wrong with the car. Most PPI mechanics appear to err on the side of caution and will point out TONS of stuff that is rather inconsequential (hmmm, a car with 15K miles and it has some road rash on the fron bumper - not actually surprising!), so make sure YOU make decisions based on the PPI with the PPI as guidance - don't let anybody else make your decisions. I've seen guys walk away from cars after an extremely-thorough PPI and in retrospect they've been bummed they missed that vehicle.
**** CARFAX ****
CarFax is a useful tool, but do not put much faith in it. Some states report well. Some do not. I know a guy with a 928GTS and at some point some moron in some state office or whatnot added a zero to his mileage, so now CarFax says the car has had its odometer tampered with (which is not true). And there's virtually no way to fix CarFax errors, apparently. very stupid. On my 355, CarFax says it's an F1 not a 6 Speed. It has one of the registrations from the previous owner listed, but not the other. I had a Jeep that had been in an accident about ten years ago - the accident never showed on the CarFax. So use that data at an arm's length.
doody. |
Chris F. (Dallasguy)
Junior Member
Username: Dallasguy
Post Number: 149
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 11:03 am: | |
I have run a CarFax on just about every car I have ever owned.
However, my current car had over $3000 in bodywork done a year ago this week due to a minor "accident". BUT, it never showed up on the CarFax. It was paid for by the other party's insuarance company and done through a local dealer so I would assume that it should appear. The same thing happened on my previous car. Same story, but still no CarFax.
Like Craig said, it might be good to help track down ownership history, mileage, etc, but certainly not the end-all of info on a car's past. |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member
Username: Craigfl
Post Number: 609
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
IMO, I would still want the PPI and CarFax since it's not that much extra cost to potentially gain more info on the car. If you check the archives here, you will find cases of cars being misrepresented with receipts as well as finding out about problems that another set of eyes might see. It is in your best interest to have copies of these receipts too. Carfax is not the "end-all" of information but may bring to light descrepancies in things like ownership and mileage.
Lastly, i wouldn't assume that that service done for a previous owner will be warranteed after the ownership change -- policies vary. |
adrian low (Audionut)
Junior Member
Username: Audionut
Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 9:26 am: | |
Yoshi,
A PPI done properly should be conducted by an INDEPENDENT, Ferrari-qualified mechanic. In other words, this mechanic should have no interest in the car, but has been/is a fully trained Ferrari mechanic. He will be looking for correct, authentic parts, condition of mechanicals, electricals, and cosmetics. He should also drive the car to see if there is an obvious problem/s.
YOu mentioned the car has service history, and can be verified by the garage. That ONLY proves the work, but does not give you any insight into the overall condition and authenticity of the car.
In my experience, my inspections were done by a man who worked for Ferrari Ontario for 26 years, and is very experienced with the cars I bought. He noticed things I would NEVER have, simply because I am not intimately knowledgeable with Ferraris, and also, he knows specific problems each model/year is known for. As a result, I went into the purchase with open eyes, and I can no decide on when I want to restore/fix as funds allow. Since he has no vested interest in the sale of the cars, he can tell me his PERSONAL OPINION, and I take it for what that's worth.
Yoshi, the PPI is the BEST $200 you can spend, but make sure you get a qualified, INDEPENDENT mechanic to do the work.
CarFax may be different. I am in Canada, so it does not apply as much. Other opinions?
BTW, we are really lucky to have great mechanics locally. I have been corresponding with Tom Bakowsky and he is TOPs! |
Tony Roberts (Pantera)
New member
Username: Pantera
Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 9:25 am: | |
Yoshi,
It's what they call due-diligence in the
business world! |
Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
New member
Username: Tiger_ace
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
I don't understand how CarFax or PPI works. What is advantages of doing these?
Say, I have an offer the owner says it is in excellent condition (and it looks good after test drive), and has all record of services, and I could verified these record by calling the provider & match the work with invoice/order/work number. If I could verify these record, a car should be in good condition, right? Normally these service is warranteed for 30-360 days depending on where you did, so I may be still covered under the previous service. Do I still need PPI? Looks to me the cost of PPI $200-300 is a waste when you know a car is well-serviced. Am I assuming too much?
What benefit CarFax gives me?
I am like a blind person on these subjects!!!
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