| Author |
Message |
Octavio Mestre (Alfab4308)
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 12:24 pm: | |
Martin, spoken like a wise married man! lol Amazing that the heartbreak from wrecking your Ferrari would be second only to having to explain to your wife the cost. |
Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 8:16 am: | |
The issue with "driving to the limit" is that unless you have a good deal of experience, you really have no idea where the limit lies, what it feels like, how the car will react, etc. It's not uncommon to see guys at drivers schools with very nice cars going very quickly, then they make one little mistake and all hell breaks loose because they don't have the experience to do the right things. Turn 3 at Summit Point is good for that - turn in too early and you'll need to make a correction mid-corner just as the camber changes for the worse. Seems like 1/2 the people I know spun there when they were learning.
I played with a BMW M3 on the track for a short time then bought a disposable RX7 to race and really learn how to drive. Now I can bring my Lotus Esprit to the track and really know what it means to run 8 or 9 tenths (it means "you will buy lots of tires and brake pads" so I've only done it once).
Mistakes happen when you're learning. You really want a roof over your head when they do.
Mike |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 3:59 am: | |
The logic behind that old way of racing was the driver, in a crash, would be safer if he flew out of the car, than to be squished if he were strapped in... |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2001 - 9:03 am: | |
We call them (from front to back) the A pillar, B pillar (the one you're talking about), C pillar, and so on, at rescue. The Ferrari only has an A&B, whereas a Suburban would have like A-D.
Racing a Spider reminds me of the days when guys didn't wear seat belts in those wide open cars and someone died like every second race. You could take a Spider out on the track, you just couldn't push it. I don't think I would want to really push any street Ferrari as it's a little bit expensive to crash. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2001 - 8:27 am: | |
Driving so hard that you could potentially flip is just not in the cards for a Spider. If you do flip you are toast!
If you survive you will be killed when you explain the condition of the car to your wife and then when you tell her that there was no insurance! ...forget about that gashing hole in your head from the accident! |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2001 - 8:25 am: | |
Matt;
I believe that is called the B-frame. The A-fame is the actual windshield frame. B is over the drivers head and the C-frame is in 4 door cars the rear part of the passenger cabin. I may be wrong though.
That B should have held up though. That is the true roll-over frame.
The only difference I see between the limit and racing is, during the race somebody´else may hit you and cause you to flip or crash. When you are driving hard on the limit it is you by yourself. Ends in the same result though if you lose it! |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 9:01 pm: | |
The car I destroyed at Bridgehampton coming out of turn 13 was a 348 tb. It did not have a cage in it, and I am the luckiest person to still be alive. The car was flat from the base of the windshield, up to the top of the A frame (I'm not sure that is what it is called, but whatever that arch of metal is behind your head). If you saw the car, you would never believe that someone escaped extremely serious injury or even death. So, it is my opinion, based on experience, that neither a tb or ts will offer sufficient rollover protection.
Wayne: Not racing, but driving it hard to the limit...other than words, is there really much of a difference? I only ask this, because when I was being put on the strecher, my answer to that question was - no. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 7:57 am: | |
I have never heard of any, except that as Matt said, if you hit something or end in the gravel sideways you can easily flip. The problem is that the car may break out on you and then you end up on the side or in a wall, which then causes problems.
You have to know where the limit is of your car. Flipping becasue you went to hard into a curve? I do not think so, but flipping in general, sure! |
Wayne Pope (Bosshog)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 6:29 am: | |
- joy riding on a race track
- not racing but driving hard to the limit
This is what I'd be using it for. Really though, the question was how strong is the 355 in standard trim. How strong is it? Does anyone have/know of a 355 being flipped?
thanks |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 9:51 am: | |
Rob,
I think that roll over cage is only for the Spider. The company may be able to offer you a GTS version though. Custom made?
Again, if you are a hobby driver just for fun, do not worry about the roll cage. That will have to be bolted into the frame on various points and will destroy some of your interior. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 9:48 am: | |
Maybe it gives us a better idea if you specify track as:
- racing in competition
- joy riding on a race track
- not racing but driving hard to the limit |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 8:23 am: | |
Wayne, check Forza magazine, I've seen some put in and take out roll cages for the 355. They wouldn't be anywhere close to legal for racing, but they may save your head from getting flatter. I think that might be what Matt was talking about. |
Wayne Pope (Bosshog)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 6:30 am: | |
Talking of roll over protection, how strong is a 355 GTB or GTS in a roll over situation. I've think of getting a GTS this winter (for next summer) and would definitly want to take it on the track. Are there addition rollover protection that can be fitted without loosing the 'everyday' usability?
Thanks |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 5:20 am: | |
That is what I am thinking. You can take your Spider to the track on a Ferrari event and just drive for pleasure. Learn the track and its tricks. Have some fun cornering and going for an a-pex. Just make sure not to push for the limit. Wrong thing to do.
I tracked my car in Sebring and had fun. The best thing is likely to take the school that is offered on most of the events. Shows you the in and outs of the track. There were lots of little things I would have done wrong if I would not have had the instructor to show the best way into the curve. Every track is different and has its characteristics.
In other words, if tracking means to you going to have fun driving the course, do it. Just not racing and not pushing! |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 12:18 am: | |
Dang it, I keep thinking of new things after I post...
I personally take the risk and track my 328. The happiest it's ever been and with me in it has been on the track. However, just be aware that there are risks.
After 3 days on the track at the FCA annual meet in Dallas, TX I didn't know of any incidents. There were a few spins and engine fires, but no contact or damage to cars. Motorsports Ranch is a pretty technical course too. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 12:12 am: | |
Just to add to my point some more... the personal risk you take is obvious without those safety mods, but the risk to your car is the difference between taking a rubber mallet to hammer out little dents in your race car vs. any little dent on your street Ferrari will make a big impact to the price. |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 9:31 pm: | |
Thanks Martin.
Yeah, its going to be very strange trading again tomorrow morning.
I was not far from the tragedy, but my wife and I are both fine - physically.
And to expound on Robs comments, (which I agree with) I would not track a car if there were not the safety modification which he mentioned. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 12:12 pm: | |
In the SCCA club race I was in yesterday a car spun 180 and the car behind it hit it head on... both cars were totaled. After doing both club racing and DE track events, I think the DE drivers are taking the most risk for both themselves and their cars. In club racing you have a full roll cage, 5 point harness, supportive racing seat, fire system, window net, cut off switch, and most flammable interior parts are removed from the car. Like the incident I explained above, that is almost as likely to happen in a DE event. Although you don't have the common "rubbing" in DE events, the major incidents are almost as likely to happen. Loss of control causing on course collisions with other cars and then off course excursions that sometimes end in roll-overs. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 10:41 am: | |
Paul is a puss, lol...
not at all Paul! I do not believe that there are many of us here that would risk their investment for a cheap but quick thrill.
Matt;
first good to hear you are okay. I think I speak for all, we were worried! Great to have you back.
I must agree with Matt in most respect. Spiders should really not be driven on races or anything close to max performance of the car. This will come back to Paul and me being a puss! Pushing for the limit means accepting ending in the gravel and watching F-1 we all know what that car do!
So true, a great driver is not made by the manufacturer. I would not take my street 348 and race it with Matt and the others in any event! That I consider suicide, neither do I or any street Ferrari stand a chance against his Challenge 355 or Willimas 512 that is set up for racing. Depending on character that may want you push harder and here comes the gravel and here flies your soal into Ferrari-Heaven! If you are bad off you will not have to worry about your insurance company anymore.
Not worth it to me, if you ask me, but nobody did.... |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 1:23 am: | |
A $300 ticket? I think in some places now (maybe NY and/or CA) anything over 100mph, you loose your license... |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 9:08 pm: | |
I participate in track events at Road Atlanta all the time both with the Panoz school and Ferrari Club . Spiders are allowed in the Touring group and while speed is limited to 100mph officially , you can scoot to 120mph or so occasionally. In the Expert group there is no speed limit and you can go as fast as you dare. I have had my TR up to 150mph indicated which is probably a true 135mph given the high error rate of all Ferrari road car speedometers. As far as insurance is concerned, you are covered as long as the track event is classified as a high performance "driving school" and not a "race". . Most insurance policies exclude coverage if you participate in an event is of " time or speed". |
paul s (Pes236)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 11:33 am: | |
i had thought about it but scared my insurance doesnt cover it - im sure we all have hit 100MPH plus on the local highway, then backed off so not to get a ticket $300 - so i wanted to try the track for the 160+ experience but the $300 risk might be worth it for 100 MPH but not the
$ 100,000+ risk of 160 - just my opinion - im a puss* |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 11:25 am: | |
160+ mph in the touring group? At Gingerman? Really?
Facts....
A. Ferrari's were meant to be driven fast. Not every driver was meant to be a fast driver.
B. Fast is a relative term.
C. Responsible driving is not something that the manufactures
can define, but if I were to take a crack at it, I would say going 125+ mph on a public highway is not responsible. Avoiding any type of deer, or poorly driven car, is extremely difficult at that speed.
D. Driving in the track in any run group, let alone the top run group is very dangerous. People die every year during club racing. Driving carefully, with great expertise does not preclude one from danger.
E. The factory suspension is tuned for road use. When I push any stock Ferrari on the track, it handles like a school bus. Stiffer springs, revalveing the shocks, lowering the car, balancing the car, adjusting the toeing, camber, caster etc....are needed for the car to respond proberly and predictibly. I have spanked everything from a 308 qv to a 333 sp, and everything inbetween, and have great respect for the difference between racing, and driving a car quickly.
A 355 Spyder is built for fun driving, and for safety reasons I would not test its limits.
JUST MY JADED OPINION |
fred hundt (Fhundt)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:50 pm: | |
I run my F355 Spider on the track monthly during summer here in Minnesota. I run with the touring group and love it, whether going 160+ down the straight or working my way through the curves. You can't tell me the F355 isn't designed for this. Just as when driving fast on the road, the car is a thing of beauty when driven in control, and dangerous when driven carelessly. |
Lawrence Michaels (Lxmichaels1)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 7:15 pm: | |
Matt,
Thanks for the clairity here and the jaded opinion is a good one.
I guess a TS is the best of both worlds. In any case a road car is a road car and a race car is a race car.
>>Larry |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 6:48 pm: | |
Spyders are not allowed to participate at Ferrari Club of America track events. The removable rollbar by Ultrasmith is an acceptable 'club solution' to this 'problem' (as long as your helmet does not extend higher than the rollbar). Really, the issue is not how many hours Ferrari has spent tuning these cars, (and if you are really serious about suspension setup, they are really only tuned for standard road performance) but personal safety. Even with the Ultrasmith setup, (which has an exceptionally high degee of craftsmanship), if a 550 Barchetta, 360 Spyder, 355 Spyder flips in a gravel trap, consider yourself DEAD! That simple.
I may sound a bit serious, but as a person who backed into a tire wall at 120 mph, and then ended up on its roof, I do not play with safety.
Street Ferraris should stay on the street. Prepared Ferrari race cars should scream around the track.
JUST MY JADED OPINION |
Lawrence Michaels (Lxmichaels1)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 3:56 pm: | |
Robert,
Take a look at Ultrasmith Systems Inc.
In New York.
www.ultrasmith.com
They make a removeable rollbar for the F355 Spider. They claim that with this you can participate in all types of events
>> Larry |
Martin (Miami348ts)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 3:18 pm: | |
Most tracks will let you go during Ferrari events but only in the Touring groups and never in a race. Not that we average folks ever want to do that! |
Robert R. (Multisync23)
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 3:01 pm: | |
I was given the opportunity to lap my 355 Spider around Portland International Raceway recently and had the time of my life. It was for the once-a-year Ferrari event here--the only time a true convertible (no rollover protection) is allowed on the course.
Is this true among tracks around the country? Are 348/355 Spiders not allowed? Ferrari spent thousands of hours tuning these cars for road courses, and it's tragic they can't be applied to that purpose by their owners. |
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